Fighting for Morality! Vote YES on Prop 6!

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Beanieboy

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I watched Milk last night, showing the life of Harvey Milk, who helped organize gay rights in San Francisco, and found against people getting fired for simply being gay, police arresting gays simply drinking in a gay bar, and fighting against Anita Bryant's "Save Our Children" campaign, that urged a vote on repealing laws that were simply preventing employment discrimination:
Employment discrimination refers to discriminatory employment practices such as bias in hiring, promotion, job assignment, termination, and compensation, and various types of harassment.

In San Francisco, Briggs was trying to pass Prop 6. Prop 6 would prevent any homosexual from teaching, would fire anyone who already had a job, and fire anyone who supported them.

While there are both similarities in differences in the Props, the arguments remain the same. Bryant, on trying to appear gay rights laws, so that they could once again be discriminated by the "moral people":

“As a mother, I know that homosexuals cannot biologically reproduce children; therefore, they must recruit our children.”
(Which is clearly false, since gay children come from gay parents. But the same theme is there: that gays are predatory, or that they cannot produce.)

“If gays are granted rights, next we'll have to give rights to prostitutes and to people who sleep with St. Bernards and to nailbiters.”
(And if we allow them to marry, soon, men will be able to marry the family dog. Yet, there are gay rights, and people aren't sleeping with St. Bernards because of it. Who knew? And here, gays are lumped into a group with prostitutes, people who practice inappropriate behavior with animals, and um, nailbiters? Guess what? You can't fire someone from, say, a Bond Brokerage, because she bites her nails. Prostitutes have rights - the same rights to a speedy trial, a lawyer, the ability to vote. It's as if she thinks that some people should have rights, and some not.)

“If homosexuality was the normal way, God would have made Adam and Bruce”
(There should be no gay marriage - God made Adam and Eve, not Adam and Steve. But who made Steve, because he is, indeed, here. So, to sum up what Anita is saying, it should be okay to deny someone an apartment, a job, or be harrassed by police simply because they are gay, because they are not "normal" in her eyes. That's moral?)

On prop 6. she came to California to support the Briggs Initiative in 1978, which failed, but would have banned homosexuals or anyone advocating the "gay lifestyle" from teaching in public schools. "I don't hate the homosexuals," she wrote in a fundraising letter. "But as a mother, I must protect my children from their evil influence."
(I don't homosexuals, I just don't think they should be able to marry. I need to protect the institution of marriage, and protect my children from thinking that it is an option. But did she love homosexuals, in trying to repeal laws that only protected them from injustice or discrimination? How is that loving?)

Celebrating her victory in a sound bite that aired nationwide, Bryant promised she would "seek help and change for homosexuals, whose sick and sad values belie the word 'gay' which they pathetically use to cover their unhappy lives." (Being gay is not an orientation, and simply a choice, and thus, they can change, and marry someone of the opposite sex. They can be "healed" from their sick and unhealthy lifestyle. Only we have found that gays don't change, and that their orientation is what makes them want to date someone of the same sex, not a simple choice of deciding between fish and chicken. Most heterosexuals will even say that they don't know if they could have a same sex encounter, partly because the idea does interest them or disgusts them, or because they simply aren't attracted to the same sex, but then assume that gay people can just change, or that they should.)

"I believe that more than ever before there are evil forces round about us, often posing as good"
(It's an ironic statement. No one looks back at what she, and Falwell, and a group of others were doing to try to maintain the ability to discriminate LGBTs legally with honor, or admiration. Watching the movie, you look back repulsed, like watching those who tried to defend segregation, or even those who used the bible to support their purpose.

They claimed to be fighting against a changing moral climate, to preserve morality, when in fact, they were preserving discrimination and injustice. They were trying to act harmfully toward their neighbor, and inscribe it into law to make sure that they were not punished for it.

She was, in short, doing something evil, as posing as good, as protection of children, of protection of family, as protection of morality, while supporting and pushing for something quite immoral, and daring to stamp it with God's support.

As I watched the movie, I could only think of the photo snapped of the Little Rock Nine, Nine brave black children entering a white school, the beginning of the end of segregation, while a wild, angry woman in the back yells something, her hatred showing, but thinking she is the one who is, the moral one, the good one.

little_rock_desegregation_1957.jpg


I thought of the KKK that burns crosses, claim to be Christian, and claim that they are only wanting to return the nation to God's original intent - of a white Christian nation.

I thought of signs in historical US that are embarrassments:
Image7.gif


The oppressor always thought himself right. He sometimes even looked to the bible to help support him, and found it, with a little self interpretation.
So, I think that in terms of Prop 8, that this is yet another sore spot that will go down in US history, like children asking their parents why black people weren't allowed to drink out of the same drinking fountain as whites.

It is not a fight for Morality in passing Prop 8, but is a fight to legalize discrimination, and if that is the true end goal, then those are the people that are trying to destroy the country, the society, by trying to erase the First Amendment saying that the government can neither prohibit nor endorse any one religion, try to erase the part we hold most dear:

We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness.
 

angellica

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I watched Milk last night, showing the life of Harvey Milk, who helped organize gay rights in San Francisco, and found against people getting fired for simply being gay, police arresting gays simply drinking in a gay bar, and fighting against Anita Bryant's "Save Our Children" campaign, that urged a vote on repealing laws that were simply preventing employment discrimination:


In San Francisco, Briggs was trying to pass Prop 6. Prop 6 would prevent any homosexual from teaching, would fire anyone who already had a job, and fire anyone who supported them.

While there are both similarities in differences in the Props, the arguments remain the same. Bryant, on trying to appear gay rights laws, so that they could once again be discriminated by the "moral people":
Those bolded parts don't make sense. Also, what propS are you talking about? You only mentioned prop 6.
 
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Beanieboy

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Those bolded parts don't make sense. Also, what propS are you talking about? You only mentioned prop 6.

Watching Milk, the story about Harvey Milk fighting for gay rights, and against Prop 6, which would allow schools to legally fire a teacher simply for being gay, as well as, gay supporters, the arguments are almost identical as Prop 8. I felt like I was watching something current.

Example: Gay people can't get married because they can't have children.
Prop 6: We have to protect our children against gay people. They can't have children, so they have to recruit. (so, apparently, it's ok to discriminate because of children. Yeah, it makes no sense, but no reason I have heard to support Yes on 8 has.)

Prop 8, banning gays from marrying: We need to protect marriage, and the family.
Prop 6, and other attempts to repeal gay rights protection: We have to protect our families and children, and country from this immorality (when they were only protecting legal discrimination against gays.)

Prop 8: If we allow men to marry men, then we will have to allow men to marry their sister or the family dog.
Prop 6: If we give rights to gays, then we will have to give rights to murderers, thieves, and child molesters.

Anita claimed to be defending morality, but when one looks at it now, she clearly wasn't. There is no way that you can argue that she was. She was defending the right to have legal discrimination, legal injustice, and I assume that this business with Prop 8 will be overturned, simply to be one more embarrassment on the US's history.

White, who talked about family values, the importance of morality, and the threats of gays, ended up killing the Mayor and Milk.
 
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Polycarp_fan

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I watched Milk last night, showing the life of Harvey Milk, who helped organize gay rights in San Francisco, and found against people getting fired for simply being gay, police arresting gays simply drinking in a gay bar, and fighting against Anita Bryant's "Save Our Children" campaign, that urged a vote on repealing laws that were simply preventing employment discrimination:

Why is the theme always children? Why not see the connection?

In San Francisco, Briggs was trying to pass Prop 6. Prop 6 would prevent any homosexual from teaching, would fire anyone who already had a job, and fire anyone who supported them.

And this was long before Gay Straight Alliance clubs being run by gay activists in public schools.

While there are both similarities in differences in the Props, the arguments remain the same. Bryant, on trying to appear gay rights laws, so that they could once again be discriminated by the "moral people":

Maybe it's time to start lidtening to the concerns of parents rather than to attempt to rule them and their children?

“As a mother, I know that homosexuals cannot biologically reproduce children; therefore, they must recruit our children.”
(Which is clearly false, since gay children come from gay parents. But the same theme is there: that gays are predatory, or that they cannot produce.)

Children come from their parents. Gay is an expression of same-gender sexual desires.

“If gays are granted rights, next we'll have to give rights to prostitutes and to people who sleep with St. Bernards and to nailbiters.”

100% correct about the prostitutes. Frisco is attempting to legalize prostitution right now. (As if it wasn't already.)

(And if we allow them to marry, soon, men will be able to marry the family dog. Yet, there are gay rights, and people aren't sleeping with St. Bernards because of it.

There are animal brothels in Europe right now.

. . . Who knew? And here, gays are lumped into a group with prostitutes, people who practice inappropriate behavior with animals, and um, nailbiters? Guess what? You can't fire someone from, say, a Bond Brokerage, because she bites her nails. Prostitutes have rights - the same rights to a speedy trial, a lawyer, the ability to vote. It's as if she thinks that some people should have rights, and some not.)

The Folsom Street fair is more than enough proof to establish the concerns of pro-family people opposed to promoting same-gender sex as well-founded.

“If homosexuality was the normal way, God would have made Adam and Bruce”
(There should be no gay marriage - God made Adam and Eve, not Adam and Steve. But who made Steve, because he is, indeed, here. So, to sum up what Anita is saying, it should be okay to deny someone an apartment, a job, or be harrassed by police simply because they are gay, because they are not "normal" in her eyes. That's moral?)

Why not to undersatnd where oppostion to gay culture comes from? So many people are opposed to gay activism, you have to ask yourself how and why.

On prop 6. she came to California to support the Briggs Initiative in 1978, which failed, but would have banned homosexuals or anyone advocating the "gay lifestyle" from teaching in public schools.

Massresistence has shown that Ms. Bryant was very avandt garde in her concerns about what would be taught to children in schools.

"I don't hate the homosexuals," she wrote in a fundraising letter. "But as a mother, I must protect my children from their evil influence."


Good parents protect their children from outside negative influences. There is absolutely nothing wrong with that.

(I don't homosexuals, I just don't think they should be able to marry. I need to protect the institution of marriage, and protect my children from thinking that it is an option. But did she love homosexuals, in trying to repeal laws that only protected them from injustice or discrimination? How is that loving?)

Celebrating her victory in a sound bite that aired nationwide, Bryant promised she would "seek help and change for homosexuals, whose sick and sad values belie the word 'gay' which they pathetically use to cover their unhappy lives." (Being gay is not an orientation, and simply a choice, and thus, they can change, and marry someone of the opposite sex. They can be "healed" from their sick and unhealthy lifestyle. Only we have found that gays don't change, and that their orientation is what makes them want to date someone of the same sex, not a simple choice of deciding between fish and chicken. Most heterosexuals will even say that they don't know if they could have a same sex encounter, partly because the idea does interest them or disgusts them, or because they simply aren't attracted to the same sex, but then assume that gay people can just change, or that they should.)

And all these years and beliefs haven't changed much at all. Why not ask yourself what the gay community does to have so many people feeling so negative about them. As a Christian, I know why people oppose Christianity. Why do you gays pretend there is no foundation for your opposition to feel as they do?

"I believe that more than ever before there are evil forces round about us, often posing as good"
(It's an ironic statement. No one looks back at what she, and Falwell, and a group of others were doing to try to maintain the ability to discriminate LGBTs legally with honor, or admiration. Watching the movie, you look back repulsed, like watching those who tried to defend segregation, or even those who used the bible to support their purpose.

Oh you mean this is "just" another anti-Christian propaganda piece coming out of "Hollywood?" No surpise there. It'll win an Academy award for sure.

They claimed to be fighting against a changing moral climate, to preserve morality, when in fact, they were preserving discrimination and injustice. They were trying to act harmfully toward their neighbor, and inscribe it into law to make sure that they were not punished for it.

Our youth culture is one of depravity, violence and vice. Bryant was yet again ahead of her time but with facts in place.

She was, in short, doing something evil, as posing as good, as protection of children, of protection of family, as protection of morality, while supporting and pushing for something quite immoral, and daring to stamp it with God's support.

Well the Apostles don't oppose her words.

As I watched the movie, I could only think of the photo snapped of the Little Rock Nine, Nine brave black children entering a white school, the beginning of the end of segregation, while a wild, angry woman in the back yells something, her hatred showing, but thinking she is the one who is, the moral one, the good one.

Gay sex is not the same thing as slavery. Blacks want you gays to stop with the comparison. Didn't Prop 8 teach you anything?

little_rock_desegregation_1957.jpg


I thought of the KKK that burns crosses, claim to be Christian, and claim that they are only wanting to return the nation to God's original intent - of a white Christian nation.

I thought of signs in historical US that are embarrassments:
Image7.gif

KKK hold parades to celebrate their way of life. Gays hold parades to celebrate their way of life.

The oppressor always thought himself right. He sometimes even looked to the bible to help support him, and found it, with a little self interpretation.

Gays are all over the Church now with Gay theology in hand. And fascinating enough, scripture does not support their behaviors any more than it does the KKK.

So, I think that in terms of Prop 8, that this is yet another sore spot that will go down in US history, like children asking their parents why black people weren't allowed to drink out of the same drinking fountain as whites.

Blacks are asking you gays to stop with the comparisons. I believe it was 7% of Black voters that also voted YES on Prop 8.

It is not a fight for Morality in passing Prop 8, but is a fight to legalize discrimination,

GLBT's already have the right of civil unions with all of the same "benefits" of marriage. I'm sure slaves would love freedom being called polka dots as long as freedom comes with polka dots labels.

. . . and if that is the true end goal, then those are the people that are trying to destroy the country, the society, by trying to erase the First Amendment saying that the government can neither prohibit nor endorse any one religion, try to erase the part we hold most dear:

The First Amendmant is about freedom for religious people to be able to be free from being shutup by those that hate religion. Look it up.

We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness.

That is not the First Amendment. It's not even the preamble to the Constitution.

Here it is:

We the People of the United States, in Order to form a more perfect Union, establish Justice, insure domestic Tranquility, provide for the common defence, promote the general Welfare, and secure the Blessings of Liberty to ourselves and our Posterity, do ordain and establish this Constitution for the United States of America.

Promoting the GENERAL welfare, would be to protect the family.

Not alter the definition of it.
 
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beechy

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I saw Milk on Thursday. Not a perfect movie, but overall incredibly well done and very moving -- and Sean Penn was brilliant. Such a timely piece given how gay rights have regained center stage in today's political consciousness. I agree that the similarity between yesterday's Prop.6 and today's Prop. 8 debate rhetoric is striking. The Milk / Moscone deaths were such a tragedy.
 
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beechy

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We the People of the United States, in Order to form a more perfect Union, establish Justice, insure domestic Tranquility, provide for the common defence,promote the general Welfare, and secure the Blessings of Liberty to ourselves and our Posterity, do ordain and establish this Constitution for the United States of America.

Promoting the GENERAL welfare, would be to protect the family.

Not alter the definition of it.
My family deserves protection just as much as yours, buddy.
 
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WatersMoon110

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Why is the theme always children?
I feel that so many anti-gay-rights organizations and people focus on the "threat to our children" because otherwise they would unable to gain any support for their measures. In my opinion, they have to dishonestly scare people, or people would see through their other arguments.

If one wants to get stupid Americans "up in arms", one must simply claim that their children are in danger.

I've seen organizations of all types use this dishonest tactic (I remember when there was a movement in the town I was born in to keep fluoride out of the drinking water, since it might "harm the children"). And yet, just like Prop 8 didn't effect school children or what they were taught, most of these "dangers" to children don't really exist.
 
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revanneosl

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I feel that so many anti-gay-rights organizations and people focus on the "threat to our children" because otherwise they would unable to gain any support for their measures. In my opinion, they have to dishonestly scare people, or people would see through their other arguments.

If one wants to get stupid Americans "up in arms", one must simply claim that their children are in danger.

I've seen organizations of all types use this dishonest tactic (I remember when there was a movement in the town I was born in to keep fluoride out of the drinking water, since it might "harm the children"). And yet, just like Prop 8 didn't effect school children or what they were taught, most of these "dangers" to children don't really exist.

It goes back much farther in history than America. "Danger to the children" is one part of a standard set of accusations used against various groups (including Christians) which are collectively known as "the blood libel".

Jews, Christians, Communists, Muslims, Hindus, Wiccans and Satanists have all been accused (and tried, and imprisoned and judicially murdered) for it. Those of you old enough to remember the "Satanic Panic" of the 1980s, in which dozens of innocent Day Care Center workers were accused of the most horrific actions, know how easily populations can be stirred into behaving insanely by the blood libel.

The blood libel seems, throughout history, to rear its ugly head when societies are experiencint times of great anxiety. That being the case, I think we can expect to see more of it in the next few years.
 
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beechy

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The Folsom Street fair is more than enough proof to establish the concerns of pro-family people opposed to promoting same-gender sex as well-founded.
You luuuuuuuv to bring up the Folsom Street fair in these homosexual threads. The Folsom Street fair is a BDSM leather fetish fair. So if it's for gay folks, straight folks, and everyone in between who are into the BDSM leather scene.
 
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lazor

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I don't want my children near her. Please don't allow her to teach or work with children, I must protect my children from evil woman. I don't want my sons turning into woman at all, and being around her may cause that.


Conclusion: You don't get to discriminate against people who do no wrong to protect your children.
 
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KCKID

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Those of you old enough to remember the "Satanic Panic" of the 1980s, in which dozens of innocent Day Care Center workers were accused of the most horrific actions, know how easily populations can be stirred into behaving insanely by the blood libel.

Are you referring to The McMartin Trial? If so I would urge everyone to see the excellent movie (Indictment) based on this particular case which graphically illustrates how insanity rules the minds of the majority when it comes to 'children'. It demonstrates quite accurately as to how they can be so easily influenced to think the worst of someone based on ...practically nothing! People would literally murder a person accused of an offense against a child whether they are guilty or not ...simply because the mud has been thrown. Logic and reason are nowhere to be found once the wheels have been set into motion.

Again, the movie is Indictment starring James Woods and several other excellent actors. It's not a movie about child molesters. It's a movie that demonstrates how stupid and dangerous 'concerned' people can be driven once they become incited by the equally stupid and dangerous media.
 
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Beanieboy

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The saddest thing about it is that when you watch the movie, and hear her in retrospect, claiming to work for God, work for morality by way of removing laws that protect gays from unjust firing (ie, firing a teacher for simply being gay, firing an accountant for simply being gay), watch her saying, "I believe their are evil forces all around us," she condemns herself. She looks hateful, not loving. She looks self righteous, not good.
She and others with her look like a candy coated version of the KKK, daring to use the bible for what they are doing, harming others, and calling it "protecting themselves."

And I imagine that people will look back on Prop 8, one of the first attempts to actually add discrimination to the Constitution, in the nation's history.
 
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Polycarp_fan

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I feel that so many anti-gay-rights organizations and people focus on the "threat to our children" because otherwise they would unable to gain any support for their measures. In my opinion, they have to dishonestly scare people, or people would see through their other arguments.

If one wants to get stupid Americans "up in arms", one must simply claim that their children are in danger.

But our youth are crumbling from sexual licentiousness and moral relativism in massive numbers.

I've seen organizations of all types use this dishonest tactic (I remember when there was a movement in the town I was born in to keep fluoride out of the drinking water, since it might "harm the children").

The Catholic Church has been sued (and lost) millions and millions of dollars precisely because children were harmed. And, from listening to these children all grown up, they were harmed when a child.

And yet, just like Prop 8 didn't effect school children or what they were taught, most of these "dangers" to children don't really exist.

Kate Perry's little "questioning" song would prove otherwise.

If it is held by GLBT's that you must be gay if you have gay sex, wouldn't the same logic hold for all of the Gays and Lesbians that "used to be" in straight relationships are actually straight?

Three more questions for you:

Why don't GLBT orgs teach abstinence since they are entering the "marriage" angle for Gay Life? (Especially so-called Gay Christians.)

Why don't GLBT orgs speak out against homosexuality being a fad for straight kids to try out? (No pun intended?)

WHY IS homosexuality so reviled (even in ancient Greece) throughout the ages?
 
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keith99

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It goes back much farther in history than America. "Danger to the children" is one part of a standard set of accusations used against various groups (including Christians) which are collectively known as "the blood libel".

Jews, Christians, Communists, Muslims, Hindus, Wiccans and Satanists have all been accused (and tried, and imprisoned and judicially murdered) for it. Those of you old enough to remember the "Satanic Panic" of the 1980s, in which dozens of innocent Day Care Center workers were accused of the most horrific actions, know how easily populations can be stirred into behaving insanely by the blood libel.

The blood libel seems, throughout history, to rear its ugly head when societies are experiencint times of great anxiety. That being the case, I think we can expect to see more of it in the next few years.

I remember one case and one strange spinoff.

The McMartin preschool had been a family business for a long time. Alegations that were quite absurd were made. One was that kids were taken into tunnels under the school. Of course the 80s are recent enough that there was technology to prove there never were any tunnels. Did that make a difference? Perhaps a small one as eventually they wer acquitted, but not before the family business was ruined.

At the time my mother was teaching at a private school and I knew several teachers there. All that I talked to found the case absurd because many of the allegations would have required every single teacher to be in on things and things still would have ocme to light quickly. (The claims were that there were many off campus excursions. In the real world parents come by because a child has a dentists appointment or the like without any notice.).

The add on. A family was accused of abuse. It wsa unfounded. But what happened was that their door was kicked in at 2 in the morning and the kids forcable taken from their parents. But I'm sure this had no lasting effect on the children. (sarcasm)
 
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ReverendDG

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But our youth are crumbling from sexual licentiousness and moral relativism in massive numbers.
thats just a bunch of nonsense, you can't even show this is true.
yes they don't follow your oppressive religious morals, but this doesn't mean that they are turning into monsters


The Catholic Church has been sued (and lost) millions and millions of dollars precisely because children were harmed. And, from listening to these children all grown up, they were harmed when a child.
what does this have to do with anything? the RCC priests were pedophiles, and the church didn't do anything but hide it


Kate Perry's little "questioning" song would prove otherwise.
who is kate perry and why should i care?

If it is held by GLBT's that you must be gay if you have gay sex, wouldn't the same logic hold for all of the Gays and Lesbians that "used to be" in straight relationships are actually straight?
but no one says this, its nothing but a straw-man.
what is gay sex PF? can you even show there is a difference? because as far as i know, sex is sex.
you are gay because you are attracted to the same sex, you have emotional feelings for the same sex, why can't you just get this?

Three more questions for you:

Why don't GLBT orgs teach abstinence since they are entering the "marriage" angle for Gay Life? (Especially so-called Gay Christians.)
why would anyone teach abstinence? it doesn't work, why expect GLBTQ groups to do it?

Why don't GLBT orgs speak out against homosexuality being a fad for straight kids to try out? (No pun intended?)
why would they need to?! what the heck kind of question is that? its stupid.
are you just going to stand there and ask asinine questions like this? have you not read any posts about people being gay? if a person is straight why would they "try it out"?

WHY IS homosexuality so reviled (even in ancient Greece) throughout the ages?
go read about greece please, the culture believed being like a woman, ie: passive partner was insulting.
at most they reviled the idea of being the receiver, even considering it worthy to fight over.

this is just fail all around PF, its like you just ignore what people say so you can keep fighting over the same batch of ideas.
 
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SiderealExalt

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You know. This was all before my time so until I learned about the movie I didn't know anything about the prop and the controversy over gay teachers. The more I learn about all of this the more disturbed I am. You insert Jew or Black or such else into that equation and people would have been up in arms...
 
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Beanieboy

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You know. This was all before my time so until I learned about the movie I didn't know anything about the prop and the controversy over gay teachers. The more I learn about all of this the more disturbed I am. You insert Jew or Black or such else into that equation and people would have been up in arms...

Depends on the decade you are referring to.
 
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