Christians and the Government (Romans 13)

Status
Not open for further replies.

emilylauren

Newbie
Jan 9, 2009
215
20
✟7,936.00
Faith
Lutheran
Marital Status
Single
Politics
US-Libertarian
1Everyone must submit himself to the governing authorities, for there is no authority except that which God has established. The authorities that exist have been established by God. 2Consequently, he who rebels against the authority is rebelling against what God has instituted, and those who do so will bring judgment on themselves. 3For rulers hold no terror for those who do right, but for those who do wrong. Do you want to be free from fear of the one in authority? Then do what is right and he will commend you. 4For he is God's servant to do you good. But if you do wrong, be afraid, for he does not bear the sword for nothing. He is God's servant, an agent of wrath to bring punishment on the wrongdoer. 5Therefore, it is necessary to submit to the authorities, not only because of possible punishment but also because of conscience. 6This is also why you pay taxes, for the authorities are God's servants, who give their full time to governing. 7Give everyone what you owe him: If you owe taxes, pay taxes; if revenue, then revenue; if respect, then respect; if honor, then honor. (New International Version)

I guess my quesiton about this passage is what exactly it means in terms of Christians and the way we interact with the government. Does it mean that we are supposed to keep every law (save, of course, for those that go directly against God's law). And if we are required to keep these man-made laws, does that mean that we sin by breaking them?

The other idea I get from this passage is that Paul is telling us that secular governments have the authority to uphold laws-- so, for example, they can sentence a man to death for violatation of the law. Therefore, we must respect their authority in upholding and creating their laws and not resort to uprisings or anarchy because we believe we are not under the punishing power of the state, but only of God.

So, under this assumption, it wouldn't nessecarily be a sin to break the speed limit, but it would be a sin to reject the idea that the police officer who pulls you over has the right to give you a ticket?

This is a topic I've been struggling with lately. On the one hand I don't see myself as one who would be generally lawless and going around breaking rules just for the purpose of breaking them. However, I also know that lately, as a result of this passage, I've become fairly neurotic about whether or not I'm keeping all man-made laws accurately, and I feel as though it is draining me both spiritually and pysically. I don't want to use that as an excuse to not follow the law if this is what Paul is really asking us to do-- I just want to know if this is really what Paul is asking here.

Thanks in advance to everyone who responds. I would be very greatful for anyone's interpretation. :]

--Emily
 

chosenpath

Senior Veteran
Sep 29, 2008
2,153
322
Florida
✟11,367.00
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Married
I'm going to ask you to look at this Roman's scripture from a different vantage point.

What do you think might happen to a person and other people spiritually if they do not take heed to this principle.

For example a person breaks a certain law of the government and gets away with it and because they get away with it they gain financially and materially. Now their Brother and Sisters see this and wonder why when they are trying to follow bible principle in doing what is right with God they are struggling to survive. If they are in the beginning stages of their faith they might doubt God and follow this bad example and what happens if they don't get away with breaking the law. The little faith they may have had that could have grown stronger and taken deep root now becomes non-existent. So now not only has the orginal person who disregarded this principle stumbled others but in doing so has broken the commandment to love thy neighbor as thy self. There are alot of laws that are broken today that spead like gangrene because more and more people don't get caught. Unfortunately majority rules and the majority will end up paying the consequences.

Matthew 7:13
"Enter by the narrow gate; for wide [is] the gate and broad [is] the way that leads to destruction, and there are many who go in by it.

Matthew 22:37-38
Jesus said to him, " 'You shall love the LORD your God with all your heart, with all your soul, and with all your mind.' This is [the] first and great commandment. And [the] second [is] like it: 'You shall love your neighbor as yourself

Mark 9:42
But whoever causes one of these little ones who believe in Me to stumble, it would be better for him if a millstone were hung around his neck, and he were thrown into the sea.
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0

emilylauren

Newbie
Jan 9, 2009
215
20
✟7,936.00
Faith
Lutheran
Marital Status
Single
Politics
US-Libertarian
I think that is an excellent way of viewing that passsage, and I must admit that I had not thought of it in exactly that regard before now. Thank you. ^_^

However, I do question the sort of law that could be broken that would directly result in financial or material gain that wouldn't already go against God's law. Wouldn't that already be a form of stealing? Or am I simply not being creative enough to think of a 'lesser' law that could still result in gain?

I realize that as a Christian all of our actions should have more forthought as to how we will affect the people around us. However, is it breaking the law itself that would be sinful or is it the negative outcome that is?
 
Upvote 0

StreetPreacher82

Walking from the valley to the mountain...</br><b>
Site Supporter
Dec 17, 2008
728
59
✟1,130.00
Faith
Baptist
Marital Status
Married
I think that is an excellent way of viewing that passsage, and I must admit that I had not thought of it in exactly that regard before now. Thank you. ^_^

However, I do question the sort of law that could be broken that would directly result in financial or material gain that wouldn't already go against God's law. Wouldn't that already be a form of stealing? Or am I simply not being creative enough to think of a 'lesser' law that could still result in gain?

I realize that as a Christian all of our actions should have more forthought as to how we will affect the people around us. However, is it breaking the law itself that would be sinful or is it the negative outcome that is?

I think we must also factor in that these folks did not live under a democracy. They were all ultimately under the authority of Caesar, so there was no room to call the government to the carpet. We are blessed to live in a democracy where difference of opinion is cherished. Therefore, we should always submit as the law requires, but should not bridle ourselves as our government does not require us to.

That make sense? :confused:
 
Upvote 0

chosenpath

Senior Veteran
Sep 29, 2008
2,153
322
Florida
✟11,367.00
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Married
I think that is an excellent way of viewing that passsage, and I must admit that I had not thought of it in exactly that regard before now. Thank you. ^_^

However, I do question the sort of law that could be broken that would directly result in financial or material gain that wouldn't already go against God's law. Wouldn't that already be a form of stealing? Or am I simply not being creative enough to think of a 'lesser' law that could still result in gain?

Yes, see how that works. It could also be seen a coveting (Deuteronomy 6:21). Its important because some of the laws of man don't seem like breaking one of God's commandments but i'll bet if you take a good hard look at some laws you'll find where more than one commandment indeed can be broken.

The traffic violation of speeding doesn't really seem like breaking one of God's commandments. But what happens if the person in front of you suddenly stops and you rear end them?



I realize that as a Christian all of our actions should have more forthought as to how we will affect the people around us. However, is it breaking the law itself that would be sinful or is it the negative outcome that is?

Thats why I gave this example because its both.
Romans 13:5
Therefore, it is necessary to submit to the authorities, not only because of possible punishment but also because of conscience.

Ask yourself is being neurotic the same as being conscientious?
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0

emilylauren

Newbie
Jan 9, 2009
215
20
✟7,936.00
Faith
Lutheran
Marital Status
Single
Politics
US-Libertarian
Yes, see how that works. It could also be seen a coveting (Deuteronomy 6:21). Its important because some of the laws of man don't seem like breaking one of God's commandments but i'll bet if you take a good hard look at some laws you'll find where more than one commandment indeed can be broken.

And I think it also ties back into how many actions, even ones that are 'harmless' or legal could also be bringing one to break one of God's commandments-- or at least teetering close to the edge of it.

Romans 13:5
Therefore, it is necessary to submit to the authorities, not only because of possible punishment but also because of conscience.


Ask yourself is being neurotic the same as being conscientious?

Well, for me no. It actually is being rather neurotic. :p To the point where I have wondered in the past if even going a few miles over the speed limit would be sinning. (Yet, by constantly braking, I'm sure I annoyed and disturbed quite a few people behind me. >.>)

I think we must also factor in that these folks did not live under a democracy. They were all ultimately under the authority of Caesar, so there was no room to call the government to the carpet. We are blessed to live in a democracy where difference of opinion is cherished. Therefore, we should always submit as the law requires, but should not bridle ourselves as our government does not require us to.

And also to know that we have been provided with legal ways of showing our disproval with the goverment, in the form of (peaceful) public protest is also something I believe we should be thankful of. It brings to mind the public riots that have gone on in California in response to the shooting of an unarmed man by police officers. Clearly the actions the officer took were not proper or moral, but I don't think the public response has been either. A state of anarchy in response to wrongdoing isn't going to solve anything-- and makes those people look bad.
 
Upvote 0

chosenpath

Senior Veteran
Sep 29, 2008
2,153
322
Florida
✟11,367.00
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Married
And I think it also ties back into how many actions, even ones that are 'harmless' or legal could also be bringing one to break one of God's commandments-- or at least teetering close to the edge of it.

Thats a concept you learn after understanding starts to sink in.

Well, for me no. It actually is being rather neurotic. :p To the point where I have wondered in the past if even going a few miles over the speed limit would be sinning. (Yet, by constantly braking, I'm sure I annoyed and disturbed quite a few people behind me. >.>)

lol, i've been guilty of that myself.


And also to know that we have been provided with legal ways of showing our disproval with the goverment, in the form of (peaceful) public protest is also something I believe we should be thankful of. It brings to mind the public riots that have gone on in California in response to the shooting of an unarmed man by police officers. Clearly the actions the officer took were not proper or moral, but I don't think the public response has been either. A state of anarchy in response to wrongdoing isn't going to solve anything-- and makes those people look bad.

Two wrong will never equal a right.
 
Upvote 0

StreetPreacher82

Walking from the valley to the mountain...</br><b>
Site Supporter
Dec 17, 2008
728
59
✟1,130.00
Faith
Baptist
Marital Status
Married
And also to know that we have been provided with legal ways of showing our disproval with the goverment, in the form of (peaceful) public protest is also something I believe we should be thankful of. It brings to mind the public riots that have gone on in California in response to the shooting of an unarmed man by police officers. Clearly the actions the officer took were not proper or moral, but I don't think the public response has been either. A state of anarchy in response to wrongdoing isn't going to solve anything-- and makes those people look bad.

I could not agree more. However, I never intended, personally, to include folks who still went out of their way to break the law (i.e. violent protesters).
 
Upvote 0

Jamey

Newbie
Oct 11, 2008
76
4
57
✟15,218.00
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
The more I study Jesus, the more it seems to me that He was not a political figure. But I see stuff like "Jesus for president" blah blah blah. I won't dare dirty my faith with politics. We won't change a God-less government with rally's or getting in bed with one party or the other. This country will only change when the church becomes the church and start converting ppl one at a time. We act like this is the most difficult time in history to convert someone yet look at the first christians. I believe they had a far worse time. But they had something we don't seem to have anymore, a true church and a true understanding of what the great commision was.

I'm sorry for being such a downer about this. I'm just tired of hearing that "one nation under God" means that we are the "only nation under God". Every nation is under God. Jesus wasn't an american, despite what some may think. When we concentrate on reaching those who need to be reached, on following the life Jesus showed us to live. To quit being a cliche that the world can use as a late night talk show joke, then we shall see this country change.
J.
 
Upvote 0

Big Tuck

Junior Member
Feb 4, 2005
32
7
38
✟188.00
Faith
Baptist
Marital Status
In Relationship
Politics
US-Republican
hello, wow it's been awhile since I've last posted...

I've been thinking about this a bit lately as well in Regards to Romans 13. I guess the big picture of the passage is to be reliant upon God's sovereignty. When it was written, Christians were most likely wondering if they should be submissive to the governing authorities as in all reality they were ultimately accountable before God rather than people. I believe the Holy Spirit wants us to see that the people who are in authority over us aren't there by accident, but that they have been appointed by God (Rom. 13:2). There may be human consequences to pay for breaking the law, but ultimately a breaking of laws that don't oppose God's word would be sin against God as all sin is against God and He is the one whom we are ultimately accountable towards. But I think the big picture that Paul painted for us was to rest in God's Sovereign rule and reign and to trust Him. To go against lawful things from the government is like saying we don't trust God's sovereignty to satisafactorally govern over us and that our will is greater than God's will.

That doesn't mean we follow everything that they put into law either. Think of Shadrach Meshach and Abednago w/ King Nebuchadnezzar. They violated the kings decree and wouldn't bow down before the statue, but they were right to do so as to follow the kings decree would lead them into sin against God, whom they truly were accountable to.
 
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

X=?

A voice crying in the wilderness.
Dec 12, 2008
174
13
UK
Visit site
✟7,870.00
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
In Relationship
The only submission that rings bells with authority is in that Jesus said something about Caesar having what is Caesars regarding money. I've struggled with the submit to governing authorities etc. The point is the bible can be used to argue perception or viewpoint, I earnestly ask that you see clarification with Gods spirit. Human will wise we can see what we like or sometimes even what we want.

God gave his spirit to guide us, its there for a reason.

PS on a side note I see your new American president has a new bullet proof limo labelled 'The Beast'. Interesting name.
 
Upvote 0
Status
Not open for further replies.