American Charity!

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cantata

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All I'm really arguing is that churches aren't trying to get money to give to charity just for recognition. They are truly trying to do good, but as far as their reasoning for wanting to give it out themselves is, in my opinion, so that they can decide what orgs. to give it to.

But they receive public (i.e. taxpayers') money. I think that was Kelli's point.

Why is it okay for them to receive public money, but not, y'know, poor people?
 
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geekgirlkelli

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All I'm really arguing is that churches aren't trying to get money to give to charity just for recognition. They are truly trying to do good, but as far as their reasoning for wanting to give it out themselves is, in my opinion, so that they can decide what orgs. to give it to.

But that's a completely hypocritical stance for you to take, since you already stated that you wanted control over where your money went instead of the government deciding for you. Apparently you only think that way if the money is going to a secular organization but are perfectly fine with tax money going to churches. Am I understanding this correctly?
 
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gwenmead

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tanzanos said:
The very notion that one must receive recognition for helping others is immoral and unethical.

I agree with this. Recognition for charitable giving has always seemed like self-aggrandizement to me.

However, as an American, I don't think this is really the reason why conservative individuals will tend to push for having social services handled by private charities instead of government agencies. It's a bit more complex than that, and there are probably several reasons.

In general, conservative individuals believe in two things: keeping money in people's pockets, and less government interference and/or regulation into their lives (at least when it comes to economic matters). Frequently this translates into lowering taxes and cutting government programs.

Some even see taxation as a form of government theft, but this is not true for all. Others have a rather isolationist attitude about taxes: they don't want to pay taxes for a service they won't use.

Keep in mind, also, that charitable donations are tax deductible. Philanthropy is spurred, in part, by the ability to deduct donations from one's gross income at the end of the year, and thus lower the amount of tax one must pay to Uncle Sam every April.

There is also the myth of the American Dream, coupled with a skewed belief in the results of hard work. It is a cultural myth in America that wealth is generated by hard, diligent, dedicated work. While it is possible to work hard and become financially prosperous (the rags-to-riches story we love so well), the unfortunate flip side of this is that we tend to believe that poor people are poor because they are lazy, regardless of how hard they actually work.

Poverty is thus seen as a moral failure, not the result of unfortunate circumstances. Thus conservatives often see government programs as a matter of taxpayers rewarding poor people for moral failure, not as an essential safety net needed to ensure the health and safety of all citizens. This attitude is not helped by propaganda such as the myth of the welfare queen, but it's easier to believe in such myths when they help support one's own position.

A dirty little secret Americans don't like to admit is that we place the value of a human life on money. We value humans who live above subsistence level, who make more than minimum wage, who don't have to work 3 jobs just to survive, and who have a nice home, car, and family. We value the image of prosperity, which is probably one reason why we're so far in the credit hole right now and why our economy is collapsing like a flan in a cupboard.

So the reasons why many Americans would rather place social support in the hands of private charities rather than government are manifold, and I suspect recognition is not a primary motivation.
 
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Braunwyn

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Who the hell does this and why the hell am I not one of them?

Have you ever met someone who does this?

Or do you just read about it in whatever your equivalent is of the Daily Mail, and get OUTRAGED?
There are people that do this but they are most likely such a small minority that it's irrelevant. And I'm sure such people are frigged in the head any way and are in need of mental health aid.

When I was 16? 15? I met a girl that was pregnant and motivated by the fact that she would be receiving monies due to the baby. She was probably a teen as well though I'm not sure. It was a long time ago but...big but...this was in Elizabeth NJ. The biggest hole (worse that newark imo) that you can think of in the US. She was raised in trash and it's not surprising that her values are trashy. Such people deserve compassion and guidence.
 
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angellica

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There are people that do this but they are most likely such a small minority that it's irrelevant. And I'm sure such people are frigged in the head any way and are in need of mental health aid.

When I was 16? 15? I met a girl that was pregnant and motivated by the fact that she would be receiving monies due to the baby. She was probably a teen as well though I'm not sure. It was a long time ago but...big but...this was in Elizabeth NJ. The biggest hole (worse that newark imo) that you can think of in the US. She was raised in trash and it's not surprising that her values are trashy. Such people deserve compassion and guidence.
I live in Memphis and I meet people like this all the time...
 
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Braunwyn

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I live in Memphis and I meet people like this all the time...
My point is that these people are born in need to begin with. I'm going to take a big guess here, but given the problems you've had to contend with in your life, did you do it on your own? Did you have folks that you lived with until you were 18? The people I've met in such situations were born into gross poverty (didn't have folks, a real home, a somewhat decent education, etc). They were born with so many strikes against them. Again, I don't think a welfare check is the answer but given that our society requires monies to live, financial help is a requirement at the very least. It's not even a starting point, just a sustaining one. The fact that we (society) begin and end our aid largely with monies doesn't speak highly of us as a community.
 
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tanzanos

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All I'm really arguing is that churches aren't trying to get money to give to charity just for recognition. They are truly trying to do good, but as far as their reasoning for wanting to give it out themselves is, in my opinion, so that they can decide what orgs. to give it to.

A lot of churches are in it for money! I have seen it too many times to ignore it!

I have seen Religion sold like a commodity on TV (TBN). It is an insult to dignity! Whether one is religious or not.
 
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Angel4Truth

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I suspect the reason why [some American Fundamentalist Christians] hate Government spending on the poor and advocate private charities is:
With Government sponsored charity; the taxpayer remains anonymous and only the Government gets the credit. Whereas in Private charities; Donors are heaped with accolades and thus get direct credit for their magnanimity. This way they are sure God will favour them when the time comes.

On the other hand when it comes to their taxpayers money being used for arms and war; then they prefer to remain anonymous so as not to be directly blamed for the killings and maiming that comes with the territory.

Jesus once said after seeing a rich man give a substantial amount of tithes in the synagogue; "It is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle than it is for a rich man to enter heaven"

The very notion that one must receive recognition for helping others is immoral and unethical.


You would be incorrect. Perhaps you should ask instead of assuming.
 
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wanderingone

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Doesn't everybody? :scratch: ^_^

Hopefully most people's fantasies don't include using government grants intended to provide programs and resources to various eligible people as a means to wealth.

(please don't think the rest of my rant is directed at you preacher's wife!)

Unfortunately (and I speak about non profits in general regardless of their being faith based or not) far too many non profits are created in response to the latest government "thing" currently marriage and fatherhood initiatives are the way to get funding. It's amazing how many people become "experts" when some new study comes out revealing that poverty is caused by "x" and relieved by "y" You should have seen the garbage we were stuck funding after 9/11 when it was the expected "thing" to help with recovery efforts, and after Katrina-- when we certainly did get a large number of people who relocated to be with family or to stay with members of church groups who "volunteered" to house them (yeah house them but expect the state to cough up "rent" money- in my opinion once you start charging folks rent you haven't volunteered for anything, you're just using a disaster as a means not to advertise your room for rent)

Weeding through all the demands for access to funds from organizations who claim to be qualified to provide every imagined service is a nightmare.
 
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bsd13

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I suspect the reason why American Christian fundies hate Government spending on the poor and advocate private charities is:
With Government sponsored charity; the taxpayer remains anonymous and only the Government gets the credit. Whereas in Private charities; Donors are heaped with accolades and thus get direct credit for their magnanimity. This way they are sure God will favour them when the time comes.

On the other hand when it comes to their taxpayers money being used for arms and war; then they prefer to remain anonymous so as not to be directly blamed for the killings and maiming that comes with the territory.

Jesus once said after seeing a rich man give a substantial amount of tithes in the synagogue; "It is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle than it is for a rich man to enter heaven"

The very notion that one must receive recognition for helping others is immoral and unethical.

I'm trying to recall a time I've ever been recognized for giving money to charity... Maybe you can help me out here because I'm drawing a blank.
 
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wanderingone

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I suspect the reason why [some American Fundamentalist Christians] hate Government spending on the poor and advocate private charities is:
With Government sponsored charity; the taxpayer remains anonymous and only the Government gets the credit. Whereas in Private charities; Donors are heaped with accolades and thus get direct credit for their magnanimity. This way they are sure God will favour them when the time comes.

I don't really agree with this. I think that this view of not having government make the decisions on charity has more to do with a political view point. For example most libertarians I know do not agree with tax based charity. They don't think anyone should be forced to donate to any cause. Most of the libertarians I know are not Christian, in fact most are atheist. Most don't want credit for what they do give either. They just don't want to be forced to contribute. I don't agree with the logic - I think in order to make sure a certain level of funding is available for specific needs you have to use a tax based method.

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bsd13

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I don't really agree with this. I think that this view of not having government make the decisions on charity has more to do with a political view point. For example most libertarians I know do not agree with tax based charity. They don't think anyone should be forced to donate to any cause. Most of the libertarians I know are not Christian, in fact most are atheist. Most don't want credit for what they do give either. They just don't want to be forced to contribute. I don't agree with the logic - I think in order to make sure a certain level of funding is available for specific needs you have to use a tax based method.

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So you believe that people have a duty, or an obligation to give whether they like it or not?
 
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wanderingone

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I'm trying to recall a time I've ever been recognized for giving money to charity... Maybe you can help me out here because I'm drawing a blank.

:) I think the only time you get you get your name in lights (or on the brass plaque) is when you get into those big donors circles -- try building a new auditorium at your kids school, I bet you would get a nice sign to recognize your charitable contribution. :p

Of course there are those fundraisers that sell bricks or stepping stones that you can have inscribed with your name.. I guess having your family name on a brick in the rebuilt pedestrian bridge downtown could be seen as "recognition" :)
 
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wanderingone

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So you believe that people have a duty, or an obligation to give whether they like it or not?

I do.

I'm rather glad that our "tent cities" are minimal compared to the number of similar situations in countries that don't have government programs to protect and support people in need. I'd rather not have families living in tunnels and under bridges and living on benches.

I'm not happy with the billions of thrown away dollars spent on our recent military efforts and as with any spending that I believe to be wasteful (like the member items our legislators get to hand out in return for votes) I will let my reps know when I don't support it, and have voted against folks who okay handing over money for things that support on individual interests rather than the larger good. I accept that not everything in the budget is something I'm going to agree to. Heck not everything in my budget is something I like spending money on either.

Charity is the least of my concerns when it comes to my taxes- at least in terms of how much, there's so little of the budget spent on TANF based programs it's barely worth the amount of effort put into oversight.. and it certainly gets a ridiculous about of oversight for such small amounts of money.
 
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