AD66-70: The Day the Son of Man was revealed
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Evangelion
<b><font size="2">δυνατός</b></font>
But this does not specify the Father.
Besides, every Trinitarian I have spoken to has told me that Yahweh is also the name of the Son - and not just the Father.
Besides, every Trinitarian I have spoken to has told me that Yahweh is also the name of the Son - and not just the Father.
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I don't know why I'm wasting any time responding to this. No one has proposed what you are saying, and it doesn't make any sense anyway.
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Evangelion
<b><font size="2">δυνατός</b></font>
GW -
Neither do I.
Not yet. But I expect that he will.
It "makes sense" insofar as it is logical.
But the logic is weak (insofar as the conclusion does not necessarily follow from the premise) and the argument is therefore untenable.
Neither do I.
Not yet. But I expect that he will.
It "makes sense" insofar as it is logical.
But the logic is weak (insofar as the conclusion does not necessarily follow from the premise) and the argument is therefore untenable.
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What is logical? That these fulfilled passage visibly happened, and that Jesus did it???
Micah 1:1-4 (Young's Literal)
A word of Jehovah that hath been unto Micah the Morash-ite in the days of Jotham, Ahaz, Hezekiah, kings of Judah, that he hath seen concerning Samaria and Jerusalem: Hear, O peoples, all of them! Attend, O earth, and its fulness, And the Lord Jehovah is against you for a witness, The Lord from His holy temple. For lo, Jehovah is going out from His place, And He hath come down, And hath trodden on high places of earth. Melted have been the mountains under Him, And the valleys do rend themselves, As wax from the presence of fire, As waters cast down by a slope.
Isaiah 19:1-4 (YLT)
The burden of Egypt. Lo, Jehovah is riding on a swift thick cloud, And He hath entered Egypt, And moved have been the idols of Egypt at His presence, And the heart of Egypt melteth in its midst. And I armed Egyptians against Egyptians, And they fought, each against his brother, And each against his neighbour, City against city, kingdom against kingdom. And emptied out hath been in its midst the spirit of Egypt. And its counsel I swallow up, And they have sought unto the idols, And unto the charmers, And unto those having familiar spirits, And unto the wizards. And I have delivered the Egyptians Into the hand of a hard lord, And a strong king doth rule over them, An affirmation of the Lord, Jehovah of Hosts.
OS is claiming these things visibly took place. He believes the Father literally came down to Egypt riding on a cloud and set up a civil war and handed over the wicked Egyptians to a new king.
I don't have time to debate this, but you just seem to misunderstand what OS is asserting.
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Evangelion
<b><font size="2">δυνατός</b></font>
GW -
*snip*
The "Christophany" argument itself is logical. Ultimately insupportable, of course - but still logical.
I know.
I have not seen him claim that it was the Father Who did this.
I do indeed understand what he is asserting, and I disagree with it.
Pardon me for playing Devil's advocate.
*snip*
The "Christophany" argument itself is logical. Ultimately insupportable, of course - but still logical.
I know.
I have not seen him claim that it was the Father Who did this.
I do indeed understand what he is asserting, and I disagree with it.
Pardon me for playing Devil's advocate.
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You, Ev, have not produced any cohesive argument concerning the topic at hand.
I have no need to respond.
I have no need to respond.
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Hey, EV---I have often seen in your posts, and always wondered what does it mean:
*snip*
What's it mean? (I just figured you were fixin' green beans while you were typin'...)
*snip*
What's it mean? (I just figured you were fixin' green beans while you were typin'...)
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Evangelion
<b><font size="2">δυνατός</b></font>
It means that I'm truncating the original post. The *snip* is there to show that I've cut something out.
You may rest assured that I never excise anything that I believe to be relevant to the debate.
You may rest assured that I never excise anything that I believe to be relevant to the debate.
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OldShepherd
Zaqunraah
A vast overstatement, everyone does not agree Micah 1:2-4, was not fulfilled, in a physical-literal sense. While the language of Micah and Zechariah is somewhat similar it is not identical or nearly so. Micah 1 describes a natural phenomenon which has occurred many times, even in our lifetime. I recently saw this very thing, in Hawaii, on Discovery channel.
When a volcano erupts, does it not split open the earth, and the very earth itself melts as wax before the fire and runs down as water? They call it lava! Now that is what the word of God clearly says but GW says that God is wrong and he is right. GW can you present proof that God did not come down and tread upon the mountains? The only head knocking are those who approach the scriptures with an indoctrinated mind set and refuse to read scriptures in their natural, reasonable, sense. And, oh BTW, Micah 1 does not state or imply that God would be seen treading on the high places.
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Micah 1:2 Hear, all ye people; hearken, O earth, and all that therein is: and let the Lord GOD be witness against you, the Lord from his holy temple.
3 For, behold, the LORD cometh forth out of his place, and will come down, and tread upon the high places of the earth.
4 And the mountains shall be molten under him, and the valleys shall be cleft, as wax before the fire, and as the waters that are poured down a steep place.
Zech 14:3 Then shall the LORD go forth, and fight against those nations, as when he fought in the day of battle.
4 And his feet shall stand in that day upon the mount of Olives, which is before Jerusalem on the east, and the mount of Olives shall cleave in the midst thereof toward the east and toward the west, and there shall be a very great valley; and half of the mountain shall remove toward the north, and half of it toward the south.
If you go back through this thread you will see a lot of assertions and assumptions, from GW, and other preters, about, apocalyptic, Hebraic prophetic, genre, common symbols, phrases etc., etc., etc. but not one single piece of documentation from any Jewish source, whatsoever, to support these presumptions and presuppositions.
Oh, no, no, no, my friend, now that is a polar opposite. We interpret the scripture by the scripture, not secular, pagan history. I do not have to prove, the creation, the flood, destruction of Sodom and Gomorrah, or any other Biblical event or person, from anything except the Bible. According to pagan secular history, the exodus never happened, because there is no record of it in Egyptian history. For centuries, the secular world rejected the Bible because there was no external history of some of the peoples/nations mentioned in the Bible. Secular history says Moses, Abraham, Job, Jesus never existed, they are only legends and fairy tales. And for the umpteenth time I repeat nothing in the passage cited, states or implies that God visibly waged a war against Greece. You simply cannot and will not understand plain English.
The Bible, says God appeared at various times, e.g. Isa 19:1, the LORD rideth upon a swift cloud, and shall come into Egypt:. It is not incumbent on me to prove the Bible, but it is incumbent on non-Christians, who dispute the Bible, to produce evidence that the Bible is wrong. The clock is ticking.
Your assurances mean diddly squat. Were you there? Produce your evidence that the Bible is wrong and you are right.
I have no quandary! In addition to merely stating direct conflict, you must also show how it supposedly is a conflict. As I do, for example, re: the verses you quoted above.
In Ex 33:20 God, Himself, said, . . .no man can see Me and live. Since Ex 33:20 is God speaking then, according to the rule you yourself posted, the other passages, John 1:18, and 1 John 4:12, No one has seen God at any time, written centuries later, cannot be interpreted in such a way as to render it in direct conflict with what has been clearly taught elsewhere, i.e. by God, in Ex 33:20.
John did not say, No one has seen God at any time and live, but the passage must be understood to include that qualification, or contradict God, Himself. So who do I believe God or P70?
Not only do we have the Exodus passage but Jesus, Himself, in the N.T., said, at least three times, that the Father had been, and would continue to be, seen.
Joh 14:7 If ye had known me, ye should have known my Father also: and from henceforth ye know him, and have seen him.
Joh 14:9 Jesus saith unto him, Have I been so long time with you, and yet hast thou not known me, Philip? he that hath seen me hath seen the Father; and how sayest thou then, Shew us the Father?
Joh 15:24 If I had not done among them the works which none other man did, they had not had sin: but now have they both seen and hated both me and my Father.
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OldShepherd
Zaqunraah
That is absolutely false I have never said any such thing. I have repeatedly said that YHWH did not personally lead any armies. I have said just the opposite. I did not say that YHWH personally killed anyone with a sword, spear, arrow or any other weapon. You are the one that repeatedly misunderstands and misquotes what I say. In the future why don't you use the "quote" feature at the bottom right of each post and my exact words will be copied into your response. Perhaps then you will not be constantly misquoting me.
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Evangelion
<b><font size="2">δυνατός</b></font>
You see, OS, I have been supporting your argument in your absence.
Perhaps the Love Team Motto is rubbing off on me...
Perhaps the Love Team Motto is rubbing off on me...
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OldShepherd
Zaqunraah
Albeit putting words in my mouth, what you think I will respond.Originally posted by Evangelion
You see, OS, I have been supporting your argument in your absence.
Perhaps the Love Team Motto is rubbing off on me...
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OLD SHEPHERD:
A vast overstatement, everyone does not agree Micah 1:2-4, was not fulfilled, in a physical-literal sense. While the language of Micah and Zechariah is somewhat similar it is not identical or nearly so.
GW:
Please cite any commentary that offers an argument that Jehovah physically, literally came down to earth and walked on the mountains, causing the valleys to be split and the mountains to melt (Micah 1:2-4). Simply put, scholars understand this is figurative language, and so is the nearly identical language in Zechariah 14:3-5 where Jehovah is again described in this way.
Micah 1:2-4 says that Jehovah would exit the Temple and tread around on mountains, causing them to split and melt. Only those that believe Jehovah physically literally performed those things ascribed to him there have any ground to assert the near-identical language of Zechariah 14:3-5 mandates that Jehovah must physically, literally fulfill it. No one asserts Micah 1:2-4 was fulfilled in a physical, literal way. Neither can there then be any justification for claiming a literal fulfillment of the near-identical language of Zechariah 14:3-5.
OLD SHEPHERD
Micah 1 describes a natural phenomenon which has occurred many times, even in our lifetime. I recently saw this very thing, in Hawaii, on Discovery channel.
GW:
LOL. What did Jehovah look like, and why are you still alive? Your previous argument would require that you, seeing Jehovah walk upon the mountains of Hawaii and splitting the valleys, would not have lived to tell us about it.
OS:
When a volcano erupts, does it not split open the earth, and the very earth itself melts as wax before the fire and runs down as water? They call it lava! Now that is what the word of God clearly says but GW says that God is wrong and he is right.
GW:
That is what the word of God clearly says? Hardly. It clearly says Jehovah exited the temple and walked upon mountains, causing them to melt underneath his feet and causing valleys to split.
-------------------------------
Micah 1:2-4
And let the Lord Jehovah be witness against you, The Lord from his holy temple. For, behold, Jehovah comes forth out of his place, And has come down and tread on the high places of the earth. The mountains melt under him, And the valleys split apart, Like wax before the fire, Like waters that are poured down a steep place.
[compare to near-identical description of Jehovah in Zech 14:4]
-------------------------------
OS:
Concerning Zech 14 you claim to be presenting the Hebraic apocalyptic, prophetic genreetc. but you have not cited one single Jewish source.
GW:
Please first cite any Jewish or Christian source that believes Micah 1:2-4 was fulfilled in a physical literal sense and not in a figurative sense. Certainly, the near-identical descriptions of Jehovah's actions found in Micah 1:2-4 and Zech 14:4 cannot be interpreted in radically different ways: namely, one in a figurative sense and the other in a physical-literal sense.
OS:
Jews have interpreted Zechariah as an actual, literal, end time appearance of the Messiah, not allegorical, metaphorical, or figurative foreign armies. That is the Jewish understanding!
GW:
Such would be an understanding entirely inconsistent with the figurative interpretation of Micah 1:2-4 universally maintained by scholars. Both Micah 1:2-4 and Zech 14:4 use near-identical language to describe Jehovah's invisible doings. Scholars assert this for Micah 1:2-4, and so they should also for Zechariah if they hope to be credible expositors.
OS:
If you go back through this thread you will see a lot of assertions and assumptions, from GW, and other preters, about, apocalyptic, Hebraic prophetic, genre, common symbols, phrases etc., etc., etc. but not one single piece of documentation from any Jewish source, whatsoever, to support these presumptions and presuppositions.
GW:
Commentators that interpret Jehovah's doings in Micah 1:2-4 in a non-physical literal sense cannot credibly interpret Jehovah's nearly-identical doings in Zechariah 14:4 in a physical-literal sense.
OS SAID:
In Ex 33:20 God, Himself, said, . . .no man can see Me and live. Since Ex 33:20 is God speaking then, according to the rule you yourself posted, the other passages, John 1:18, and 1 John 4:12, No one has seen God at any time, written centuries later, cannot be interpreted in such a way as to render it in direct conflict with what has been clearly taught elsewhere, i.e. by God, in Ex 33:20.
GW:
Exodus 33:20 has no conflict with 1 John 4:12/John 1:18. Exodus 33:20 is a mere assertion that IF any man did see Jehovah, he would not physically be able to remain alive. It does NOT say God HAS ever been seen in such a way, and St. John affirms plainly that indeed NO MAN HAS SEEN GOD AT ANY TIME, which totally refutes your argument that MANY people have seen God. St. John says no man has seen God at any time. OS says says many men have seen God at many times. I'll go with St. John!
OS:
Not only do we have the Exodus passage but Jesus, Himself, in the N.T., said, at least three times, that the Father had been, and would continue to be, seen.
Joh 14:7 If ye had known me, ye should have known my Father also: and from henceforth ye know him, and have seen him.
Joh 14:9 Jesus saith unto him, Have I been so long time with you, and yet hast thou not known me, Philip? he that hath seen me hath seen the Father; and how sayest thou then, Shew us the Father?
Joh 15:24 If I had not done among them the works which none other man did, they had not had sin: but now have they both seen and hated both me and my Father.
GW:
LOL. Jesus is in no way here teaching that Jehovah was seen physically by those who saw Jesus with their optical sight, otherwise 1 John 4:12 is a patently false statement!!! "No man has seen God at any time" (1 John 4:12) is rendered a false statement by your reasoning here.
The apostles knew that Christ's incarnation was not Jehovah's physical self, but an IMAGE of the invisible Father (Col 1:15). Jews believe God is a spirit invisible to man's earthly eyes (Col 1:15; Jn 4:24)
A vast overstatement, everyone does not agree Micah 1:2-4, was not fulfilled, in a physical-literal sense. While the language of Micah and Zechariah is somewhat similar it is not identical or nearly so.
GW:
Please cite any commentary that offers an argument that Jehovah physically, literally came down to earth and walked on the mountains, causing the valleys to be split and the mountains to melt (Micah 1:2-4). Simply put, scholars understand this is figurative language, and so is the nearly identical language in Zechariah 14:3-5 where Jehovah is again described in this way.
Micah 1:2-4 says that Jehovah would exit the Temple and tread around on mountains, causing them to split and melt. Only those that believe Jehovah physically literally performed those things ascribed to him there have any ground to assert the near-identical language of Zechariah 14:3-5 mandates that Jehovah must physically, literally fulfill it. No one asserts Micah 1:2-4 was fulfilled in a physical, literal way. Neither can there then be any justification for claiming a literal fulfillment of the near-identical language of Zechariah 14:3-5.
OLD SHEPHERD
Micah 1 describes a natural phenomenon which has occurred many times, even in our lifetime. I recently saw this very thing, in Hawaii, on Discovery channel.
GW:
LOL. What did Jehovah look like, and why are you still alive? Your previous argument would require that you, seeing Jehovah walk upon the mountains of Hawaii and splitting the valleys, would not have lived to tell us about it.
OS:
When a volcano erupts, does it not split open the earth, and the very earth itself melts as wax before the fire and runs down as water? They call it lava! Now that is what the word of God clearly says but GW says that God is wrong and he is right.
GW:
That is what the word of God clearly says? Hardly. It clearly says Jehovah exited the temple and walked upon mountains, causing them to melt underneath his feet and causing valleys to split.
-------------------------------
Micah 1:2-4
And let the Lord Jehovah be witness against you, The Lord from his holy temple. For, behold, Jehovah comes forth out of his place, And has come down and tread on the high places of the earth. The mountains melt under him, And the valleys split apart, Like wax before the fire, Like waters that are poured down a steep place.
[compare to near-identical description of Jehovah in Zech 14:4]
-------------------------------
OS:
Concerning Zech 14 you claim to be presenting the Hebraic apocalyptic, prophetic genreetc. but you have not cited one single Jewish source.
GW:
Please first cite any Jewish or Christian source that believes Micah 1:2-4 was fulfilled in a physical literal sense and not in a figurative sense. Certainly, the near-identical descriptions of Jehovah's actions found in Micah 1:2-4 and Zech 14:4 cannot be interpreted in radically different ways: namely, one in a figurative sense and the other in a physical-literal sense.
OS:
Jews have interpreted Zechariah as an actual, literal, end time appearance of the Messiah, not allegorical, metaphorical, or figurative foreign armies. That is the Jewish understanding!
GW:
Such would be an understanding entirely inconsistent with the figurative interpretation of Micah 1:2-4 universally maintained by scholars. Both Micah 1:2-4 and Zech 14:4 use near-identical language to describe Jehovah's invisible doings. Scholars assert this for Micah 1:2-4, and so they should also for Zechariah if they hope to be credible expositors.
OS:
If you go back through this thread you will see a lot of assertions and assumptions, from GW, and other preters, about, apocalyptic, Hebraic prophetic, genre, common symbols, phrases etc., etc., etc. but not one single piece of documentation from any Jewish source, whatsoever, to support these presumptions and presuppositions.
GW:
Commentators that interpret Jehovah's doings in Micah 1:2-4 in a non-physical literal sense cannot credibly interpret Jehovah's nearly-identical doings in Zechariah 14:4 in a physical-literal sense.
OS SAID:
In Ex 33:20 God, Himself, said, . . .no man can see Me and live. Since Ex 33:20 is God speaking then, according to the rule you yourself posted, the other passages, John 1:18, and 1 John 4:12, No one has seen God at any time, written centuries later, cannot be interpreted in such a way as to render it in direct conflict with what has been clearly taught elsewhere, i.e. by God, in Ex 33:20.
GW:
Exodus 33:20 has no conflict with 1 John 4:12/John 1:18. Exodus 33:20 is a mere assertion that IF any man did see Jehovah, he would not physically be able to remain alive. It does NOT say God HAS ever been seen in such a way, and St. John affirms plainly that indeed NO MAN HAS SEEN GOD AT ANY TIME, which totally refutes your argument that MANY people have seen God. St. John says no man has seen God at any time. OS says says many men have seen God at many times. I'll go with St. John!
OS:
Not only do we have the Exodus passage but Jesus, Himself, in the N.T., said, at least three times, that the Father had been, and would continue to be, seen.
Joh 14:7 If ye had known me, ye should have known my Father also: and from henceforth ye know him, and have seen him.
Joh 14:9 Jesus saith unto him, Have I been so long time with you, and yet hast thou not known me, Philip? he that hath seen me hath seen the Father; and how sayest thou then, Shew us the Father?
Joh 15:24 If I had not done among them the works which none other man did, they had not had sin: but now have they both seen and hated both me and my Father.
GW:
LOL. Jesus is in no way here teaching that Jehovah was seen physically by those who saw Jesus with their optical sight, otherwise 1 John 4:12 is a patently false statement!!! "No man has seen God at any time" (1 John 4:12) is rendered a false statement by your reasoning here.
The apostles knew that Christ's incarnation was not Jehovah's physical self, but an IMAGE of the invisible Father (Col 1:15). Jews believe God is a spirit invisible to man's earthly eyes (Col 1:15; Jn 4:24)
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GW:
OS is claiming these things visibly took place. He believes the Father literally came down to Egypt riding on a cloud and set up a civil war and handed over the wicked Egyptians to a new king.
OS
That is absolutely false I have never said any such thing. I have repeatedly said that YHWH did not personally lead any armies.
GW:
You have asserted that Jehovah physically came into Egypt riding on a swift cloud (Isa 19:1), but it appears here that you are perhaps asserting that the deeds he did once he got to Egypt (as described in19:2-4) are somehow to be understood as not having taken place physically and literally by Jehovah. This is a transparent error on your part, for the verses of 19:1-4 all describe Jehovah's doings.
OS
I have said just the opposite. I did not say that YHWH personally killed anyone with a sword, spear, arrow or any other weapon.
GW:
The bible teaches Jehovah personally has killed many, many times with his arrows and sword and such:
Psalms 45:5
Your arrows are sharp. The nations fall under you, with arrows in the heart of the king's enemies.
Numbers 24:8
God brought him forth out of Egypt; He hath as it were the strength of the wild-ox: He shall eat up the nations, his adversaries, And shall break their bones in pieces and smite them through with his arrows.
Deuteronomy 32:23
I will heap evils on them; I will spend my arrows on them
Deuteronomy 32:39
I kill, and I make alive; I wound and I heal; neither is there any that can deliver out ofmy hand...If I whet my glittering sword...I will render vengeance to mine enemies...I wil make mine arrows drunk with blood, and my sword shall devour flesh, and that with the blood of the slain and of teh captives, from the long-haired heads of the enemy.
Psalms 64:7,9
But God will shoot at them. They will be suddenly struck down with an arrow...All mankind shall be afraid. They shall declare the work of God, And shall wisely ponder what he has done.
Zechariah 9:14
Yahweh shall be seen over them; and his arrow shall go forth as the lightning; and the Lord Yahweh will blow the trumpet, and will go with whirlwinds of the south.
Job 6:4
For the arrows of the Almighty are within me, My spirit drinks up their poison.
Psalms 38:2
For your arrows have pierced me, Your hand presses hard on me.
It is so obvious that this apocalyptic language is not to be understood in any physical-literal sense. Yet many today still insist on misunderstanding the voices of the Hebrew prophets and the way they used language to describe Jehovah's various apocalyptic battles against his enemies on the earth.
OS is claiming these things visibly took place. He believes the Father literally came down to Egypt riding on a cloud and set up a civil war and handed over the wicked Egyptians to a new king.
OS
That is absolutely false I have never said any such thing. I have repeatedly said that YHWH did not personally lead any armies.
GW:
You have asserted that Jehovah physically came into Egypt riding on a swift cloud (Isa 19:1), but it appears here that you are perhaps asserting that the deeds he did once he got to Egypt (as described in19:2-4) are somehow to be understood as not having taken place physically and literally by Jehovah. This is a transparent error on your part, for the verses of 19:1-4 all describe Jehovah's doings.
OS
I have said just the opposite. I did not say that YHWH personally killed anyone with a sword, spear, arrow or any other weapon.
GW:
The bible teaches Jehovah personally has killed many, many times with his arrows and sword and such:
Psalms 45:5
Your arrows are sharp. The nations fall under you, with arrows in the heart of the king's enemies.
Numbers 24:8
God brought him forth out of Egypt; He hath as it were the strength of the wild-ox: He shall eat up the nations, his adversaries, And shall break their bones in pieces and smite them through with his arrows.
Deuteronomy 32:23
I will heap evils on them; I will spend my arrows on them
Deuteronomy 32:39
I kill, and I make alive; I wound and I heal; neither is there any that can deliver out ofmy hand...If I whet my glittering sword...I will render vengeance to mine enemies...I wil make mine arrows drunk with blood, and my sword shall devour flesh, and that with the blood of the slain and of teh captives, from the long-haired heads of the enemy.
Psalms 64:7,9
But God will shoot at them. They will be suddenly struck down with an arrow...All mankind shall be afraid. They shall declare the work of God, And shall wisely ponder what he has done.
Zechariah 9:14
Yahweh shall be seen over them; and his arrow shall go forth as the lightning; and the Lord Yahweh will blow the trumpet, and will go with whirlwinds of the south.
Job 6:4
For the arrows of the Almighty are within me, My spirit drinks up their poison.
Psalms 38:2
For your arrows have pierced me, Your hand presses hard on me.
It is so obvious that this apocalyptic language is not to be understood in any physical-literal sense. Yet many today still insist on misunderstanding the voices of the Hebrew prophets and the way they used language to describe Jehovah's various apocalyptic battles against his enemies on the earth.
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For sure, it was understood by the Hebrew prophets that God's apocalyptic battles were carried out by human armies. Human forces and natural disasters were his very own arrows and swords and such in his OT comings:
Zechariah 9:13
For I have bent Judah for me, I have filled the bow with Ephraim; and I will stir up your sons, Zion, against your sons, Greece, and will make you as the sword of a mighty man.
Jeremiah 51:11
Make sharp the arrows; hold firm the shields: Yahweh has stirred up the spirit of the kings of the Medes; because his purpose is against Babylon, to destroy it: FOR IT IS THE VENGEANCE OF YAHWEH, THE VENGEANCE OF HIS TEMPLE.
Jeremiah 50:9,14,15
For, behold, I will stir up and cause to come up against Babylon a company of great nations from the north country; and they shall set themselves in array against her; from there she shall be taken: their arrows shall be as of an expert mighty man; none shall return in vain. Set yourselves in array against Babylon round about, all you who bend the bow; shoot at her, spare no arrows: for she has sinned against Yahweh. Shout against her round about...FOR IT IS THE VENGEANCE OF YAHWEH.
Ezekiel 5:7-9, 15-17
Therefore thus says the Lord Yahweh: Because you [Jerusalem] are turbulent more than the nations that are round about you, and have not walked in my statutes, neither have kept my ordinances, neither have done after the ordinances of the nations that are round about you; therefore thus says the Lord Yahweh: Behold, I, even I, am against you; and I will execute judgments in the midst of you in the sight of the nations. I will do in you that which I have not done, and whereunto I will not do any more the like, because of all your abominations.... So it shall be a reproach and a taunt, an instruction and an astonishment, to the nations that are round about you, when I shall execute judgments on you in anger and in wrath, and in wrathful rebukes; (I, Yahweh, have spoken it; ) when I shall send on them the evil arrows of famine, that are for destruction, which I will send to destroy you: and I will increase the famine on you, and will break your staff of bread; and I will send on you famine and evil animals, and they shall bereave you; and pestilence and blood shall pass through you; and I will bring the sword on you: I, Yahweh, have spoken it.
Notice here that in all these apocalypses, Jehovah says that HE is the one who is shooting his arrows and bringing his sword upon men and nations. Yet, it is plain to see that he means that this is actually carried out in and through human agencies and natural disasters which he ordains to be his sword, and bow, and arrows, and armies. This is the way the Hebrew prophets spoke of the apocalyptic days of the Lord's vengeance.
Zechariah 9:13
For I have bent Judah for me, I have filled the bow with Ephraim; and I will stir up your sons, Zion, against your sons, Greece, and will make you as the sword of a mighty man.
Jeremiah 51:11
Make sharp the arrows; hold firm the shields: Yahweh has stirred up the spirit of the kings of the Medes; because his purpose is against Babylon, to destroy it: FOR IT IS THE VENGEANCE OF YAHWEH, THE VENGEANCE OF HIS TEMPLE.
Jeremiah 50:9,14,15
For, behold, I will stir up and cause to come up against Babylon a company of great nations from the north country; and they shall set themselves in array against her; from there she shall be taken: their arrows shall be as of an expert mighty man; none shall return in vain. Set yourselves in array against Babylon round about, all you who bend the bow; shoot at her, spare no arrows: for she has sinned against Yahweh. Shout against her round about...FOR IT IS THE VENGEANCE OF YAHWEH.
Ezekiel 5:7-9, 15-17
Therefore thus says the Lord Yahweh: Because you [Jerusalem] are turbulent more than the nations that are round about you, and have not walked in my statutes, neither have kept my ordinances, neither have done after the ordinances of the nations that are round about you; therefore thus says the Lord Yahweh: Behold, I, even I, am against you; and I will execute judgments in the midst of you in the sight of the nations. I will do in you that which I have not done, and whereunto I will not do any more the like, because of all your abominations.... So it shall be a reproach and a taunt, an instruction and an astonishment, to the nations that are round about you, when I shall execute judgments on you in anger and in wrath, and in wrathful rebukes; (I, Yahweh, have spoken it; ) when I shall send on them the evil arrows of famine, that are for destruction, which I will send to destroy you: and I will increase the famine on you, and will break your staff of bread; and I will send on you famine and evil animals, and they shall bereave you; and pestilence and blood shall pass through you; and I will bring the sword on you: I, Yahweh, have spoken it.
Notice here that in all these apocalypses, Jehovah says that HE is the one who is shooting his arrows and bringing his sword upon men and nations. Yet, it is plain to see that he means that this is actually carried out in and through human agencies and natural disasters which he ordains to be his sword, and bow, and arrows, and armies. This is the way the Hebrew prophets spoke of the apocalyptic days of the Lord's vengeance.
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OldShepherd
Zaqunraah
I do not have to cite anything except the Bible. Have you ever heard the expression, "The Bible said it, I believe it, that settles it?" If you believe that a particular passage is NOT literal, then you must prove it. And oh BTW you are always talking about what "all scholars" have said, where have you posted anything from any recognized Bible scholar?
False! One again you are misquoting Micah. Micah says "the mountains shall be molten under him." Actually everything in creation is "under God." So your interpretation is certainly not the only one and you have presented nothing, but your own presuppositions, that this is the correct interpretation.
The rest of the verse, as I said earlier simply describes a well known natural phenomenon, a volcanic eruption with lava flowing down, and nothing, nothing, nothing in the verse states or implies that it was caused by God treading on the mountain, etc. and the valleys shall be cleft, as wax before the fire, and as the waters that are poured down a steep place.. When you say that this can only mean God caused the volcano by walking on the mountain, you are reading your presuppositions into the text.
And once again I remind you nothing in the verse states or implies that anyone will see God coming down, in Micah.
No one asserts Micah 1:2-4 was fulfilled in a physical, literal way. The Bible does! Now lets see your proof.
Micah 1:3 For, behold, the LORD cometh forth out of his place, and will come down, and tread upon the high places of the earth.
4 And the mountains shall be molten under him, and the valleys shall be cleft, as wax before the fire, and as the waters that are poured down a steep place.
Please take note, I have posted this at least twice and referred to it at least two other times, and you have totally ignored it. If you claim to represent the Jewish viewpoint then dont you think you should at least consult some Jewish sources and acknowledge them when they are posted?
John Gill, on Zech 14 The Jews say {m}, that
when the dead shall live, the Mount of Olives shall be cleaved asunder, and all the dead of Israel shall come out from under it; yea, even the righteous which die in captivity shall pass through a subterranean cavern, and come out from under the Mount of Olives.
{m} Targum in Cant. viii. 5.
Messianic Texts in the O.T.
Zech. XIV. 2 will be readily understood to have been applied to the wars of Messianic times, and this in many passages of the Midrashim, as, indeed, are verses 3, 4, 5, and 6.
Verse 7. The following interesting remark occurs in Yalkut on Ps. cxxxix. 16, 17 (vol. ii. p. 129 d) on the words 'none of them.' This world is to last 6,000 years; 2,000 years it was waste and desolate, 2,000 years mark the period under the Law, 2,000 years that under the Messiah. And because our sins are increased,they are prolonged. As they are prolonged, and as we make one year in seven a Sabbatic year, so will God in the latter days make one day a Sabbatic year, which day is 1,000 years - to which applies the verse in Zechariah just quoted. See also PirqîUe R. Eliez. c. 28.
Verse 8 is Messianically applied in Ber. R. 48. See our remarks on Gen. xviii 4, 5.
Verse 9 is, of course, applied to Messianic times, as in Yalkut i. p. 76 c, 266 a, and vol. ii. p. 33 c, Midr. on Cant. ii. 13, and in other passages.
The Life and Times of Jesus the Messiah, Albert Edersheim
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OldShepherd
Zaqunraah
Do you think that it will ever be possible for you to correctly quote me or any passage of scripture? Once again reading you own presuppositions into the text. Here is Gen 33:20 Please show us where it says it is a mere assertion that IF any man did see Jehovah, he would not physically be able to remain alive. This is God speaking.
Gen 33:20 And he said, Thou canst not see my face: for there shall no man see me, and live.
Zech 9:14 And the LORD shall be seen over them, and his arrow shall go forth as the lightning: and the Lord GOD shall blow the trumpet, and shall go with whirlwinds of the south.
15 The LORD of hosts shall defend them; and they shall devour, and subdue with sling stones; and they shall drink, and make a noise as through wine; and they shall be filled like bowls, and as the corners of the altar.
In Exodus 33:20, God says there shall no man see me, and live.. In Zechariah, the word of God says, the LORD shall be seen over them and The LORD of hosts shall defend them; and they shall devour, and subdue with sling stones. The rebellious people to whom God revealed Himself were destroyed by sling stones, according to scripture. They saw God, but they did not live, they died, according to scripture. The Scripture are very clear about that.
Now interpret John in accordance with the previously revealed word of God.
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Evangelion
<b><font size="2">δυνατός</b></font>
OS -
Very true. But did I put any words into your mouth that you would never have used yourself?
Well, let's see:
Very true. But did I put any words into your mouth that you would never have used yourself?
Well, let's see:
- I have referred GW to the Christophany argument, in response to his "No man has seen God at any time" proof text. I believe that this is how you would have responded. Was I right?
- I have repeatedly emphasised in my responses to GW, that you had not claimed that the Father was literally seen. Was I right?
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OS,
The weight of this truth I am expounding concerning the apocalyptic GENRE is beginning to render your rebuttals as obvious vain jangling.
The prophets clearly spoke of Jehovah's OT comings and battles in countless violent and apocalyptic metaphors as if He himself was physically and visibly present on our earth executing His Vengeance upon men as a great warrior. The prophets spoke this way about Jehovah even though they understood that Jehovah never physically runs his arrows through enemies and breaks their bones (Num 24:8), never physically comes and treads on mountains causing them to melt (Micah 1:2-4), never physically "devours the FLESH of his enemies with his own sword" (Deut 32:39), and never physically rides a cloud as his transit into Egypt to stir up a civil war (Isa 19:1-4). The Hebrews knew that Jehovah is invisible (Col 1:15) and that no man has seen Jehovah at any time (1 John 4:12).
You're just going to have to come to grips with this soon. Now, you said:
OS:
One again you are misquoting Micah [1:2-4]. Micah says "the mountains shall be molten under him." Actually everything in creation is "under God."
GW:
That's not contextually credible. The "mountains melt under him" is directly related to his physical treading upon them! Take a look:
Mic 1:2-4
...Jehovah comes forth out of his place, And has come down and tread on the high places of the earth. The mountains melt under him, And the valleys split apart
This is so clearly a physical description of Jehovah treading upon the highest mountains of the earth and the effects this has upon them. We see that the imagery is clearly one of Jehovah's treading upon the high places of the mountains, and having them melt under his tread and having the valleys split apart under his tread. You are going to have to face this. The Hebrews knew that Jehovah is invisible (Col 1:15) and that no man has seen Jehovah at any time (1 John 4:12).
OS
The rest of the verse, as I said earlier simply describes a well known natural phenomenon, a volcanic eruption with lava flowing down, and nothing, nothing, nothing in the verse states or implies that it was caused by God treading on the mountain, etc.
GW:
The rest of the verse is a simile: "Like wax before the fire, Like waters that are poured down. Your attempt to say this is a description of a volcano is only as strong as a simile. Even so, it is clear that it is via Jehovah's treading upon them that these things are happening.
And I'm going to continue to heap up verses upon you that show you that Jehovah is described as physical and visible by the prophets when they themselves understand these are metaphors for Jehovah's INVISIBLE and SPIRITUAL doings. Such as:
Numbers 24:8
God brought him forth out of Egypt; He hath as it were the strength of the wild-ox: He shall eat up the nations, his adversaries, And shall break their bones in pieces and smite them through with HIS arrows.
The Hebrews knew that Jehovah never visibly and physically did this. It was the Hebrews' conquest over their enemies that is being described. The Hebrews knew that Jehovah is invisible (Col 1:15) and that no man has seen Jehovah at any time (1 John 4:12). They had a religious worldview and explanation for their triumphs over their enemies, for God was instructing them to do his will--yet Jehovah himself was never actually seen physically and visibly.
The weight of this truth I am expounding concerning the apocalyptic GENRE is beginning to render your rebuttals as obvious vain jangling.
The prophets clearly spoke of Jehovah's OT comings and battles in countless violent and apocalyptic metaphors as if He himself was physically and visibly present on our earth executing His Vengeance upon men as a great warrior. The prophets spoke this way about Jehovah even though they understood that Jehovah never physically runs his arrows through enemies and breaks their bones (Num 24:8), never physically comes and treads on mountains causing them to melt (Micah 1:2-4), never physically "devours the FLESH of his enemies with his own sword" (Deut 32:39), and never physically rides a cloud as his transit into Egypt to stir up a civil war (Isa 19:1-4). The Hebrews knew that Jehovah is invisible (Col 1:15) and that no man has seen Jehovah at any time (1 John 4:12).
You're just going to have to come to grips with this soon. Now, you said:
OS:
One again you are misquoting Micah [1:2-4]. Micah says "the mountains shall be molten under him." Actually everything in creation is "under God."
GW:
That's not contextually credible. The "mountains melt under him" is directly related to his physical treading upon them! Take a look:
Mic 1:2-4
...Jehovah comes forth out of his place, And has come down and tread on the high places of the earth. The mountains melt under him, And the valleys split apart
This is so clearly a physical description of Jehovah treading upon the highest mountains of the earth and the effects this has upon them. We see that the imagery is clearly one of Jehovah's treading upon the high places of the mountains, and having them melt under his tread and having the valleys split apart under his tread. You are going to have to face this. The Hebrews knew that Jehovah is invisible (Col 1:15) and that no man has seen Jehovah at any time (1 John 4:12).
OS
The rest of the verse, as I said earlier simply describes a well known natural phenomenon, a volcanic eruption with lava flowing down, and nothing, nothing, nothing in the verse states or implies that it was caused by God treading on the mountain, etc.
GW:
The rest of the verse is a simile: "Like wax before the fire, Like waters that are poured down. Your attempt to say this is a description of a volcano is only as strong as a simile. Even so, it is clear that it is via Jehovah's treading upon them that these things are happening.
And I'm going to continue to heap up verses upon you that show you that Jehovah is described as physical and visible by the prophets when they themselves understand these are metaphors for Jehovah's INVISIBLE and SPIRITUAL doings. Such as:
Numbers 24:8
God brought him forth out of Egypt; He hath as it were the strength of the wild-ox: He shall eat up the nations, his adversaries, And shall break their bones in pieces and smite them through with HIS arrows.
The Hebrews knew that Jehovah never visibly and physically did this. It was the Hebrews' conquest over their enemies that is being described. The Hebrews knew that Jehovah is invisible (Col 1:15) and that no man has seen Jehovah at any time (1 John 4:12). They had a religious worldview and explanation for their triumphs over their enemies, for God was instructing them to do his will--yet Jehovah himself was never actually seen physically and visibly.
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