Irresistable Grace question.....

God extends a general call, as to all those who are sitting in church when the gospel is preached and hear it with their ears. However, there might be a few there that are truly convicted of their sin and see their need of a Savior. All they have heard before they paid no attention to and yet now, here they are, listening closely and seeing how personal it all is for them! God has touched their heart with His irrrsistible grace and all the Word they disliked before now takes on a beauty and desirability for them and they become hungry for His word and for Him as Savior of their lost soul! This is regeneration!
The irresistible grace is like someone who has always hated brussel sprouts now becoming a lover of brussel sprouts. Their tastes buds have a new sensitivity, totally changed and now they have new interests, new loves, new desires!
They are now a new creation in Christ Jesus, old things have passed away, behold all things become new! Soli deo gloria!

Z -

I highly recommend you read Martin Luther's "Bondage of The Will" - which will help you out in your debate greatly.

Also - take a look at the Canons of Dort - which provide scriptural support for all of the points of TULIP.

+Zero+ said:

hey everyone! I had a question concerning the doctrine of Irresistable Grace. My good friend and I got into a lengthy discussion about different doctrines last night. I am striving for a Reformed view of scripture, while my friend is in a Pentacostal denomination. We had a discussion concerning God's call for sinners. The view I expressed to my friend was that even though we MUST have faith in the Lord Jesus to be saved, I tried to make the point that faith is a gift of God, and that God must draw in those who will ultimately believe in Him, therefore placing the work of salvation solely in the hands of God. But here is a topic which has caused confusion....

Considering I am brand spanking new to Reformed theology, but am embracing it, I was curious of what a more mature (you all) Reformed believer would have to tell a young pup about the doctrine of Irresistable Grace. The verse that was presented by this friend to me was a passage in 2nd Peter, chapter 3 if I recall, which says that "......for God wills that none should perish, but that all should come to repentance" which I believe is very out of context in the form which he quoted. I argued for predestination, which my friend couldn't deny totally, but he argued against people being predestined to Hell. He also said that God extends the call of faith to all, and that people themselves can harden their hearts to the call and reject the faith... which is what I need help on..... As of right now, I believe that God hardens whom He will harden (Romans 9:18), and I believe that those who are elected to true faith cannot resist the call... but I really do need more help to properly talk to my friend.

If anyone has any correction in the theology I've discussed to my friend (if I am off), or just can offer insight into the doctrine of irresistable Grace, the help would certainly be appreciated. I really want to respond to my good friend with Biblical evidence. Thanks!

Click to expand...

Good Day, Zero

Here is a look at the whole passage:

2 Pe 1 This second epistle, beloved, I now write unto you; in both which I stir up your pure minds by way of remembrance:

**Remember this is written to Believers

2Pe 3:2 That ye may be mindful of the words which were spoken before by the holy prophets, and of the commandment of us the apostles of the Lord and Saviour:

* believers- beloved,YE

2Pe 3:3 Knowing this first, that there shall come in the last days scoffers, walking after their own lusts,

*Un regenerate man

2Pe 3:4 And saying, Where is the promise of his coming? for since the fathers fell asleep, all things continue as they were from the beginning of the creation.

*Unregenerate Man's Charge
2Pe 3:5 For this they willingly are ignorant of, that by the word of God the heavens were of old, and the earth standing out of the water and in the water:

2Pe 3:6 Whereby the world that then was, being overflowed with water, perished:

2Pe 3:7 But the heavens and the earth, which are now, by the same word are kept in store, reserved unto fire against the day of judgment and perdition of ungodly men.

* Unbelivers rewards for thier ungodly- ness
2Pe 3:8 But,
beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day.

*Believers
2Pe 3:9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.

* Believers – Charge of the ungodly in verse #4 debuffed


2Pe 3:10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.


*Reward for Believers


The issue that your friend is raising is answered by the use of words in verse 9, "any" and "all are both pro-nouns. Ask him to which nouns they refer, have him read the whole passage in total and follow the thought from start to finish.

In Him,

Bill

One thing to remember about II Peter 3:9 is that it is apocalyptic. It isn't a contextless sentiment of God. It's the reason Peter gives for the tarrying of the Lord, the reason he hasn't come back yet. And if God doesn't will that any humans at all should perish from his return, then he'll never be able to return. The text reads much more easily if it means that God is waiting for the full number of his church to come in, not willing for any of them to perish because they are as of yet not believers.

To be complete: Scripture does talk about a general call to any human irrespective of his sinful condition, ethnicity, intelligence -- doesn't matter.

Reformed thought includes a general call. But there's an effective call as well. I've always used Romans 8:29-30 to point this out. We talk about irresistible grace as what operates in the effective call.

This work is also called the New Creation, being born of the Spirit, and it is clearly contrary to our own natural wills as well. But there's some argument whether God is forcibly resisted by our own natural wills. How do you stop God from creating? How does a baby resist being born?

John Murray has a good description of this under the chapter "Regeneration" in his book, "Redemption Accomplished and Applied".

It just so happens a guy at church asked me about 2 Peter 3:9 last week and I wrote a little paper for him. Here it is.

2 Peter 3:9

2Pe 3:9 ...not wishing for any to perish but for all to come to repentance. (NASB)
2Pe 3:9 ...not wishing that any should perish, but that all should reach repentance. (ESV)
2Pe 3:9 ...not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance. (KJV)
2Pe 3:9 ...not wishing that any should perish, but that all should reach repentance. (RSV)

2Pe 3:9 ...μὴ βουλόμενός τινας ἀπολέσθαι ἀλλὰ πάντας εἰς μετάνοιαν χωρῆσαι (koine)

βούλομαι trans. “boulomai”

Theological Dictionary of the New Testament, Gerhard Kittel (Vol. 1, pg. 632)

"In most of the NT passages, as in LXX, Aristeas, Josephus and Philo, the sense is that of "wishing," "desiring" or "intending" often with something of all three."

"...in 2 Peter 3:9, the word expresses the divine will to save."

Kittel is convinced the word is referring to a desire, or a wish that may never come true. Peter uses this word in reference to God's saving, that God desires or wishes none to perish; however, some may, and within the entire scope of Scriptural teaching, certainly will.

He also says:

"boulesqai can denote an intention that is never fulfilled."

It is debated whether boulesqai is related to βούλομαι; however, it ought to be considered.

William Barclay writes on the passage:

"God, says Peter, does not wish any to perish. God, says Paul, has shut them all up together in unbelief, that He might have mercy on all (Romans 11:32). The Pastoral Epistles in a tremendous phrase speaks of God who will have all men to be saved (1 Timothy 2:4). Ezekiel hears God ask: "Have I any pleasure at all that the wicked should die, and not that he should return from his ways and live?" (Ezekiel 18:23)."

Peter H. Davids has this to say:

"...He has done this not wanting (or willing) "anyone" to perish (as the generation of the flood did; 2 Pet 3:6), but "everyone" to attain repentance (as the addressees of the letter had). There is a play here between "anyone" or "some" (earlier in our verse) and "everyone" or "all". "Some" (probably the "scoffers") understand God to be slow in keeping His promise, but God does not want "anyone"/"some" (they are the same pronoun in Greek) to perish. What he wants is "everyone"/"all" to come to repentance. It looks as if Peter is saying God does not wish even the scoffers to perish (although our author does not have any expectation they will repent) but rather wants even them to repent. God's will may not be done, but it will not be for lack of trying on his part."

He goes on to explain the character of God could be described by Jesus’ teaching to pray for one's enemies (Matt 5:43-48, Luke 6:27-28;32-36). He then says:

"Those who are really His children will have a heart or character like this."

While this passage seems to be at odds with Calvinistic teaching at first glance, I think the last quote really makes the point; as we desire that all would be saved and none would have to endure an eternity of weeping and gnashing of teeth, so it is with God. In fact, God is the source our compassion upon all people, and 2 Peter 3:9 agrees with this when it explains God in this way. However, it is not my belief that this verse explicitly teaches about the eternal decree of God. It seems to make more sense that God's desire and will are being affirmed, in which of course, all would agree that God does not take joy in the judgment of some to eternal damnation. We serve a loving and benevolent God who desires all to repent. However, we must draw distinction between God’s eternal decree and that which is expressed as His “desires” or “wishes”.

Hope this helped.

+Zero+ said:

hey everyone! I had a question concerning the doctrine of Irresistable Grace. My good friend and I got into a lengthy discussion about different doctrines last night. I am striving for a Reformed view of scripture, while my friend is in a Pentacostal denomination. We had a discussion concerning God's call for sinners. The view I expressed to my friend was that even though we MUST have faith in the Lord Jesus to be saved, I tried to make the point that faith is a gift of God, and that God must draw in those who will ultimately believe in Him, therefore placing the work of salvation solely in the hands of God. But here is a topic which has caused confusion....

Considering I am brand spanking new to Reformed theology, but am embracing it, I was curious of what a more mature (you all) Reformed believer would have to tell a young pup about the doctrine of Irresistable Grace. The verse that was presented by this friend to me was a passage in 2nd Peter, chapter 3 if I recall, which says that "......for God wills that none should perish, but that all should come to repentance" which I believe is very out of context in the form which he quoted. I argued for predestination, which my friend couldn't deny totally, but he argued against people being predestined to Hell. He also said that God extends the call of faith to all, and that people themselves can harden their hearts to the call and reject the faith... which is what I need help on..... As of right now, I believe that God hardens whom He will harden (Romans 9:18), and I believe that those who are elected to true faith cannot resist the call... but I really do need more help to properly talk to my friend.

If anyone has any correction in the theology I've discussed to my friend (if I am off), or just can offer insight into the doctrine of irresistable Grace, the help would certainly be appreciated. I really want to respond to my good friend with Biblical evidence. Thanks!

Click to expand...

I can't add much more than my friends here have said , btw Zero , ask your Pentecostal friend does God have a will for those who reject Him , is it God's will that men who reject Him go to hell ? ask him when does he think God made the decision to send sinners to hell ? If not in eternity (predestination) then when ?

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