The story as I understand it

Washington · Jan 19, 2009

And a few questions.

1. God creates two humans who occupy a perfect, sin-free world.

2. Sin-free humans are deceived into making a wrong choice.

Q. A: In a perfect, sin-free world how could a wrong choice even be possible?

3. God is disgusted with the choice the humans have made and decides to punish them for it.

4. Not only does he visit this punishment on the two, but all their progeny to follow, Plus the rest on the animate world.

Q. B: Is it just to punish anyone or anything for something they had absolutely nothing to do with?

5. God allows this punishment to continue for a few thousand years where millions of humans are doomed to suffer a single eventuality: eternal punishment in hell.

6. After a time God decides to change the game, and issues a Get Out Of Jail Free card in the form of a personal savior. No retroactive option is provided any of the previous players.

7. Henceforth, anyone who is gets dealt this card and and plays it, may, at the discretion of god, be granted dispensation from hell. Those who never see the card (the ignorant) or find it seriously lacking in rational (the unconvinced) are sent to hell.

Q. C: Is innocent ignorance of the card justification for suffering the consequences of that ignorance?

Q. D: Is the failure to recognize the import of the card the fault of the student, or is it the consequence of deficient/inadequate instruction?

8. In effect, god

a: chose to make humans fallible through no individual fault of their own.

b: chose to use this fallibility as a means to send them to hell.

c: Ignores this fallibility when judging those who choose not to recognize his Get Out Of Jail Free card for what it is.

In effect, god is saying, "Yes I made everyone fallible, and for many of you this failing will send you to eternal suffering. But keep in mind: because I am a good, moral god who can only do good, the suffering you do is good.

Is this pretty much it or have I missed something here?

OphidiaPhile · Jan 19, 2009

Washington said:
And a few questions.

1. God creates two humans who occupy a perfect, sin-free world.

2. Sin-free humans are deceived into making a wrong choice.

Q. A: In a perfect, sin-free world how could a wrong choice even be possible?

3. God is disgusted with the choice the humans have made and decides to punish them for it.

4. Not only does he visit this punishment on the two, but all their progeny to follow, Plus the rest on the animate world.

Q. B: Is it just to punish anyone or anything for something they had absolutely nothing to do with?

5. God allows this punishment to continue for a few thousand years where millions of humans are doomed to suffer a single eventuality: eternal punishment in hell.

6. After a time God decides to change the game, and issues a Get Out Of Jail Free card in the form of a personal savior. No retroactive option is provided any of the previous players.

7. Henceforth, anyone who is gets dealt this card and and plays it, may, at the discretion of god, be granted dispensation from hell. Those who never see the card (the ignorant) or find it seriously lacking in rational (the unconvinced) are sent to hell.

Q. C: Is innocent ignorance of the card justification for suffering the consequences of that ignorance?

Q. D: Is the failure to recognize the import of the card the fault of the student, or is it the consequence of deficient/inadequate instruction?

8. In effect, god
a: chose to make humans fallible through no individual fault of their own.

b: chose to use this fallibility as a means to send them to hell.

c: Ignores this fallibility when judging those who choose not to recognize his Get Out Of Jail Free card for what it is.

In effect, god is saying, "Yes I made everyone fallible, and for many of you this failing will send you to eternal suffering. But keep in mind: because I am a good, moral god who can only do good, the suffering you do is good.

Is this pretty much it or have I missed something here?

This is what happens when ancient man tries to explain things they have no understanding of.

Zaac · Jan 19, 2009

Washington said:
And a few questions.

1. God creates two humans who occupy a perfect, sin-free world.

2. Sin-free humans are deceived into making a wrong choice.

Q. A: In a perfect, sin-free world how could a wrong choice even be possible?

In order to have the RIGHT choice, there has to be a wrong choice.

3. God is disgusted with the choice the humans have made and decides to punish them for it.

4. Not only does he visit this punishment on the two, but all their progeny to follow, Plus the rest on the animate world.

Q. B: Is it just to punish anyone or anything for something they had absolutely nothing to do with?

Yes it's a just punishment. Every sinner is punished for his own sin so you do have something to do with it.

5. God allows this punishment to continue for a few thousand years where millions of humans are doomed to suffer a single eventuality: eternal punishment in hell.

Hell is not eternal. The Lake of Fire is.

6. After a time God decides to change the game, and issues a Get Out Of Jail Free card in the form of a personal savior. No retroactive option is provided any of the previous players.

Nope. An All-Knowing God knew before man was created that man was going to need a Savior.

7. Henceforth, anyone who is gets dealt this card and and plays it, may, at the discretion of god, be granted dispensation from hell. Those who never see the card (the ignorant) or find it seriously lacking in rational (the unconvinced) are sent to hell.

Those who want the truth will find it. And ignorance of the law has never been an acceptable excuse. And finding something lacking rationale has never kept anyone out of hell.

[Q. C: Is innocent ignorance of the card justification for suffering the consequences of that ignorance?B]Q. D: Is the failure to recognize the import of the card the fault of the student, or is it the consequence of deficient/inadequate instruction?[/B]

Student's fault

8. In effect, god

a: chose to make humans fallible through no individual fault of their own.

God made men in His image. PERFECT Man chose to become imperfect.

b: chose to use this fallibility as a means to send them to hell.

God is HOLY. When man was without sin, Godcould walk in the GArden with sinless man. Because unsaved man is now unholy, a HOLY God demands a sacrifice. That sacrifice was paid by Jesus on the Cross. And the person who does not accept that gift to cover his OWN sin, chooses separation from God.

And as a just and HOLY God told Adam and Eve that they would surely die if they ate of a certain tree, it would have been unHOLY and unjust of Him to make Himself into a liar.

They were put out of the Garden because they were no longer perfect. And those who reject the saving blood of Jesus Christ as the payment for their sin will spend an eternity separated from a HOLY God.
c: Ignores this fallibility when judging those who choose not to recognize his Get Out Of Jail Free card for what it is.

In effect, god is saying, "Yes I made everyone fallible, and for many of you this failing will send you to eternal suffering. But keep in mind: because I am a good, moral god who can only do good, the suffering you do is good.

He didn't say that at all. What He said is that man screwed up. But because He loves us, He sent His only begotten Son so that whosever believeth in Him shall not perish but have everlasting life.

He says that He loves us so much that instead of sending us to eternal separation from Him, He provided a way for us to be redeemed from our sins and reconciled back to a Holy God as though we were as Holy and absent of sin as Adam and Eve once were.

Is this pretty much it or have I missed something here?

You got a lotttttttttt wrong.

HighwayMan · Jan 19, 2009

It is pretty much it, for the specific Biblical viewpoint you speak of. But you direct your anger with logistic problems towards a group for which these challenges are a cause of joy, for it gives them the opportunity to prove just how much they "have faith in God" no matter what anyone says or shows.

OphidiaPhile · Jan 19, 2009

Zaac said:
In order to have the RIGHT choice, there has to be a wrong choice.

Yes it's a just punishment. Every sinner is punished for his own sin so you do have something to do with it.

Hell is not eternal. The Lake of Fire is.

Nope. An All-Knowing God knew before man was created that man was going to need a Savior.

Those who want the truth will find it. And ignorance of the law has never been an acceptable excuse. And finding something lacking rationale has never kept anyone out of hell.

Q. C: Is innocent ignorance of the card justification for suffering the consequences of that ignorance?

Student's fault

God made men in His imageERFECT Man chose to become imperfect.

God is HOLY. When man was without sin, Godcould walk in the GArden with sinless man. Because unsaved man is now unholy, a HOLY God demands a sacrifice. That sacrifice was paid by Jesus on the Cross. And the person who does accept that gift to cover his OWN sin, chooses separation from God.

And as a just and HOLY God told Adam and Eve that they would surely die if they ate of a certain tree, it would have been unHOLY and unjust of Him to make Himself into a liar.

They were put out of the Garden because they were no longer perfect. And those who reject the saving blood of Jesus Christ as the payment for their sin will spend an eternity separated from a HOLY God.
c: Ignores this fallibility when judging those who choose not to recognize his Get Out Of Jail Free card for what it is.

He didn't say that at all. What He said is that man screwed up. But because He loves us, He sendt His only begotten Son so that whosever believeth in Him shall not perish but have everlasting life.

He says that He loves us so much that instead of sending us to eternal separation from Him, He provided a way for us to be redeemed from our sins and reconciled back to a Holy God as though we were as Holy and absent of sin as Adam and Eve once were.

You got a lotttttttttt wrong.

Sounds like a poorly written novel.

Inviolable · Jan 19, 2009

Is this pretty much it or have I missed something here?

No, you got it wrong.
I'll fix it for ya but before I do I was wondering if the post was in response to another poster or Christian you disagree with?

Washington said:
And a few questions.
1. God creates two humans who occupy a perfect, sin-free world.

First off I use to get this question a lot and then I stopped using the word "perfect"
Define perfect.

The garden of Eden is described as a paradise, it's not really described as a finished product and it's also separate from the people living in it.
Meaning it only effected people through providing them with food and shelter.
Like a hunter gatherer type of setting.
A nice valley with plenty to eat laying about, nothing more.

2. Sin-free humans are deceived into making a wrong choice.

Sounds about right.

Q. A: In a perfect, sin-free world how could a wrong choice even be possible?

Click to expand...

Answered

3. God is disgusted with the choice the humans have made and decides to punish them for it.

I'll go with that but change the word disgust to disappointed.

4. Not only does he visit this punishment on the two, but all their progeny to follow, Plus the rest on the animate world.

Bible just describes the "garden" itself not the entire world. Adam and Eve get kicked out of it so you're left to assume the rest of the world was as it is now. But the rest of humanity does suffer the same fate of not bheing able to revist Eden.

Q. B: Is it just to punish anyone or anything for something they had absolutely nothing to do with?

We all share the same emotions, it's described in the bible as God knew if Adam and Eve sinned everyone to follow them would sin as well.
We're all human.
Basic gist.

5. God allows this punishment to continue for a few thousand years where millions of humans are doomed to suffer a single eventuality: eternal punishment in hell.

Not everyone goes to hell. People had the same free will they have now and were able to choose God then as now but without Jesus stepping in.
It was a matter of different practices.

6. After a time God decides to change the game, and issues a Get Out Of Jail Free card in the form of a personal savior. No retroactive option is provided any of the previous players.

He simply made it easier.

7. Henceforth, anyone who is gets dealt this card and and plays it, may, at the discretion of god, be granted dispensation from hell. Those who never see the card (the ignorant) or find it seriously lacking in rational (the unconvinced) are sent to hell.

Not entirely. Not everyone who hasn't accepted the gift does go to hell.
The bible gives a quick run down and explains that God knows everyone's heart. Basically decides if you have or haven't had the chance to get to know him and then decides if you would or would not have worshiped him.
Simplest terms, it's best to know Jesus before you die.

Q. C: Is innocent ignorance of the card justification for suffering the consequences of that ignorance?

Answered

Q. D: Is the failure to recognize the import of the card the fault of the student, or is it the consequence of deficient/inadequate instruction?

Depends. Are you taking another persons word for it or Gods?

8. In effect, god
a: chose to make humans fallible through no individual fault of their own.

b: chose to use this fallibility as a means to send them to hell.

c: Ignores this fallibility when judging those who choose not to recognize his Get Out Of Jail Free card for what it is.

In effect, god is saying, "Yes I made everyone fallible, and for many of you this failing will send you to eternal suffering. But keep in mind: because I am a good, moral god who can only do good, the suffering you do is good.

Pride effects everyone differently. If Christians every where never tried to sell Christianity the above statement would probably be completely different and in the form of a passive pandering for acknowledgment.

Washington · Jan 19, 2009

Zaac said:
In order to have the RIGHT choice, there has to be a wrong choice.

Obviously, but why did god permit such an entity corrupt his perfect world with the option of a wrong choice? Evidently this perfect world was nowhere near perfect at all. In fact, what was the idea of even creating evil in the first place? And then putting knowledge of it in the form of a tree in the garden? Obviously he was setting up A&E to fail. Putting the tree there, putting the serpent there, and allowing the serpent to deceive A&E. Hardly a loving thing to do in my opinion.

"Plus the rest on the animate world."

The evident brutality that infuses the whole animal kingdom, which many Christians claim did not exist until after the fall.

Yes it's a just punishment. Every sinner is punished for his own sin so you do have something to do with it.

You've gotten ahead of yourself. Before one can commit a sinful act he has to have the capacity to sin. It's this capacity that is the punishment.

Hell is not eternal. The Lake of Fire is.

Pedantry doesn't impress.

Nope. An All-Knowing God knew before man was created that man was going to need a Savior.

So why the silly charade with A&E, complete with his phony disgust. And why wait so long before dealing the Get Out Of Jail Free card?

Those who want the truth will find it.

You can drop the trite Sunday school phrases.

And ignorance of the law has never been an acceptable excuse.

Gee, in this case one would certainly think so. How did god expect these people to obey the "law" if there was no way of knowing such a law existed or where to go to find it? Did you know you were in violation of the Klingon law of reverse introphase? Too bad because as punishment all your teeth will fall out tonight. Sound fair to you? It must because ignorance of the law has never been an acceptable excuse.

Student's fault

Of course, because if it wasn't the whole ethic of Christian responsibility would fall on its face. Can't blame the idiot preacher down the block who can't put three sentences together without including a double negative and seven "ums." Nah, the responsibility has to be the students because all of god's spokesmen are sooo competent. After all, all that's needed is to place a Bible in front of a person and he will automatically believe, because that's all it should take. :doh:

God made men in His image. PERFECT Man chose to become imperfect.

Bumper sticker slogans don't impress.

He didn't say that at all. What He said is that man screwed up.

But god made him in such a way that he had to "screw up." Remember what you said above? "An All-Knowing God knew before man was created that man was going to need a Savior." Doesn't really give man any choice at all does it. Man's destiny was set before Adam ever saw Eve. If you do what you're destined to do you can hardly be said to screw up for doing just that. You did exactly what was expected of you.

Inviolable said:
No, you got it wrong.
I'll fix it for ya but before I do I was wondering if the post was in response to another poster or Christian you disagree with?

Not at all.

First off I use to get this question a lot and then I stopped using the word "perfect"
Define perfect.
The garden of Eden is described as a paradise, it's not really described as a finished product and it's also separate from the people living in it.
Meaning it only effected people through providing them with food and shelter.
Like a hunter gatherer type of setting.
A nice valley with plenty to eat laying about, nothing more.

That may be your perception of it, but others have said it was a perfect existence, which where I got the term from.

Bible just describes the "garden" itself not the entire world. Adam and Eve get kicked out of it so you're left to assume the rest of the world was as it is now. But the rest of humanity does suffer the same fate of not bheing able to revist Eden.

As I pointed out above, quite a few Christians believe in a fang-less lion before the fall. I'll leave it to you Christians to iron out the point.

We all share the same emotions, it's described in the bible as God knew if Adam and Eve sinned everyone to follow them would sin as well.
We're all human.
Basic gist.

Obviously this was the game then. In his little charade god purposely put the tree in the garden so A&E could eat of it and usher in a reason to put them and all their descendants in hell. The whole scenario is pretty goofy if you ask me. Why all the bother?

Not entirely. Not everyone who hasn't accepted the gift does go to hell.
The bible gives a quick run down and explains that God knows everyone's heart. Basically decides if you have or haven't had the chance to get to know him and then decides if you would or would not have worshiped him.
Simplest terms, it's best to know Jesus before you die.

Well a lot of people don't think this is enough. To be saved from hell ya got to be reborn in Christ, or some such thing. Being a good guy just isn't going to cut it.

Depends. Are you taking another persons word for it or Gods?

Barring a voice from the sky all we have are the words of other people. Either their written words or spoken ones. That some assert a particular written word is actually god's is nothing but an unsubstantiated claim, which carries no more credibility than if my barber had said it.

CreedIsChrist · Jan 19, 2009

OphidiaPhile said:
Sounds like a poorly written novel.

actually zach wrote a pretty good summary of the atonement.

I do laugh at the OP when it says "innocent ignorance"..as if there was such a thing..

I do think its honorable for the OP to ask these questions. It shows she is looking for truth in some way(at least I hope that is the intention of the OP and not some sort of justification of atheism)

RealDealNeverstop · Jan 19, 2009

Washington said:
Q. A: In a perfect, sin-free world how could a wrong choice even be possible?

Stop equating "Perfect" with "Bad choices are not possible." It is only in an imperfect world where choice does not exist. If no posssible choice can have dire consequences then there is no true choice.

Q. B: Is it just to punish anyone or anything for something they had absolutely nothing to do with?

Don't take consequences personally because they are not.

Q. C: Is innocent ignorance of the card justification for suffering the consequences of that ignorance?

Actually, this falls on your ignorance. Scripture states those who are unaware of Christ are judged based on the knowledge they do possess.

Q. D: Is the failure to recognize the import of the card the fault of the student, or is it the consequence of deficient/inadequate instruction?

Same as above.

8. In effect, god

a: chose to make humans fallible through no individual fault of their own.

b: chose to use this fallibility as a means to send them to hell.

c: Ignores this fallibility when judging those who choose not to recognize his Get Out Of Jail Free card for what it is.

In effect, god is saying, "Yes I made everyone fallible, and for many of you this failing will send you to eternal suffering. But keep in mind: because I am a good, moral god who can only do good, the suffering you do is good.

Is this pretty much it or have I missed something here?

You're missing quite a few theological points. It looks like you're intentionally taking aspects of the creation and fall of human stories to paint Christianity as some sort of global masochistic organization with the head honcho being a sadist.

Honestly, at this point I can't tell if the OP is a bait and switch or if there is a sincere ontological search of Christianity. Iam not, by many Western standards a "traditional" Christian because I go by what Christ said, and not what power tripping freaks have claimed Christ said. Ie. Jesus never once said "Accept me and all your sins are forgiven." That is The Theology of the Lazy Jesus. Christ clearly stated our forgiveness from God is wholly dependent upon our forgiveness of others. But, that would require a lot of work so some Christian camps write false bibles and preach an imaginary Jesus because self-righteous soap box preaching is not only carte-blanche, but it requires no true sacrifice.

MethodMan · Jan 19, 2009

Washington said:
And a few questions.

1. God creates two humans who occupy a perfect, sin-free world.

2. Sin-free humans are deceived into making a wrong choice.

Q. A: In a perfect, sin-free world how could a wrong choice even be possible?

ARQ - Why? Choice - God created us with the ability to live sin free - we did not - still don't.

3. God is disgusted with the choice the humans have made and decides to punish them for it.

4. Not only does he visit this punishment on the two, but all their progeny to follow, Plus the rest on the animate world.

Q. B: Is it just to punish anyone or anything for something they had absolutely nothing to do with?

False Premise

5. God allows this punishment to continue for a few thousand years where millions of humans are doomed to suffer a single eventuality: eternal punishment in hell.

6. After a time God decides to change the game, and issues a Get Out Of Jail Free card in the form of a personal savior. No retroactive option is provided any of the previous players.

How do you know that?

7. Henceforth, anyone who is gets dealt this card and and plays it, may, at the discretion of god, be granted dispensation from hell. Those who never see the card (the ignorant) or find it seriously lacking in rational (the unconvinced) are sent to hell.

Q. C: Is innocent ignorance of the card justification for suffering the consequences of that ignorance?

But that is not the case. All are without excuse.

Q. D: Is the failure to recognize the import of the card the fault of the student, or is it the consequence of deficient/inadequate instruction?

Click to expand...

I didn't find the instruction Book to difficult to understand. Ever read it?

8. In effect, god

a: chose to make humans fallible through no individual fault of their own.

False

b: chose to use this fallibility as a means to send them to hell.

False

c: Ignores this fallibility when judging those who choose not to recognize his Get Out Of Jail Free card for what it is.

See, a false summary based on to fasle premises.

In effect, god is saying, "Yes I made everyone fallible, and for many of you this failing will send you to eternal suffering. But keep in mind: because I am a good, moral god who can only do good, the suffering you do is good.

And that's why he sent His Son. He does not want you in Hell at all.

Is this pretty much it or have I missed something here?

Obviously!

jayem · Jan 19, 2009

God has to at least share some of the responsibility for man's fall. He created us with the ability to sin, he put Adam and Eve in a position to sin, and he allowed them to be tempted. As one poster said, God had also provided for a saviour. So logically, God knew exactly what would happen all along. The whole thing was planned from the get-go.

An analogy: I know my son has a propensity to play with matches. I tell him sternly not to do it, and that he'll be punished if he does. But then I leave him with a huge box of matches right in middle of his playroom. I even let the bratty kid down the street tell him how much fun it is to start a fire, and that nothing bad will really happen to him if he does. So when the little pyro burns the whole block down, is there any court in the world that wouldn't also hold me responsible?

RealDealNeverstop · Jan 19, 2009

jayem said:
God has to at least share some of the responsibility for man's fall. He created us with the ability to sin, he put Adam and Eve in a position to sin, and he allowed them to be tempted. As one poster said, God had also provided for a saviour. So logically, God knew exactly what would happen all along. The whole thing was planned from the get-go.

Being omniscient doesn't equate to control. God being aware X is going to happen doesn't mean God caused X.

An analogy: I know my son has a propensity to play with matches. I tell him sternly not to do it, and that he'll be punished if he does. But then I leave him with a huge box of matches right in middle of his playroom. I even let the bratty kid down the street tell him how much fun it is to start a fire, and that nothing bad will really happen to him if he does. So when the little pyro burns the whole block down, is there any court in the world that wouldn't also hold me responsible?

Where's the analogy? You can't compare a child to adults. Even our courts make that distinction.

Jane_the_Bane · Jan 19, 2009

RealDealNeverstop said:
Being omniscient doesn't equate to control. God being aware X is going to happen doesn't mean God caused X.

Actually, it kinda does. Just think about it:

You KNOW that a certain bus will crash into a bunch of waiting schoolkids at exactly 11:23AM, as the driver will be distracted by a fly at that very moment.
You also have the power to prevent that event, by means both natural and supernatural - it needn't even include any interference with the choices of the individuals involved.
Now, even if you DO decide to do nothing, for whatever reason, it's STILL (at least partially) your fault that the bus crashed into the children. Letting things happen knowingly while having the power to prevent them makes you responsible. You facilitated the event by means of inaction.

Where's the analogy? You can't compare a child to adults. Even our courts make that distinction.

What Adam and Eve lacked was knowledge of good and evil. They literally did not have the capacity to distinguish between a good choice and an evil choice, regardless of God's warning. In this, they were pretty much like children, who at first have little grasp of why their parents would want them to refrain from certain actions, and can't fathom the consequences even if threatened with severe punishments.

RealDealNeverstop · Jan 19, 2009

Jane_the_Bane said:
Actually, it kinda does. Just think about it:

You KNOW that a certain bus will crash into a bunch of waiting schoolkids at exactly 11:23AM, as the driver will be distracted by a fly at that very moment.
You also have the power to prevent that event, by means both natural and supernatural - it needn't even include any interference with the choices of the individuals involved.
Now, even if you DO decide to do nothing, for whatever reason, it's STILL (at least partially) your fault that the bus crashed into the children. Letting things happen knowingly while having the power to prevent them makes you responsible. You facilitated the event by means of inaction.

Inaction is not equitable to causation or culpability. This isn't the series finale of Seinfeld (smiely.) You could try to argue being aware mandates a moral responsibility but that is assuming a relationship of human extrapolation onto the ontology of God.

What Adam and Eve lacked was knowledge of good and evil. They literally did not have the capacity to distinguish between a good choice and an evil choice, regardless of God's warning. In this, they were pretty much like children, who at first have little grasp of why their parents would want them to refrain from certain actions, and can't fathom the consequences even if threatened with severe punishments.

Knowledge about Good and Evil is not a necessary condition for knowing right from wrong. They clearly understood the difference between right and wrong...which is why they tried to hide after making the wrong choice of disobeying God.

CreedIsChrist · Jan 19, 2009

Honestly, at this point I can't tell if the OP is a bait and switch or if there is a sincere ontological search of Christianity. Iam not, by many Western standards a "traditional" Christian because I go by what Christ said, and not what power tripping freaks have claimed Christ said. Ie. Jesus never once said "Accept me and all your sins are forgiven." That is The Theology of the Lazy Jesus. Christ clearly stated our forgiveness from God is wholly dependent upon our forgiveness of others. But, that would require a lot of work so some Christian camps write false bibles and preach an imaginary Jesus because self-righteous soap box preaching is not only carte-blanche, but it requires no true sacrifice

Again incorrect because you are confusing the atonement of Christ, if what you said is true then Christ would not need to die on a Cross:

Then whoever calls on the name of the Lord will be saved.' - Acts 2:21

for "WHOEVER WILL CALL ON THE NAME OF THE LORD WILL BE SAVED - Romans 10:13

I am the gate. If anyone enters through me, he will be saved. He will come in and go out and find pasture - John 10:9

Whoever believes and is baptized will be saved, but whoever doesn't believe will be condemned. - Mark 16:16

"Of Him all the prophets bear witness that through His name everyone who believes in Him receives forgiveness of sins." (Acts 10:43)

"In Him we have redemption through His blood, the forgiveness of our trespasses, according to the riches of His grace." (Eph.1:7)

Shall we continue in sin that grace may abound? God forbid. How shall we that are dead to sin, live any longer therein? Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin....for sin shall not have dominion over you, for you are not under law but under grace.What then, shall we sin because we are not under the law but under grace? God forbid.

But I want you to know that the Son of Man has authority on earth to forgive sins." - Luke 5:24

If we make it our habit to confess our sins, in his faithful righteousness he forgives us for those sins and cleanses us from all unrighteousness. - 1 John 1:9

who gave Himself for us to redeem us from every lawless deed, and to purify for Himself a people for His own possession, zealous for good deeds - Titus 2:14

who gave Himself as a ransom for all, the testimony given at the proper time - 1 Timothy 2:6

just as the Son of Man did not come to be served, but to serve, and to give His life a ransom for many - Matthew 20:28

and from Jesus Christ, the faithful witness, the firstborn of the dead, and the ruler of the kings of the earth. To Him who loves us and released us from our sins by His blood - Revelation 1:5

Our forgiveness of others are the fruits of having grace. But grace comes from God through Jesus Christ and no amount of effort can make one "earn that". It is the gift of God(and a gift dosen't put any pre-conditions on it otherwise it ceases to be a gift)

Jane_the_Bane · Jan 19, 2009

RealDealNeverstop said:
Knowledge about Good and Evil is not a necessary condition for knowing right from wrong. They clearly understood the difference between right and wrong...which is why they tried to hide after making the wrong choice of disobeying God.

They tried to hide AFTER they gained knowledge of good and evil.

RealDealNeverstop · Jan 19, 2009

CreedIsChrist said:
Again incorrect because you are confusing the atonement of Christ, if what you said is true then Christ would not need to die on a Cross:

Christ had to die on the Cross for prophecy to be fulfilled but some confuse that as evidence their view of Salvation must be correct, otherwise Jesus wouldn't have been Crucified. It was prophesized that during Jesus' arrest he would be caught with criminals...hence Jesus said to get a sword. Never before nor after that moment did Jesus ever promote wielding the sword, but he did so that a prophecy may be fulfilled. But, some people make the mistake of citing that Luke verse to justify using violence, a lot like some cherry pick verses to justify their definition of Salvation. That is how the Nicene Creed came about...over 300 years after the Crucifixion.

Then whoever calls on the name of the Lord will be saved.' - Acts 2:21

for "WHOEVER WILL CALL ON THE NAME OF THE LORD WILL BE SAVED - Romans 10:13

I am the gate. If anyone enters through me, he will be saved. He will come in and go out and find pasture - John 10:9

Whoever believes and is baptized will be saved, but whoever doesn't believe will be condemned. - Mark 16:16

"Of Him all the prophets bear witness that through His name everyone who believes in Him receives forgiveness of sins." (Acts 10:43)

"In Him we have redemption through His blood, the forgiveness of our trespasses, according to the riches of His grace." (Eph.1:7)

Shall we continue in sin that grace may abound? God forbid. How shall we that are dead to sin, live any longer therein? Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin....for sin shall not have dominion over you, for you are not under law but under grace.What then, shall we sin because we are not under the law but under grace? God forbid.

But I want you to know that the Son of Man has authority on earth to forgive sins." - Luke 5:24

If we make it our habit to confess our sins, in his faithful righteousness he forgives us for those sins and cleanses us from all unrighteousness. - 1 John 1:9

who gave Himself for us to redeem us from every lawless deed, and to purify for Himself a people for His own possession, zealous for good deeds - Titus 2:14

who gave Himself as a ransom for all, the testimony given at the proper time - 1 Timothy 2:6

just as the Son of Man did not come to be served, but to serve, and to give His life a ransom for many - Matthew 20:28

and from Jesus Christ, the faithful witness, the firstborn of the dead, and the ruler of the kings of the earth. To Him who loves us and released us from our sins by His blood - Revelation 1:5

It's fairly easy to try and justify any position when verses are cherry picked and re-organized into a new bible.

Our forgiveness of others are the fruits of having grace. But grace comes from God through Jesus Christ and no amount of effort can make one "earn that". It is the gift of God(and a gift dosen't put any pre-conditions on it otherwise it ceases to be a gift)

I never claimed Salvation can "be earned" so let's not go all strawmen crazy so early in the discussion. Grace does come through Christ but that doesn't equate to proving the Theology of the Lazy Jesus.

Braunwyn · Jan 19, 2009

RealDealNeverstop said:
Iam not, by many Western standards a "traditional" Christian because I go by what Christ said, and not what power tripping freaks have claimed Christ said. Ie. Jesus never once said "Accept me and all your sins are forgiven." That is The Theology of the Lazy Jesus. Christ clearly stated our forgiveness from God is wholly dependent upon our forgiveness of others. But, that would require a lot of work so some Christian camps write false bibles and preach an imaginary Jesus because self-righteous soap box preaching is not only carte-blanche, but it requires no true sacrifice.

Well said. You have such a solid grasp of personal responsibility. It's refreshing.

Jane_the_Bane said:
Actually, it kinda does. Just think about it:

You KNOW that a certain bus will crash into a bunch of waiting schoolkids at exactly 11:23AM, as the driver will be distracted by a fly at that very moment.
You also have the power to prevent that event, by means both natural and supernatural - it needn't even include any interference with the choices of the individuals involved.

Now, even if you DO decide to do nothing, for whatever reason, it's STILL (at least partially) your fault that the bus crashed into the children. Letting things happen knowingly while having the power to prevent them makes you responsible. You facilitated the event by means of inaction.

What Adam and Eve lacked was knowledge of good and evil. They literally did not have the capacity to distinguish between a good choice and an evil choice, regardless of God's warning. In this, they were pretty much like children, who at first have little grasp of why their parents would want them to refrain from certain actions, and can't fathom the consequences even if threatened with severe punishments.

Excellent point, Jane, as usual.

jayem · Jan 19, 2009

RealDealNeverstop said:
Being omniscient doesn't equate to control. God being aware X is going to happen doesn't mean God caused X .

But if God knows something bad will happen, and allows it, even when he has the power to stop it, then he shares responsibility. Refraining from acting implies assent. That's my point.

RealDealNeverstop said:
Where's the analogy? You can't compare a child to adults. Even our courts make that distinction.

The analogy is that if a superior moral agent (an adult, or God) creates a situation where he knows that a lesser moral agent (a child, or man) will make a bad choice with bad consequences, and, he allows the bad choice to be made, then the higher moral agent must also take responsibility. A version of the respondeat superior doctrine in law.

RealDealNeverstop said:
You could try to argue being aware mandates a moral responsibility but that is assuming a relationship of human extrapolation onto the ontology of God.

Well that's the only way around the dilemma. You have to say God isn't responsible because he's God. But you're also making an assumption here-- that God can't be comprehended or judged by human standards. You absolve God of any responsibility for the fall because you define him as above human morality. That's how Judeo-Christian doctrine has always answered difficult questions about God. Do you think it's a satisfactory answer?

CreedIsChrist · Jan 19, 2009

you said

Christ clearly stated our forgiveness from God is wholly dependent upon our forgiveness of others

While our salvation does have fruits that include the forgiveness of others it is not WHOLLY dependent on that. That is what Im bringing up. You can't bring up any teaching of Christ and say salvation is wholly dependent on that while ignoring everything else. These are all the commands and teachings of Christ, the parables, the forgiveness of others, the Sermon on the Mount, the Passion, etc. All of these coincide with the fruits and graces of the Spirit that we receive unto our salvation.

The story as I understand it

Well-Known Member

Well-Known Member

Well-Known Member

Well-Known Member

Well-Known Member

Well-Known Member

Well-Known Member

Well-Known Member

Is Prayer Your First or Last Action?

Legend

Naturalist

Is Prayer Your First or Last Action?

Gaia's godchild

Is Prayer Your First or Last Action?

Well-Known Member

Gaia's godchild

Is Prayer Your First or Last Action?

Braunwyn

Guest

Naturalist

Well-Known Member

Similar threads