God is GOOD...not bad.

RE:

However add the words "does Go allow" IE..Job...

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Of course He allows bad things to happen.
But the fact is, God allows everything to happen by default.
So when bad things happen, we really cannot attach any significance to them. Unless He tells us, we really cannot know why they happen, nor can we use them to define God and His will. The most basic statement we can make is that He allows everything, good and bad to happen all the time. He can intervien... but those interventions are the exception, not the rule. So the only time we can actually use events to define His will and nature are those times when He intervenes. Such as Jesus, the gospel, God telling satan to not touch, and then not kill Job. These are interventions and they define God. What satan tried to do to Job is the everyday business of his existence. Satan has standing permission to kill, steal, destroy, and devour whomever he can. Just as you, I or any other created being does. He does not need permission, only opportunity. So when Satan does what he always does, we cannot derive anything about God or His nature by suggesting God "allowed" it for some special purpose or plan. There is no plan. It is just satan doing what he always does according to the laws of nature and creation that have been in place since the founding of the world.

This is yet another of the many errors of the mere theist mindset. It causes good people to malign God, reject the effective lordship of Jesus, and destroy the faith of those hapless souls who are unfortunate enough to hear and believe what they are say.
GOD IS GOOD!
BELIEVE IT!

Why should this test limit itself only to that of his own followers, surely Morality applies to all situations and therefore should extend itself to all people?

More obfuscation.
These things were evil to start with..
You cannot "turn" something from evil to good unless it is evil to start with. So it was evil and bad. God called it bad and evil, and saw fit to turn it... so even God by definition considers bad to be bad and evil to be evil. He did not say "no, the evil is really good so I am not going to change it."
NO,
In order for it to become good He had to turn it. If He had not turned it, it would have remained bad.
English.
Logic.
Established definitions.
That is how correct understandings come. Not by evoking the old mere theistic drum beat "God's logic is different from human logic."
NO.... the logic of God is true, unchanging, and eternal.
1 plus 1 is two.
That is the way God adds it, and that is the way we add it.
God did not decide to change logic, the meanings of words, or the facts of the universe just to trick us and tell us "I told you so." He is not out to confuse us and deceive us. There is no single element of God and His nature or creation that we are incapable of understanding once we know the facts. He is not hidden. He is not playing games with us. He is not out to make us look small just to make Himself look bigger. He does not have to.
People perish because of the lack of knowledge. He is not withholding necessary knowledge from us or feeding us false knowledge just to prove we can fail and perish. If He did then that would cast great questions about HIS goodness and reliability. Yet this is exactly what those with the mere theist mindset suggest. God is making requirements of us and then changing the rules, changing the definitions of words, feeding us false knowledge, and withholding knowledge and calling those who fall for it "faithful."
Of course the truth is God is doing no such thing.
Those with these false doctrines do this to protect themselves and their fragile and artificial "faith." All at the expense of the poor souls who hear and believe the falsities they speak.

Jimbeaux said:

Apparently, most of us have lost interest in your thread, Frank. Sorry.

And, BTW, shouldn’t this thread be in the “debate” forum since you obviously are trying to stir up a debate?

But to call your (and Dids&#8217 hand on this (since you are so eager to debate it in this non-debate forum): for you to say that your small, select side of these issues does not redefine English words to suit your doctrine is like catching a kid with his hand in the cookie jar saying, “Who? Me?”

Dids’ list looks at pain, suffering, et. al. from a “mere humanistic” POV. Of course (most of) those things are "bad" to us, by our definition, because they are often physically painful but in the hands of God those things (excluding hell, of course ) can be good in the sense that God can turn them for good (i.e., God can use them for our good).

But the LORD your God turned the curse into a blessing for you, because the LORD your God loves you. (Deut. 23.5)
​

When God does that, when He takes a curse and turns it into a blessing, is it still a “curse”? Or, does the curse become a blessing (in disguise, as they say) when God uses it to bring blessing into our lives.

But as for you, you meant evil against me; but God meant it for good, in order to bring it about as it is this day, to save many people alive. (Gen. 50.20)

Because they met not the children of Israel with bread and with water, but hired Balaam against them, that he should curse them: howbeit our God turned the curse into a blessing. (Neh. 13.2)
​

Likewise, God can turn what we consider a “blessing” (like wealth, influence, health, etc.) into a curse for us.

If ye will not hear, and if ye will not lay it to heart, to give glory unto my name, saith the LORD of hosts, I will even send a curse upon you, and I will curse your blessings: yea, I have cursed them already, because ye do not lay it to heart. (Mal. 2.2)
​

IOW, God sees things differently than we do. What we call a blessing (which usually means nothing much more than material comfort) may not be in God's sight and what we call a curse (like being broke or in bad health) may, in fact, be used by God as a blessing to us and/or others and, therefore, be a blessing.

~Bjorn Free

A candle loses nothing by lighting another candle.​

​

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FrankFaith said:

I noticed that you didn't use MY phrase, "put sickness and disease on His people". Why? Because your references do not say that this is what's happening!

Once again, please, all READ THE OP.

No one is saying that God does not punish His children--He DOES--He is a Good Father. Where you are in error is in believing--without scriptural support--that He puts sickness and disease on His children to teach or chastise.

Once again, please READ THE OP.

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I guess I'm just going to have to start repeating things at this point. Maybe if I just post a larger amount of the passage you will see it. I will help you out this time and even highlight even more in red. As you want me to read your OP, so I want you to actually read what I post:


Ezekiel 5:11 “Therefore, as surely as I live, says the sovereign Lord, because you defiled my sanctuary with all your detestable idols and with all your abominable practices, I will withdraw; my eye will not pity you, nor will I spare you. 5:12 A third of your people will die of plague or be overcome by the famine within you. A third of your people will fall by the sword surrounding you, and a third I will scatter to the winds. I will unleash a sword behind them. 5:13 Then my anger will be fully vented; I will exhaust my rage on them, and I will be appeased. Then they will know that I, the Lord, have spoken in my jealousy when I have fully vented my rage against them.
5:14 “I will make you desolate and an object of scorn among the nations around you, in the sight of everyone who passes by. 5:15 You will be 24 an object of scorn and taunting, a prime example of destruction 26 among the nations around you when I execute judgments against you in anger and raging fury. I, the Lord, have spoken! 5:16 I will shoot against them deadly, destructive arrows of famine, which I will shoot to destroy you. I will prolong a famine on you and will remove the bread supply. 5:17 I will send famine and wild beasts against you and they will take your children from you. Plague and bloodshed will overwhelm you, and I will bring a sword against you. I, the Lord, have spoken!”



Yes, it's quite sobering. Yahweh fought against His people. Lamentations records the lament of Yahweh's actions:

Lam 1:12 [Jerusalem speakding] Is it nothing to you, all you who pass by on the road?
Look and see!
Is there any pain like mine?
The Lord has afflicted me,
he has inflicted it on me
when he burned with anger

2:12 Children say to their mothers,
“Where are food and drink?”
They faint like a wounded warrior
in the city squares.
They die slowly
in their mothers’ arms.

2:17 The Lord has done what he planned;
he has fulfilled his promises
that he threatened long ago:
He has overthrown you without mercy
and has enabled the enemy to gloat over you;
he has exalted your adversaries’ power.

2:20 Look, O Lord! Consider!
Whom have you ever afflicted like this?
Should women eat their offspring,
their healthy infants?
Should priest and prophet
be killed in the Lord’s sanctuary?

3:4 He has made my mortal skin waste away;
he has broken my bones.
3:5 He has besieged and surrounded me
with bitter hardship.
3:6 He has made me reside in deepest darkness
like those who died long ago.




It's a pretty serious matter. Lamentations, and Ezekiel, Hosea, Isaiah, and Jeremiah attribute the exile to Yahweh. Yahweh did it. He decreed it. I mean, "women eating their children"? Wow. Yahweh is the One that leaves His people and turns to fight against them. He sends famine, plague, death, etc... to His own people.

FrankFaith, I doubt you have even read all my post up to this point so I fully expect you to just repeat what you've been saying.

FrankFaith said:

And now we can add to these 9 pages of garbage another changer of the subject!

READ THE OP AND POST YOUR REFERENCES.

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Ezekial 5:11-17 should fill your criteria nicely

Therefore as surely as I live, declares the Sovereign LORD, because you have defiled my sanctuary with all your vile images and detestable practices, I myself will withdraw my favor; I will not look on you with pity or spare you. 12 A third of your people will die of the plague or perish by famine inside you; a third will fall by the sword outside your walls; and a third I will scatter to the winds and pursue with drawn sword.

13 "Then my anger will cease and my wrath against them will subside, and I will be avenged. And when I have spent my wrath upon them, they will know that I the LORD have spoken in my zeal. 14 "I will make you a ruin and a reproach among the nations around you, in the sight of all who pass by. 15 You will be a reproach and a taunt, a warning and an object of horror to the nations around you when I inflict punishment on you in anger and in wrath and with stinging rebuke. I the LORD have spoken. 16 When I shoot at you with my deadly and destructive arrows of famine, I will shoot to destroy you. I will bring more and more famine upon you and cut off your supply of food. 17 I will send famine and wild beasts against you, and they will leave you childless. Plague and bloodshed will sweep through you, and I will bring the sword against you. I the LORD have spoken."


Your title is "God is Good" applying a direct posative morality to god.

But then you say "Only in these certain contand criteria" but to fully judge anything's morality you need to veiw and assertain all of there actions.

There are hundreds of examples of God's murder, punishment, plague, famine and all the rest to non belivers.

And by that Logic you put forth it is Morally correct to punish non followers.

And also many examples of Punishment's to the Faithfull have been given allready, just none of Deseise (except of course the Lepracy one you ignored) Again you give a closed critera which ignores other facts and makes an argument instantly faverable to yourself.

Your full of fail on many levels

Edit: I see someone allready posted the Ezekial referance, good for them.

FrankFaith said:

Jimmie, the closest you get with the first scripture is nondescript "plague" mentioned once--and in conjunction with "bloodshed" in verse 17. I don't think you realize that what you're posting isn't what I'm asking for. Yes--it's violent, scarey stuff--but it does not meet the OP's criteria of God putting sickness or disease (these words aren't even mentioned!!) on His people to teach or chastise (was He teaching or chastising??). Surely you see this--it's not the same thing as what the OP isn asking for.

The rest doesn't remotely qualify for obvious reasons.

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Like I said, I fully expected you to repeat yourself. And you dismiss "plague" as nondescript. That's fine, even though it's exactly what you asked for. Any historian (or street bum for that matter) could tell you what accompanies famine - plague and disease. Just look at places in Africa.

But you won't see that. You will likely not read and understand the passage. Yahweh injures, kills, strikes, fights, sends famine, sends plague, etc.. against His people and they go into exile. Everything that happends to them is attributed to Yahweh's actions.

Lam 3:37 Whose command was ever fulfilled
unless the Lord decreed it?
3:38 Is it not from the mouth of the Most High that everything comes –
both calamity and blessing?
3:39 Why should any living person complain
when punished for his sins?


Note: only one of us is posting verses

FrankFaith said:

Syrokal, you are talking about many things OTHER than those the OP asks for. I'm not saying that scripture doesn't say what it says! I'm saying that the things you are bring up don't have naothing to do with the specifics requested in the OP. Didn't you ever play go-fish when you were a kid?! what you're saying and what the OP is asking for are different! Please stick with the OP.

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The point is, how does failure to proove the OP wrong in this narrow criteria proove God is by Definition Good?

pinetree said:

Laz was sick,believers were taught through it..case closed!

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Case reopened...
People were taught via the resurrection, not the sickness and death.
Case reclosed.

Originally Posted by FrankFaith

NaLuvena said:

Why doesn't she meet the criteria, and which of the 2 criteria are you referring to? I would be very interested to know this.

In case you hold that only NT saints are believers (which I disagree with, but will not go into here, in case I derail your thread), what about Ananias and Sapphira in Acts 5? They died because they lied to the Holy Spirit, and the Church then was in great fear because of what happened. I bet no one lied to the Holy Spirit after that.

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FrankFaith,

I posted this 6 pages ago, and you sidestepped the question, and kept on harping about how no one could prove you wrong. Maybe you could stop crowing about how nobody can prove you wrong, and explain why Miriam does not qualify as a believer.

If God does not inflict sickness and disease on His people, and Satan does (according to your narrow definition), that would make it seem like you are implying that there are situations that God does not control.

I will repeat what I post in another thread.

Sin is the major cause of illnesses, accidents, hurting other people, and etc. All human problems are linked to sin, because if there were no sin, there would be no problems.

As long as we LIVE in this SINFUL world, this world do NOT discriminate between believers and unbelievers (God allows things to happen). Plane crashes, boat sinkings, train accidents, car collisions, heart disease, cancer doesn't discriminate between a sinner and a saint, or between a sinner and a sinner. Christians do get sick, hurt, disabled and even DIED.

Sin is any violation, any violation of the character or law of God, the moral character or the law of God. Summing it up, 1st John 3:4. 1st John 3:4 says: "Sin is the transgression of the law. Sin is the transgression of the law." The sources of "thorns" can be weaknesses, insults, distresses, persecutions and difficulties.

Sometimes God don't heal. God uses thorns to perfect His "power is perfected in weakness". Through GRACE, "Perseverance must finish its work so that you may be mature and complete, not lacking anything." (James 1:4). Grace of heart is a gift from God and this has nothing to do with the thorns because God change our circumstances by changing us internally, by allowing Him to lift us above our present thorn and He will lead us into His will. James says count it all joy when you fall into various trials cause trials have a perfecting work. Peter says after you've suffered a while the Lord will make you perfect.

God didn't say He would 'TAKE AWAY' our problems or sickensses in this life. If God is ALL good, then Solomon would not write the negative side of God in Ecclesiastes. Ecclesiastes 7:14 When times are good, be happy; but when times are bad, consider: God has made the one as well as the other. Therefore, a man cannot discover anything about his future. In Ephesians 1:11, "He works all things according to the purpose of His own will."

Perhaps the question should be, "How do I deal with pain and suffering?" We have God’s Spirit, the promise of Christ’s presence, the reality of biblical truth, and the power that He promises under pressure. There will always be pain and suffering. This is a fallen world. The Fall has infected the way we think, the way we feel, the way we act and who we are. We live in a world in which bad things happen to "good" people. There is hope though. We are not Home yet. We have been called as God’s people to glorify God. When we get Home, there will be no more pain, no more suffering and no more tears. Only then.