Muslim's excecuted for changing religions?
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Secundulus
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The Old Testament Law can be divided into several subdivisions.
- The Moral Law given by God to Moses on Sinai (Ten Commandments).
- The Judicial Law of Israel written to enforce the Moral Law.
- The Ceremonial Law concerning Temple Sacrifice.
- The Laws concerning unclean/clean/holy which are related to the ceremonial laws.
- We believe the moral law is eternal and valid for all people. This belief derives from things Jesus said in the NT.
- The Judicial Laws were the civil laws written to govern the Nation of Israel. They are based upon the moral law. One may take the view that God dictated them to Moses or that Moses derived them himself. Either way, it does not matter because since they were the civil laws of a Nation, and we are not living in that Nation, the laws of that Nation are not applicable to us.
- The Ceremonial, or Temple Laws, do not currently apply to anyone because there is no Temple. It was destroyed in 68 AD by the Romans. There is unlikely to be another Temple because first, the Muslims have erected the Al Asqa Mosque on the only site where the Temple may exist and second, because the Sacrifice of Christ fulfills all the purposes that the Temple previously served (See the Book of Hebrews).
- The laws concerning unclean/clean/holy do not apply to Christians because Christ's redeeming work on the cross erases these distinctions for those who follow and put their faith in him. (Again, see the Book of Hebrews)
"But woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites, because you shut off the kingdom of heaven from people; for you do not enter in yourselves, nor do you allow those who are entering to go in." . . . etc.
Their practices and beliefs were not wrong, but they had forgotten the reason for these practices and beliefs. To them it had become nothing more than ritual where one's adherence to the ritual exalted the self.
They had forgotten that the reason behind the ritual was to teach the holiness of God and to enable that holiness to become a part of the self.
He told them they were exalting the self in shows of self-righteousness rather than allowing the self to be transformed into the image of God.
I hope my explanation above helped. If not, I am more than open to further discussion.
I personally no longer assume the incarnation is true, nor do I believe it to be so by faith or by witness of the Apostles. I know for a fact it is true because he spoke to me once and told me so. I realize that I cannot prove this but I relate it so you understand why I believe what I believe. The Book is not God but is simply God's record. It tells me the record of the historical presence among other people of the God who spoke to me.
See my explanation in #2 at the top.
I believe in Hell. That is precisely why we do not need to concern ourselves with judging and executing apostates. Jesus tells us to leave that judgment to God. God judges the interior person. We can only judge exterior actions. Since we are unable to see what God can see in the heart of an individual, our human judgments will inevitably be faulty.
For Christianity, the central event is the incarnation and resurrection of Christ. Salvation history revolves around this single point. Other religions may claim similar personages in the the history of Israel, but if they deny the Christ they have missed the point of Christianity entirely. The rest is just window dressing and superficial similarity.
We say that the execution of Apostates is wrong because it is contrary to the revelation of Christ and because none of us live in the Nation of Israel established by Moses in a specific place and at a specific time.
We say that in creating Islam, Muhammed missed the point entirely and simply recreated the practices of the Pharisees without understanding the personal transformation into holiness that was their root.
The Kingdom of God is among you and within you. This, while imperfectly realized on this side of death, is nevertheless begun by the turning of the soul to reflect the love of God. We are created in the image of God. This image, imprinted on the soul, is what Christ came to repair.
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I suppose that the most important thing is if Mohammad's example is to be followed since he is the one who issued the command. If there is a specific context that he gave for this command, I would like for Muslims to explain it by using his own words in context of that passage.
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elwill
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Some group of Muslims believe in killing apostates because they follow a Hadith (Saying) from Prophet Mohammed peace be upon him regarding the apostates. While Islam was weak and still growing among Jews, Christians and Pagans, Muslims did not have the full and complete religion that they needed. Some Jews and Christians wanted to take advantage of such situation to destroy Islam. They had a plan to adopt Islam first and then desert it, thus creating the impression that Islam was not a religion worth adopting.
Let us look at Noble Verse 3:72 "A section of the People of the Book (Jews and Christians) say: Believe in the morning what is revealed to the believers (Muslims), but reject it at the end of the day; perchance they may (themselves) turn back (from Islam)."
To protect Islam from such Satanic attempts done by a group of the people of the book (Jews and Christians), Prophet Mohammed peace be upon him ordered the death of those who enter Islam and leave it. This temporary law that was put by our Prophet had stopped the hypocrites from the People of the Book who carried so much hatred toward Islam to enter Islam and desert it afterwards.
if you need to know some details about the authentic of this hadeeth related to apostates
check this site
http://islamicperspectives.com/Punis...asy_Part2.html
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DanielRB
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Hi, christianmomof3 
That is true, but not surprising as most Jews today either reject Torah outright (the non-Orthodox who pick and choose what they want to follow) or re-interpret it in a way that essentially denies it (as the Orthodox do). The Karaites seem to be the only ones who seem to accept Torah as it is written, and even they do not execute apostates. Nevertheless, it's a pretty clear command in Torah and only through some mental gymnastics that violate nearly every principal of exegesis can one say it doesn't mean that they should kill apostates (at least in the land of Israel).
Actually, the Bible itself records such instances, when there were "reform" efforts before the exile. Some of these were quite famous--I'm surprised you've forgotten them: Exodus 32:27-28; Numbers 25:5;1 Kings 18:40; 2 Kings 10:25-28; 2 Kings 11:18.
Nevertheless, does obedience to the law or disobedience to the law change it's status as the word of the LORD?
Some do, some don't.
I'm pretty sure in Saudi Arabia and a few others. Some countries, like Indonesdia, have imprisionment.
I don't know the answers to these questions.
Keep in mind, though, that it was only relatively recently that in Christian countries people were often killed for being in the "wrong" church. Religious tolerance is fairly young in the Christian world. Some of Europe's bloodiest history (like the 30 Year's War) was because many (if not most) Christians believed that adherence to the right religion was a matter of life or death. The key difference is, of course, that in Christianity, it is not explicitly taught in the New Testament. (Of course, it's not explicitly taught in the Quran, either...but many Hadith have a canonical status in Islam.)
Daniel
That is true, but not surprising as most Jews today either reject Torah outright (the non-Orthodox who pick and choose what they want to follow) or re-interpret it in a way that essentially denies it (as the Orthodox do). The Karaites seem to be the only ones who seem to accept Torah as it is written, and even they do not execute apostates. Nevertheless, it's a pretty clear command in Torah and only through some mental gymnastics that violate nearly every principal of exegesis can one say it doesn't mean that they should kill apostates (at least in the land of Israel).
Actually, the Bible itself records such instances, when there were "reform" efforts before the exile. Some of these were quite famous--I'm surprised you've forgotten them: Exodus 32:27-28; Numbers 25:5;1 Kings 18:40; 2 Kings 10:25-28; 2 Kings 11:18.
Nevertheless, does obedience to the law or disobedience to the law change it's status as the word of the LORD?
Some do, some don't.
I'm pretty sure in Saudi Arabia and a few others. Some countries, like Indonesdia, have imprisionment.
I don't know the answers to these questions.
Keep in mind, though, that it was only relatively recently that in Christian countries people were often killed for being in the "wrong" church. Religious tolerance is fairly young in the Christian world. Some of Europe's bloodiest history (like the 30 Year's War) was because many (if not most) Christians believed that adherence to the right religion was a matter of life or death. The key difference is, of course, that in Christianity, it is not explicitly taught in the New Testament. (Of course, it's not explicitly taught in the Quran, either...but many Hadith have a canonical status in Islam.)
Daniel
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DanielRB
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Hi, Secundulus,
I've heard this from many Christians. I find essentially four types of interpretations of Torah and how it relates to Christians:
*Your position, as listed above--historically, I think this has been by far the most common.
*Messianic interpretations--Torah is for Jews, not Gentile converts to Christianity--and the Jewish believers in Jesus should continue to follow it.
*Judaizing position--Saying all believers, Jew or Gentile, need to follow all or some of the law.
*Dispensational believers--All of Torah is "passed away" and there are no sections of it that the Christian needs to follow--we are under a completely new covenant.
I think most non-Judaizing Christians have to have some explination of why they don't follow Torah--unless they reject Paul (in which case they probably are Judaizers in some ways.)
However, I do not see the distinctions between moral, civil, ceremonial, etc. to be justified in Torah itself. Over and over again Moses repeats (especially in Deuteronomy) the importance of keeping all of the law, forever, and no hint that it will one day pass away in whole or in part:
"And Moses summoned all Israel and said to them, Hear, O Israel, the statutes and the rules that I speak in your hearing today, and you shall learn them and be careful to do them." (Deuteronomy 5:1, ESV)
"You shall be careful therefore to do as the Lord your God has commanded you. You shall not turn aside to the right hand or to the left. You shall walk in all the way that the Lord your God has commanded you, that you may live, and that it may go well with you, and that you may live long in the land that you shall possess." (Deuteronomy 5:32-33, ESV)
"Hear therefore, O Israel, and be careful to do them, that it may go well with you, and that you may multiply greatly, as the Lord, the God of your fathers, has promised you, in a land flowing with milk and honey." (Deuteronomy 6:3, ESV)
"And it will be righteousness for us, if we are careful to do all this commandment before the Lord our God, as he has commanded us." (Deuteronomy 6:25, ESV)
"You shall therefore be careful to do the commandment and the statutes and the rules that I command you today." (Deuteronomy 7:11, ESV)
" The whole commandment that I command you today you shall be careful to do, that you may live and multiply, and go in and possess the land that the Lord swore to give to your fathers." (Deuteronomy 8:1, ESV)
"Take care lest you forget the Lord your God by not keeping his commandments and his rules and his statutes, which I command you today," (Deuteronomy 8:11, ESV)
"For if you will be careful to do all this commandment that I command you to do, loving the Lord your God, walking in all his ways, and holding fast to him, then the Lord will drive out all these nations before you, and you will dispossess nations greater and mightier than yourselves." (Deuteronomy 11:22-23, ESV)
"you shall be careful to do all the statutes and the rules that I am setting before you today." (Deuteronomy 11:32, ESV)
" These are the statutes and rules that you shall be careful to do in the land that the Lord, the God of your fathers, has given you to possess, all the days that you live on the earth." (Deuteronomy 12:1, ESV)
"Be careful to obey all these words that I command you, that it may go well with you and with your children after you forever, when you do what is good and right in the sight of the Lord your God." (Deuteronomy 12:28, ESV)
"But there will be no poor among you; for the Lord will bless you in the land that the Lord your God is giving you for an inheritance to possess if only you will strictly obey the voice of the Lord your God, being careful to do all this commandment that I command you today." (Deuteronomy 15:4-5, ESV)
"provided you are careful to keep all this commandment, which I command you today, by loving the Lord your God and by walking ever in his waysthen you shall add three other cities to these three," (Deuteronomy 19:9, ESV)
There are many more, I didn't list all of them even in Deuteronomy. But you get the idea.
Even the prophecy concerning the prophet(s) to come after Moses were to be held to the standard of obedience to Torah:
Dividing up Torah into parts that are still valid and parts that have been abrogated does not seem to be consistent with what Torah itself claims.
Oh, I agree. Jesus apparently had no problem with Torah itself, since he said:
Of course, Jesus didn't define "...all is accomplished". If this was meant to refer to the death, burial and resurrection, then Jesus' command was just for a brief span of time (less than 3 years or so) and has now been "fulfilled" so we can say some iotas and dots have passed away, such as circumcision, distinction between clean and unclean foods, sabbath observance, the temple sacrifices, killing apostates, etc. Of course, Jesus also said:
But New Testament Christianity is based upon the abrogation of a great deal (or all) of Torah. I don't think I'll convince you, or any other Christian, that this is inconsistent with what Torah itself says. But that is another subject for discussion--unfortunately, with the closure of GA this board is not really a place for debating the veracity of Christian claims.
I can't argue with personal experience...but of course you realize that many have experienced radically different personal experiences that lead them to other religious choices.
So you believe that Israel wrote it, that it would be false to claim it was a direct "thus saith the LORD"? I think that this makes the presentation in Torah rather deceptive, implying that the LORD revealed it all.
If someone is persistent in saying they're an apostate, how could a human judgment that they are an apostate be "faulty"?
If hell is truly the destination for apostates, I would consider it, then, to be more merciful to use any means possible to keep people from there--including, if necessary, the threat of temporal punishment.
Oh, I agree...and it's precisely this claim that I find inconsistent with the OT as a whole.
Though Torah does not imply that obedience to Torah, in whole or in part, would ever come to an end. Indeed, even Jeremiah describes the New Covenant as not of one without Torah, but one where Torah is even written on the hearts of man (Jeremiah 31:33).
Technically, Mohammad was guilty of abrogating parts of Torah, too.
A good summation of the Christian message.
Daniel
EDIT: On "not living in the nation of Israel"--I find a distinction between "the nation of Israel" and "God's people" to not be compelling. Even in Jeremiah's New Covenant, the covenant is with Israel and Judah, not some non-national third entity.
I've heard this from many Christians. I find essentially four types of interpretations of Torah and how it relates to Christians:
*Your position, as listed above--historically, I think this has been by far the most common.
*Messianic interpretations--Torah is for Jews, not Gentile converts to Christianity--and the Jewish believers in Jesus should continue to follow it.
*Judaizing position--Saying all believers, Jew or Gentile, need to follow all or some of the law.
*Dispensational believers--All of Torah is "passed away" and there are no sections of it that the Christian needs to follow--we are under a completely new covenant.
I think most non-Judaizing Christians have to have some explination of why they don't follow Torah--unless they reject Paul (in which case they probably are Judaizers in some ways.)
However, I do not see the distinctions between moral, civil, ceremonial, etc. to be justified in Torah itself. Over and over again Moses repeats (especially in Deuteronomy) the importance of keeping all of the law, forever, and no hint that it will one day pass away in whole or in part:
"And Moses summoned all Israel and said to them, Hear, O Israel, the statutes and the rules that I speak in your hearing today, and you shall learn them and be careful to do them." (Deuteronomy 5:1, ESV)
"You shall be careful therefore to do as the Lord your God has commanded you. You shall not turn aside to the right hand or to the left. You shall walk in all the way that the Lord your God has commanded you, that you may live, and that it may go well with you, and that you may live long in the land that you shall possess." (Deuteronomy 5:32-33, ESV)
"Hear therefore, O Israel, and be careful to do them, that it may go well with you, and that you may multiply greatly, as the Lord, the God of your fathers, has promised you, in a land flowing with milk and honey." (Deuteronomy 6:3, ESV)
"And it will be righteousness for us, if we are careful to do all this commandment before the Lord our God, as he has commanded us." (Deuteronomy 6:25, ESV)
"You shall therefore be careful to do the commandment and the statutes and the rules that I command you today." (Deuteronomy 7:11, ESV)
" The whole commandment that I command you today you shall be careful to do, that you may live and multiply, and go in and possess the land that the Lord swore to give to your fathers." (Deuteronomy 8:1, ESV)
"Take care lest you forget the Lord your God by not keeping his commandments and his rules and his statutes, which I command you today," (Deuteronomy 8:11, ESV)
"For if you will be careful to do all this commandment that I command you to do, loving the Lord your God, walking in all his ways, and holding fast to him, then the Lord will drive out all these nations before you, and you will dispossess nations greater and mightier than yourselves." (Deuteronomy 11:22-23, ESV)
"you shall be careful to do all the statutes and the rules that I am setting before you today." (Deuteronomy 11:32, ESV)
" These are the statutes and rules that you shall be careful to do in the land that the Lord, the God of your fathers, has given you to possess, all the days that you live on the earth." (Deuteronomy 12:1, ESV)
"Be careful to obey all these words that I command you, that it may go well with you and with your children after you forever, when you do what is good and right in the sight of the Lord your God." (Deuteronomy 12:28, ESV)
"But there will be no poor among you; for the Lord will bless you in the land that the Lord your God is giving you for an inheritance to possess if only you will strictly obey the voice of the Lord your God, being careful to do all this commandment that I command you today." (Deuteronomy 15:4-5, ESV)
"provided you are careful to keep all this commandment, which I command you today, by loving the Lord your God and by walking ever in his waysthen you shall add three other cities to these three," (Deuteronomy 19:9, ESV)
There are many more, I didn't list all of them even in Deuteronomy. But you get the idea.
Even the prophecy concerning the prophet(s) to come after Moses were to be held to the standard of obedience to Torah:
Dividing up Torah into parts that are still valid and parts that have been abrogated does not seem to be consistent with what Torah itself claims.
Oh, I agree. Jesus apparently had no problem with Torah itself, since he said:
Of course, Jesus didn't define "...all is accomplished". If this was meant to refer to the death, burial and resurrection, then Jesus' command was just for a brief span of time (less than 3 years or so) and has now been "fulfilled" so we can say some iotas and dots have passed away, such as circumcision, distinction between clean and unclean foods, sabbath observance, the temple sacrifices, killing apostates, etc. Of course, Jesus also said:
But New Testament Christianity is based upon the abrogation of a great deal (or all) of Torah. I don't think I'll convince you, or any other Christian, that this is inconsistent with what Torah itself says. But that is another subject for discussion--unfortunately, with the closure of GA this board is not really a place for debating the veracity of Christian claims.
I can't argue with personal experience...but of course you realize that many have experienced radically different personal experiences that lead them to other religious choices.
So you believe that Israel wrote it, that it would be false to claim it was a direct "thus saith the LORD"? I think that this makes the presentation in Torah rather deceptive, implying that the LORD revealed it all.
If someone is persistent in saying they're an apostate, how could a human judgment that they are an apostate be "faulty"?
If hell is truly the destination for apostates, I would consider it, then, to be more merciful to use any means possible to keep people from there--including, if necessary, the threat of temporal punishment.
Oh, I agree...and it's precisely this claim that I find inconsistent with the OT as a whole.
Though Torah does not imply that obedience to Torah, in whole or in part, would ever come to an end. Indeed, even Jeremiah describes the New Covenant as not of one without Torah, but one where Torah is even written on the hearts of man (Jeremiah 31:33).
Technically, Mohammad was guilty of abrogating parts of Torah, too.
A good summation of the Christian message.
Daniel
EDIT: On "not living in the nation of Israel"--I find a distinction between "the nation of Israel" and "God's people" to not be compelling. Even in Jeremiah's New Covenant, the covenant is with Israel and Judah, not some non-national third entity.
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DanielRB
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Hi, Peaceful Soul
When I brought the subject up (I can't speak for AminM, but I brought it up first in this thread), it wasn't about Christian apostacy, but about apostacy and the Bible--specifically, under Torah. My contention is that if Torah is truly the word of God, then it cannot be argued that killing apostates is immoral or ungodly unless you are willing to apply the same standard to the Bible..
Hmmm...countering a fallacy with another (ad hominem) doesn't really seem terribly logical.
When you find them, please post it.
Agreed, it was not relevant.
So how was Saul of Tarsus, who punished converts to Christianity, not being faithful to Torah? See especially Deut 13:4-5. Where was it prophesied in the OT that obedience to Torah would come to an end one day?
So an apostate who did it in secret, not enticing others, was not to be killed? Only those who evangelized their point of view?
All well and good, but do you think that these "distinct laws" were immoral? Maybe "necessary evils"? Or where they good? If they were good then, why not now?
Yet it involves the Christian God. It is obvious from the Bible that there is nothing against God's moral nature in executing apostates--he even commanded it at one time. A Christian cannot argue that the Muslim God is immoral if it ordered the same thing--you can't have it both ways. There may be other ways to call Islam an immoral religion if you want to, but killing apostates is not one of them--unless you are willing to call the Biblical God immoral as well on the same basis. At best you can call them "misguided" and living under an outdated dispensation. But acting as if the principal of killing apostates is something immoral when Muslims do it, but it wasn't when Jews did it, seems like a double-standard.
As killing apostates only involves those who are Muslims, it's a similar position.
Please refer to these passages, and please show how--from the Old Testament--there was to be a New Covenant that was not with Israel, but a third party, who would not be governed by these laws.
Apparently, God's "wisdom" didn't work, because time and time again the Israelites failed to follow God. The law did not "keep out the cancer" one bit.
But why isn't God interested in "keeping out the cancer" now?
Daniel
When I brought the subject up (I can't speak for AminM, but I brought it up first in this thread), it wasn't about Christian apostacy, but about apostacy and the Bible--specifically, under Torah. My contention is that if Torah is truly the word of God, then it cannot be argued that killing apostates is immoral or ungodly unless you are willing to apply the same standard to the Bible..
Hmmm...countering a fallacy with another (ad hominem) doesn't really seem terribly logical.
When you find them, please post it.
Agreed, it was not relevant.
So how was Saul of Tarsus, who punished converts to Christianity, not being faithful to Torah? See especially Deut 13:4-5. Where was it prophesied in the OT that obedience to Torah would come to an end one day?
So an apostate who did it in secret, not enticing others, was not to be killed? Only those who evangelized their point of view?
All well and good, but do you think that these "distinct laws" were immoral? Maybe "necessary evils"? Or where they good? If they were good then, why not now?
Yet it involves the Christian God. It is obvious from the Bible that there is nothing against God's moral nature in executing apostates--he even commanded it at one time. A Christian cannot argue that the Muslim God is immoral if it ordered the same thing--you can't have it both ways. There may be other ways to call Islam an immoral religion if you want to, but killing apostates is not one of them--unless you are willing to call the Biblical God immoral as well on the same basis. At best you can call them "misguided" and living under an outdated dispensation. But acting as if the principal of killing apostates is something immoral when Muslims do it, but it wasn't when Jews did it, seems like a double-standard.
As killing apostates only involves those who are Muslims, it's a similar position.
Please refer to these passages, and please show how--from the Old Testament--there was to be a New Covenant that was not with Israel, but a third party, who would not be governed by these laws.
Apparently, God's "wisdom" didn't work, because time and time again the Israelites failed to follow God. The law did not "keep out the cancer" one bit.
But why isn't God interested in "keeping out the cancer" now?
Daniel
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DanielRB
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Hi Everyone,
I was composing another lengthy post and decided against posting it.
The bottom line is this: I do not see any reason for Christians or Jews to criticize Muslims for killing apostates, if the grounds for such criticism is that it would be immoral to do so. Unless, of course, the critical Christians or Jews believe that the commands in Torah were not really from God, but based upon a misunderstanding of God's will.
Furthermore, suggesting that ordering the killing of apostates is somehow "immoral", I would suggest that it is realtively trivial in light of the belief of an eternal hell of punishment. Again, if a Christian or a Jew doesn't believe in hell, then they are at least being consistent. (And furthermore, there is very little evidence of eternal damnation in the Old Testament so I find Jews a little more on Scriptural grounds on this one.)
Finally, if God truly is All-mighty, then every death, no matter if ordered by God or not, is his responsibility. Ever murder of an innocent could be stopped by God--he chooses not to in every case that actually occurs. This also covers the idea that the conquest of Canaan was "immoral", but that God somehow isn't to be held responsible for the countless innocent deaths that occur, even if he doesn't order his followers to do the deed. The means of execution really don't matter all that much. God could have just as easily used a direct miracle (like the flood) to judge those whom he wishes.
Can a man judge God? Really, if you're a Muslim, in the end you're going to say "it is God's preogative to order what he wills"; and if you're a Christian, you'll pretty much say the same thing. The disagreement on this particular matter is purely the "marching orders of the day."
Yes, there are sharp differences between Islam, Christianity and Judaism. However, I don't find this one of them. And ultimately, followers of all religions find justification for their beliefs--or, if they can't justify it, say "I don't understand it, but I trust God." That is the essence of faith.
As for me, I struggle continually with the question of faith. God willing, he will one day put an end to my struggles and I'll find my rest in his will.
Daniel
I was composing another lengthy post and decided against posting it.
The bottom line is this: I do not see any reason for Christians or Jews to criticize Muslims for killing apostates, if the grounds for such criticism is that it would be immoral to do so. Unless, of course, the critical Christians or Jews believe that the commands in Torah were not really from God, but based upon a misunderstanding of God's will.
Furthermore, suggesting that ordering the killing of apostates is somehow "immoral", I would suggest that it is realtively trivial in light of the belief of an eternal hell of punishment. Again, if a Christian or a Jew doesn't believe in hell, then they are at least being consistent. (And furthermore, there is very little evidence of eternal damnation in the Old Testament so I find Jews a little more on Scriptural grounds on this one.)
Finally, if God truly is All-mighty, then every death, no matter if ordered by God or not, is his responsibility. Ever murder of an innocent could be stopped by God--he chooses not to in every case that actually occurs. This also covers the idea that the conquest of Canaan was "immoral", but that God somehow isn't to be held responsible for the countless innocent deaths that occur, even if he doesn't order his followers to do the deed. The means of execution really don't matter all that much. God could have just as easily used a direct miracle (like the flood) to judge those whom he wishes.
Can a man judge God? Really, if you're a Muslim, in the end you're going to say "it is God's preogative to order what he wills"; and if you're a Christian, you'll pretty much say the same thing. The disagreement on this particular matter is purely the "marching orders of the day."
Yes, there are sharp differences between Islam, Christianity and Judaism. However, I don't find this one of them. And ultimately, followers of all religions find justification for their beliefs--or, if they can't justify it, say "I don't understand it, but I trust God." That is the essence of faith.
As for me, I struggle continually with the question of faith. God willing, he will one day put an end to my struggles and I'll find my rest in his will.
Daniel
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Secundulus
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You are concerned that nowhere are the Laws of the Torah, those which defined the covenant, abrogated in the OT.
But in fact, they were by the Prophet Jeremiah.
" "Behold, the days are coming, declares the Lord, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and the house of Judah, not like the covenant that I made with their fathers on the day when I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt, my covenant that they broke, though I was their husband, declares the Lord. But this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, declares the Lord: I will put my law within them, and I will write it on their hearts. And I will be their God, and they shall be my people. And no longer shall each one teach his neighbor and each his brother, saying, ‘Know the Lord,’ for they shall all know me, from the least of them to the greatest, declares the Lord. For I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more."" (Jeremiah 31:31-34, ESV)
Jesus stated that HE was this new covenant predicted by the Prophet.
"And likewise the cup after they had eaten, saying, "This cup that is poured out for you is the new covenant in my blood." (Luke 22:20, ESV)
Also see Hebrews 8:7-13.
To be continued: Is this New covenant only for Israel, or does the OT iteself predict it is for all?
But in fact, they were by the Prophet Jeremiah.
" "Behold, the days are coming, declares the Lord, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and the house of Judah, not like the covenant that I made with their fathers on the day when I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt, my covenant that they broke, though I was their husband, declares the Lord. But this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, declares the Lord: I will put my law within them, and I will write it on their hearts. And I will be their God, and they shall be my people. And no longer shall each one teach his neighbor and each his brother, saying, ‘Know the Lord,’ for they shall all know me, from the least of them to the greatest, declares the Lord. For I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more."" (Jeremiah 31:31-34, ESV)
Jesus stated that HE was this new covenant predicted by the Prophet.
"And likewise the cup after they had eaten, saying, "This cup that is poured out for you is the new covenant in my blood." (Luke 22:20, ESV)
Also see Hebrews 8:7-13.
To be continued: Is this New covenant only for Israel, or does the OT iteself predict it is for all?
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Secundulus
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""Sing for joy and be glad, O daughter of Zion; for behold I am coming and I will dwell in your midst," declares the Lord. "Many nations will join themselves to the Lord in that day and will become My people. Then I will dwell in your midst, and you will know that the Lord of hosts has sent Me to you." (Zechariah 2:10-11, NASB95)
This verse directly says that at some point in the future, many nations, that is the gentiles, will join themselves to the covenant of God. Since it is the still in the future, this covenant will be the new one spoken of by Jeremiah.
In the OT, the word covenant meant an agreement between two parties that bound them together. By joining themselves to the Lord, the Nations are entering into his covenant.
Malachi, the last of the minor Prophets also speaks of this.
""For from the rising of the sun even to its setting, My name will be great among the nations, and in every place incense is going to be offered to My name, and a grain offering that is pure; for My name will be great among the nations," says the Lord of hosts." (Malachi 1:11, NASB95)
It is interesting to note that these words "and in every place incense is going to be offered to My name, and a grain offering that is pure," is directly reflected in the Catholic, Orthodox, and Anglican mass offered today throughout the world.
This verse directly says that at some point in the future, many nations, that is the gentiles, will join themselves to the covenant of God. Since it is the still in the future, this covenant will be the new one spoken of by Jeremiah.
In the OT, the word covenant meant an agreement between two parties that bound them together. By joining themselves to the Lord, the Nations are entering into his covenant.
Malachi, the last of the minor Prophets also speaks of this.
""For from the rising of the sun even to its setting, My name will be great among the nations, and in every place incense is going to be offered to My name, and a grain offering that is pure; for My name will be great among the nations," says the Lord of hosts." (Malachi 1:11, NASB95)
It is interesting to note that these words "and in every place incense is going to be offered to My name, and a grain offering that is pure," is directly reflected in the Catholic, Orthodox, and Anglican mass offered today throughout the world.
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LadyDeflora
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a wide variety of christian persecution runs rampant through out the world today.
the worst countries to be a christian in
the worst countries to be a christian in
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Some of the things that we are discussing are going further from the OP, but I will try to answer; but, for future posts, I will try to restrict my replies to things that are relevant to the OP. I want to note that the OP does not compare apostasy between Christianity and Islam nor tries to claim any type of superiority in that area. It was asked for information only. I hope to stay on that theme.
There are two different issues being addressed. The OP asked about people being prevented from leaving Islam by being killed for doing so, and the verses from the Bible that have been presented so far deal with a totally different matter--one where God gives a command to deal with those who try to lead Israel astray from obeying God. Leading people astray is not the same as preventing people from leaving. So, far, there is no scripture presented that shows that God gave commands to prevent anyone from leaving the Tribes of Israel. As far as I know, there was never such as command issued since it goes against the principles that God has established in the Bible. If I am wrong, then feel free to show otherwise.
There are two different issues being addressed. The OP asked about people being prevented from leaving Islam by being killed for doing so, and the verses from the Bible that have been presented so far deal with a totally different matter--one where God gives a command to deal with those who try to lead Israel astray from obeying God. Leading people astray is not the same as preventing people from leaving. So, far, there is no scripture presented that shows that God gave commands to prevent anyone from leaving the Tribes of Israel. As far as I know, there was never such as command issued since it goes against the principles that God has established in the Bible. If I am wrong, then feel free to show otherwise.
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originally posted by DanielRB
Also, you are trying to argue equivalence. The OP does not make any attempts to create an accusation against Muslims or tries to create any such standard. This seems to be your own invention along with AminM's. Even if you were correct, arguing a point from the other side does not change the argument currently being discussed. Why? Pointing out one's wrongs or faults does not erase the faults of the other. It is akin to me telling you that you can't discuss my lie because you also lied. The two don't wash each other out. Even if I were being hypocritical, that wouldn't change the reality of my lie and yours, for that matter.
Deu 14:1 Ye are the children of the LORD your God: ye shall not cut yourselves, nor make any baldness between your eyes for the dead.
Deu 14:2 For thou art an holy people unto the LORD thy God, and the LORD hath chosen thee to be a peculiar people unto himself, above all the nations that are upon the earth.
2Sa 7:23 And what one nation in the earth is like thy people, even like Israel, whom God went to redeem for a people to himself, and to make him a name, and to do for you great things and terrible, for thy land, before thy people, which thou redeemedst to thee from Egypt, from the nations and their gods?
Exo 19:1 In the third month, when the children of Israel were gone forth out of the land of Egypt, the same day came they into the wilderness of Sinai.
Exo 19:2 For they were departed from Rephidim, and were come to the desert of Sinai, and had pitched in the wilderness; and there Israel camped before the mount.
Exo 19:3 And Moses went up unto God, and the LORD called unto him out of the mountain, saying, Thus shalt thou say to the house of Jacob, and tell the children of Israel;
Exo 19:4 Ye have seen what I did unto the Egyptians, and how I bare you on eagles' wings, and brought you unto myself.
Exo 19:5 Now therefore, if ye will obey my voice indeed, and keep my covenant, then ye shall be a peculiar treasure unto me above all people: for all the earth is mine:
Exo 19:6 And ye shall be unto me a kingdom of priests, and an holy nation. These are the words which thou shalt speak unto the children of Israel.
Exo 19:7 And Moses came and called for the elders of the people, and laid before their faces all these words which the LORD commanded him.
Exo 19:8 And all the people answered together, and said, All that the LORD hath spoken we will do. And Moses returned the words of the people unto the LORD.
hopefully these will suffice for now. I have to look for others if needed. You can read the passages after Deu 14:2 to see some of the commands that he gave that made Israel a distinct nation, thus sanctifying them and making them a holy people unto Himself (God).
What Paul did was out of his personal hatred for Christ and the Church. He is shown this on the road to Damascus when Jesus confronted him and asked him why did he persecute Him.
Act 8:3 As for Saul, he made havock of the church, entering into every house, and haling men and women committed them to prison.
Act 8:4 Therefore they that were scattered abroad went every where preaching the word.
Act 9:1 And Saul, yet breathing out threatenings and slaughter against the disciples of the Lord, went unto the high priest,
Act 9:2 And desired of him letters to Damascus to the synagogues, that if he found any of this way, whether they were men or women, he might bring them bound unto Jerusalem.
Act 9:3 And as he journeyed, he came near Damascus: and suddenly there shined round about him a light from heaven:
Act 9:4 And he fell to the earth, and heard a voice saying unto him, Saul, Saul, why persecutest thou me?
I fail to see where apostasy is involved and were Paul killed anyone, even for their desire to leave their faith or for becoming Christians.
The question is this: Does the verse prevent those who want to leave from leaving? That is what the OP is addressing. Apostasy has to do with people converting to another faith or ideology. This verse is dealing with those who are trying to persuade others to go astray from God's commandments which are given to a specific group of people--Israel. Two things that others have not paid attention to is 1) these laws were not for those who were not living among the 12 tribes, which makes it limited, and 2) there is no prevention for any of the tribal members from leaving. Therefore, the proof of apostasy cannot be proven by those verses.
Deu 13:10 And thou shalt stone him with stones, that he die; because he hath sought to thrust thee away from the LORD thy God, which brought thee out of the land of Egypt, from the house of bondage.
Deu 13:11 And all Israel shall hear, and fear, and shall do no more any such wickedness as this is among you.
What has been described so far is not death for apostasy. Rather, it is death for enticing those from the Tribes to teach others to worship idols or do other things that will lead them astray. There is no true comparison between the two in the context of the OP. I am not sure why you haven't made the distinction yet.Hi, Peaceful Soul
When I brought the subject up (I can't speak for AminM, but I brought it up first in this thread), it wasn't about Christian apostacy, but about apostacy and the Bible--specifically, under Torah. My contention is that if Torah is truly the word of God, then it cannot be argued that killing apostates is immoral or ungodly unless you are willing to apply the same standard to the Bible..
Also, you are trying to argue equivalence. The OP does not make any attempts to create an accusation against Muslims or tries to create any such standard. This seems to be your own invention along with AminM's. Even if you were correct, arguing a point from the other side does not change the argument currently being discussed. Why? Pointing out one's wrongs or faults does not erase the faults of the other. It is akin to me telling you that you can't discuss my lie because you also lied. The two don't wash each other out. Even if I were being hypocritical, that wouldn't change the reality of my lie and yours, for that matter.
I made a true statement that was aimed to point out what was has started in this thread. I happened to mention that it is a continual thing with Muslims. That is not an adhominem, especially when the person is guilty of it. He (AminM) fits the category of Muslim, which is the category I am addressing.
Deu 14:1 Ye are the children of the LORD your God: ye shall not cut yourselves, nor make any baldness between your eyes for the dead.
Deu 14:2 For thou art an holy people unto the LORD thy God, and the LORD hath chosen thee to be a peculiar people unto himself, above all the nations that are upon the earth.
2Sa 7:23 And what one nation in the earth is like thy people, even like Israel, whom God went to redeem for a people to himself, and to make him a name, and to do for you great things and terrible, for thy land, before thy people, which thou redeemedst to thee from Egypt, from the nations and their gods?
Exo 19:1 In the third month, when the children of Israel were gone forth out of the land of Egypt, the same day came they into the wilderness of Sinai.
Exo 19:2 For they were departed from Rephidim, and were come to the desert of Sinai, and had pitched in the wilderness; and there Israel camped before the mount.
Exo 19:3 And Moses went up unto God, and the LORD called unto him out of the mountain, saying, Thus shalt thou say to the house of Jacob, and tell the children of Israel;
Exo 19:4 Ye have seen what I did unto the Egyptians, and how I bare you on eagles' wings, and brought you unto myself.
Exo 19:5 Now therefore, if ye will obey my voice indeed, and keep my covenant, then ye shall be a peculiar treasure unto me above all people: for all the earth is mine:
Exo 19:6 And ye shall be unto me a kingdom of priests, and an holy nation. These are the words which thou shalt speak unto the children of Israel.
Exo 19:7 And Moses came and called for the elders of the people, and laid before their faces all these words which the LORD commanded him.
Exo 19:8 And all the people answered together, and said, All that the LORD hath spoken we will do. And Moses returned the words of the people unto the LORD.
hopefully these will suffice for now. I have to look for others if needed. You can read the passages after Deu 14:2 to see some of the commands that he gave that made Israel a distinct nation, thus sanctifying them and making them a holy people unto Himself (God).
OK
What Paul did was out of his personal hatred for Christ and the Church. He is shown this on the road to Damascus when Jesus confronted him and asked him why did he persecute Him.
Act 8:3 As for Saul, he made havock of the church, entering into every house, and haling men and women committed them to prison.
Act 8:4 Therefore they that were scattered abroad went every where preaching the word.
Act 9:1 And Saul, yet breathing out threatenings and slaughter against the disciples of the Lord, went unto the high priest,
Act 9:2 And desired of him letters to Damascus to the synagogues, that if he found any of this way, whether they were men or women, he might bring them bound unto Jerusalem.
Act 9:3 And as he journeyed, he came near Damascus: and suddenly there shined round about him a light from heaven:
Act 9:4 And he fell to the earth, and heard a voice saying unto him, Saul, Saul, why persecutest thou me?
I fail to see where apostasy is involved and were Paul killed anyone, even for their desire to leave their faith or for becoming Christians.
The question is this: Does the verse prevent those who want to leave from leaving? That is what the OP is addressing. Apostasy has to do with people converting to another faith or ideology. This verse is dealing with those who are trying to persuade others to go astray from God's commandments which are given to a specific group of people--Israel. Two things that others have not paid attention to is 1) these laws were not for those who were not living among the 12 tribes, which makes it limited, and 2) there is no prevention for any of the tribal members from leaving. Therefore, the proof of apostasy cannot be proven by those verses.
As I have pointed out several times now, this is not a means of preventing people from leaving; rather, it is a measure to prevent people from turning others from God. God gave Israel a set of laws that they agreed to follow when they were at Mt Sinai. They have the obligation to follow them. They are knowledgeable of the covenant they made with God. They consciously choose to violate that covenant by worshiping idols and thus tempting and persuading others to do likewise. There is a big difference that you and others are not noting.
Judging on the surface, perhaps yes; but, when reading in context of the Bible, then no. God allows man to exercise his free will while still allowing His will to be done. Compared to the laws of those nations outside of Israel, these laws seem holy. Try reading some ancient history and you will hopefully be able to make some comparisons to see what I am saying.
It is still not a Christian issue. The OP deals with Muslims and you are dealing with OT. Christians are not Jews or Israelites. We don't have those laws to abide by.
I am waiting for verses that show this. Apostates are not people who lead people astray. They are people who choose to leave their current ideology or faith. You are comparing two different things, as I have already stated.
As already stated, this was never an argument from anyone here. There are no accusations against Muslims as far as I have read. If I missed it, then point it out to me.
Even if you were correct about the immorality, it would not change the need to ask the questions.
Again, we are supposed to be addressing the ability of people to leave their faith or to change their loyalty to a religion. The OP addresses someone prevented from leaving by being killed. You are discussing a different issue, which I haven't understood why you don't see the difference.
I think Secundulus is answering that. If necessary, I will put in my 2¢.
God gave the law to discourage others from within the tribes from leading others from God. How well it works, is not something that we can gauge absolutely since we can't see it from God's perspective. Even if it didn't cure the problem, it did prevent some from doing it as evidenced by the following verses:
Deu 13:10 And thou shalt stone him with stones, that he die; because he hath sought to thrust thee away from the LORD thy God, which brought thee out of the land of Egypt, from the house of bondage.
Deu 13:11 And all Israel shall hear, and fear, and shall do no more any such wickedness as this is among you.
Daniel, these things were done at that time. That was a theocracy that involved one nation. God's dealings with humanity is not confined to that theocracy. Israelites were distinguished from non Israelites just as Jews were distinguished from Gentiles. God dealt with each in a different manner. We have to study scripture to understand what we can about your question. Man has free will and God is wise to know how to deal with us. We do go astray, but God is not going to make us into robots. God did not stipulate complete prevention, no more that laws created by man can prevent everyone from immorality unlawfulness. It was a deterrent much like traffic tickets are issued to hopefully keep one from speeding. Whether you can comprehend it or not, God is weeding out the cancer. There is a judgment for all of us regardless to whether we see it or not. He has given us scripture to show some of it to us. We just need to read and study as well as pray to discern what we can. You can't judge what God is doing by what you perceive. God does not work on our schedule or expectations.
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Thank you for the verses. I did not realize that all of those instances were of Jews who were apostate. I have looked briefly at some and will go through the rest later.
I realize that there are many instances of Christians killing one another - Ireland comes to mind to me, but I am not sure if they have a biblical basis for their killings or not - I would have to study that issue.
Actually Daniel, Jews don't believe in heaven and hell. Do Muslims?
Your point about God being in control of everything is a valid point and something to think about. Thank you for sharing.
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Exodus 32:27-28DanielRBActually, the Bible itself records such instances, when there were "reform" efforts before the exile. Some of these were quite famous--I'm surprised you've forgotten them: Exodus 32:27-28; Numbers 25:5;1 Kings 18:40; 2 Kings 10:25-28; 2 Kings 11:18.
Exo 32:27 And he said unto them, Thus saith the LORD God of Israel, Put every man his sword by his side, and go in and out from gate to gate throughout the camp, and slay every man his brother, and every man his companion, and every man his neighbour.
Exo 32:28 And the children of Levi did according to the word of Moses: and there fell of the people that day about three thousand men.
Exo 32:30 And it came to pass on the morrow, that Moses said unto the people, Ye have sinned a great sin: and now I will go up unto the LORD; peradventure I shall make an atonement for your sin.
Exo 32:35 And the LORD plagued the people, because they made the calf, which Aaron made.
This is not death for apostasy. This is for worshiping idols. This is not the same as the OP is addressing.
Numbers 25:5
Num 25:1 And Israel abode in [bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse]tim, and the people began to commit whoredom with the daughters of Moab.
Num 25:2 And they called the people unto the sacrifices of their gods: and the people did eat, and bowed down to their gods.
Num 25:3 And Israel joined himself unto Baalpeor: and the anger of the LORD was kindled against Israel.
Num 25:4 And the LORD said unto Moses, Take all the heads of the people, and hang them up before the LORD against the sun, that the fierce anger of the LORD may be turned away from Israel.
Num 25:5 And Moses said unto the judges of Israel, Slay ye every one his men that were joined unto Baalpeor.
This one is exactly like the others. It is about worshiping false gods. Where is the killing for trying to leave?
1 Kings 18:40
1Ki 18:37 Hear me, O LORD, hear me, that this people may know that thou art the LORD God, and that thou hast turned their heart back again.
1Ki 18:38 Then the fire of the LORD fell, and consumed the burnt sacrifice, and the wood, and the stones, and the dust, and licked up the water that was in the trench.
1Ki 18:40 And Elijah said unto them, Take the prophets of Baal; let not one of them escape. And they took them: and Elijah brought them down to the brook Kishon, and slew them there.
Again, this is about idol worship.
2 Kings 10:25-28
2Ki 10:25 And it came to pass, as soon as he had made an end of offering the burnt offering, that Jehu said to the guard and to the captains, Go in, and slay them; let none come forth. And they smote them with the edge of the sword; and the guard and the captains cast them out, and went to the city of the house of Baal.
2Ki 10:26 And they brought forth the images out of the house of Baal, and burned them.
2Ki 10:27 And they brake down the image of Baal, and brake down the house of Baal, and made it a draught house unto this day.
2Ki 10:28 Thus Jehu destroyed Baal out of Israel.
2Ki 10:29 Howbeit from the sins of Jeroboam the son of Nebat, who made Israel to sin, Jehu departed not from after them, to wit, the golden calves that were in Bethel, and that were in Dan.
The theme is still idol worship.
2 Kings 11:18
2Ki 11:18 And all the people of the land went into the house of Baal, and brake it down; his altars and his images brake they in pieces thoroughly, and slew Mattan the priest of Baal before the altars. And the priest appointed officers over the house of the LORD. Again, this is concerning idolatry. This is about keeping the House of the Lord pure.
One of the agreements that Israel made with God via the Covenant via Moses was to not worship idols. When they broke that aspect of the covenant, God punished them with death in all of the instances that you have presented. This is not the same as preventing someone from leaving the tribe for denouncing a religion because they no longer wanted to remain. These are acts of sin from false worship. There is no true comparison of this to the OP. You need to look for verses that demonstrate that the congregation members were prevented from leaving the congregation because they changed their beliefs and that God forced them to remain within the camp or else they would be killed for changing their faith or afilliation. That is a closer scenario to what the OP addresses.
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DanielRB
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Hi Secundulus,
I'm always confused by Jeremiah 31 being used to say that Torah will be done away with. See what I just bolded out of your post. There is no suggestion that Torah would be abrogated in whole or in part, but that it would be internalized. How is having Torah in your heart abrogating it? If you know something by heart, does it cease to exist?
Even Moses wrote:
Daniel
I'm always confused by Jeremiah 31 being used to say that Torah will be done away with. See what I just bolded out of your post. There is no suggestion that Torah would be abrogated in whole or in part, but that it would be internalized. How is having Torah in your heart abrogating it? If you know something by heart, does it cease to exist?
Even Moses wrote:
Daniel
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DanielRB
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Hi Again, Secundulus
Again, no suggestion of abrogation of Torah. Indeed, look at another verse that suggests that the Gentiles will obey Torah:
See what I bolded. This suggests that in an age future to Isaiah's prophecy, gentiles who keep the Sabbath and offer burnt offerings (both elements of Torah and not characteristics of the New Testament) would be joined to his people.
Of course, this can be "spiritualized" or "dispensationalized" into a future millinium. However, I find a lot of problems with spiritualizing the fulfillment of something when context does not suggest it. It is the a priori assumption that the New Testament is correct that suggests spiritualization, not the text or context itself.
Daniel
Again, no suggestion of abrogation of Torah. Indeed, look at another verse that suggests that the Gentiles will obey Torah:
See what I bolded. This suggests that in an age future to Isaiah's prophecy, gentiles who keep the Sabbath and offer burnt offerings (both elements of Torah and not characteristics of the New Testament) would be joined to his people.
Of course, this can be "spiritualized" or "dispensationalized" into a future millinium. However, I find a lot of problems with spiritualizing the fulfillment of something when context does not suggest it. It is the a priori assumption that the New Testament is correct that suggests spiritualization, not the text or context itself.
Daniel
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DanielRB
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Hi christianmomof3,
Ok, you're welcome.
I'm sure that many did so...whether or not they used the Bible correctly to justify the killing, I'm sure they tried.
"Ask two Jews a question, get three opinions." Actually, they do believe in a world to come...but, as I pointed out, there is little OT evidence for an eternal hell (or heaven, for that matter). That doesn't keep Talmud from discussing it extensively.
Yes, very much so.
Again, you're welcome. In all actuality, for years I struggled with "immoral" killings in the Bible, searching for a religion that avoided things like the genocide in Canaan. However, when I finally realized that an almighty God is responsible for every continued life--every breath we take is a gift from him--and every death, then the question became much different. It is not just the acts directly attributed to God or ordered by God in the pages of the Bible (or any other book) that we should ponder, but the world as we see it. If we can accept that an almighty God is responsible for it all, then these things shouldn't really give us trouble at all.
Daniel
Ok, you're welcome.
I'm sure that many did so...whether or not they used the Bible correctly to justify the killing, I'm sure they tried.
"Ask two Jews a question, get three opinions."
Actually, they do believe in a world to come...but, as I pointed out, there is little OT evidence for an eternal hell (or heaven, for that matter). That doesn't keep Talmud from discussing it extensively.Yes, very much so.
Again, you're welcome.
In all actuality, for years I struggled with "immoral" killings in the Bible, searching for a religion that avoided things like the genocide in Canaan. However, when I finally realized that an almighty God is responsible for every continued life--every breath we take is a gift from him--and every death, then the question became much different. It is not just the acts directly attributed to God or ordered by God in the pages of the Bible (or any other book) that we should ponder, but the world as we see it. If we can accept that an almighty God is responsible for it all, then these things shouldn't really give us trouble at all.Daniel
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DanielRB
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Hi Again, peaceful soul
You're confusing the specific with the general. The OP was about apostacy in general. A specific example of apostasy is idolatry. How is idolatry not apostasy?
If one wanted to leave Israel, I see no law preventing his or her emigration...but the same holds true for Islam, if I'm not mistaken. There are many lands that believe in freedom of religion today to which a former Muslim can immigrate to practice (or refrain from practicing) his or her new religion (or lack thereof).
Again, idol worship is a specific form of apostasy. Any time one leaves a religion--it doesn't matter to what religion he or her changes to (or changes to no religion at all), he or she becomes an apostate to his or her former religion.
Again, idol worship is still apostasy.
Agreed; and idolatry is still a form of apostasy.
Can you demonstrate that in Islam apostates who attempt to leave and migrate to a non-muslim land prevented, according to Islamic law (not necessarily the law of any particular muslim nation, but according to the Quran and Sunnah)?
Again, according to Shairah law, should a former Muslim be forced to stay and be killed rather than migrate to another land?
Daniel
You're confusing the specific with the general. The OP was about apostacy in general. A specific example of apostasy is idolatry. How is idolatry not apostasy?
If one wanted to leave Israel, I see no law preventing his or her emigration...but the same holds true for Islam, if I'm not mistaken. There are many lands that believe in freedom of religion today to which a former Muslim can immigrate to practice (or refrain from practicing) his or her new religion (or lack thereof).
Again, idol worship is a specific form of apostasy. Any time one leaves a religion--it doesn't matter to what religion he or her changes to (or changes to no religion at all), he or she becomes an apostate to his or her former religion.
Again, idol worship is still apostasy.
Agreed; and idolatry is still a form of apostasy.
Can you demonstrate that in Islam apostates who attempt to leave and migrate to a non-muslim land prevented, according to Islamic law (not necessarily the law of any particular muslim nation, but according to the Quran and Sunnah)?
Again, according to Shairah law, should a former Muslim be forced to stay and be killed rather than migrate to another land?
Daniel
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