What happens at the second coming?

Jon0388g

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Is that an assumption or a Biblical fact?


Well it would be a Biblical fact since I quoted the Scripture itself. I'll post it one more time:


"He that is unjust, let him be unjust still: and he which is filthy, let him be filthy still: and he that is righteous, let him be righteous still: and he that is holy, let him be holy still. And, behold, I come quickly; and my reward is with me, to give every man according as his work shall be." Revelation 22:11-12


After saying "He that is holy, let him be holy still", Jesus says "I come quickly".



So, in answer to the OP, character is not changed at the second coming, based on Revelation 22:11-12.




Jon
 
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Jon0388g

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Then what was the point of a savior? If we can attain perfection on this world, why didn't God simply send the Holy Spirit and let Him do the job?


Which comes first? Justification, or sanctification? Without the merits of Christ, our righteousness is as filthy rags.



I'm glad you at least acknowledge the work of perfection is up to the Holy Spirit, not us. What do you think of Revelation 22:11-12? If you want to look into this further, I'd be glad to!




Jon
 
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AndrewK788

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Which comes first? Justification, or sanctification? Without the merits of Christ, our righteousness is as filthy rags.



I'm glad you at least acknowledge the work of perfection is up to the Holy Spirit, not us. What do you think of Revelation 22:11-12? If you want to look into this further, I'd be glad to!




Jon

I would say Revelation 22:11, 12, is referring to what SDAs usually call the "close of probation." It is the point when every man has made his final irrevocable decision regarding Christ, and these verses are simply reinforcing the premise that God has given humanity free will and will not interfere with the life he has chosen to live.

Now maybe I'm misunderstanding you, but I believe you said, or implied, you believe we will be perfected before Christ comes?

If that's right, then I disagree. We are justified because Christ died for us and says we are. We are sanctified by the Holy Spirit dwelling within us. So in that aspect, yes, we are perfect, but I believe that when Christ comes, we will be changed in another way.

I believe those humans who have chosen Christ will be changed to have the character of the original human, untainted by sin. In other words, humanity will be restored to its natural state of purity before the fall...that is once Christ returns, not before.
 
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Byfaithalone1

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I believe those humans who have chosen Christ will be changed to have the character of the original human, untainted by sin. In other words, humanity will be restored to its natural state of purity before the fall...that is once Christ returns, not before.

I'm just curious. Are you aware that Ellen G. White teaches that the character will not be changed in this manner at the second coming of Christ. Not sure that it matters, but I was curious if you were aware of her statements on this subject.

BFA
 
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Jon0388g

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I would say Revelation 22:11, 12, is referring to what SDAs usually call the "close of probation." It is the point when every man has made his final irrevocable decision regarding Christ, and these verses are simply reinforcing the premise that God has given humanity free will and will not interfere with the life he has chosen to live.


Agreed.


Now maybe I'm misunderstanding you, but I believe you said, or implied, you believe we will be perfected before Christ comes?


Nope, you got me!



If that's right, then I disagree. We are justified because Christ died for us and says we are. We are sanctified by the Holy Spirit dwelling within us. So in that aspect, yes, we are perfect, but I believe that when Christ comes, we will be changed in another way.


Where is the evidence from the Bible that our characters will be altered when Christ comes? Revelation 22:11-12 says that characters are forever fixed, and THEN Christ says He will "come quickly".



I believe those humans who have chosen Christ will be changed to have the character of the original human, untainted by sin. In other words, humanity will be restored to its natural state of purity before the fall...that is once Christ returns, not before.


Ok - if you've got the Scripture to back that up, then by all means. But I believe the Bible is crystal clear that the end time believers will be completely sanctified by the Holy Spirit, and this is a work and miracle of God, not by ourselves. I can give you many passages of Scripture which clearly illustrate this.



P.S. Please Andrew, be aware that our critics on this forum have only one purpose.....not to present Bible truth, but to mock and tear down our foundations. Only accept the testimony of the Bible.





Jon
 
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AndrewK788

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I'm just curious. Are you aware that Ellen G. White teaches that the character will not be changed in this manner at the second coming of Christ. Not sure that it matters, but I was curious if you were aware of her statements on this subject.

BFA

No I wasn't aware of that, but this wouldn't be the first time I've differed slightly with her on something. Does she believe we'll be changed later, or never? You've got me curious now.
 
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mva1985

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P.S. Please Andrew, be aware that our critics on this forum have only one purpose.....not to present Bible truth, but to mock and tear down our foundations. Only accept the testimony of the Bible.

Jon

Excellent advice for all of us.
 
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AndrewK788

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Hey Jon,
Okay, I think we're in agreement. I think I just misunderstood where you were coming from or maybe where I was coming from :p.

Okay, let me put down some statements then say whether you agree or not. I'm wanting to clear this up.

1) At the close of probation, the characters of men will be set in stone regarding whom they have chosen to serve.

2) This work is done 100% by the Holy Spirit and has nothing to do with the individual's own efforts, aside from simply allowing God to work in him.

If you answer yes, to those, then we're in agreement. But I do have a question:

In 1 Corinthians 15:52 it speaks of us being changed at the second coming. Do you believe this is ONLY referring to physical change and not character change? If so, is your only basis for this found in Revelation 22?

Also, do you believe there will still be an inborn urge to sin at that point or will this also be the demise of temptation for the believer? Will this perfection be the same perfection we'll know in say 500,000 years?

God bless,
Andrew
 
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Byfaithalone1

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No I wasn't aware of that, but this wouldn't be the first time I've differed slightly with her on something. Does she believe we'll be changed later, or never? You've got me curious now.

Here are a couple of excerpts. There are probably others. I've provided the citations so you can read them in their entirety if you're interested (both can be found on the Ellen G. White Estate website):
“If you would be a saint in heaven, you must first be a saint on earth. The traits of character you cherish in life will not be changed by death or by the resurrection. You will come up from the grave with the same disposition you manifested in your home and in society. Jesus does not change the character at His coming. The work of transformation must be done now. Our daily lives are determining our destiny. Defects of character must be repented of and overcome through the grace of Christ, and a symmetrical character must be formed while in this probationary state, that we may be fitted for the mansions above” (13MR82, 1891)

“It is a solemn thing to die, but a far more solemn thing to live. Every thought and word and deed of our lives will meet us again. What we make of ourselves in probationary time, that we must remain to all eternity. Death brings dissolution to the body, but makes no change in the character. The coming of Christ does not change our characters; it only fixes them forever beyond all change” (5T 466, 1885)
BFA
 
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Byfaithalone1

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Will Jesus continue to mediate on behalf of believers following the close of probation?
“Those who are living upon the earth when the intercession of Christ shall cease in the sanctuary above are to stand in the sight of a holy God without a mediator” (The Great Controversy, page 425).
Nope, you got me!

In your mind, does "perfected' mean "sinless?" If not, how can a man be perfect and yet continue to sin? If a man continues to sin following the close of probation, how will he stand in the sight of a holy God without a mediator?

Where is the evidence from the Bible that our characters will be altered when Christ comes?

Consider the following:
“Behold, we shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed. For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.” 1 Corinthians 15
The word for “corruptible” in the Greek is “phthartos” and, according to Strongs, it is correctly translated as “corruptible” which means:
“to change from good to bad in morals, manners or actions; to degrade with unsound principles or moral values. To subject a person to corruption. To alter from the original, pure and correct form. To become tainted or rotten. To become morally debased. To cause disintegration or ruin.”
Consider also the following:
“Jesus said to them, ‘I tell you the truth, at the renewal of all things, when the Son of Man sits on his glorious throne, you who have followed me will also sit on twelve thrones.’” Matt. 19:27-28

“Then I saw a new heaven and a new earth, for the first heaven and the first earth had passed away, and there was no longer any sea. I saw the Holy City, the new Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God, prepared as a bride beautifully dressed for her husband. And I heard a loud voice from the throne saying, "Now the dwelling of God is with men, and he will live with them. They will be his people, and God himself will be with them and be their God. He will wipe every tear from their eyes. There will be no more death or mourning or crying or pain, for the old order of things has passed away. He who was seated on the throne said, I am making everything new! Then he said, Write this down, for these words are trustworthy and true." Rev. 21:1-5
Revelation 22:11-12 says that characters are forever fixed, and THEN Christ says He will "come quickly".

The implication and context of Revelation 22 suggests that the characters are forever fixed WHEN Christ comes quickly:
"Then he showed me a river of the water of life, clear as crystal, coming from the throne of God and of the Lamb, in the middle of its street On either side of the river was the tree of life, bearing twelve kinds of fruit, yielding its fruit every month; and the leaves of the tree were for the healing of the nations. There will no longer be any curse; and the throne of God and of the Lamb will be in it, and His bond-servants will serve Him; they will see His face, and His name will be on their foreheads. And there will no longer be any night; and they will not have need of the light of a lamp nor the light of the sun, because the Lord God will illumine them; and they will reign forever and ever. And he said to me, "These words are faithful and true"; and the Lord, the God of the spirits of the prophets, sent His angel to show to His bond-servants the things which must soon take place. "And behold, I am coming quickly Blessed is he who heeds the words of the prophecy of this book."
Ok - if you've got the Scripture to back that up, then by all means.

What is meant by "the renewal of all things" and "the corruptible puts on incorruption." Both events occur simultaneously with Christ's second coming.

In fact, even the judgment happens simultaneously with Christ's second coming:
Matt. 25:31-36
"When the Son of Man comes in His glory, and all the holy angels with Him, then He will sit on the throne of His glory. All the nations will be gathered before Him, and He will separate them one from another, as a shepherd divides his sheep from the goats. And He will set the sheep on His right hand, but the goats on the left. Then the King will say to those on His right hand, "Come, you blessed of My Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world: for I was hungry and you gave Me food; I was thirsty and you gave Me drink; I was a stranger and you took Me in; I was naked and you clothed Me; I was sick and you visited Me; I was in prison and you came to Me.'”

Luke 19:22-23
“And he saith unto him, Out of thine own mouth will I judge thee, thou wicked servant. Thou knewest that I was an austere man, taking up that I laid not down, and reaping that I did not sow: Wherefore then gavest not thou my money into the bank, that at my coming I might have required mine own with usury?”

John 12:46-48
“I am come a light into the world, that whosoever believeth on me should not abide in darkness. And if any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world. He that rejecteth me, and receiveth not my words, hath one that judgeth him: the word that I have spoken, the same shall judge him IN THE LAST DAY.”

1 Corinthians 4:4-5
“For I know nothing by myself; yet am I not hereby justified: but he that judgeth me is the Lord. Therefore judge nothing before the time, until the Lord come, who both will bring to light the hidden things of darkness, and will make manifest the counsels of the hearts: and then shall every man have praise of God.”
Q: If we are not judged until Christ comes, why would our probation close prior to Christ coming?


But I believe the Bible is crystal clear that the end time believers will be completely sanctified by the Holy Spirit, and this is a work and miracle of God, not by ourselves.

No person sanctifies himself. All who are sanctified are sanctified by the spirit. This is not a future event. It is (1) an already completed event and (2) an ongoing process:
Acts 20:32
And now I commend you to God and to the word of His grace, which is able to build you up and to give you the inheritance among all those who are sanctified.

Acts 26
that they may receive forgiveness of sins and an inheritance among those who have been sanctified by faith in Me.'

Romans 15
But I have written very boldly to you on some points so as to remind you again, because of the grace that was given me from God, to be a minister of Christ Jesus to the Gentiles, ministering as a priest the gospel of God, so that my offering of the Gentiles may become acceptable, sanctified by the Holy Spirit.

1 Corinthians 1
To the church of God which is at Corinth, to those who have been sanctified in Christ Jesus, saints by calling, with all who in every place call on the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, their Lord and ours.

1 Corinthians 1:30
But by His doing you are in Christ Jesus, who became to us wisdom from God, and righteousness and sanctification, and redemption.

1 Corinthians 6:11
Such were some of you; but you were washed, but you were sanctified, but you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and in the Spirit of our God.

Hebrews 2:11
For both He who sanctifies and those who are sanctified are all from one Father; for which reason He is not ashamed to call them brethren.

Hebrews 10:10
By this will we have been sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all.
Please Andrew, be aware that our critics on this forum have only one purpose.....not to present Bible truth, but to mock and tear down our foundations. Only accept the testimony of the Bible.

If you disagree with anything that I have written, I would be happy to discuss the subject from the Scriptures. I am not here to mock you. Come let us reason together. If it's truth, than it was intended for both of us and I need it just as much as anyone.

BFA
 
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Jon0388g

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Hey Jon,
Okay, I think we're in agreement. I think I just misunderstood where you were coming from or maybe where I was coming from :p.


Lol, I don't think we are, but we'll see!


Okay, let me put down some statements then say whether you agree or not. I'm wanting to clear this up.

1) At the close of probation, the characters of men will be set in stone regarding whom they have chosen to serve.


Agreed.


2) This work is done 100% by the Holy Spirit and has nothing to do with the individual's own efforts, aside from simply allowing God to work in him.


Agreed.



If you answer yes, to those, then we're in agreement.



Are we? After the close of probation, do you believe the saints will still perform sin? I think this is where we differ.


But I do have a question:

In 1 Corinthians 15:52 it speaks of us being changed at the second coming. Do you believe this is ONLY referring to physical change and not character change? If so, is your only basis for this found in Revelation 22?


I believe that text is referring only to the physical, judging by the context:


"Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption. Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed. For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality." 1 Corinthians 15:50-52


Paul is speaking of our flesh and our blood - the corruptible (flesh) does not inherit the incorruptible kingdom. When Christ comes, and not before, our corruptible FLESH shall be changed, in the twinkling of an eye, when the mortal shall put on immortality.


Nowhere in that passage is a character change spoken of, it is misunderstood by many.


Revelation 22:11-12 is not my only basis for believing this. The Sanctuary teaches the complete transformation of the saints before Christ comes, pictured by the solid gold lampstand. Christ Himself taught in His parables of the end-time harvest. Revelation (repeatedly) describes the condition of the last day people...the sickle is not put in until the harvest is FULLY ripe.


The Biblical evidence is there I think.



Also, do you believe there will still be an inborn urge to sin at that point or will this also be the demise of temptation for the believer? Will this perfection be the same perfection we'll know in say 500,000 years?


"And he said unto me, Unto two thousand and three hundred days; then shall the sanctuary be cleansed." Daniel 8:14


While the books in heaven are purged of the record of our sin, the believers on earth are also being cleansed....agreed? The Day of Atonement was a time for the Israelites to afflict their souls in confession, and put away all sin, while the priest did the same for them in the sanctuary.


In our time, while the heavenly sanctuary is being cleansed, we too are being cleansed from our sin! Once this work of cleansing is finished, what more record of sin is there? None. Let him who is holy, be holy still!



Jon
 
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Jon0388g

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Will Jesus continue to mediate on behalf of believers following the close of probation?
“Those who are living upon the earth when the intercession of Christ shall cease in the sanctuary above are to stand in the sight of a holy God without a mediator” (The Great Controversy, page 425).
In your mind, does "perfected' mean "sinless?" If not, how can a man be perfect and yet continue to sin? If a man continues to sin following the close of probation, how will he stand in the sight of a holy God without a mediator?



Consider the following:
“Behold, we shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed. For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.” 1 Corinthians 15
The word for “corruptible” in the Greek is “phthartos” and, according to Strongs, it is correctly translated as “corruptible” which means:
“to change from good to bad in morals, manners or actions; to degrade with unsound principles or moral values. To subject a person to corruption. To alter from the original, pure and correct form. To become tainted or rotten. To become morally debased. To cause disintegration or ruin.”
Consider also the following:
“Jesus said to them, ‘I tell you the truth, at the renewal of all things, when the Son of Man sits on his glorious throne, you who have followed me will also sit on twelve thrones.’” Matt. 19:27-28

“Then I saw a new heaven and a new earth, for the first heaven and the first earth had passed away, and there was no longer any sea. I saw the Holy City, the new Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God, prepared as a bride beautifully dressed for her husband. And I heard a loud voice from the throne saying, "Now the dwelling of God is with men, and he will live with them. They will be his people, and God himself will be with them and be their God. He will wipe every tear from their eyes. There will be no more death or mourning or crying or pain, for the old order of things has passed away. He who was seated on the throne said, I am making everything new! Then he said, Write this down, for these words are trustworthy and true." Rev. 21:1-5
The implication and context of Revelation 22 suggests that the characters are forever fixed WHEN Christ comes quickly:
"Then he showed me a river of the water of life, clear as crystal, coming from the throne of God and of the Lamb, in the middle of its street On either side of the river was the tree of life, bearing twelve kinds of fruit, yielding its fruit every month; and the leaves of the tree were for the healing of the nations. There will no longer be any curse; and the throne of God and of the Lamb will be in it, and His bond-servants will serve Him; they will see His face, and His name will be on their foreheads. And there will no longer be any night; and they will not have need of the light of a lamp nor the light of the sun, because the Lord God will illumine them; and they will reign forever and ever. And he said to me, "These words are faithful and true"; and the Lord, the God of the spirits of the prophets, sent His angel to show to His bond-servants the things which must soon take place. "And behold, I am coming quickly Blessed is he who heeds the words of the prophecy of this book."
What is meant by "the renewal of all things" and "the corruptible puts on incorruption." Both events occur simultaneously with Christ's second coming.

In fact, even the judgment happens simultaneously with Christ's second coming:
"When the Son of Man comes in His glory, and all the holy angels with Him, then He will sit on the throne of His glory. All the nations will be gathered before Him, and He will separate them one from another, as a shepherd divides his sheep from the goats. And He will set the sheep on His right hand, but the goats on the left. Then the King will say to those on His right hand, "Come, you blessed of My Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world: for I was hungry and you gave Me food; I was thirsty and you gave Me drink; I was a stranger and you took Me in; I was naked and you clothed Me; I was sick and you visited Me; I was in prison and you came to Me.'” Matt. 25:31-36
“And he saith unto him, Out of thine own mouth will I judge thee, thou wicked servant. Thou knewest that I was an austere man, taking up that I laid not down, and reaping that I did not sow: Wherefore then gavest not thou my money into the bank, that at my coming I might have required mine own with usury?” Luke 19:22-23
“I am come a light into the world, that whosoever believeth on me should not abide in darkness. And if any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world. He that rejecteth me, and receiveth not my words, hath one that judgeth him: the word that I have spoken, the same shall judge him IN THE LAST DAY.” John 12:46-48
“For I know nothing by myself; yet am I not hereby justified: but he that judgeth me is the Lord. Therefore judge nothing before the time, until the Lord come, who both will bring to light the hidden things of darkness, and will make manifest the counsels of the hearts: and then shall every man have praise of God.” 1 Corinthians 4:4-5
Q: If we are not judged until Christ comes, why would our probation close prior to Christ coming?



No person sanctifies himself. All who are sanctified are sanctified by the spirit. This is not a future event. It is (1) an already completed event and (2) an ongoing process:
Acts 20:32
And now I commend you to God and to the word of His grace, which is able to build you up and to give you the inheritance among all those who are sanctified.

Acts 26
that they may receive forgiveness of sins and an inheritance among those who have been sanctified by faith in Me.'

Romans 15
But I have written very boldly to you on some points so as to remind you again, because of the grace that was given me from God, to be a minister of Christ Jesus to the Gentiles, ministering as a priest the gospel of God, so that my offering of the Gentiles may become acceptable, sanctified by the Holy Spirit.

1 Corinthians 1

To the church of God which is at Corinth, to those who have been sanctified in Christ Jesus, saints by calling, with all who in every place call on the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, their Lord and ours.

1 Corinthians 1:30
But by His doing you are in Christ Jesus, who became to us wisdom from God, and righteousness and sanctification, and redemption.

1 Corinthians 6:11
Such were some of you; but you were washed, but you were sanctified, but you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and in the Spirit of our God.

Hebrews 2:11
For both He who sanctifies and those who are sanctified are all from one Father; for which reason He is not ashamed to call them brethren.

Hebrews 10:10
By this will we have been sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all.
If you disagree with anything that I have written, I would be happy to discuss the subject from the Scriptures. I am not here to mock you. Come let us reason together. If it's truth, than it was intended for both of us and I need it just as much as anyone.

BFA



Thanks for your invitation, but - let's be honest - we are both settled in our interpretation of Scripture and it would be fruitless to engage in discussion.


I gave the Seventh-day Adventist position in answer to the OP.




Jon
 
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Byfaithalone1

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I believe that text is referring only to the physical, judging by the context:
"Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption. Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed. For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality." 1 Corinthians 15:50-52

The Greek word here is "phthartos.” It means "to change from good to bad in morals, manners or actions; to degrade with unsound principles or moral values; to subject a person to corruption; to alter from the original, pure and correct form; to become tainted or rotten; to become morally debased; to cause disintegration or ruin.” It is impossible to conclude that this is merely a physical event.

Further, we know for certain that "the renewal of all things" takes place at the second coming. Does "all things" mean "all things," or does it mean "all things excluding the characters of men?"


Nowhere in that passage is a character change spoken of, it is misunderstood by many.
Only when the Greek is not considered.


In our time, while the heavenly sanctuary is being cleansed, we too are being cleansed from our sin! Once this work of cleansing is finished, what more record of sin is there? None. Let him who is holy, be holy still!


Was Christ's atonement completed once for all on the cross?
"Now if perfection was through the Levitical priesthood (for on the basis of it the people received the Law), what further need was there for another priest to arise according to the order of Melchizedek, and not be designated according to the order of Aaron? For when the priesthood is changed, of necessity there takes place a change of law also. For the one concerning whom these things are spoken belongs to another tribe, from which no one has officiated at the altar. For it is evident that our Lord was descended from Judah, a tribe with reference to which Moses spoke nothing concerning priests. nd this is clearer still, if another priest arises according to the likeness of Melchizedek, who has become such not on the basis of a law of physical requirement, but according to the power of an indestructible life. For it is attested of Him,
"YOU ARE A PRIEST FOREVER
ACCORDING TO THE ORDER OF MELCHIZEDEK."

For, on the one hand, there is a setting aside of a former commandment because of its weakness and uselessness (for the Law made nothing perfect), and on the other hand there is a bringing in of a better hope, through which we draw near to God. And inasmuch as it was not without an oath (for they indeed became priests without an oath, but He with an oath through the One who said to Him,
"THE LORD HAS SWORN
AND WILL NOT CHANGE HIS MIND,
'YOU ARE A PRIEST FOREVER'"); so much the more also Jesus has become the guarantee of a better covenant. The former priests, on the one hand, existed in greater numbers because they were prevented by death from continuing, but Jesus, on the other hand, because He continues forever, holds His priesthood permanently. Therefore He is able also to save forever those who draw near to God through Him, since He always lives to make intercession for them. For it was fitting for us to have such a high priest, holy, innocent, undefiled, separated from sinners and exalted above the heavens; who does not need daily, like those high priests, to offer up sacrifices, first for His own sins and then for the sins of the people, because this He did once for all when He offered up Himself. For the Law appoints men as high priests who are weak, but the word of the oath, which came after the Law, appoints a Son, made perfect forever." Hebrews 7
BFA
 
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Thanks for your invitation, but - let's be honest - we are both settled in our interpretation of Scripture and it would be fruitless to engage in discussion.

Fruitless? Is the Spirit capable of doing what Christ promised He would do? It is the Scriptures that I would love to explore. If I'm wrong and I'm able to see my error, I will be the first to acknowledge it (my track record demonstrates that I am capable of doing so).

Further, you have implied that I have only one purpose--not to present Bible truth--but to mock and tear down. You have urged people to only accept the testimony of the Bible. When I ask for the opportunity to discuss the Scriptures, you decline.

I gave the Seventh-day Adventist position in answer to the OP.

OK. Now let's explore the Scriptures. We've read Revelation 22. What other Scriptures can you share with us that you believe support your belief that the character is not changed at the second coming of Christ and your belief that men must be without sin prior to the second coming of Christ?

BFA
 
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AndrewK788

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Are we? After the close of probation, do you believe the saints will still perform sin? I think this is where we differ.

Jon

Well, after my brief investigation this afternoon (and it was very brief) my answer would be no they will not sin after the close of probation. And yes, I agree with you as far as the context in 1 Cor 15 is concerned. I came to the same conclusion, I just wanted to hear your opinion.

God bless
 
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Jon0388g

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Well, after my brief investigation this afternoon (and it was very brief) my answer would be no they will not sin after the close of probation. And yes, I agree with you as far as the context in 1 Cor 15 is concerned. I came to the same conclusion, I just wanted to hear your opinion.

God bless


Great, we're now on the same page.


If you want to look into it further, I suggest this article called "Perfection in the Last Generation".



Jon
 
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Byfaithalone1

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Well, after my brief investigation this afternoon (and it was very brief) my answer would be no they will not sin after the close of probation. And yes, I agree with you as far as the context in 1 Cor 15 is concerned. I came to the same conclusion, I just wanted to hear your opinion.

God bless

You believe that man will be sinless while on earth? If this is true, should we conclude that:
(1) man's righteousness is better than filthy rags (see Isaiah 64)?
(2) the whole world is not a prisoner of sin (see Galatians 3)?
(3) there is more than One who is good (see Matthew 19)?
(4) there are some who are righteous (see Romans 3)?
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AndrewK788

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You believe that man will be sinless while on earth? If this is true, should we conclude that:
(1) man's righteousness is better than filthy rags (see Isaiah 64)?
(2) the whole world is not a prisoner of sin (see Galatians 3)?
(3) there is more than One who is good (see Matthew 19)?
(4) there are some who are righteous (see Romans 3)?
BFA

(1) No, man's righteousness is nothing. Man has no righteousness in himself. Whatever good thing comes out of him is coming directly from God by means of the Holy Spirit. 'Every good and perfect gift is from above.' (James 1:17)

(2) Indeed, the world outside of Christ is absolutely a prisoner of sin. But are we free in Christ or not? When someone gives his/her life over to the will of the Holy Spirit, to lead a life directed by God, then no he is no longer a prisoner to sin. (Romans 6)

(3) The only one who is good is Jesus Christ. As I said in response to #1, whatever good thing comes from a man is from God, not himself. So no there is only one who is good. But He is certainly capable of revealing himself through the lives of those who allow Him.

(4) Pretty much the same as #3. Only God is righteous. The only righteous human to ever walk the earth was Jesus Christ.

When you referenced me saying man being sinless on earth, you implied that this would be a result of something man has done. That was not my meaning. Yes, man will be without sin, but only because of the blood of Christ that covers him and has washed him clean of all impurities before God.

God bless,
Andrew
 
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SoldierOfTheKing

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AndrewK788 said:
I believe those humans who have chosen Christ will be changed to have the character of the original human, untainted by sin. In other words, humanity will be restored to its natural state of purity before the fall...that is once Christ returns, not before.

Not the nature of Adam and Eve before the fall, but the nature of God Himself.

"For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren." Rom 8:29

"Whereby are given unto us exceeding great and precious promises: that by these ye might be partakers of the divine nature, having escaped the corruption that is in the world through lust."
2 Peter 1:4

Can man, by his own effort, put on the divine nature? Can he make himself something that by nature, he simply isn't? Can the leopard change his spots? (Jer 13:23) When Paul in first Corinthians talks about the dead being raised incorruptible, is he not clearly talking about them being transformed in to the nature of God, who alone has immortality? (1 Tim 6:16)

Corruption is inherent the nature of everything subject to the physical laws of the universe, which is why "flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God". The change of character involves a fundamental change of nature.
 
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Byfaithalone1

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Indeed, the world outside of Christ is absolutely a prisoner of sin.

Note that the passage says nothing about "outside of Christ":
"But the Scripture imprisoned everything under sin, so that the promise by faith in Jesus Christ might be given to those who believe."
Everything is imprisoned under sin, whether it is inside or outside of Christ.

But are we free in Christ or not?

What are we free from?
"Now I say, as long as the heir is a child, he does not differ at all from a slave although he is owner of everything, but he is under guardians and managers until the date set by the father. So also we, while we were children, were held in bondage under the elemental things of the world. But when the fullness of the time came, God sent forth His Son, born of a woman, born under the Law, so that He might redeem those who were under the Law, that we might receive the adoption as sons. Because you are sons, God has sent forth the Spirit of His Son into our hearts, crying, "Abba! Father!" Therefore you are no longer a slave, but a son; and if a son, then an heir through God. However at that time, when you did not know God, you were slaves to those which by nature are no gods. But now that you have come to know God, or rather to be known by God, how is it that you turn back again to the weak and worthless elemental things, to which you desire to be enslaved all over again? You observe days and months and seasons and years. I fear for you, that perhaps I have labored over you in vain. beg of you, brethren, become as I am, for I also have become as you are. You have done me no wrong; but you know that it was because of a bodily illness that I preached the gospel to you the first time; and that which was a trial to you in my bodily condition you did not despise or loathe, but you received me as an angel of God, as Christ Jesus Himself. Where then is that sense of blessing you had? For I bear you witness that, if possible, you would have plucked out your eyes and given them to me. So have I become your enemy by telling you the truth? They eagerly seek you, not commendably, but they wish to shut you out so that you will seek them. But it is good always to be eagerly sought in a commendable manner, and not only when I am present with you. My children, with whom I am again in labor until Christ is formed in you--but I could wish to be present with you now and to change my tone, for I am perplexed about you. Tell me, you who want to be under law, do you not listen to the law? For it is written that Abraham had two sons, one by the bondwoman and one by the free woman. But the son by the bondwoman was born according to the flesh, and the son by the free woman through the promise. This is allegorically speaking, for these women are two covenants: one proceeding from Mount Sinai bearing children who are to be slaves; she is Hagar. Now this Hagar is Mount Sinai in Arabia and corresponds to the present Jerusalem, for she is in slavery with her children. But the Jerusalem above is free; she is our mother. For it is written,
"REJOICE, BARREN WOMAN WHO DOES NOT BEAR;
BREAK FORTH AND SHOUT, YOU WHO ARE NOT IN LABOR;
FOR MORE NUMEROUS ARE THE CHILDREN OF THE DESOLATE
THAN OF THE ONE WHO HAS A HUSBAND."
And you brethren, like Isaac, are children of promise. But as at that time he who was born according to the flesh persecuted him who was born according to the Spirit, so it is now also. But what does the Scripture say?
"CAST OUT THE BONDWOMAN AND HER SON,
FOR THE SON OF THE BONDWOMAN SHALL NOT BE AN HEIR WITH THE SON OF THE FREE WOMAN."
So then, brethren, we are not children of a bondwoman, but of the free woman. It was for freedom that Christ set us free; therefore keep standing firm and do not be subject again to a yoke of slavery."
When someone gives his/her life over to the will of the Holy Spirit, to lead a life directed by God, then no he is no longer a prisoner to sin. (Romans 6)

And here is the reason why:
"Do you not know, brethren (for I am speaking to those who know the law), that the law has jurisdiction over a person as long as he lives? For the married woman is bound by law to her husband while he is living; but if her husband dies, she is released from the law concerning the husband. So then, if while her husband is living she is joined to another man, she shall be called an adulteress; but if her husband dies, she is free from the law, so that she is not an adulteress though she is joined to another man. Therefore, my brethren, you also were made to die to the Law through the body of Christ, so that you might be joined to another, to Him who was raised from the dead, in order that we might bear fruit for God. For while we were in the flesh, the sinful passions, which were aroused by the Law, were at work in the members of our body to bear fruit for death. But now we have been released from the Law, having died to that by which we were bound, so that we serve in newness of the Spirit and not in oldness of the letter." Romans 7
The only one who is good is Jesus Christ.

But yet you claim that men will be sinless prior to the second coming. Do you see the contradiction? Once a man is sinless, he possesses his own righteousness. Although he may need salvation from past sins, his perfect behavior (regardless of the source) has merited salvation. Is that the basis of our salvation?

As I said in response to #1, whatever good thing comes from a man is from God, not himself.

Why should we conclude that God imputes sinlessness to men prior to the second coming?

So no there is only one who is good.

Actually, any man who is sinless could be classified as "good"--could he not?

Only God is righteous.

Regardless of the source, sinless persons possess their own righteousness--do they not?

The only righteous human to ever walk the earth was Jesus Christ.

Can you describe what exactly made him "righteous?"

When you referenced me saying man being sinless on earth, you implied that this would be a result of something man has done.

In my mind, the source is immaterial. A sinless person possesses his own righteousness, even if it was given to him as a gift. We are credited with Christ's righteousness, not our own.

Yes, man will be without sin, but only because of the blood of Christ that covers him and has washed him clean of all impurities before God.

That is not what is meant by "sinless." A person who is "covered" is not sinless. Rather, his sins are merely covered. A sinless person has no present sin to cover.

Q: Can you clarify what you mean by "sinless?"

BFA
 
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