How can there even be an authority on God?

Jade Margery

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I would like to present the following scenario for your intellectual stimulation.

* * *

A boy buys an ant farm. He puts it together, fills it with dirt and releases the ants. Seeing them get to work, he says excitedly to his mother, 'Look! Watch them build tunnels!'

The ants have a vague idea that the Boy exists, and they hear his voice. But it is so different to their own that they only understand words that make sense to them: build tunnels. They take this as a direct order from the Boy and write it down in little ant books and begin building tunnels.

But then conflict breaks out. Some ants believe that to build tunnels means lots and lots of tunnels, while some believe that there should only be a few good ones, and a couple extremely heretical ants assert that the holy words were 'build tunnel' not 'tunnels', so there should only be one tunnel, and that one straight down. Further schisms are caused by arguments over how wide and how deep the tunnels should go. Before long, the ants are fighting and killing each other, asserting that only their way of tunneling will please the Boy.

Meanwhile the Boy is watching, fascinated, and trying to figure out why all his ants are killing each other.

The ants eventually settle down. The Boy is bored, so he pours some water in the farm to see what happens. Predictably, a lot of tunnels are ruined, a lot of ants die, and the remaining ones conclude that the dead ones were sinfully supporting the wrong kind of tunnel building. They rebuild with better, 'right' tunnels.

Time passes. Sometimes the boy forgets to put food in the farm. The ants raise their feelers and cry for food, and eventually the boy remembers and puts some food in there, and then the ants know that their pleas were answered. They worship a just and merciful Boy who loves them, and who surely starved them to teach them a lesson of some sort.

Sometimes the boy shakes up the ant farm, wanting to see a new one built. The ants have many interpretations for the devastation this causes. Some think the Boy is testing them, some think he is following a preconceived plan that determines the fate of each one of them individually. By the fact that he gives them food and holy words, they decide that he loves them, every one.

The Boy does like his ants. He watches them for hours sometimes. But most of the time, he has something better to do with his time.

* * *

The point of this is not to say God is a capricious child or anything of the sort. I am suggesting that if there is a God, he/she/it is probably farther beyond us than we are beyond ants. We can pretty much assume that ants cannot comprehend our motives and actions. How can any of us assume to know God's?

Some claim that we can know through the Bible, which is the word of God. But wherever the words came from, they were put onto paper by a man. And then read and translated into a new language by another man, and then again read and translated into another language by another man. And then another person interprets it and calls it truth. Try running a sentence through four or five translators, let alone generations of them. It's a 2000 year old game of telephone.

Some say Jesus was a conduit for the word of God. I admit I am not as up to snuff on my Bible as I would like to be, but I do not think any of the New Testament was actually written by Jesus' own hand. (Please correct me if I'm wrong). I was under the impression that it was mostly written after his death, from the memories of people who knew him. Again, translated by translators.

So how can one man legitimately say he knows God better than another? How can your personal faith be applied to anyone--ANYONE--else? From where does one person receive the right to say they know the Truth? What makes the Pope any Holier than Fred Phelps? Or me? Or you?

These are my questions. I welcome your answers.
 

Bellicus

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If we take the bible as a source of information about God, then we know that God indeed is beyond our understanding, "his thoughts are higher then our thoughts" and we can't understand his ways. He are on a much higher level then us, and not a human like us. Our knowledge about the world we live in is even limited, and we can only see tiny parts of the full picture, and those tiny parts don't make much sense at all, when we don't see the wholeness.

When it comes to what God wants for us, this is described in detail in the first 5 books of the bible. This is what Judaists follow. Christians believe that all the laws in these books are fulfilled if a person love their neighbor as them self, and love God. So ultimately what God want for us is to love each other. Christians don't think that laws of Moses are something that is required to follow to find salvation, but that these laws only were given to Moses to show the world what is sin. So that is all the law is useful for, to show that there is a lot of things people do, that is not what God want for them. But instead Christians depend on the mercy given by Jesus, since no man is able to follow all these laws and be perfect for God, and to follow the Holy Spirit that we believe is given to all those that believe in Jesus and want to follow him.

When it comes to the bible it self, then it is written that all in there is inspired by God. The only thing God himself ever wrote was the ten commandments. So I am not sure if it can be said that all the information in the bible is exactly like God wants it. But there are examples of where for example Paul says things like "This is me speaking, not the Lord", witch could suggest that in the other places he speak, then it is actually the Lord that is telling him what to write. But Jesus also said that people won't find eternal life by study the scriptures, but that the meaning of the scriptures is to "point to him".

Hope that answered some of your questions.
 
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icarusforde

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Personally, i dont think that there can be an authority on God. the simple fact that our God does not live/reside/inhabit a time/space universe makes Him impossible for us to understand - He is eternal, we are mortal. We die, but He always lives on outside of time.

The other thing is, the more I personally learn about God, the more i learn that there is so much more to learn.

For example, say i thought there was 100 cm of God. I learn 98 cm, then realise that there is another 999 metres of God. so i learn that, bringing me to 999.98 metres of God knowledge. As i look on, i see the knowledge yet to be learnt extend into another 999 kilometres. I learn this, and realise that there is another 1000 light years, another 1000 parsecs, etc.

God is too big for one person, or any collection of people, to understand.
 
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Im_A

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I would like to present the following scenario for your intellectual stimulation.

* * *

A boy buys an ant farm. He puts it together, fills it with dirt and releases the ants. Seeing them get to work, he says excitedly to his mother, 'Look! Watch them build tunnels!'

The ants have a vague idea that the Boy exists, and they hear his voice. But it is so different to their own that they only understand words that make sense to them: build tunnels. They take this as a direct order from the Boy and write it down in little ant books and begin building tunnels.

But then conflict breaks out. Some ants believe that to build tunnels means lots and lots of tunnels, while some believe that there should only be a few good ones, and a couple extremely heretical ants assert that the holy words were 'build tunnel' not 'tunnels', so there should only be one tunnel, and that one straight down. Further schisms are caused by arguments over how wide and how deep the tunnels should go. Before long, the ants are fighting and killing each other, asserting that only their way of tunneling will please the Boy.

Meanwhile the Boy is watching, fascinated, and trying to figure out why all his ants are killing each other.

The ants eventually settle down. The Boy is bored, so he pours some water in the farm to see what happens. Predictably, a lot of tunnels are ruined, a lot of ants die, and the remaining ones conclude that the dead ones were sinfully supporting the wrong kind of tunnel building. They rebuild with better, 'right' tunnels.

Time passes. Sometimes the boy forgets to put food in the farm. The ants raise their feelers and cry for food, and eventually the boy remembers and puts some food in there, and then the ants know that their pleas were answered. They worship a just and merciful Boy who loves them, and who surely starved them to teach them a lesson of some sort.

Sometimes the boy shakes up the ant farm, wanting to see a new one built. The ants have many interpretations for the devastation this causes. Some think the Boy is testing them, some think he is following a preconceived plan that determines the fate of each one of them individually. By the fact that he gives them food and holy words, they decide that he loves them, every one.

The Boy does like his ants. He watches them for hours sometimes. But most of the time, he has something better to do with his time.

* * *

The point of this is not to say God is a capricious child or anything of the sort. I am suggesting that if there is a God, he/she/it is probably farther beyond us than we are beyond ants. We can pretty much assume that ants cannot comprehend our motives and actions. How can any of us assume to know God's?

Some claim that we can know through the Bible, which is the word of God. But wherever the words came from, they were put onto paper by a man. And then read and translated into a new language by another man, and then again read and translated into another language by another man. And then another person interprets it and calls it truth. Try running a sentence through four or five translators, let alone generations of them. It's a 2000 year old game of telephone.

Some say Jesus was a conduit for the word of God. I admit I am not as up to snuff on my Bible as I would like to be, but I do not think any of the New Testament was actually written by Jesus' own hand. (Please correct me if I'm wrong). I was under the impression that it was mostly written after his death, from the memories of people who knew him. Again, translated by translators.

So how can one man legitimately say he knows God better than another? How can your personal faith be applied to anyone--ANYONE--else? From where does one person receive the right to say they know the Truth? What makes the Pope any Holier than Fred Phelps? Or me? Or you?

These are my questions. I welcome your answers.

well the way i see it is:
God defined by many is infinite
we are defined as finite

so any writer of scriptures of any religion, the pope, any religious figure today, past or future couldn't and can't get it completely right, because of the mere type of beings we are. how can a finite being be able to understand an infinite being?

but there's an underlining point with the fact that a finite being can't fully grasp the infinite in my opinion that stares at us straight in the face. if we can't grasp it, nine times out of ten it doesn't exist and never has existed. but that is probably off topic and i apologize if it is.
 
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Jan 12, 2004
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I would like to present the following scenario for your intellectual stimulation.

* * *

A boy buys an ant farm. He puts it together, fills it with dirt and releases the ants. Seeing them get to work, he says excitedly to his mother, 'Look! Watch them build tunnels!'

The ants have a vague idea that the Boy exists, and they hear his voice. But it is so different to their own that they only understand words that make sense to them: build tunnels. They take this as a direct order from the Boy and write it down in little ant books and begin building tunnels.

But then conflict breaks out. Some ants believe that to build tunnels means lots and lots of tunnels, while some believe that there should only be a few good ones, and a couple extremely heretical ants assert that the holy words were 'build tunnel' not 'tunnels', so there should only be one tunnel, and that one straight down. Further schisms are caused by arguments over how wide and how deep the tunnels should go. Before long, the ants are fighting and killing each other, asserting that only their way of tunneling will please the Boy.

Meanwhile the Boy is watching, fascinated, and trying to figure out why all his ants are killing each other.

The ants eventually settle down. The Boy is bored, so he pours some water in the farm to see what happens. Predictably, a lot of tunnels are ruined, a lot of ants die, and the remaining ones conclude that the dead ones were sinfully supporting the wrong kind of tunnel building. They rebuild with better, 'right' tunnels.

Time passes. Sometimes the boy forgets to put food in the farm. The ants raise their feelers and cry for food, and eventually the boy remembers and puts some food in there, and then the ants know that their pleas were answered. They worship a just and merciful Boy who loves them, and who surely starved them to teach them a lesson of some sort.

Sometimes the boy shakes up the ant farm, wanting to see a new one built. The ants have many interpretations for the devastation this causes. Some think the Boy is testing them, some think he is following a preconceived plan that determines the fate of each one of them individually. By the fact that he gives them food and holy words, they decide that he loves them, every one.

The Boy does like his ants. He watches them for hours sometimes. But most of the time, he has something better to do with his time.

* * *

The point of this is not to say God is a capricious child or anything of the sort. I am suggesting that if there is a God, he/she/it is probably farther beyond us than we are beyond ants. We can pretty much assume that ants cannot comprehend our motives and actions. How can any of us assume to know God's?

Some claim that we can know through the Bible, which is the word of God. But wherever the words came from, they were put onto paper by a man. And then read and translated into a new language by another man, and then again read and translated into another language by another man. And then another person interprets it and calls it truth. Try running a sentence through four or five translators, let alone generations of them. It's a 2000 year old game of telephone.

Some say Jesus was a conduit for the word of God. I admit I am not as up to snuff on my Bible as I would like to be, but I do not think any of the New Testament was actually written by Jesus' own hand. (Please correct me if I'm wrong). I was under the impression that it was mostly written after his death, from the memories of people who knew him. Again, translated by translators.

So how can one man legitimately say he knows God better than another? How can your personal faith be applied to anyone--ANYONE--else? From where does one person receive the right to say they know the Truth? What makes the Pope any Holier than Fred Phelps? Or me? Or you?

These are my questions. I welcome your answers.

Jesus says in the Bible he is the way, the TRUTH, and the life (John 14:6). Thus, anything Jesus says is truth and can be applied to anyone. This does not mean folks can be judgemental, which I admit some are, but saying that something is right and wrong is not being judgemental when God Himself has said whether or not it's right or wrong. W/ God there are absolutes and these absolutes never change, regardless of what people think or who says them so long as God established them as truth to begin with.

If there is no absolute truth, then no one can say anything is for sure, including the fact that there is no absolute truth. Either everything goes (including murder in cold blood, rape, prejudice, hatred, etc.) because everyone has the right to do whatever, and I mean whatever, is right in his/her own eyes. If continuing on that, then laws are technically wrong since they limit what is right and wrong in each person's own eyes, and etc.

The bottom line is that if there is no abs. truth...no outside standard, i.e. God, then everything would be total chaos and life would essentially be pointless. Without truths, we technically know nothing and can hold no one accountable for anything...including pinning their truths on others since that is essentially right for them and their own truth.
 
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PhilosophicalBluster

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Jesus says in the Bible he is the way, the TRUTH, and the life (John 14:6). Thus, anything Jesus says is truth and can be applied to anyone. This does not mean folks can be judgemental, which I admit some are, but saying that something is right and wrong is not being judgemental when God Himself has said whether or not it's right or wrong. W/ God there are absolutes and these absolutes never change, regardless of what people think or who says them so long as God established them as truth to begin with.

I am right because my book says I'm right.

Turning and turning in a widening gyre...
 
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I am right because my book says I'm right.

Turning and turning in a widening gyre...

The bible has no power of itself and it absolutely meaningless without God saying it means something. It is the truths within that bear power and you need God just to recieve that from it.

Nevertheless, back on topic...if there is no abs. truth...then what does it matter? What's the big deal that folks believe a book is truth and proclaim it verbally? It is truth "for them" and based on such reasonings judging them critically is fallicious. Besides, why must individuals that believe in the bible keep "their" truth to themselves, i.e. not be permitted to believe others could benefit from the same truths and encourage such actions, when others who go by other truths are allowed to openly state their opinions and even state these opinions as truths?

This is inconsistant with the "what's right for you may not be right for me since no one has a monopoly on truth" belief because to say that such individuals are wrong is in itself wrong because one cannot know for sure if they are wrong. Thus, by this theory forcing (which is nearly impossible to begin with because it takes a person's individual will to believe something) their beliefs on another is wrong, however encouraging, teaching and fully believing such truths are indeed truths is not wrong.

To me it seems like a double standard where everyone can voice "their own truths" and live however so long as it is within their benefit, but those who go by a more Christian and theological perspective must keep their truth to themselves and not be allowed to act like it is truth or even encourage going by such truths.
 
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Rauffenburg

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The bible has no power of itself and it absolutely meaningless without God saying it means something. It is the truths within that bear power and you need God just to recieve that from it.

The question here is: How do you know the bible to be the word of God except by already believing it is the word of God? A self-affirming belief does not automatically become true by self-affirmation.

Thus, by this theory forcing (which is nearly impossible to begin with because it takes a person's individual will to believe something) their beliefs on another is wrong, however encouraging, teaching and fully believing such truths are indeed truths is not wrong.

But you could force people to submit to certain standards of conduct which you estimate to be the right norms of behaviour. And belief in the truth of the biblical word implies a belief in the truth that the norms outlined there are the true norms of conduct which will lead to a demand of enforcing others to behave in accordance with these rules of conduct.

Of course you are right on one point: There are no subjective truths. Truth is an inherently objective notion. But in my eyes this does not help in defending a literal interpretation of the bible. It opens up the possibility of a refutation of any possible faith. And I believe that the rules of conduct we can find in the minds of many conservative Christians are wrong - I would even go that far to say, that their idea of sin is itself a sin, i.e. morally evil.
 
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