God is GOOD...not bad.

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pinetree

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Only if you consider their acts in isolation. If you see their acts as something that God allowed/caused to happen, would you still call it evil?
sure...

It is evil to torture someone.

It was carried out by evil people.
 
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God is a jealous God, and one with wrath, but that is all in according what LOVE is

no one is calling God evil, because He is not, what I am asking is do not you see something is wrong with what we or others are saying and believing, I suck at words, i cannot seem to write what I mean, but it comes off as God is some sort of part in our pain and suffering, as if He wants it on us, that is how ya guys come off

with what this thread says, and what people have said, you may not see it yourselves, but your words just say what you believe, its honestly saddening, I know I am not perfect, and should not be debating like this or taking it personal and the like, however, Im sorry to say, what some of you teach and say is the truth, well if your right so be it, however its utter crap, if that is what you see in God, act like that around everyone, and do that to people,

come on, cant you see what you type, its written and speaks for itself, God causes and wants you to suffer, that is what is here! I cannot write it as I want, but its the message and essence that is given off, im sorry I dont care if you say it doesnt, thats there, other people see it, I see it..lol
Well it depends how you look at it...trials and tribulations are given by God and they may not always be plesant. You say he doesn't want us to suffer yet he allowed satan to inflict Job something shocking...do you think he wanted to see job suffer? probably not but it suited his purposes though.

The fish that swallowed Jonah...probably not a pleasant experience either but God still caused it to happen in order to teach Jonah a lesson....
 
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FrankFaith

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What the heck happened here?!

Does anyone remember the OP?

Are there any Mods on this forum anymore? Or are the mods still just shutting down those who stand up for truth and call blasphemy, "blaspemy"?! Obviously they aren't...uh...MODERATING! I grab a few hours of shuteye and this is what we wind up with?!

Just shoot me. ;)
 
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pinetree

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What the heck happened here?!

Does anyone remember the OP?

Are there any Mods on this forum anymore? Or are the mods still just shutting down those who stand up for truth and call blasphemy, "blaspemy"?! Obviously they aren't...uh...MODERATING! I grab a few hours of shuteye and this is what we wind up with?!

Just shoot me. ;)
It is not wise to try to shoot an armed man..;):D
 
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FrankFaith

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Let's step back and take a look at the two possibles that we have come up with so far:

1. Daniel's son
2. Miriam

Two possible cases where God specifically targetted His children for affliction with sickness or disease for the purpose of teaching or chastisement. From the standpoint of someone who does not know or believe that God is good, I can see how this might be proof that God has done this in these two cases.

However, these same faithless unbelievers (I hope that truth isn't offensive) must also conceed that it is possible that, at least in the case of Miriam, that the law of sowing and reaping could be at play. In the case of Daniel's son, it is also possible that the sins of the father (Daniel) have been visited upon the son. Actually, this is painfully obvious--which doesn't necessarily take away from what is also obvious to a faithless unbeliever, which is that God specifically targetted the child for affliction with sickness or disease for the purpose of teaching or chastisement. Oh--wait...that may not be the case either. What was being taught/who was chastised through this event? Or was it the law of sowing and reaping in effect?

So the score, if generously observed, is

Opposition to the OP: 2 possible
Events in accordance with the OP: Never been any.

So, the opposition bases its entire belief system of God using sickness and disease to teach us (which is the reason they say God cann't be depended upon to heal today through faith) upon two flimsy-supported events in the old testiment.

Nice.
 
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pinetree

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So is God, who sent His Son to die this way evil?;)

That is my point...it's relative to God.

Lol,you are most creative...:D

However,if something is relative,there must be 2 points of a situation or a location..

Or there would be no relativity....

Soooooo

It would still mean that the act of the men was evil in God"s eyes,because scripture says they were evil men that did the task of torture.

It confirms that God afflicts,like he did Job and Paul too...by the devil,who we know is evil..

Or certainly allows..uses evil...

All by a sovereign God who created Adam with the ability to sin...to do evil...

LOL.we can go crazy thinking about this too long!:D
 
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FrankFaith

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Let's step back and take a look at the two possibles that we have come up with so far:

1. Daniel's son
2. Miriam

Two possible cases where God specifically targetted His children for affliction with sickness or disease for the purpose of teaching or chastisement. From the standpoint of someone who does not know or believe that God is good, I can see how this might be proof that God has done this in these two cases.

However, these same faithless unbelievers (I hope that truth isn't offensive) must also conceed that it is possible that, at least in the case of Miriam, that the law of sowing and reaping could be at play. In the case of Daniel's son, it is also possible that the sins of the father (Daniel) have been visited upon the son. Actually, this is painfully obvious--which doesn't necessarily take away from what is also obvious to a faithless unbeliever, which is that God specifically targetted the child for affliction with sickness or disease for the purpose of teaching or chastisement. Oh--wait...that may not be the case either. What was being taught/who was chastised through this event? Or was it the law of sowing and reaping in effect?

So the score, if generously observed, is

Opposition to the OP: 2 possible
Events in accordance with the OP: Never been any.

So, the opposition bases its entire belief system of God using sickness and disease to teach us (which is the reason they say God cann't be depended upon to heal today through faith) upon two flimsy-supported events in the old testiment.

Nice.

...whoops--I just posted that. Sorry!
 
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Yekcidmij

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For one thing, God wasn't even there. He had already left, then, when the cloud left the top of the tent, she had lepracy. Nowhere does it say that God put it on her. This seems like a sowing and reaping type event to me.

The bottom line is that scripture doesn't say that God put it on her. If He had, it would have been the first--and the last time--that this had happened!


Well, that's twice now you have just been dismissive. Mariam was leprous as part of God's judgment on her for stirring up rebellion against Moses. It was the Lords "anger" that burned against them.

You are basically incapable of reading literature at the lowest level.

And it is a sowing reaping type of event. Mariam sowed rebellion against Moses and reaped judgment in the form of becoming leprous. A judgment obviously given by God in Numbers 12.

So we have Ezekiel talking about God sending famine and plague (which is a small part of the matter) and we have God making Mariam become leprous because of rebellion against Moses.

Then there is Hosea 6:1

Come, let us return to the LORD.
For He has torn us,
but He will heal us;
He has wounded us,
but He will bandage us.


Hosea says Yahweh had "torn" Israel, but that He would eventually "heal" Israel. Now what is Yahweh going to "heal" Israel from? His own judgment against His people. A judgment HE Himself had pronounced:

Isaiah 6:9 He said, “Go and tell these people:
‘Listen continually, but don’t understand!
Look continually, but don’t perceive!’
6:10 Make the hearts of these people calloused;
make their ears deaf and their eyes blind!
Otherwise they might see with their eyes and hear with their ears,
their hearts might understand and they might repent and be healed.”


God has judged His people and made them "blind" and "deaf". Later in Isaiah we find that God's judgment had taken effect:

29:9 You will be shocked and amazed!
You are totally blind!
They are drunk, but not because of wine;
they stagger, but not because of beer.
29:10 For the Lord has poured out on you
a strong urge to sleep deeply.
He has shut your eyes (the prophets),
and covered your heads (the seers).

The were blind and staggering like drunkards; and it was God's own judgment that caused it. Even though it was His judgment, He promises to reverse it:

35:4 Tell those who panic
“Be strong! Do not fear!
Look, your God comes to avenge!
With divine retribution he comes to deliver you.”
35:5 Then blind eyes will open,
deaf ears will hear.
35:6 Then the lame will leap like a deer,
the mute tongue will shout for joy;
for water will flow in the desert,
streams in the wilderness

Here God promises to reverse the conditions on His people (conditions rendered by Him in Isaiah 6). Here the judgments that will be reversed are "blindness", "deafness", and "lameness". Isaiah will continue to explain the condition of the people of God as in their condition due to His own decree. Isaiah does say that God's punishment will eventually be completed and reversed though:

40:2 “Speak kindly to Jerusalem, and tell her
that her time of warfare is over,
that her punishment is completed.
For the Lord has made her pay double for all her sins.”

Isaiah still think though that the condition of Israel at the time is due to judgment from God and he will continue to allude to the blindness and deafness of God's people that was administered by God in Isaiah 6:

40:21 Do you not know?
Do you not hear?
Has it not been told to you since the very beginning?
Have you not understood from the time the earth’s foundations were made?

43:8 Bring out the people who are blind, even though they have eyes,
those who are deaf, even though they have ears!

If at this point there is still any doubt as to the cause of Israel's condition, Isaiah still thinks it was judgment from God:

43:27 The father of your nation sinned;
your spokesmen rebelled against me.
43:28 So I defiled your holy princes,
and handed Jacob over to destruction,
and subjected Israel to humiliating abuse.”

And if there is any doubt that God wanted His people to learn from their situation:

48:10 Look, I have refined you, but not as silver;
I have purified you in the furnace of misery.

48:17 This is what the Lord, your protector, says,
the Holy One of Israel:
“I am the Lord your God,
who teaches you how to succeed,
who leads you in the way you should go.

And finally there is the most famous few verses from Isaiah where the Servant's actions result in a full reverseal of God's judgments:

53:4 But he lifted up our illnesses,
he carried our pain;
even though we thought he was being punished,
attacked by God, and afflicted for something he had done.
53:5 He was wounded because of our rebellious deeds,
crushed because of our sins;
he endured punishment that made us well;
because of his wounds we have been healed.


To Isaiah, this is a reversal of judgment on God's people that was given by God Himself. And throught his book, Isaiah is writing that God's people are "ill", "blind", "deaf", "sick", "afflicted", and "in pain". But this isn't some random event, but rather it's a judgment by God on His own people. Like, Ezekiel and Hosea, Isaiah understands that God is AGAINST His people because of their rebellion. And just like Mariam in Numbers 12, it's God's judgment because of His people's rebellion.

FrankFaith, how you miss all this is beyond me.
 
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FrankFaith

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Well, that's twice now you have just been dismissive. Mariam was leprous as part of God's judgment on her for stirring up rebellion against Moses. It was the Lords "anger" that burned against them.

You are basically incapable of reading literature at the lowest level.

And it is a sowing reaping type of event. Mariam sowed rebellion against Moses and reaped judgment in the form of becoming leprous. A judgment obviously given by God in Numbers 12.

So we have Ezekiel talking about God sending famine and plague (which is a small part of the matter) and we have God making Mariam become leprous because of rebellion against Moses.

Then there is Hosea 6:1

Come, let us return to the LORD.
For He has torn us,
but He will heal us;
He has wounded us,
but He will bandage us.


Hosea says Yahweh had "torn" Israel, but that He would eventually "heal" Israel. Now what is Yahweh going to "heal" Israel from? His own judgment against His people. A judgment HE Himself had pronounced:

Isaiah 6:9 He said, “Go and tell these people:
‘Listen continually, but don’t understand!
Look continually, but don’t perceive!’
6:10 Make the hearts of these people calloused;
make their ears deaf and their eyes blind!
Otherwise they might see with their eyes and hear with their ears,
their hearts might understand and they might repent and be healed.”


God has judged His people and made them "blind" and "deaf". Later in Isaiah we find that God's judgment had taken effect:

29:9 You will be shocked and amazed!
You are totally blind!
They are drunk, but not because of wine;
they stagger, but not because of beer.
29:10 For the Lord has poured out on you
a strong urge to sleep deeply.
He has shut your eyes (the prophets),
and covered your heads (the seers).

The were blind and staggering like drunkards; and it was God's own judgment that caused it. Even though it was His judgment, He promises to reverse it:

35:4 Tell those who panic
“Be strong! Do not fear!
Look, your God comes to avenge!
With divine retribution he comes to deliver you.”
35:5 Then blind eyes will open,
deaf ears will hear.
35:6 Then the lame will leap like a deer,
the mute tongue will shout for joy;
for water will flow in the desert,
streams in the wilderness

Here God promises to reverse the conditions on His people (conditions rendered by Him in Isaiah 6). Here the judgments that will be reversed are "blindness", "deafness", and "lameness". Isaiah will continue to explain the condition of the people of God as in their condition due to His own decree. Isaiah does say that God's punishment will eventually be completed and reversed though:

40:2 “Speak kindly to Jerusalem, and tell her
that her time of warfare is over,
that her punishment is completed.
For the Lord has made her pay double for all her sins.”

Isaiah still think though that the condition of Israel at the time is due to judgment from God and he will continue to allude to the blindness and deafness of God's people that was administered by God in Isaiah 6:

40:21 Do you not know?
Do you not hear?
Has it not been told to you since the very beginning?
Have you not understood from the time the earth’s foundations were made?

43:8 Bring out the people who are blind, even though they have eyes,
those who are deaf, even though they have ears!

If at this point there is still any doubt as to the cause of Israel's condition, Isaiah still thinks it was judgment from God:

43:27 The father of your nation sinned;
your spokesmen rebelled against me.
43:28 So I defiled your holy princes,
and handed Jacob over to destruction,
and subjected Israel to humiliating abuse.”

And if there is any doubt that God wanted His people to learn from their situation:

48:10 Look, I have refined you, but not as silver;
I have purified you in the furnace of misery.

48:17 This is what the Lord, your protector, says,
the Holy One of Israel:
“I am the Lord your God,
who teaches you how to succeed,
who leads you in the way you should go.

And finally there is the most famous few verses from Isaiah where the Servant's actions result in a full reverseal of God's judgments:

53:4 But he lifted up our illnesses,
he carried our pain;
even though we thought he was being punished,
attacked by God, and afflicted for something he had done.
53:5 He was wounded because of our rebellious deeds,
crushed because of our sins;
he endured punishment that made us well;
because of his wounds we have been healed.


To Isaiah, this is a reversal of judgment on God's people that was given by God Himself. And throught his book, Isaiah is writing that God's people are "ill", "blind", "deaf", "sick", "afflicted", and "in pain". But this isn't some random event, but rather it's a judgment by God on His own people. Like, Ezekiel and Hosea, Isaiah understands that God is AGAINST His people because of their rebellion. And just like Mariam in Numbers 12, it's God's judgment because of His people's rebellion.

FrankFaith, how you miss all this is beyond me.

Your response is missing the point entirely.

Everything is sowing and reaping based upon the systems God had put in place. We reap what we sow. Is it God's fault that Adam and Eve ate from the tree because He put the tree there? Is it His fault we fall and hit the ground if we walk off the roof?

The OP has defined a specific type of situation for a specific purpose. We aren't going to get anywhere if we continually lump a whole lotta other stuff in with it.

The point of the thread is that we simply cannot base an entire belief system of God using sickness and disease to teach us (which is the reason folks say God can't be depended upon to heal today through faith) upon two (so far) flimsily-supported events in the old testiment.

It's rediculous. PLEASE STAY WITHIN THE BOUNDS OF THE OP OR START YOUR OWN THREAD AND CONCEED THAT THE OP IS CORRECT.
 
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Yekcidmij

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Your response is missing the point entirely.

Not really.

Everything is sowing and reaping based upon the systems God had put in place. We reap what we sow. Is it God's fault that Adam and Eve ate from the tree because He put the tree there? Is it His fault we fall and hit the ground if we walk off the roof?

Judgment is His to give.

The point of the thread is that we simply cannot base an entire belief system of God using sickness and disease to teach us (which is the reason folks say God can't be depended upon to heal today through faith) upon two (so far) flimsily-supported events in the old testiment.

I wouldn't classify it as an "entire belief system". It's not come all encompassing system, but does make up a part of a larger belief system; that being the worship of the God of Israel. The ancient Israelites, including the authors of the old testament, often saw their disease and sickness as being God's judgment on them, particularly with relation to the time of the exile. The simple lesson ancient Israel didn't get was that they shouldn't been worshiping other gods and they should be worshiping Yahweh only. I'm sorry you cannot see that.

And who says that God doesn't heal today? Why wouldn't He? In fact, in most of the instances I can find (OT included), the last word/action from God is restoration and life. It's not a choice for me between God healing or God injuring. He does both. As the OT declares, God wounds and and heals, He kills and gives life. He is Sovreign.

It's rediculous. PLEASE STAY WITHIN THE BOUNDS OF THE OP OR START YOUR OWN THREAD AND CONCEED THAT THE OP IS CORRECT.

I'm very well within your OP. You just don't want to actually address anything, such as the scripture that has been posted. You just arbitrarily dismiss Ezekiel, Numbers, and Isaiah by declaring them "flimsy" and "ridiculous". You never actually address them.

The fact is that nobody is going to to be able to persuade you simply because you have a set of assumptions that you are working under that you didn't obtain from the text itself.
 
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FrankFaith

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Once again, we are off track. We keep discussing this and that. I am plenty willing to conceed to some possible occurances, but you aren't giving me any THAT MATCH THE OP CRITERIA. Once again, there is a reason the OP asks for specific criteria.

POST ACCORDING TO THE OP OR DON'T POST AT ALL. IF YOUR REFERENCE REMOTELY QUALIFYS I WILL ADD IT TO THE OTHER 2 REFERENCES THAT REMOTELY QUALIFY.

We will see maybe a handful of instances that remotely qualify--you can say that they qualify fully--that's fine--but the point is that even if we accumulate a half dozen references, that basing a belief system (I don't think you are aware of the ramifications of believing specifically what the OP outlines) upon these instances is very unstable.
 
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The whole point between good and evil is power; where is the power, who controls the power; God or Satan/man? God is eternal; Satan is nothing but a being created by God and is a liar and a murderer from his beginning. Satan is the evil one; we all know and understand this, but do we also know and understand there is no power created that has power over the one who controls and knows and created all things. If there is then God should be spelled “god”.



The Message (MSG)
Colossians 15-18We look at this Son and see the God who cannot be seen. We look at this Son and see God's original purpose in everything created. For everything, absolutely everything, above and below, visible and invisible, rank after rank after rank of angels—everything got started in him and finds its purpose in him. He was there before any of it came into existence and holds it all together right up to this moment. And when it comes to the church, he organizes and holds it together, like a head does a body.
18-20He was supreme in the beginning and—leading the resurrection parade—he is supreme in the end. From beginning to end he's there, towering far above everything, everyone. So spacious is he, so roomy, that everything of God finds its proper place in him without crowding. Not only that, but all the broken and dislocated pieces of the universe—people and things, animals and atoms—get properly fixed and fit together in vibrant harmonies, all because of his death, his blood that poured down from the cross

Jesus is the alpha and the omega, the beginning and the end; in fact He is also all the Greek letters in between.
 
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FrankFaith

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The whole point between good and evil is power; where is the power, who controls the power; God or Satan/man? God is eternal; Satan is nothing but a being created by God and is a liar and a murderer from his beginning. Satan is the evil one; we all know and understand this, but do we also know and understand there is no power created that has power over the one who controls and knows and created all things. If there is then God should be spelled “god”.



The Message (MSG)
Colossians 15-18We look at this Son and see the God who cannot be seen. We look at this Son and see God's original purpose in everything created. For everything, absolutely everything, above and below, visible and invisible, rank after rank after rank of angels—everything got started in him and finds its purpose in him. He was there before any of it came into existence and holds it all together right up to this moment. And when it comes to the church, he organizes and holds it together, like a head does a body.
18-20He was supreme in the beginning and—leading the resurrection parade—he is supreme in the end. From beginning to end he's there, towering far above everything, everyone. So spacious is he, so roomy, that everything of God finds its proper place in him without crowding. Not only that, but all the broken and dislocated pieces of the universe—people and things, animals and atoms—get properly fixed and fit together in vibrant harmonies, all because of his death, his blood that poured down from the cross

Jesus is the alpha and the omega, the beginning and the end; in fact He is also all the Greek letters in between.

OOOOOOOH...KAAAAAAAY.

Did you forget to post a reference PER THE OP?! :doh:

Please start your own thread.
 
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