Originally posted by Evee
If we can't step outside of God's will,
then we are nothing more than puppets.
I think the important thing to do first is for us all to acknowledge that we are limited. Our view of our circumstances is limited. Our understanding of the things we experience is limited. We also have to understand that God is greater than anything we do. He is greater than our decisions. God says that He works
all things to the good
of those who love Him and are called according to His purpose. There are some very important things about that verse (Rom 8:28). First, He works
all things to the good. There is nothing you can think, not think, do, or not do that aren't going to be worked to the good. Second, and equally important, is who's good God works all things to. Is it everyone? No. It is only those who love Him and are called according to His purpose.
Let me use an example. Let's say there is this Christian guy named Jack. He's married to a young Christian lady named Jill. Let's say that they go to a movie and as they're leaving a guy jumps out and shoots Jack. Now, this is a terrible tragedy, no doubt. Obviously Jill would be heartbroken. Her ability to trust that, though his death pained her deeply, God will use that terrible event to increase her faith in Him is what will make the difference in her spiritual growth. There are countless ways that this story can end. And, obviously, we don't trust God in every part of our lives. However, when we do, we grow in faith. It looks something like this:
1 Samuel 17:37
Moreover David said, "The LORD, who delivered me from the paw of the lion and from the paw of the bear, He will deliver me from the hand of this Philistine."
As tragic as some points of our lives are, our faith that the Lord will deliver us from them is increased and we are able to draw upon those events as a source of strength when we are faced with future trials.
That would mean God's wants some to prosper and some to suffer.
Evee, I know that it's difficult to see the Lord in this light because we so often forget that all mankind has earned death. Had God served the justice that his creation had earned then no person would be saved. No created being has ever earned salvation. We have all earned death. When studying the Scriptures that support this you must keep in mind that all mankind has sinned and fallen short of the glory of God. This is no small thing. God said the wages of sin are death. Man has earned death. Let me show you a verse that supports this point:
Romans 9:21-24
Does not the potter have power over the clay, from the same lump to make one vessel for honor and another for dishonor?
What if God, wanting to show His wrath and to make His power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath prepared for destruction, and that He might make known the riches of His glory on the vessels of mercy, which He had prepared beforehand for glory, even us whom He called, not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles?
Now these verses clearly show that God has made, from the same lump of clay, vessels for honor and vessels for destruction. He has made vessels that were made for destruction, and others were made as vessels of His glorious mercy. To understand these verses in a biblical light you must remember that all mankind deserves destruction. All men have sinned. The fact that He, in His mercy, picks out some of those who have earned their fate and instead shows them His mercy is an example of His holiness, not His unfairness.
Let me make one last point on this. It is true that God, in His sovereignty, has prepared some for the purpose of destruction. For example:
Romans 9:17,18
For the Scripture says to the Pharaoh, "For this very purpose I have raised you up, that I may show My power in you, and that My name may be declared in all the earth." Therefore He has mercy on whom He wills, and whom He wills He hardens.
Clearly God raised Pharaoh up for the purpose of showing His own sovereign power over the most powerful human being on earth. He put Pharaoh in the position of power for the purpose of bringing Him down, for the purpose of showing the world that even Pharaoh was subject to His sovereign design.
Is it in God's will to be a murderer as some are.
I do not believe that God delights in the suffering of His creation, saved or unsaved. However, the suffering in a Christian life serves a totally different purpose than that of an unsaved person. Even our Lord exemplified this:
Hebrews 5:8
though He was a Son, yet He learned obedience by the things which He suffered.
The magnificence and sovereignty of the Lord is truly baffling at times. However, if we truly desire His Will to be done then we must trust that He can bring it about. If we truly are able to call Him God we must acknowledge that He is God. He is not subject to us or our decisions. His Will will always be done.
I believe it to be choices that we make.
There are definitely repercussions for our choices. No disagreement there. However, the choices we make are totally inconsequential when it comes to whether the Lord's Will will be done. We can only trust in Him if He is not subject to His own creation. Think about it. Would you honestly worship God if you thought His plan for you was so out of control as to be thwarted by your fallenness.
I would believe that many would resent the fact that they are homeless and hungary.
Well, many homeless and hungry people are suffering the consequences of their own sinfulness. Additionally, I have met homeless people that seemed much more content in the love they have found in the Lord than people who are quite wealthy. The Lord uses different means to sanctify His children. You ever notice that the things you struggle with keep popping up in your life? It's not by accident. It's the Lord bringing those things into your life to teach you obedience.
If we could not get out of the will of God, that just don't sound like a loving God to me.
Not to say this is what you mean, but alot of people say this because they strive to put God into their version of love. Is it loving for God to allow bring someone who is very difficult into your life? If it sanctifies you, you better believe it's loving. God uses many things in our lives to expose our sinfulness. Who is He trying to expose it to? Ourselves, that's who. What does Paul say about that?:
Romans 7:7-12
What shall we say then? Is the law sin? Certainly not! On the contrary, I would not have known sin except through the law. For I would not have known covetousness unless the law had said, "You shall not covet." But sin, taking opportunity by the commandment, produced in me all manner of evil desire. For apart from the law sin was dead. I was alive once without the law, but when the commandment came, sin revived and I died. And the commandment, which was to bring life, I found to bring death. For sin, taking occasion by the commandment, deceived me, and by it killed me. Therefore the law is holy, and the commandment holy and just and good.
It is only by God exposing our sinfulness that we are sanctified from it. How could we strive to be more godly in an area of struggle if we don't even know we have a problem?
If God is a God of love than we certainly can step outside his will.
See, now I would say that if God is a God of love He would never let me stray from His Will.
I believe we are not a predestined puppet.
Me either. I just believe we are predestined.
I don't believe God's will is done on earth at this time.
Who's will is done then? What's wrong with God? Has He just completely lost control of His own creation?
God bless
I was not upset nor did I think that you were putting me down with what you said. I have learned a lot from you since we first argued... ummm I mean discussed this whole sovereignty/ freewill thing. You are an asset to this forum. 
So I think we should keep on posting.
