The "Success" Gospel

Texas Lynn · Jan 7, 2009

I'm surprised this school of Christianity, that that says prosperity and wealth are blessings on the faithful and conversely poverty and struggle are given to the unrighteous as articulated by Joel Osteen et al, has gained much of any following. But it has an especially strong following among the white lower middle class. Why is that, I wonder?

I'm reminded of this quote from the American patriot and conservative founding father, John Dickinson: "A poor man will pursue the dream of being rich rather than face the reality of being poor."

TheManeki · Jan 7, 2009

Oh, yeah. Isn't this an outgrowth of the Presbyterian idea of "the elect" receiving God's favor in earthly matters to reflect their receiving of God's favor in spiritual matters?

Down here in Atlanta, the church of the appropriately-named Rev. Creflo A. Dollar, another proponent of this kind of teaching, is fighting to not have its books examined.

D.W.Washburn · Jan 7, 2009

That people will commit themselves in wholehearted belief to a doctrine that affirms their worldview, gives them a sense of certainty or hope, even when that doctrine flies in the face of plain reason or observable fact, should not surprise anyone who has spent a little time reading these forums.

The Gospel of Prosperity is little more than wishful thinking, though it presents a sort of self-substantianting "proof." The preacher of prosperity is conspicuously prosperous.

What mystifies me is that anyone would mistake the Gospel of Prosperity for the message of Jesus of Nazareth, the Apostle Paul, or even historic Christianity.

Maybe Ray Stevens said it best:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=76ohvqwsNkk

+Zero+ · Jan 7, 2009

delete this one please, video i was going to post didn't come through...

but to make it fruitful, I would reccomend a video on youtube, just search John Piper on the Prosperity Gospel, what a great video it is

AzA · Jan 7, 2009

How is asking "Would Jesus wear a Rolex" different from asking "Would Jesus do co-ed swimming" or "Would Jesus endorse abstinence-only sex ed?" Would Jesus have an iPod? Would Jesus shop in Walmart? Would Jesus go to college? Would Jesus drive, period?

Anachronisms don't help us think about what Jesus *did* do, or how what he taught and lived can inform our lives -- your life, my life.

All humans are human and subject to God in the same way. And yet the teachings of Jesus inform our lives in very different ways than they do the lives of people living in the 10/40 Window.

We are so uber-blessed wherever we're typing from that Earth could not support our current lifestyles if someone were to gift those lifestyles to every human on the planet. Earth could not support it. Recession, complaints, and sidewards glances notwithstanding.

D.W.Washburn · Jan 8, 2009

AzA said:
How is asking "Would Jesus wear a Rolex" different from asking "Would Jesus do co-ed swimming" or "Would Jesus endorse abstinence-only sex ed?" Would Jesus have an iPod? Would Jesus shop in Walmart? Would Jesus go to college? Would Jesus drive, period?

Hi AzA:

Is your question for rhetorical effect, or would you like me to attempt an answer?

AzA · Jan 8, 2009

Respond as you're called. I don't mind our difference.

Texas Lynn · Jan 8, 2009

AzA what is the "10-40 window"? Is that the same as the Morocco-to-Indonesia range of cutures which primarily reject modernity?

D.W.Washburn · Jan 8, 2009

AzA said:
Respond as you're called. I don't mind our difference.

I'll let it ride, then. Though I'm going to give some thought as to whether Jesus would approve of co-ed swimming...

Lynn: The 10/40 window is a designation for the area between 10 degrees North and 40 degrees North of the equator. Missionaries use the term because that region is marked by an abundance of poverty and a lack of Christianity. Aza can correct me if I got any of the details wrong.

Adammi · Jan 9, 2009

I don't understand why Joel Osteen is often painted as the face of this movement. He is certainly a part of it, but much more moderate than most of the others. I disagree with him on many points, but he is certainly a friend to moderate-liberal Christians.

Have you heard of Creflo Dollar? Kenneth Copeland? Virtually every other televangelist besides Osteen?

They are the face of the movement as well as the problem.

Izdaari Eristikon · Jan 9, 2009

Adammi said:
I don't understand why Joel Osteen is often painted as the face of this movement. He is certainly a part of it, but much more moderate than most of the others. I disagree with him on many points, but he is certainly a friend to moderate-liberal Christians.

Have you heard of Creflo Dollar? Kenneth Copeland? Virtually every other televangelist besides Osteen?

They are the face of the movement as well as the problem.

Most of those folks belong to the Word of Faith movement, which is almost but not quite a denomination. It has the denominational distinctives, but not much formal organization. "Prosperity Gospel" is one of their distinctive doctrines but certainly not the only one.

True that Osteen is one of the most moderate of that bunch, even somewhat liberal. Most of them are very conservative, and would be called fundamentalist except that they go off on non-fundy doctrinal tangents.

Personally, the only WoF preacher I'm very fond of is Joseph Prince, and that's because he focuses on Grace rather than the other stuff (also he's way cute

). Joyce Meyer has a lot of good points too, being very common sense.

Some notable exceptions to the WoFiness of Daystar and TBN: Brian Houston (Assemblies of God - Izzy's church -, non-WoF), Jack Hayford (Foursquare, also non-WoF mainstream Pentecostal, not much different from AoG), Charles Stanley (Southern Baptist) and Michael Youssef (conservative Anglican). All those are conservative, but they're not Prosperity Gospel. I like all four.

Texas Lynn · Jan 9, 2009

RegularGuy said:
I'll let it ride, then. Though I'm going to give some thought as to whether Jesus would approve of co-ed swimming...

I've always considered the obsession some Baptists and evangelicals have about that and dancing to be particularly bizarre.

Lynn: The 10/40 window is a designation for the area between 10 degrees North and 40 degrees North of the equator. Missionaries use the term because that region is marked by an abundance of poverty and a lack of Christianity. Aza can correct me if I got any of the details wrong.

I see-kind of but not exactly. I've used the phrase Morocco-to-Indonesia corridor to mean just that, including Iraq, Syria, Pakistan, India, and Malaysia, because of the Islamic domination, social conservatism, and poverty of the region. Thailand is somewhat of an exception due to its having never been conquered by a European power in the 18th or 19th Century and its Buddhist heritage, but it is still very poor.

DavinMochrie · Jan 9, 2009

Copeland is an interesting fella. I've been watching his shows down under.

He strikes me as the type of person that only has one-way conversations (as in don't disagree with him).

He also yells out his sermons quite aggressively.

I can't help but think he has a lot of rage and anger that he's holding back behind his hard face.

AzA · Jan 9, 2009

Texas Lynn said:
I've used the phrase Morocco-to-Indonesia corridor to mean just that, including Iraq, Syria, Pakistan, India, and Malaysia, because of the Islamic domination, social conservatism, and poverty of the region. Thailand is somewhat of an exception due to its having never been conquered by a European power in the 18th or 19th Century and its Buddhist heritage, but it is still very poor.

Fair enough. The concept of the "10/40 window" came into use in the 1990s, and even my denomination (late to most parties) built aid-related campaigns around it. It fell out of favor during the High Season of Political Correctness, but has returned in this century with a more moderate and less religious base. The stats on the area have shifted significantly since the '90s but the experiences of said peoples are still illustrative.

(The wiki article is sparse and under review but it'll give you more background/criticism if you want it.)

Apollo Celestio · Jan 9, 2009

Makes you wonder what it is people really want. I can't say much, I haven't seen any of this in action. I go to a struggling church in the inner-city, so it would be alien to me.

catlover · Jan 12, 2009

Ishida said:
Makes you wonder what it is people really want. I can't say much, I haven't seen any of this in action. I go to a struggling church in the inner-city, so it would be alien to me.

Watch a Benny Hinn on Youtube-weird stuff...

plmarquette · Jan 16, 2009

so ....what is your spin......we all should be poor, live in a mobile home....and drive a car with body cancer and 100,000 miles on it ?

patience, persistance, and priorities do not produce fruit ?

in order to give, don't you have to have some thing in the first place?
a smile, kind word, hug, extra smoke, pepsi, gum.....or a couple of bucks for the guy down on his luck.....as you give, so too will be given you ...sounds like a good idea, wonder who wrote that......obamma.....?? no .....Jesus

The "Success" Gospel

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The Artist Formerly Known as RegularGuy

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Deal with it.

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