Can Christians lose there salvation?

Originally posted by cougan
A closer examination of the text reveals no such thought in Jesus' words.  Notice the relationship expressed in John 10:27: "My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me."  There is a mutual recognition between shepherd and sheep.  Moreover, the sheep follow the shepherd, indicating activity on the part of the sheep, which, translated to the relationship between Jesus and His followers, reveals that those of whom Jesus is speaking are faithful disciples.

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The point you seem to be missing entirely is that there is a distinction made between those who are not His sheep and those that are.  The fact that there is action on the part of the sheep has never been disputed, certainly not by Calvin.  On the contrary, Calvin's theology explicitly purports an irresistable summons from the Creator to those whom are predestined for such action.  Those "faithful disciples" of whom you speak are fallen creations whose depraved nature is only overcome by the very call of which you speak.

What you fail to see is that in the above verses it is God that will not leave us or stop loving us. It is us that can stop loving him and turn away from him.

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Turning away from Him a natural result of our fallen nature that continues to battle against our new nature.  What you fail to see is that the verse says, "neither death nor life, nor angels nor principalities nor powers, nor things present nor things to come, nor height nor depth, NOR ANY OTHER CREATED THING, shall be able to separate us from the love of God which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.  Unless, of course, you are contending that "any other created thing" would be every created thing except us, whom are created.

You see cougan, we are saved by grace, not works, therefore, to lose our salvation by works would be senseless unless you do not believe God knew we would continue to sin even after we are saved.  Would God save us knowing that at the first opportunity we would respond according to our old nature thereby losing our salvation?  Of course not.  The thing you need to realize is that the surety of salvation is not even controlled by us:

1 Peter 1:3-5
Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who according to His abundant mercy has begotten us again to a living hope through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead, to an inheritance incorruptible and undefiled and that does not fade away, RESERVED IN HEAVEN FOR YOU, who are kept by the power of God through faith for salvation ready to be revealed in the last time.

It wasn't granted according to your actions.  It was granted according to His sovereign mercy.  It is incorruptible, undefiled, and does not fade away.  It is held for you in Heaven by the power of God.  I thank God every day it isn't up to me to maintain my salvation.  God knows I'd have lost it a hundred times by now.  We place our faith in Him, not our ability to earn or keep our salvation.

God bless and good night

· Psalms 65:4 – Blessed is the man You choose, And cause to approach You, That he may dwell in Your courts. . . .

· Jeremiah 31:3-4 – “Yes, I have loved you with an everlasting love; Therefore with lovingkindness I have drawn you. Again I will build you, and you shall be rebuilt, O virgin of Israel! You shall again be adorned with your tambourines, And shall go forth in the dances of those who rejoice.”

· Romans 1:7 – To all who are in Rome, beloved of God, called to be saints: Grace to you and peace from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ.

· Matthew 11:25-27 – At that time Jesus answered and said, “I thank You, Father, Lord of heaven and earth, that You have hidden these things from the wise and prudent and have revealed them to babes. Even so, Father, for so it seemed good in Your sight. All things have been delivered to Me by My Father, and no one knows the Son except the Father. Nor does anyone know the Father except the Son, and the one to whom the Son wills to reveal Him.”

· John 6:44 – “No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him; and I will raise him up at the last day.”

· John 10:27 – “My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me.”

· John 12:32 – “And I, if I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all peoples to Myself.”

· Romans 8:28-30 – And we know that all things work together for good to those who love God, to those who are the called according to His purpose . . . Moreover whom He predestined, these He also called; whom He called, these He also justified; and whom He justified, these He also glorified.

· 1 Corinthians 1:9 – God is faithful, by whom you were called into the fellowship of His Son, Jesus Christ our Lord.

· 1 Corinthians 1:22-24 – For Jews request a sign, and Greeks seek after wisdom; but we preach Christ crucified, to the Jews a stumbling block and to the Greeks foolishness, but to those who are called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God and the wisdom of God.

· 1 Corinthians 1:26-27 – For you see your calling, brothers, that not many wise men according to the flesh are called, not many mighty, not many noble. But God has chosen the foolish things of the world to confound the wise; and God has chosen the weak things of the world to confound the things which are mighty

· Galatians 1:6 – I marvel that you are turning away so soon from Him who called you in the grace of Christ, to a different gospel

· Galatians 1:15-16 – But when it pleased God, who separated me from my mother’s womb and called me through His grace, to reveal His Son in me, that I might preach Him among the Gentiles .



As we see, the doctrines of grace are clearly defined. Its not Calvinism we follow, but God's Word. Calvin was just another tool who put it together. Praise God for that.

Originally posted by jayemcintyre
Reformationist, are you saying that someone who had been a Christian and then turned and started worshipping Satan would still go to Heaven?

I know that we are saved by grace, but there still has to be recognition of that grace on our part and if we stop believing in that grace then I truly believe we will not get the benefit if it.

Your sister in Christ

Jay

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true Christians will never turn from there salvation or calling by the Spirit.  (John 8:36) So if the Son sets you free, you will be free indeed.

God Be Praised

Originally posted by jayemcintyre
Reformationist, are you saying that someone who had been a Christian and then turned and started worshipping Satan would still go to Heaven?

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"Being a Christian" is not something that we do, it's something that we are.  I do not believe that one that has true faith could ever discount what the Lord has shown them to the point where they start to actively worship the devil.  Once the knowledge of who God is is gained the concept you could somehow forget it and decide that it was all a lie is impossible, IMO.  That's why I believe that a saved person cannot commit blasphemy of the Holy Spirit.  If a person has been born again the Spirit of God lives within that person and God is not divided against Himself (1 John 3:9).  It would be like seeing your birth cirtificate and then denying that you know what it said.  You could very well say the words, but it would not be the truth of what you actually know.  If you are a Christian you know that God is real.  Can you imagine living now as if you didn't know that?  Of course people backslide and get back into their old sinful ways.  However, the difference is that all the while, they know what they are doing is wrong and probably desire to repent of it.  It is that desire that shows clearly that the person has not suffered the hardening of their heart and has not committed this profound act of hatred that God has determined He will not forgive.  God does not leave us.  Therefore, no matter that we may deny it, one of the great things that the Lord has given us is that we feel convicted when we act contrary to what He has enlightened us to be the Truth.  Though we could live contrary to it, we could never fully believe that the Gospel is not true.

I know that we are saved by grace, but there still has to be recognition of that grace on our part and if we stop believing in that grace then I truly believe we will not get the benefit if it.

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I agree to the extent that the benefit of God's continued grace in the life of a believer is a life that is marked by an ability to deal with the tribulations of life in a godly way.  We will most often suffer the repercussions of dealing with things in an ungodly way.  Sometimes it's worse than others.  However, these are the measures God uses to show us that we have strayed from the narrow road.  They are not salvitic in nature. 

God bless,

Don

Originally posted by Job_38
As we see, the doctrines of grace are clearly defined. Its not Calvinism we follow, but God's Word. Calvin was just another tool who put it together. Praise God for that.

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Nicely said Job!

What I am saying is that what Calvin and others taught, is not of their own belief, but of what the Words of God say.

Calvinism is basically this:

Total depravity (Original Sin)
Unconditional election (God's Election)
Limited atonement (Particular Redemption)
Irresistible grace (Effectual Calling)
Perseverance of the Saints

The first is that we are sinners since we are born, the second is that God chooses us to become Christians, that is, true followers of Christ. the Third is that Christ died for the elect, that is who God called. The third is Irresistable Grace. This means that we cannot reject the Holy Spirits calling. The last is the Perseverance of the Saints. This means we can never lose our salvation, no matter what.


To what you said earlier, I am delighted to hear of the news of you not abandoning your faith. This shows that God, at least how I see it, that God is truly in you.

Some good books to read would be the Book of Joshua and on up for some good History and the gospels and the Acts of the Apostle for some good history.

Well what if you backslide and get into sin after being saved? That is a loss of salvation. To go back on the Lord and sinning again...and not going to church. That is a loss of salvation I would say. So my answer would be yes, that Christians can lose their salvation.

Originally posted by ChristDied4U!
Well what if you backslide and get into sin after being saved? That is a loss of salvation. To go back on the Lord and sinning again...and not going to church. That is a loss of salvation I would say. So my answer would be yes, that Christians can lose their salvation.

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Don't you think the Lord knows that we will continue to sin even after we're saved?  He made provision for this.  Jesus death didn't just pay for your sins up until you were saved.  It paid for the sins you will commit throughout your whole life.  Are you saved?  If so, do you sin?  Does that mean you've lost your salvation?

God bless

The most important thing for us as christians is to strive and persue to KNOW GOD!

Many believe that they have salvation because they have quoted words that others have told them to, but we must all KNOW GOD to truely be saved!

God said when Jesus returns He will tell many "Depart from me, I never KNEW YOU."

True salvation is KNOWING GOD!

May that be our main goal as christians.. TO KNOW GOD!

Originally posted by Warrior FC
The most important thing for us as christians is to strive and persue to KNOW GOD!

Many believe that they have salvation because they have quoted words that others have told them to, but we must all KNOW GOD to truely be saved!

God said when Jesus returns He will tell many "Depart from me, I never KNEW YOU."

True salvation is KNOWING GOD!

May that be our main goal as christians.. TO KNOW GOD!

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Strange...according to what you post true salvation is God knowing you.

No bro,
What I mean to say is True salvation is US KNOWING GOD! There are many that know the scriptures, know ABOUT God, but honestly do not KNOW GOD! God desires us to have a relationship with Him where we one on one, KNOW HIM. Otherwise we are just a religious people that talk about Him, read about Him, tell others about Him, but don't really even KNOW HIM.

-With Love in Christ-

This thread should have been moved here awhile back. Thanks for your patience.

I am very sorry, but I have no idea what this means. I am often ashamed but I know very little about the history of my religion or the Bible, I know only of the love God, my Father, has from me, as it may be pertinent to the argument and I would appreciate it if you could explain what you mean.

Jay

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Sadly I find this to be the fact among most professing Christians today. They tend to pick one single point of doctrine, such as OSAS and based on what they heard a preacher say, build their entire Christian experience on it. That single issue of losing your salvation is refuted by at least 100 different Scriptures I know. But Christianity is much, much, more than that.

It would seem to me that before people spend too much time worried about losing their salvation they would be more concerned about WHY God saved them in the first place. It surely must not be because He had a quota to fill, in order to earn a bonus or something.

Perhaps after He saved you He had a job for you to do. It is easy to determine by reading the Book of John. In fact you willl never understand much about your faith or the Bible until you get into the Book of John.

2 Timothy 2:15: "Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth."

THAT is the key! STUDY and RIGHTLY DIVIDE!

As for once saved always saved....DO you BELIEVE ALL of God's Word to be TRUE?

If you answer YES, then read Psalms 37:28. Then ask yourself, "how long is forever?" Now either God meant what He said there or He lied. If He lied then we are all doomed anyway then aren't we? Because if He lied there He surely lied somewhere else too and we cannot trust Him at all. So if you cannot accept this Scripture then take the scissors and cut that one from your Bible. There are many many others you will have to remove also, but one other in particular I will give you.

1 John 5:13: "These things have I written unto you that believe on the name of the Son of God; that ye may know that ye have eternal life, and that ye may believe on the name of the Son of God."

You wont need that one either, because if you believe on the Name of the Son of God, and you do not have E-T-E-R-N-A-L life then that asuurance is bogus too.

Did you notice too in that verse that it says you HAVE (present tense) eternal life? Pray tell how can you live longer than eternity? How is it conceivable to lose something that is eternal? If you lose it, it was NOT eternal, was it?

His Peace and Blessings to you.

Originally posted by Warrior FC
No bro,
What I mean to say is True salvation is US KNOWING GOD! There are many that know the scriptures, know ABOUT God, but honestly do not KNOW GOD! God desires us to have a relationship with Him where we one on one, KNOW HIM. Otherwise we are just a religious people that talk about Him, read about Him, tell others about Him, but don't really even KNOW HIM.

-With Love in Christ-

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That's a very good point.  And, amazing as you might think it , I agree.  Truly having a relationship with our Creator and Savior is much different than "knowing Scripture."  I think one of the places you and I differ is that I believe God must literally change us, rebirth us into a new creation, before we will ever desire to have a relationship with Him.  And, as difficult as it is for some people to accept, God does not rebirth everyone.

God bless

Originally posted by Reformationist
Truly having a relationship with our Creator and Savior is much different than "knowing Scripture."  I think one of the places you and I differ is that I believe God must literally change us, rebirth us into a new creation, before we will ever desire to have a relationship with Him.  And, as difficult as it is for some people to accept, God does not rebirth everyone.

God bless

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I think one thing follows the other.  I was guilty of knowing scripture without really knowing God; but guess what?  Taking time to read the scriptures and learn what God is about drew me to His irresistable saving grace so that when I ready He woke my soul and made me fully aware of His presence.  Now what would have happened if I died before I accepted Him in my heart is a purely academic question.  By his wonderful mercy I am alive and aware of His wonderful mysterious power.  I am thankful for what He has done for me and await His coming in glory during this Advent season.

That's an oxymoron.

How can one lose by a work, what was not gained by a work but an eternal decree of God.

Not to mention that all our works of evil ARE atoned for, John 19:30.

Reformationist....What exactly does the title reformationist mean?
I've heard of it many times but am curious to the understanding of it?