God is GOOD...not bad.

NaLuvena · Jan 13, 2009

didaskalos said:
Redefinition of words and concepts.

Pain is bad.
Suffering is bad.
Curses are bad.
Blessings are good.
Hell is pain and bad.
Sin is bad.
Righteousness is good.
Heaven is good.

I suppose if you are a SM then pain and suffering would be "good."

Joke:
[bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse] to Sadist: "Hurt me!"
Sadist to [bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse]: "nooooo..."

If suffering was bad, why would this scripture exist?

Isaiah 53:4

Surely he took up our infirmities and carried our sorrows, yet we considered him stricken by God, smitten by him, and afflicted.

Hebrews 2:10

In bringing many sons to glory, it was fitting that God, for whom and through whom everything exists, should make the author of their salvation perfect through suffering.

Why would God afflict Jesus with suffering if it was bad? If all you can see is the pain, then you will always believe that suffering is bad. If you can look beyond the pain, and see what God is doing, then you will see that suffering is not always bad,t hat there are other issues to be considered and that sometimes, suffering is actually good for us.

JimfromOhio · Jan 13, 2009

There will be about 5 posters here who is against the Book of Job and God's Sovereign of that He allows things to happen (giving Satan permission to hurt His people).

SavedByGrace3 · Jan 13, 2009

Some have brought some very good scriptures regarding what appears to be evil directly carried out by God's hand. Let's look at at least two instance where such language and look at the particulars which may give us more vision at the behind the scenes mechanics of these occurrences.

Here is one:

Deu 18:
(10) There shall not be found among you any one that maketh his son or his daughter to pass through the fire, or that useth divination, or an observer of times, or an enchanter, or a witch,
(11) Or a charmer, or a consulter with familiar spirits, or a wizard, or a necromancer.
(12) For all that do these things are an abomination unto the LORD: and because of these abominations the LORD thy God doth drive them out from before thee.
(13) Thou shalt be perfect with the LORD thy God.

Now if you stopped right here and assumed you knew the whole story, you might conclude that God personally reached down and drove out the inhabitants of the land. But lets look at a parallel passage:

Lev 18:
(24) Defile not ye yourselves in any of these things: for in all these the nations are defiled which I cast out before you:
(25) And the land is defiled: therefore I do visit the iniquity thereof upon it, and the land itself vomiteth out her inhabitants.
(26) Ye shall therefore keep my statutes and my judgments, and shall not commit any of these abominations; neither any of your own nation, nor any stranger that sojourneth among you:
(27) (For all these abominations have the men of the land done, which were before you, and the land is defiled

(28) That the land spue not you out also, when ye defile it, as it spued out the nations that were before you.

In verse 24 we see God saying He personally cast out the nations from the promise land. Yet in verse 24 we get a more perfect understanding of the actual mechanism that carried out this act. It was actually "the land itself" that did the deed. IOWs and IMO this was merely the same sowing and reaping mechanism that works in all creation that God put into place at the foundation of the world. And sowing and reaping in itself is not a bad thing! It was intended to be used to bless those who sowed righteousness and continue creation forever. When they sowed the land and worked, they reaped benefits of their efforts. When the creation fell, that law of sowing and reaping did not disappear. It is still working only now in also works against those who sin. Like the righteous, the sinner reaps what he sows. It can be truthfully said that God is behind it, but only in the context of a two way law. It works both ways, and what you reap (blessing or curse) is determined by what you sow. It is unfortunate that those who sow corruption reap corruption, but God is not going to disable the law of sowing and reaping because of it. If God disabled the law of sowing and reaping then creation itself would cease. Creation needs this and other laws to exist in order to function. So when it says "I cast them out before you" we can see in the text that in reality it is "the land itself" (creation) that is casting them out. These are not interventions by God. These are events happening because of existing rules that have been set up. They are the "default" value. God allows everything to happen, good and evil, by default. When He acts, it is an intervention into these preexisting laws of nature. That is the difference.
Why does this matter? What is the difference between God personally casting out the people from the land and it occurring automatically by a law that He created?
The difference is profound. As pointed out in a previous post, there is a difference between something happening "by default" and it happening "by intervention." These people were cast out of the land by default; that is by an existing rule of creation set up by God that was intended for good not evil. It is unfortunate that creation fell and so now sin is using this law to bring curses. However, when God intervenes, it is always good, always pure, it always brings salvation and blessing.

So it is my understanding that when God says these things in His word, He does not always spell it out as He did in these verses. He does not always detail the mechanism of the evil, calamity, or destruction. But IMO, in virtually every case, it is the built in mechanisms of creation that actually bring on the events, and since God put those mechanisms into effect (howbeit originally for good and not evil) it may be said "God did it."

This same language is found here:

Lev 20:
(22) Ye shall therefore keep all my statutes, and all my judgments, and do them: that the land, whither I bring you to dwell therein, spue you not out.
(23) And ye shall not walk in the manners of the nation, which I cast out before you: for they committed all these things, and therefore I abhorred them.

So who cast them out? God or the land.? Obviously God was not the tool of the land to carry out this operation... it was the land itself that was used by God, and that by an existing law of creation. Creation spues out abominations in order to cleanse itself of poison that would destroy it. That is what vomiting was intended for. To cleanse. It would be a mistake to say that this was an evil thing the land was doing. It was just acting in accordance with a build in law of creation: the law that helps creation remain clean and functional for man.
Any ideas are welcome unless frank says no. It is his thread.

FrankFaith · Jan 13, 2009

NaLuvena said:
If God does not inflict sickness and disease on His people, and Satan does (according to your narrow definition), that would make it seem like you are implying that there are situations that God does not control.

Do you have a free will? How could you if God is in control?

If you fall off the roof, can you blame God for creating gravity?

What was the reference for the girl who didn't qualify as one of His people?

FrankFaith · Jan 13, 2009

JimfromOhio said:
I will repeat what I post in another thread.

Sin is the major cause of illnesses, accidents, hurting other people, and etc. All human problems are linked to sin, because if there were no sin, there would be no problems.

As long as we LIVE in this SINFUL world, this world do NOT discriminate between believers and unbelievers (God allows things to happen). Plane crashes, boat sinkings, train accidents, car collisions, heart disease, cancer doesn't discriminate between a sinner and a saint, or between a sinner and a sinner. Christians do get sick, hurt, disabled and even DIED.

Sin is any violation, any violation of the character or law of God, the moral character or the law of God. Summing it up, 1st John 3:4. 1st John 3:4 says: "Sin is the transgression of the law. Sin is the transgression of the law." The sources of "thorns" can be weaknesses, insults, distresses, persecutions and difficulties.

Sometimes God don't heal. God uses thorns to perfect His "power is perfected in weakness". Through GRACE, "Perseverance must finish its work so that you may be mature and complete, not lacking anything." (James 1:4). Grace of heart is a gift from God and this has nothing to do with the thorns because God change our circumstances by changing us internally, by allowing Him to lift us above our present thorn and He will lead us into His will. James says count it all joy when you fall into various trials cause trials have a perfecting work. Peter says after you've suffered a while the Lord will make you perfect.

God didn't say He would 'TAKE AWAY' our problems or sickensses in this life. If God is ALL good, then Solomon would not write the negative side of God in Ecclesiastes. Ecclesiastes 7:14 When times are good, be happy; but when times are bad, consider: God has made the one as well as the other. Therefore, a man cannot discover anything about his future. In Ephesians 1:11, "He works all things according to the purpose of His own will."

Perhaps the question should be, "How do I deal with pain and suffering?" We have Gods Spirit, the promise of Christs presence, the reality of biblical truth, and the power that He promises under pressure. There will always be pain and suffering. This is a fallen world. The Fall has infected the way we think, the way we feel, the way we act and who we are. We live in a world in which bad things happen to "good" people. There is hope though. We are not Home yet. We have been called as Gods people to glorify God. When we get Home, there will be no more pain, no more suffering and no more tears. Only then.

Why did you post this? Can't you read the OP?

REFERENCES, please.

Yekcidmij · Jan 13, 2009

didaskalos said:
Case reopened...
People were taught via the resurrection, not the sickness and death.
Case reclosed.

NOW, you've hit on something I agree with.

The "last word" from God for His people is life (at least in most cases in the bible I can find). Death doesn't have the last word.

NaLuvena · Jan 13, 2009

FrankFaith said:
Do you have a free will? How could you if God is in control?

If you fall off the roof, can you blame God for creating gravity?

What was the reference for the girl who didn't qualify as one of His people?

I have free will, as long as God allows me to have free will.

In the case of Pharaoh, God "hardened his heart" so that he would not agree to Moses, telling him to let the Israelites go. God did this so that His Glory would be demonstrated through Pharaoh. If this case God overrode Pharaohs will, so that His purpose might be done.

You still haven't explained why Miriam did not qualify under the criteria you specified in your OP. Or maybe it cannot be explained away? Also, I'm not sure what reference you are referring to for "the girl who didn't qualify as one of His people?"

Elijah2 · Jan 13, 2009

JimfromOhio said:
There will be about 5 posters here who is against the Book of Job and God's Sovereign of that He allows things to happen (giving Satan permission to hurt His people).

Mate we all know that our Lord Jesus Christ sits on the RH side as our defence lawyer and Satan on the LH side as our attacker.

Now if our defence lawyer isn't able to give HIM the answers HE needs then Satan is given the "all clear" to influence, torment and harass, as in the case that he does throughout most faithful servants lives as they walk that "narrow path", including Job's and Paul's.

FrankFaith · Jan 13, 2009

NaLuvena said:
You still haven't explained why Miriam did not qualify under the criteria you specified in your OP. Or maybe it cannot be explained away? Also, I'm not sure what reference you are referring to for "the girl who didn't qualify as one of His people?"

Please give me your reference again so I can explain this away, as you put it. *Be prepared, however, for Truth to do away with it as I give you your answer.

NaLuvena · Jan 13, 2009

FrankFaith said:
Please give me your reference again so I can explain this away, as you put it. *Be prepared, however, for Truth to do away with it as I give you your answer.

sigh......

Numbers 12

1 Miriam and Aaron began to talk against Moses because of his Cushite wife, for he had married a Cushite. 2 "Has the LORD spoken only through Moses?" they asked. "Hasn't he also spoken through us?" And the LORD heard this. 3 (Now Moses was a very humble man, more humble than anyone else on the face of the earth.)
4 At once the LORD said to Moses, Aaron and Miriam, "Come out to the Tent of Meeting, all three of you." So the three of them came out. 5 Then the LORD came down in a pillar of cloud; he stood at the entrance to the Tent and summoned Aaron and Miriam. When both of them stepped forward, 6 he said, "Listen to my words:
"When a prophet of the LORD is among you,
I reveal myself to him in visions,
I speak to him in dreams.
7 But this is not true of my servant Moses;
he is faithful in all my house.
8 With him I speak face to face,
clearly and not in riddles;
he sees the form of the LORD.
Why then were you not afraid
to speak against my servant Moses?"
9 The anger of the LORD burned against them, and he left them.
10 When the cloud lifted from above the Tent, there stood Miriamleprous, like snow. Aaron turned toward her and saw that she had leprosy; 11 and he said to Moses, "Please, my lord, do not hold against us the sin we have so foolishly committed. 12 Do not let her be like a stillborn infant coming from its mother's womb with its flesh half eaten away."
13 So Moses cried out to the LORD, "O God, please heal her!"
14 The LORD replied to Moses, "If her father had spit in her face, would she not have been in disgrace for seven days? Confine her outside the camp for seven days; after that she can be brought back." 15 So Miriam was confined outside the camp for seven days, and the people did not move on till she was brought back.

FrankFaith · Jan 13, 2009

Let me do some research. *Please note that there isn't a verse that says that God did this to her.

NaLuvena · Jan 13, 2009

FrankFaith said:
Let me do some research. *Please note that there isn't a verse that says that God did this to her.

Let's see....

Miriam and Aaron start opposing Moses.

God calls all three of them to the Tent of Meeting. When they arrived there, God came down in a pillar of cloud, stepped forward and addresses them. He basically chastened Miriam and Aaron for opposing Moses, and scripture says "His anger burned against them". When He departed, Miriam had leprosy.

Aaron pleaded with Moses to forgive them when he saw what happened. Moses prayed to God to heal her, and God said it would take 7 days. So the exodus took a 1-week break, to wait for Miriam.

Now who do you think caused the leprosy. God. Unless you think Satan was in the pillar of cloud as well...

pinetree · Jan 13, 2009

didaskalos said:
Case reopened...
People were taught via the resurrection, not the sickness and death.
Case reclosed.

Good afternoon dids.. :wave:

Could there have been the resurrection,if there was not the sickness,that lead to the death of Laz?

God did it all!

Case closed..

Ps,in an abstract kinda way bro..you remind me of me.

pinetree · Jan 13, 2009

FrankFaith said:
Let me do some research. *Please note that there isn't a verse that says that God did this to her.

Do you think God is stronger than the devil?

He put 7 nations there,that were not exactly loving people to greet the Israelites..

God used evil to glorify himself..

As the french say..WEE WEE?

pinetree · Jan 13, 2009

A lesson cant be learned from the part of the story about illness?

Are we a people to only hope in this life?

SavedByGrace3 · Jan 13, 2009

pinetree said:
Good afternoon dids..
Could there have been the resurrection,if there was not the sickness,that lead to the death of Laz?

God did it all!

Case closed..

Ps,in an abstract kinda way bro..you remind me of me.

Not even close...
My head is much harder than yours.

Cassidy · Jan 13, 2009

As long as we LIVE in this SINFUL world, this world do NOT discriminate between believers and unbelievers (God allows things to happen). Plane crashes, boat sinkings, train accidents, car collisions, heart disease, cancer doesn't discriminate between a sinner and a saint, or between a sinner and a sinner. Christians do get sick, hurt, disabled and even DIED.

What's that scripture? The rain falls on the just and the unjust??

SavedByGrace3 · Jan 13, 2009

Cassidy said:
What's that scripture? The rain falls on the just and the unjust??

In the context of the passage, rain is a good thing not a bad. It causes crops to germinate and grow to fruit. What the author is saying is that God BLESSES the just and the unjust... not that He curses the just and the unjust.

Cassidy · Jan 13, 2009

What do trials and tribulations come under?? Would that be suffering? sickness? what? Because it does say that God gives us trials and tribulations to strengthen us...whether that comes under the criteria would depend on one's definition of trials and tribulations.

Cassidy · Jan 13, 2009

didaskalos said:
In the context of the passage, rain is a good thing not a bad. It causes crops to germinate and grow to fruit. What the author is saying is that God BLESSES the just and the unjust... not that He curses the just and the unjust.

Oh I've always seen it as like 'storms', 'floods' not just rain. Oh well meh!

God is GOOD...not bad.

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