Pre Mid Post - Yaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaah

Strong's #868 aphistemi is used in 1 Timothy 4:1 to
refer to people who will "depart" from the faith.

Strong's #868 aphistemi is used in Hebrews 3:12 to
refer to people "departing" from the living God.

Strong's #868 aphistemi is used in Luke 8:13 to refer
to people who "fall away" from their belief.

---

Strong's #646 apostasia is used in 2 Thessalonians
2:3 to refer to people "falling away", in the same
sense that Strong's #868 aphistemi is used in Luke
8:13 to refer to people who "fall away" from their
belief.

---

The 24 elders (Revelation 4:4) could be angels.

---

If one requires that the Greek word for faith be in
2 Thessalonians 2:3 before one will accept that it's
referring to a departure from the faith, then to be
consistent one would have to require that the Greek
word for the earth be in 2 Thessalonians 2:3 before
one could claim that it's referring to a departure
from the earth.

The church will never depart from the earth (Proverbs
10:30, John 17:15,20), but some in the church will
depart from the faith (1 Timothy 4:1).

The rapture won't be a departure of the church from
the earth, but simply a temporary catching up
together of the church into the clouds to meet Jesus
in the air on his way down to the earth at his second
coming (1 Thessalonians 4:15-17), so that the church
might be judged (Psalms 50:4-5, cf. Mark 13:27) and
then married (Revelation 19:7) in the clouds before
mounting white horses and coming back down from the
sky (the first heaven) with Jesus (Revelation 19:14).

---

2 Thessalonians 2:1-4 means that Jesus' coming and
gathering together (rapture) of the church can't
occur until sometime after there's a falling away
from the faith and the Antichrist commits the
abomination of desolation.

The church will have to go through the reign of the
Antichrist (Revelation 13:7-10, 14:12-13, 20:4,
Matthew 24:9-13).

Jesus won't come to gather together (rapture) the
church until after the tribulation (Matthew 24:29-31).

When Jesus comes to gather together the church he'll
destroy the Antichrist (2 Thessalonians 2:1,8,
Revelation 19:7,20).

---

The day of the Lord (1 Thessalonians 5:2) won't begin
until the second coming (1 Corinthians 1:7-8,
Revelation 16:15).

1 Thessalonians 5:1-2 doesn't say that the day of the
Lord isn't for the church, because the day of the Lord
is for the church (1 Corinthians 1:7-8, 2 Corinthians
1:14).

---

Galatians 4:6-7 and 1 Corinthians 6:2 don't teach a
a pre-tribulation rapture or a pre-second-coming
rapture, because the saints will go through the
tribulation (Revelation 13:7-10, 14:12-13, 20:4,
Matthew 24:9-13) and they'll be raptured at the
second coming (1 Thessalonians 4:15-17,
2 Thessalonians 2:1), after the tribulation (Matthew
24:29-31).

---

No scripture teaches a pre-tribulation rapture or a
pre-second-coming rapture.

Bible2 said:

Strong's #868 aphistemi is used in 1 Timothy 4:1 to
refer to people who will "depart" from the faith.

Strong's #868 aphistemi is used in Hebrews 3:12 to
refer to people "departing" from the living God.

Click to expand...

departure from the truth ... context

Strong's #868 aphistemi is used in Luke 8:13 to refer
to people who "fall away" from their belief.

Click to expand...

departure from belief because of a tempation

---

Strong's #646 apostasia is used in 2 Thessalonians
2:3 to refer to people "falling away", in the same
sense that Strong's #868 aphistemi is used in Luke
8:13 to refer to people who "fall away" from their
belief.

Click to expand...

departure from... context.... 1 thes 4:16-17 ... earth

---

The 24 elders (Revelation 4:4) could be angels.

Click to expand...

rev 7:11 All the angels stood around the throne and the elders and the four living creatures,

wrong

---

If one requires that the Greek word for faith be in
2 Thessalonians 2:3 before one will accept that it's
referring to a departure from the faith, then to be
consistent one would have to require that the Greek
word for the earth be in 2 Thessalonians 2:3 before
one could claim that it's referring to a departure
from the earth.

context ... from 1 thes 4:16-17 .... not made up

Click to expand...

The church will never depart from the earth (Proverbs
10:30, John 17:15,20), but some in the church will
depart from the faith (1 Timothy 4:1).

Click to expand...

once again showing that you do not understand the mysteries

The rapture won't be a departure of the church from
the earth, but simply a temporary catching up
together of the church into the clouds to meet Jesus
in the air on his way down to the earth at his second
coming (1 Thessalonians 4:15-17), so that the church
might be judged (Psalms 50:4-5, cf. Mark 13:27) and
then married (Revelation 19:7) in the clouds before
mounting white horses and coming back down from the
sky (the first heaven) with Jesus (Revelation 19:14).

Click to expand...

please defines the elders by scripture...

---

2 Thessalonians 2:1-4 means that Jesus' coming and
gathering together (rapture) of the church can't
occur until sometime after there's a falling away
from the faith and the Antichrist commits the
abomination of desolation.

The church will have to go through the reign of the
Antichrist (Revelation 13:7-10, 14:12-13, 20:4,
Matthew 24:9-13).

Jesus won't come to gather together (rapture) the
church until after the tribulation (Matthew 24:29-31).

When Jesus comes to gather together the church he'll
destroy the Antichrist (2 Thessalonians 2:1,8,
Revelation 19:7,20).

Click to expand...

What is promised different to the church that OT saints do not get ... Heb 11:1-38 OT saints Heb 11:39-40 NT saints?

---

The day of the Lord (1 Thessalonians 5:2) won't begin
until the second coming (1 Corinthians 1:7-8,
Revelation 16:15).

Click to expand...

And Why does the Church does not need to know about the Day of the Lord.... 1 thes 5:1-2 ... We are out of here.. 1 thes 4:16-17

1 Thessalonians 5:1-2 doesn't say that the day of the
Lord isn't for the church, because the day of the Lord
is for the church (1 Corinthians 1:7-8, 2 Corinthians
1:14).

Click to expand...

Both those day are the Day OF CHRIST= Rapture
verses that describe the day of the Lord... wrath
Day of the Lord...Isa 13:9, Jer 46:10, lam 2:22, eze 7:19, Joel 2:11 , Oba 1:15 , zeph 1:14,18, zeph 2:2,

Yet the church has been promise No Wrath .. Romans 5:9, 9:22, 1 thes 1:10, 1 thes 5:9....

---

Galatians 4:6-7 and 1 Corinthians 6:2 don't teach a
a pre-tribulation rapture or a pre-second-coming
rapture, because the saints will go through the
tribulation (Revelation 13:7-10, 14:12-13, 20:4,
Matthew 24:9-13) and they'll be raptured at the
second coming (1 Thessalonians 4:15-17,
2 Thessalonians 2:1), after the tribulation (Matthew
24:29-31).

---

No scripture teaches a pre-tribulation rapture or a
pre-second-coming rapture.

Click to expand...

1 cor 15:23-24

we are the firstfruit... Romans 8:23, heb 12:23... since we have been place into Christ 1 cor 12:12-13 .. we are part of the body which Christ is Head.. eph 1:22-23, eph 2:15

Nothing in the context of 2 Thessalonians 2:3 would make the
apostasia a departure from the earth, instead of an apostasy, a
departure from the faith (1 Timothy 4:1, Hebrews 3:12), a falling
away from the faith (Luke 8:13). For the church will never be
removed from the earth (Proverbs 10:30, John 17:15,20); the
rapture will take the church only as high as the clouds to meet
Jesus in the air on his way down to the earth at his second coming
(1 Thessalonians 4:15-17).

The whole point of 2 Thessalonians 2:1-4 is that Jesus can't come
and gather together (rapture) the church until sometime after
there's an apostasy and the Antichrist commits the abomination of
desolation. It would make no sense at all to read 2 Thessalonians
2:1-4 as meaning that Jesus can't come and gather together the
church until sometime after Jesus comes and gathers together the
church.

Jesus won't come and gather together the church until after the
tribulation (Matthew 24:29-31). That's why the marriage doesn't
happen until Revelation 19:7, after the tribulation of Revelation
chapters 6-18. When Jesus comes to gather together and marry the
church he'll destroy the Antichrist (2 Thessalonians 2:1,8, Revelation
19:7,20). Before Jesus comes the church will have to go through the
reign of the Antichrist (Revelation 13:7-10, 14:12-13, 20:4), through
the tribulation (Matthew 24:9-13).

Nowhere does any scripture ever teach a pre-tribulation rapture. It's
a fable contrary to the sound, Biblical doctrine (2 Timothy 4:2-4) of
the post-tribulation rapture (Matthew 24:29-31).

A pre-tribulation rapture is a false hope which could cause some of
its adherents to become "offended" when they find themselves in the
tribulation (Matthew 24:10, cf. 13:21), to the point where they
could commit apostasy (apostasia, 2 Thessalonians 2:3), fall away
from the faith (Luke 8:13, 1 Timothy 4:1, Hebrews 3:12), even curse
God during the tribulation (Isaiah 8:21-22, contrast 1 Peter 4:12-13).

Instead, God has told the church everything that it will have to face
during the tribulation (Mark 13:23, Revelation 1:1, 22:16) so that the
church might prepare itself to endure the coming tribulation with
patience and faith unto the end (Revelation 13:10, 14:12-13,
Matthew 24:13).

How the false idea of a pre-tribulation rapture weakens the church!
How it undermines the patience and faith of the church, getting the
church thinking that it won't have to endure a single moment of the
tribulation. How it leaves the church unprepared to go through that
terrible time. The lie of the pre-tribulation rapture can be only from
the father of lies himself (John 8:44b); it can only be a Trojan horse
brought within the church to ultimately defeat some in the church
during the coming tribulation.

May God deliver us all from the lie of the pre-tribulation rapture.

---

Revelation 7:11 doesn't say that the 24 elders aren't angels, but are
the church, just as it doesnt say that the four beasts aren't angels,
but are the church. Where Revelation 7:11 says "all the angels", it
could mean "all the other angels" besides the 24 elders and four
beasts mentioned in the same verse, just as where Hebrews 13:24
says "all the saints", it means "all the other saints" besides "them
that have the rule over you" mentioned in the same verse, for "them
that have the rule over you" are also saints (Hebrews 13:7,17).

---

2 Thessalonians 2:1-4 does have reference to 1 Thessalonians
4:15-17, for they both refer to Jesus' coming and gathering together
(rapture) of the church.

But the whole point of 2 Thessalonians 2:1-4 is to counter the false
idea that 1 Thessalonians 4:15-17 can happen before there's an
apostasy and the Antichrist commits the abomination of desolation.

To try to convert the apostasy into the rapture would be to turn the
whole intent of 2 Thessalonians 2:1-4 onto its head. And we know
who loves to turn the things of God upside down.

---

The Bible doesn't define who the 24 elders are. They could be angels.
No scripture says or requires that they're the church.

---

The OT saints have now already received and will receive all of the
promises given to the NT saints, for the OT saints all died in faith
(Hebrews 11:13), and now all those with faith have become part of
the one body of Christ, the church (Ephesians 4:4-5).

For after Jesus' resurrection, he went down into Hades and preached
the completion of the gospel to all of the OT saints (1 Peter 4:6,
3:19). At that moment they became the same as NT saints,
believers in exactly the same thing as NT saints (1 Corinthians
15:1-4), so that Jesus could then draw all of their souls up into
heaven (Ephesians 4:8-9) to be part of the church in heaven
(Hebrews 12:22-24), thereby fulfilling the hope of the OT saints that
they had way back in OT times (Hebrews 11:16).

All Hebrews 11:40 means is that the OT saints couldn't have their
heavenly hope fulfilled until the NT church had come into existence
through the death of Jesus Christ on the cross and his rising from
the dead on the third day (Matthew 26:28, Hebrews 9:15, 12:23-24).

---

No scripture says that the church doesn't need to know about the
day of the Lord. The day of the Lord will begin at the second coming
(1 Corinthians 1:7-8), when the church will rejoice (2 Corinthians
1:14, Philippians 2:16).

1 Thessalonians 5:1-6 simply means that Jesus' second coming
(Revelation 16:15, 19:7-21), after the tribulation (Matthew
24:29-31), won't take the church by surprise, because the church
will have been watching (staying awake, spiritually) for that coming
(Matthew 24:43, cf. Revelation 3:3).

---

Nothing in 1 Thessalonians 4:14-17 says or requires that the second
coming and rapture will be before the tribulation.

---

The day of Christ and the day of the Lord are the same day, the
day of the Lord Jesus Christ, the second coming that the church is
waiting for (1 Corinthians 1:7-8) and will rejoice in (1 Thessalonians
2:19).

---

Isaiah 13:9 is referring to the wrath-part of the second coming
(Revelation 19:15), which will occur on the same day as the rapture
and marriage part of the second coming (Revelation 19:7).

---

Jeremiah 46:10 refers to an ancient day of the Lord which occurred
at the river Euphrates, when Pharaohnecho king of Egypt was
defeated by Nebuchadrezzar king of Babylon (Jeremiah 46:2).

---

Lamentations 2:22, Ezekiel 7:19, and Zephaniah 1:14,18, 2:2 refer
to an ancient day of the Lord's anger, when he destroyed Jerusalem
and Judah (Lamentations 2:1-22, Ezekiel 7:2-27, Zephaniah 1:1-2:2)
by the hand of Nebuchadnezzar king of Babylon (Jeremiah 34:1-2).

---

Joel 2:11 refers to an ancient day of the Lord when he sent an army
of locusts and other plant-destroying insects into Israel (Joel 2:25)
sometime before Pentecost occurred (Joel 2:28, Acts 2:16-17).

---

Obadiah 1:15 could refer to the retribution-part of the second
coming (Revelation 19:11-21).

---

The second coming will be a bad day for the unsaved and a good
day for the saved (2 Thessalonians 1:7-10, 1 Peter 1:13, 4:13b).

---

Romans 5:9, 9:22-24, and 1 Thessalonians 1:10, 5:9 mean that no
one who has obtained salvation can be appointed to God's wrath.
So all those in the church who will live to enter into and go through
the tribulation (Matthew 24:9-13, Revelation 13:7-10, 14:12-13,
20:4) won't be appointed to God's wrath during that time.

---

1 Corinthians 15:22-23 shows that the resurrection of the church
can't happen until the second coming of Jesus (1 Thessalonians
4:14-16, Revelation 20:4-6). And the second coming of Jesus won't
happen until after the tribulation (Matthew 24:29-31, Revelation
19:7-21).

1 Corinthians 15:24-26 refers to the great white throne judgment
(Revelation 20:11-15), which won't happen until after the millennium
and the battle of Gog and Magog (Revelation 20:7-9, cf. Ezekiel
chapters 38-39).

---

Romans 8:23 means that the church has the firstfruits of the Spirit.

---

The firstborn in Hebrews 12:23 is Jesus (Hebrews 1:6, Romans 8:29,
Colossians 1:15,18, Revelation 1:5).

---

1 Corinthians 12:12-13 means that those in the church have been
baptized into the body of Christ.

Ephesians 1:22-23 means that the body of Christ is the church, and
that Jesus is the head of the body.

Ephesians 2:15 is part of a passage which shows that all Gentiles
in the church have been made fellowcitizens in Israel (Ephesians
2:12-19).

---

Those in Christ's body are made partakers of Christ's sufferings;
that, when his glory shall be revealed, they may be glad also with
exceeding joy (1 Peter 4:13).

Unto those in Christ's body it is given in the behalf of Christ, not
only to believe on him, but also to suffer for his sake (Philippians
1:29, Revelation 2:10, Matthew 24:9-13, Revelation 20:7-10,
14:12-13, 20:4).

Bible2 said:

Nothing in the context of 2 Thessalonians 2:3 would make the
apostasia a departure from the earth, instead of an apostasy, a
departure from the faith (1 Timothy 4:1, Hebrews 3:12)

Click to expand...

Please give the greek word in 2 thes 2:3 for faith... not there

But in the context of leaving the earth... 1 thes 4:16-18

, a falling
away from the faith (Luke 8:13). For the church will never be
removed from the earth (Proverbs 10:30, John 17:15,20)

Click to expand...

1 thes 4:17 always with the Lord
phil 3:20 citizens of the heavens

; the
rapture will take the church only as high as the clouds to meet
Jesus in the air on his way down to the earth at his second coming
(1 Thessalonians 4:15-17).

Click to expand...

please identify the elders in rev 4-5
... I can show in scripture that this is the church waiting for the marriage supper ...

The whole point of 2 Thessalonians 2:1-4 is that Jesus can't come
and gather together (rapture) the church until sometime after
there's an apostasy and the Antichrist commits the abomination of
desolation. [/QUOTE]
saved by grace ... eph 2:8-9
growing by grace ... 2 peter 3:18
judged in grace ... 1 peter 1:13
[QUOTE]It would make no sense at all to read 2 Thessalonians
2:1-4 as meaning that Jesus can't come and gather together the
church until sometime after Jesus comes and gathers together the
church.

Jesus won't come and gather together the church until after the
tribulation (Matthew 24:29-31).

Click to expand...

church is a mystery to the jews still ...... in Matt
[QUOT-E]That's why the marriage doesn't
happen until Revelation 19:7, [/QUOTE]
#1 2 cor 11:2
#2 Wedding party.. groom getting the bride eph 5:25-27
#3 wedding feast .... rev 19:9

after the tribulation of Revelation
chapters 6-18. When Jesus comes to gather together and marry the
church he'll destroy the Antichrist (2 Thessalonians 2:1,8, Revelation
19:7,20). Before Jesus comes the church will have to go through the
reign of the Antichrist (Revelation 13:7-10, 14:12-13, 20:4), through
the tribulation (Matthew 24:9-13).

Click to expand...

rev 4:4... promises to church

rev 5:9-11 defines who are elders
rev 5:9 states We tell Jesus that He is only worthy to Judge .. Great Trib

Nowhere does any scripture ever teach a pre-tribulation rapture. It's
a fable contrary to the sound, Biblical doctrine (2 Timothy 4:2-4) of
the post-tribulation rapture (Matthew 24:29-31).

Click to expand...

To understand the mysteries ... 1 cor 13:2... one must submit to the Lord ... eph 5:18-33, 2 tim 2:22-26

A pre-tribulation rapture is a false hope which could cause some of
its adherents to become "offended" when they find themselves in the
tribulation (Matthew 24:10, cf. 13:21), to the point where they
could commit apostasy (apostasia, 2 Thessalonians 2:3), fall away
from the faith (Luke 8:13, 1 Timothy 4:1, Hebrews 3:12), even curse
God during the tribulation (Isaiah 8:21-22, contrast 1 Peter 4:12-13).

Instead, God has told the church everything that it will have to face
during the tribulation (Mark 13:23, Revelation 1:1, 22:16) so that the
church might prepare itself to endure the coming tribulation with
patience and faith unto the end (Revelation 13:10, 14:12-13,
Matthew 24:13).

How the false idea of a pre-tribulation rapture weakens the church!
How it undermines the patience and faith of the church, getting the
church thinking that it won't have to endure a single moment of the
tribulation. How it leaves the church unprepared to go through that
terrible time. The lie of the pre-tribulation rapture can be only from
the father of lies himself (John 8:44b); it can only be a Trojan horse
brought within the church to ultimately defeat some in the church
during the coming tribulation.

Click to expand...

Does anyone deserve getting saved.. no .... grace

May God deliver us all from the lie of the pre-tribulation rapture.

---

Revelation 7:11 doesn't say that the 24 elders aren't angels, but are
the church, just as it doesnt say that the four beasts aren't angels,
but are the church. Where Revelation 7:11 says "all the angels", it
could mean "all the other angels" besides the 24 elders and four
beasts mentioned in the same verse

Click to expand...

rev 7:11And all the #1 angels stood round about the throne, and [about] the #2 elders and the #3 four beasts, and fell before the throne on their faces, and worshipped God,

argue with scripture

, just as where Hebrews 13:24
says "all the saints", it means "all the other saints" besides "them
that have the rule over you" mentioned in the same verse, for "them
that have the rule over you" are also saints (Hebrews 13:7,17).

Click to expand...

Heb 12:23 To the #1 general assembly and church of the firstborn, which are written in heaven, and to God the Judge of all, and to #2 the spirits of just men made perfect

two different groups ....

---

2 Thessalonians 2:1-4 does have reference to 1 Thessalonians
4:15-17, for they both refer to Jesus' coming and gathering together
(rapture) of the church.

Click to expand...

I know
context has nothing to do with scripture
just kidding

But the whole point of 2 Thessalonians 2:1-4 is to counter the false
idea that 1 Thessalonians 4:15-17 can happen before there's an
apostasy and the Antichrist commits the abomination of desolation.

To try to convert the apostasy into the rapture would be to turn the
whole intent of 2 Thessalonians 2:1-4 onto its head. And we know
who loves to turn the things of God upside down.

---

The Bible doesn't define who the 24 elders are. They could be angels.
No scripture says or requires that they're the church.

Click to expand...

Rev 7:11 And#1 all the angels stood round about the throne, and [about] #2 the elders and the #3 four beasts, and fell before the throne on their faces, and worshipped God,

three different groups...
argue with scripture

---

The OT saints have now already received and will receive all of the
promises given to the NT saints, for the OT saints all died in faith

Click to expand...

Context ....

heb 11:39 And these all, having obtained a good report through faith, received not the promise:

40 God having provided some better thing for us, that they without us should not be made perfect.


once again argue with scripture

(Hebrews 11:13), and now all those with faith have become part of
the one body of Christ, the church (Ephesians 4:4-5).

For after Jesus' resurrection, he went down into Hades and preached
the completion of the gospel to all of the OT saints (1 Peter 4:6,
3:19). At that moment they became the same as NT saints,
believers in exactly the same thing as NT saints (1 Corinthians
15:1-4), so that Jesus could then draw all of their souls up into
heaven (Ephesians 4:8-9) to be part of the church in heaven
(Hebrews 12:22-24), thereby fulfilling the hope of the OT saints that
they had way back in OT times (Hebrews 11:16).

Click to expand...

Yet that woul make God a lier...
Eternal life for OT saints Dan 12:2,11-12 after 2nd coming
Eternal life for the Church 1 john 5:11-13 right now

All Hebrews 11:40 means is that the OT saints couldn't have their
heavenly hope fulfilled until the NT church had come into existence
through the death of Jesus Christ on the cross and his rising from
the dead on the third day (Matthew 26:28, Hebrews 9:15, 12:23-24).

---

No scripture says that the church doesn't need to know about the
day of the Lord. The day of the Lord will begin at the second coming
(1 Corinthians 1:7-8), when the church will rejoice (2 Corinthians
1:14, Philippians 2:16).

1 Thessalonians 5:1-6 simply means that Jesus' second coming
(Revelation 16:15, 19:7-21), after the tribulation (Matthew
24:29-31), won't take the church by surprise, because the church
will have been watching (staying awake, spiritually) for that coming
(Matthew 24:43, cf. Revelation 3:3).

---

Nothing in 1 Thessalonians 4:14-17 says or requires that the second
coming and rapture will be before the tribulation.

Click to expand...

Just notice..church taken away 1 thes 4:16-18

1 thes 5:1 But of the times and the seasons, brethren, ye have no need that I write unto you.'

why We are in heaven doing priestly service ... Glorified

---

The day of Christ and the day of the Lord are the same day, the
day of the Lord Jesus Christ, the second coming that the church is
waiting for (1 Corinthians 1:7-8) and will rejoice in (1 Thessalonians
2:19).

Click to expand...

Day of Christ ... points to resurrection

Day of the Lord ... points to Judgement
where the Church get to take part in 1 cor 6:2

---

Isaiah 13:9 is referring to the wrath-part of the second coming
(Revelation 19:15), which will occur on the same day as the rapture
and marriage part of the second coming (Revelation 19:7).

---

Jeremiah 46:10 refers to an ancient day of the Lord which occurred
at the river Euphrates, when Pharaohnecho king of Egypt was
defeated by Nebuchadrezzar king of Babylon (Jeremiah 46:2).

---

Lamentations 2:22, Ezekiel 7:19, and Zephaniah 1:14,18, 2:2 refer
to an ancient day of the Lord's anger, when he destroyed Jerusalem
and Judah (Lamentations 2:1-22, Ezekiel 7:2-27, Zephaniah 1:1-2:2)
by the hand of Nebuchadnezzar king of Babylon (Jeremiah 34:1-2).

---

Joel 2:11 refers to an ancient day of the Lord when he sent an army
of locusts and other plant-destroying insects into Israel (Joel 2:25)
sometime before Pentecost occurred (Joel 2:28, Acts 2:16-17).

---

Obadiah 1:15 could refer to the retribution-part of the second
coming (Revelation 19:11-21).

---

The second coming will be a bad day for the unsaved and a good
day for the saved (2 Thessalonians 1:7-10, 1 Peter 1:13, 4:13b).

Click to expand...

Then why do all people mourn.. matt 24:30

---

Romans 5:9, 9:22-24, and 1 Thessalonians 1:10, 5:9 mean that no
one who has obtained salvation can be appointed to God's wrath.
So all those in the church who will live to enter into and go through
the tribulation (Matthew 24:9-13, Revelation 13:7-10, 14:12-13,
20:4) won't be appointed to God's wrath during that time.

---

1 Corinthians 15:22-23 shows that the resurrection of the church
can't happen until the second coming of Jesus (1 Thessalonians
4:14-16, Revelation 20:4-6). And the second coming of Jesus won't
happen until after the tribulation (Matthew 24:29-31, Revelation
19:7-21).

1 Corinthians 15:24-26 refers to the great white throne judgment
(Revelation 20:11-15), which won't happen until after the millennium
and the battle of Gog and Magog (Revelation 20:7-9, cf. Ezekiel
chapters 38-39).

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Romans 8:23 means that the church has the firstfruits of the Spirit.

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Yet the 144,000 are firstfruit also.. rev 14:4

both are but to different groups

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The firstborn in Hebrews 12:23 is Jesus (Hebrews 1:6, Romans 8:29,
Colossians 1:15,18, Revelation 1:5).

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And we are Jesus Christ Body as He is the head... eph 1:22-23, 1 cor 12:12-13 place by the spirit

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1 Corinthians 12:12-13 means that those in the church have been
baptized into the body of Christ.

Ephesians 1:22-23 means that the body of Christ is the church, and
that Jesus is the head of the body.

Ephesians 2:15 is part of a passage which shows that all Gentiles
in the church have been made fellowcitizens in Israel (Ephesians
2:12-19).

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Those in Christ's body are made partakers of Christ's sufferings;
that, when his glory shall be revealed, they may be glad also with
exceeding joy (1 Peter 4:13).

Unto those in Christ's body it is given in the behalf of Christ, not
only to believe on him, but also to suffer for his sake (Philippians
1:29, Revelation 2:10, Matthew 24:9-13, Revelation 20:7-10,
14:12-13, 20:4).

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Christ suffered on the cross.... when wrath comes we are with him

While Christ suffered on the cross, to the church "it is given in the
behalf of Christ, not only to believe on him, but also to suffer for his
sake" (Philippians 1:29).

The church will suffer in the tribulation for his sake (Matthew 24:9-13).

Some in the church will suffer in the tribulation at the hands of
a wrathful Satan and evil men (Revelation 12:17, 13:7-10,
14:12-13, 20:4), just as some in the church have always suffered at
the hands of Satan and evil men (e.g. Revelation 2:10, Acts 7:59).

But no one in the church will suffer God's wrath in the tribulation, for
no one who has obtained salvation is appointed to suffer God's wrath
(1 Thessalonians 5:9).

During the final stage of the tribulation, the vials of God's wrath
(Revelation 16), some in the church will still be alive on the earth,
still waiting for Jesus' coming as a thief (Revelation 16:15). They
won't suffer God's wrath, but will instead go into protective
chambers which they'll have built for themselves on the earth
(Isaiah 26:20), just as Noah and his family went into the ark which
they'd built for themselves on the earth.

And after the vials of God's wrath are over, at the second coming
the entire church will be raptured into the clouds to meet Jesus in
the air (1 Thessalonians 4:15-17, Revelation 19:7) before he begins
his second-coming wrath upon the unsaved world (Revelation 19:11-21).

---

Ephesians 2:8-9, 2 Peter 3:18, and 1 Peter 1:13 don't contradict
the fact that the whole point of 2 Thessalonians 2:1-4 is that Jesus
can't come and gather together (rapture) the church until sometime
after there's an apostasy and the Antichrist commits the abomination
of desolation.

While the church is saved by grace (Ephesians 2:8), and is growing
in grace (2 Peter 3:18), it must still hope to the end for the grace
that is to be brought unto it at the revelation of Jesus Christ
(1 Peter 1:13), which won't happen until after the tribulation
(Matthew 24:29-31). So the church will have to go through the
tribulation.

"Beloved, think it not strange concerning the fiery trial which is to
try you, as though some strange thing happened unto you: But
rejoice, inasmuch as ye are partakers of Christ's sufferings; that,
when his glory shall be revealed, ye may be glad also with exceeding
joy" (1 Peter 4:12-13).

"He that leadeth into captivity shall go into captivity: he that killeth
with the sword must be killed with the sword. Here is the patience
and the faith of the saints" (Revelation 13:10).

"Here is the patience of the saints: here are they that keep the
commandments of God, and the faith of Jesus" (Revelation 14:12).

---

Just as the Greek word for "faith" isn't in 2 Thessalonians 2:3, so the
Greek word for "earth" isn't in 2 Thessalonians 2:3. So one can't
claim that the falling away (apostasia) in 2 Thessalonians 2:3 can't
be an apostasy, a falling away or departure from the faith, because
the Greek word for "faith" isn't in 2 Thessalonians 2:3; yet then turn
around and claim that the falling away (apostasia) in
2 Thessalonians 2:3 is a departure from the earth, when the Greek
word for "earth" isn't in 2 Thessalonians 2:3 either.

There will be a departure from the faith (1 Timothy 4:1), but the
entire church won't depart from the earth (Proverbs 10:30, John
17:15,20).

The rapture will take the church only as high as the clouds to meet
Jesus in the sky on his way down to the earth at his second coming
(1 Thessalonians 4:15-17). And this won't happen until after the
tribulation (Matthew 24:29-31); that's why the wedding ceremony
doesn't happen until Revelation 19:7, after the tribulation of
Revelation chapters 6-18.

2 Thessalonians 2:1-4 is in perfect agreement with this, for its whole
point is that Jesus won't come to gather together (rapture) the
church until sometime after there's an apostasy in the church, which
will occur during the tribulation (Matthew 24:9-13).

Trying to make the apostasy the rapture makes complete nonsense
of 2 Thessalonians 2:1-4, for it makes 2 Thessalonians 2:1-4 say
that Jesus won't come to rapture the church until sometime after
the rapture.

What 2 Thessalonians 2:1-4 actually and so clearly says is that not
only the apostasy has to happen before the rapture, but both the
apostasy and the Antichrist sitting in the temple and proclaiming
himself God has to happen before the rapture. For when Jesus comes
to rapture and marry the church he'll destroy the Antichrist
(2 Thessalonians 2:1,8, Revelation 19:7,20). The church will go
through the reign of the Antichrist (Revelation 13:7-10, 14:12-13,
20:4).

---

Philippians 3:20 doesn't contradict the fact that the church won't
be removed from the earth (Proverbs 10:30, John 17:15,20); it
simply says that the citizenship of believers is now in heaven. For
the citizenship of believers is in the city of New Jerusalem, which is
now in heaven (Hebrews 12:22).

Believers now go into heaven to be with Jesus when they die
(Philippians 1:21,23, 2 Corinthians 5:8). But not all believers will die
by the time of the second coming (1 Corinthians 15:51-53). Those
which are "alive and remain" will be caught up together (raptured)
into the clouds along with all resurrected believers (1 Thessalonians
4:15-17), so that the entire church might be judged (Psalms 50:4-5,
cf. Mark 13:27) and then married (Revelation 19:7) in the clouds
before mounting white horses and descending back down from the
sky (the first heaven) with Jesus (Revelation 19:14) as he wages
war against all the armies of the world (Revelation 19:19-21) and
then sets up his millennial kingdom on the earth, in which the church
will reign on the earth with him for 1,000 years (Revelation 20:4-6,
5:10, 2:26-29).

After the millennium, the battle of Gog and Magog, and the great
white throne judgment (Revelation 20:7-15), a new earth will be
created, and New Jerusalem will descend from heaven to the new
earth, and then the entire church will live in New Jerusalem
(Revelation 21:1-4).

---

When 1 Thessalonians 4:17 says "and so shall we ever be with the
Lord" after the rapture, this doesn't contradict the fact that the
church won't be removed from the earth (Proverbs 10:30, John
17:15,20); it simply means that from the time of the rapture the
church will remain wherever Jesus is from the time of the rapture
forward: the church will be with Jesus in the clouds after the
rapture, then descend back down to be with him on the earth during
the millennium (Revelation 20:4-6, 5:10, 2:26-29), then be
with him through the battle of Gog and Magog and the great white
throne judgment (Revelation 20:7-15), then be with him on the new
earth in the New Jerusalem descended from heaven (Revelation
21:1-4).

---

While the church was still a mystery to the Jews at the time that
Matthew 24 was spoken, Matthew 24 is still applicable to the
church, just as John 3:16 is still applicable to the church, even
though the church was still a mystery to the Jews at the time that
John 3:16 was spoken.

---

2 Corinthians 11:2 and Ephesians 5:25-27 don't contradict the fact
that the actual wedding ceremony won't happen until Revelation
19:7, after the tribulation of Revelation chapters 6-18, just as the
rapture won't happen until after the tribulation (Matthew 24:29-31).

The wedding feast of Revelation 19:9 will occur on the earth after
the second coming (Isaiah 25:6-9).

1 Corinthians 15:54b is quoting from Isaiah 25:8, showing that the
earthly feast of Isaiah 25:6-9 will be in connection with the
resurrection of the church, which won't happen until the second
coming (1 Corinthians 15:22-23,51,54, 1 Thessalonians 4:15-16,
Revelation 20:4-6).

---

1 Corinthians 13:2, Ephesians 5:18-33, and 2 Timothy 2:22 don't
contradict the fact that nowhere does any scripture ever teach a
pre-tribulation rapture, or the fact that it's a fable contrary to the
sound, Biblical doctrine (2 Timothy 4:2-4) of the post-tribulation
rapture (Matthew 24:29-31).

---

Nothing in the context of 2 Thessalonians 2:1-4 or 1 Thessalonians
4:15-17 contradicts the fact that 2 Thessalonians 2:1-4 does have
reference to 1 Thessalonians 4:15-17, for they both refer to Jesus'
coming and gathering together (rapture) of the church.

---

Nothing in 1 Thessalonians 4:16-18 or 1 Thessalonians 5:1
contradicts the fact that 1 Thessalonians 4:14-17 doesn't say or
require that the second coming and rapture will be before the
tribulation.

And neither 1 Thessalonians 4:14-17 nor 1 Thessalonians 5:1 says
or requires that the rapture will take the church any higher than the
clouds to meet Jesus in the air on his way down to the earth at his
second coming.

---

The day of Christ (Philippians 1:10) is the same as the day of the
Lord (1 Thessalonians 5:2); it's the day of the Lord Jesus Christ
(1 Corinthians 1:8), which won't begin until his second coming,
which the church is waiting for (1 Corinthians 1:7-8).

At the second coming will occur both the resurrection of the church
(1 Corinthians 15:22-23,52-53, 1 Thessalonians 4:14-16, Revelation
20:4-6) and the judgment of the church (1 Corinthians 4:5,
2 Corinthians 5:10, Psalms 50:4-5, cf. Mark 13:27), before Jesus
commences his second-coming judgment upon the unsaved world
(Revelation 19:11-21).

---

It's only the unsaved world that's mourning in Matthew 24:30, not
the church that's gathered together (raptured) in Matthew 24:31.

The second coming will at the same time be a bad day for the
unsaved world and a good day for the church (2 Thessalonians
1:7-10).

---

1 Corinthians 6:2 pertains to the church's judging of the world
during the millennium (Revelation 20:4-6, 5:10, 2:26-29), judging in
the sense of ruling, like the judges (rulers) in the book of Judges.

Nothing in Romans 8:23, Revelation 14:4, Ephesians 1:22-23, or
1 Corinthians 12:13 requires that the 144,000 aren't part of the
church.

Romans 8:23 simply means that the church, including the 144,000,
has the firstfruits of the Spirit. The 144,000 must have the Spirit,
for they are Christ's (Revelation 14:4), and anyone without the
Spirit is none of his (Romans 8:9). And anyone with the Spirit is part
his body, the church (1 Corinthians 12:13).

The 144,000 are at the same time from the twelve tribes of Israel
(Revelation 7:4) and the firstfruits of the church (Revelation 14:4),
for they are all believers (Revelation 14:4), and all believers are part
of the body of Christ, the church (Ephesians 4:4-5).

All believers are part of the twelve tribes of Israel, for all Jewish
believers remain members of the tribes in which they were born
(Romans 11:1), and all Gentile believers have been grafted into
Israel (Romans 11:17,24, Ephesians 2:12,19, Galatians 3:29), and
so have been grafted into its various tribes (cf. Ezekiel 47:21-23).

This is necessary because the church is saved by the new covenant
(Matthew 26:28, 1 Corinthians 11:25, 2 Corinthians 3:6, Hebrews
9:15), and the new covenant is made only with Israel (Jeremiah
31:31-34).

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The Bible doesn't say who the 24 elders are (Revelation 4:4). They
could be angels. No scripture says or requires that they're the
church.

Angels can wear white clothing (John 20:12, Revelation 15:6). And
if even some demonic locusts can wear crowns (Revelation 9:7), then
some angels could certainly wear crowns.

In Revelation 5:8-10, both the four beasts and the 24 elders are
singing, and nothing they sing requires that the four beasts and the
24 elders are the church, for they could be offering up in song "the
prayers of saints" (Revelation 5:8b), just as later we see an angel
offering up "the prayers of all saints" (Revelation 8:3).

In Revelation 7:11, "all the angels" being mentioned separately from
the 24 elders doesn't require that the 24 elders aren't also angels,
just as, for example, in Hebrews 13:24, "all the saints" being
mentioned separately from "them that have the rule over you"
doesn't require that "them that have the rule over you" aren't also
saints (Hebrews 13:7). In both cases, "all the", in its context, can
mean "all the other".

No one can argue with scripture itself, but what the scripture itself
actually requires must be distinguished from what someone may
incorrectly want it to require.

---

Hebrews 12:23 doesn't mean that "the spirits of just men made
perfect" aren't part of "the general assembly and church of the
firstborn", for men can be just and perfect only through faith in the
shed blood of Jesus Christ (Romans 3:25-26, Hebrews 10:14, 7:19),
and everyone who has faith in Jesus is part of his body, the church
(Ephesians 4:4-5).

In Hebrews 12:23, The Greek word translated as "AND to the spirits
of just men made perfect" can be translated as "EVEN" (e.g. Hebrews
11:19).

---

Nothing in Hebrews 11:39-40 or its context says or requires that the
OT saints aren't now part of the church.

The OT saints were given the same promise as the rest of the
church: the promise of the city of New Jerusalem (Hebrews 11:10,16).

Hebrews 11:39 simply means that the OT saints didn't go into the
city of New Jerusalem back in OT times. They instead went down
into Hades when they died, for the new covenant blood of Christ
had not yet been shed by which they might be made perfect and so
be allowed to enter into New Jerusalem (Hebrews 12:22-24).

But after his resurrection, Jesus went down into Hades and
preached the completion of the new covenant gospel to the souls
of the OT saints (1 Peter 3:19, 4:6). He then drew them all up into
heaven (Ephesians 4:8-9), into New Jerusalem (Hebrews 12:22-24).

So in Hebrews 11:40, "God having provided some better thing for us"
in no way means that the NT-saints part of the church receives
anything better than the OT-saints part of the church. It must simply
mean that things are better for the NT saints when they die insofar
as they don't have to first go down into Hades like the OT saints had
to back in OT times. Instead, NT saints go immediately into heaven
to be with Jesus when they die (Philippians 1:21,23, 2 Corinthians 5:8).

In Hebrews 11:40, "that they without us should not be made
perfect" simply means that the OT saints couldn't be made perfect
before the NT saints became perfect, through the shed blood of Christ
(Hebrews 10:14).

Once again, no one can argue with scripture, but what the scripture
actually means must be distinguished from what someone may
incorrectly want it to mean.

---

Nothing in Daniel 12:2,11-12 or 1 John 5:11-13 contradicts the fact
that the OT saints are now part of the church, for both Daniel
12:2,11-12 and 1 John 5:11-13 apply to both the OT saints and the
rest of the church.

The entire church, including the OT saints, will be resurrected at the
second coming (1 Corinthians 15:22-23,52-53, 1 Thessalonians
4:14-16, Revelation 20:4-6), which won't happen until after the
tribulation (Matthew 24:29-31, Revelation 19:7-21).

1 John 5:11-13 means that the entire church, including the OT
saints, already has eternal life spiritually through faith in Jesus.

But the entire church, including the OT saints, is still hoping and
waiting for bodily eternal life (Romans 8:23-25, Titus 1:2, 3:7) at
the second coming.

Daniel 12:11-12 (cf. Revelation 16:15, 19:7-20:6) could mean that
the entire church, including the OT saints, must wait until the
1,335th day after the abomination of desolation for the second
coming and resurrection to occur.

Mid to post, see my posts else where, dare not read, no, no, lol, no debates, no arguing, lol.

yet you are in a satanic attack and will not let go ...