HisdaughterJen
Well-Known Member
Use scriptures to define "tribulation" Nana. Biblically, it is not the reign of the beast.
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Another great disappointment
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Big Mouth Nana
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Jen, Jen, Jen. We have already done this before..recall? You believe that we are already in the tribulation since Christ ascended. Talking to you is like talking to dead air space...with some, that space is*between their ears*. Where would you expect the beast to rise up, during the millinial reign of Christ? The reason that it is called the Great Tribulation is people will be getting the mark, not being able to buy or sell without it, people dying, and martyred. The Jews accepting a false Messiah..the Antichrist.
If you can't understand Matt 24, then I really don't know what to tell you.
Matt 24:15 ~ When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation (Antichrist), spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand: A few verses later......
Matt 24:21 ~ For then shall be Great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.
I really want you to see this, but you won't until you let go of all of your own pre-conceived false beliefs. Geesh, you need a Holy Ghost deprogramming!!
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gracechick
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Our minds are so polluted sometimes I think we seem to overanalyze everything. I believe that scripture is merely saying he doesn't desire flesh, but power and control. The antichrist's agenda is much bigger then fleshly pursuits.
And there simply are some people that are born naturally with less of a drive then most.
And there simply are some people that are born naturally with less of a drive then most.
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Yeah, Nana, but my understanding was this rapture didn't actually involve Jesus coming to earth. So both sides could be correct.
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HisdaughterJen
Well-Known Member
Nana, Nana, Nana....
Matt 24 is talking about 70 AD. There is no mention of the anti-christ in Matt 24.
Mat 23:36I tell you the truth, all this will come upon this generation.
Matt23:37
"O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, you who kill the prophets and stone those sent to you, how often I have longed to gather your children together, as a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, but you were not willing.
Mat 23:38Look, your house is left to you desolate.
The "tribulation" is the wars, famines, plagues, pestilences, persecution, and martyrdom that have gone on since Christ ascended and sent them.
They came upon Jerusalem, Israel first and went into the whole world.
Those days were cut short in 1945 for Israel or else no one would have survived.
Israel was given their homeland back in 1948. We are currently in the final 70 year generation from either the shortening of the days or the rebirth of Israel.
The judgment and wrath on the Day of the Lord/Wrath is when the anti-christ will reign AFTER the nearly 2000 year tribulation that Israel and the world have endured. The anti-christ will not be given power until the devil and his angels are cast down to the earth.
Mat 24:29"Immediately after the distress of those days " 'the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light; the stars will fall from the sky, and the heavenly bodies will be shaken.
Rev 6:12I watched as he opened the sixth seal. There was a great earthquake. The sun turned black like sackcloth made of goat hair, the whole moon turned blood red,
Rev 6:13and the stars in the sky fell to earth, as late figs drop from a fig tree when shaken by a strong wind.
Rev 9:1The fifth angel sounded his trumpet, and I saw a star that had fallen from the sky to the earth. The star was given the key to the shaft of the Abyss.
Re
v 12:4
His tail swept a third of the stars out of the sky and flung them to the earth.
Rev 12:9The great dragon was hurled down-that ancient serpent called the devil, or Satan, who leads the whole world astray. He was hurled to the earth, and his angels with him.
Rev 12:12Therefore rejoice, you heavens and you who dwell in them! But woe to the earth and the sea, because the devil has gone down to you! He is filled with fury, because he knows that his time is short."
Rev 12:13When the dragon saw that he had been hurled to the earth, he pursued the woman who had given birth to the male child.
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its possible that the false doctrine of the rapture being revealed will play a role in opening ppl's eyes to the fact that they have been following man made ideas instead of what the bible is actually saying
it will be great incentive for a reformation
it will be great incentive for a reformation
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Big Mouth Nana
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He doesn't come to the earth. Christ is coming in the clouds one time only for the church "immediately after the tribulation" in Matt 24:29-31. We meet Him in the air, then we the army of the Lord come back down and Jesus touches down on the Mount of Olives...Zech 14:4 ~ And his feet shall stand in that day upon the Mount of Olives, which is before Jerusalem on the east, and the Mount of Olives shall cleave in the midst thereof toward the east and toward the west, and there shall be a very great valley; and half of the mountain shall remove toward the north, and half of it toward the south. 5) And ye shall flee to the valley of the mountains; for the valley of the mountains shall reach unto Azal: yea, ye shall flee, like as ye fled from before the earthquake in the days of Uzziah king of Judah: and the LORD my God shall come, and all the saints with thee.
This is what the remnant flee to during the tribulation right after the abomination of desolation in Mat 24:16 ~ Then let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains:
Jesus splits it and a valley is formed that they go through at His return.
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Charis kai Dunamis
χάρις καὶ δύναμις
Give me one, JUST ONE mention in the scriptures where the church is going through the tribulation.
If you cant give me one, then what is your belief based on?
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Bible2
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Revelation 3:10 was addressing one faithful first-
century local church congregation in the Roman
province of "Asia" (Revelation 1:11) regarding a
first-century persecution which came upon all the
Roman world, and in which another faithful first-
century local church congregation in the Roman
province of "Asia" had to suffer and die (Revelation
2:10).
---
The church will go through the coming tribulation
of Revelation chapters 6-18 (Revelation 13:7-10,
14:12-13, 20:4, Matthew 24:9-13). Jesus won't come
to gather together (rapture) the church until after
the tribulation is over (Matthew 24:29-31). That's
why the marriage of the church doesn't happen until
Revelation 19:7, after the entire tribulation of
Revelation chapters 6-18 is over.
2 Thessalonians 2:1-4 makes clear that Jesus won't
come to gather together the church until sometime
after the Antichrist commits the abomination of
desolation. When Jesus comes to gather together the
church he'll destroy the Antichrist (2 Thessalonians
2:1,8, Revelation 19:7,20). Before Jesus comes, the
church will have to go through the reign of the
Antichrist (Revelation 13:7-10, 14:12-13, 20:4,
Matthew 24:9-13).
---
The giving of white robes to the souls of the dead
martyrs of the church in heaven in Revelation 6:9-11
isn't them being raptured, just as those in the church
in white robes in heaven in Revelation 7:9 won't be
raptured, but will be those in the church who will
enter into the tribulation and then die during its
first stage (Revelation 6). Their death will take
them out of the tribulation (Revelation 7:14) and
into heaven (Revelation 7:15), just as whenever those
in the church die they go into heaven (Philippians
1:21,23, 2 Corinthians 5:8).
---
The symbolic "man child" caught up to the throne
of God mid-trib, right before the 1,260-day reign of
the Antichrist (Revelation 12:5-6), represents the
144,000 male-virgins part of the church subsequently
seen before the throne of God (Revelation 14:4-5).
---
The woman in Revelation 12:1 is the church, seen
clothed with the sun of righteousness (Malachi 4:2),
just as later she's seen clothed with righteousness
(Revelation 19:8), which only comes through faith in
Jesus (Romans 3:22).
The woman in Revelation 12:6 is that part of the
church which will flee into the wilderness during the
1,260-day reign of the Antichrist.
The remnant of her seed in Revelation 12:17 is that
part of the church which will remain in the cities
and suffer the wrath of Satan and the Antichrist
(Revelation 13:7-10, 14:12-13, 20:4).
---
Those in Revelation 12:17, 13:7-10, 14:12-13, 20:4,
Matthew 24:9-13 have to be part of the church, the
bride, because they have faith in Jesus. Everyone who
has faith in Jesus is part of his body (Ephesians
4:4-5), which is his bride, the church (Ephesians
5:30-32).
---
Isaiah 26:20 will happen before Isaiah 26:19, just
as, for example, Mark 6:17 happened before Mark 6:16.
Isaiah 26:20 is referring to those in the church who
will still be alive on the earth before the vials of
God's wrath (Revelation 16), still waiting for Jesus'
coming as a thief (Revelation 16:15). Before the vials
of God's wrath begin, they'll go into protective
chambers which they'll have built for themselves on
the earth (Isaiah 26:20).
Isaiah 26:19 is referring to the resurrection of the
church at the second coming (1 Corinthians 15:22-23,
1 Thessalonians 4:15-16, Revelation 20:4-6), which
won't happen until after the tribulation (Matthew
24:29-31, Revelation 19:7-21), which tribulation
includes the vials of God's wrath (Revelation 16).
---
Psalms 75:2 refers to Jesus' judgment of the church
(2 Corinthians 5:10-11, Romans 14:10-12, Luke
12:47-48) at the second coming (Psalms 50:3-5, cf.
Mark 13:27), which won't happen until after the
tribulation (Mark 13:24-27, Revelation 19:7-21),
---
While the Antichrist could be a homosexual, that's
not what Daniel 11:37 means. It means that the
Antichrist won't regard the god desired of women
(cf. Ezekiel 8:14).
---
While homosexuality isn't considered so deviant
anymore in Western countries, it's still considered
very deviant and shameful in Muslim countries.
The Antichrist could be an Arab from Tyre, Lebanon
(Ezekiel 28:2, cf. 2 Thessalonians 2:4). If he is,
and if he's a homosexual, he'll have to keep it a
secret in order to be able to take over the Middle
East, for the Muslim Middle East would never follow
a leader known to be a homosexual.
---
The coming tribulation does include the reign of the
Antichrist because the coming tribulation includes
the abomination of desolation spoken of by Daniel the
prophet (Matthew 24:15), which is when the Antichrist
will attack a rebuilt temple in Jerusalem, stop the
sacrifices performed in front of it, and sit in the
temple and proclaim himself God (Daniel 11:31,36,
2 Thessalonians 2:4). This act could begin his
42-month Luciferian reign of terror over the earth
(Revelation 13:4-18).
Matthew 24:15, Daniel 11:31,36, 2 Thessalonians 2:4
didn't happen in 70 AD. It's never happened.
---
Matthew 23:36 didn't mean that Matthew 24:15, Daniel
11:31,36, 2 Thessalonians 2:4 had to happen in 70 AD,
just as Matthew 23:36 didn't mean that Matthew
24:29-31 had to happen in 70 AD.
---
Matthew 23:38 meant that Jerusalem would be left
desolate of Jesus' presence until his second coming
(Matthew 23:39).
---
The tribulation of Revelation chapters 6-18 hasn't
started yet. It will start with a terrible war which,
with its aftermath of famines and epidemics, will end
up killing one-fourth of the world (Revelation 6:4-8).
The "great sword" of this war (Revelation 6:4b) could
be Israel's nuclear weapons.
---
The judgment and wrath on the day of the Lord/wrath is
when Jesus returns after the tribulation (Revelation
19:11-21, 1 Corinthians 1:7-8).
---
The temporary darkening of both the sun and the moon
after the tribulation (Matthew 24:29) isn't the same
event as the temporary darkening of the sun and the
reddening of the moon during the first stage of the
tribulation (Revelation 6:12).
century local church congregation in the Roman
province of "Asia" (Revelation 1:11) regarding a
first-century persecution which came upon all the
Roman world, and in which another faithful first-
century local church congregation in the Roman
province of "Asia" had to suffer and die (Revelation
2:10).
---
The church will go through the coming tribulation
of Revelation chapters 6-18 (Revelation 13:7-10,
14:12-13, 20:4, Matthew 24:9-13). Jesus won't come
to gather together (rapture) the church until after
the tribulation is over (Matthew 24:29-31). That's
why the marriage of the church doesn't happen until
Revelation 19:7, after the entire tribulation of
Revelation chapters 6-18 is over.
2 Thessalonians 2:1-4 makes clear that Jesus won't
come to gather together the church until sometime
after the Antichrist commits the abomination of
desolation. When Jesus comes to gather together the
church he'll destroy the Antichrist (2 Thessalonians
2:1,8, Revelation 19:7,20). Before Jesus comes, the
church will have to go through the reign of the
Antichrist (Revelation 13:7-10, 14:12-13, 20:4,
Matthew 24:9-13).
---
The giving of white robes to the souls of the dead
martyrs of the church in heaven in Revelation 6:9-11
isn't them being raptured, just as those in the church
in white robes in heaven in Revelation 7:9 won't be
raptured, but will be those in the church who will
enter into the tribulation and then die during its
first stage (Revelation 6). Their death will take
them out of the tribulation (Revelation 7:14) and
into heaven (Revelation 7:15), just as whenever those
in the church die they go into heaven (Philippians
1:21,23, 2 Corinthians 5:8).
---
The symbolic "man child" caught up to the throne
of God mid-trib, right before the 1,260-day reign of
the Antichrist (Revelation 12:5-6), represents the
144,000 male-virgins part of the church subsequently
seen before the throne of God (Revelation 14:4-5).
---
The woman in Revelation 12:1 is the church, seen
clothed with the sun of righteousness (Malachi 4:2),
just as later she's seen clothed with righteousness
(Revelation 19:8), which only comes through faith in
Jesus (Romans 3:22).
The woman in Revelation 12:6 is that part of the
church which will flee into the wilderness during the
1,260-day reign of the Antichrist.
The remnant of her seed in Revelation 12:17 is that
part of the church which will remain in the cities
and suffer the wrath of Satan and the Antichrist
(Revelation 13:7-10, 14:12-13, 20:4).
---
Those in Revelation 12:17, 13:7-10, 14:12-13, 20:4,
Matthew 24:9-13 have to be part of the church, the
bride, because they have faith in Jesus. Everyone who
has faith in Jesus is part of his body (Ephesians
4:4-5), which is his bride, the church (Ephesians
5:30-32).
---
Isaiah 26:20 will happen before Isaiah 26:19, just
as, for example, Mark 6:17 happened before Mark 6:16.
Isaiah 26:20 is referring to those in the church who
will still be alive on the earth before the vials of
God's wrath (Revelation 16), still waiting for Jesus'
coming as a thief (Revelation 16:15). Before the vials
of God's wrath begin, they'll go into protective
chambers which they'll have built for themselves on
the earth (Isaiah 26:20).
Isaiah 26:19 is referring to the resurrection of the
church at the second coming (1 Corinthians 15:22-23,
1 Thessalonians 4:15-16, Revelation 20:4-6), which
won't happen until after the tribulation (Matthew
24:29-31, Revelation 19:7-21), which tribulation
includes the vials of God's wrath (Revelation 16).
---
Psalms 75:2 refers to Jesus' judgment of the church
(2 Corinthians 5:10-11, Romans 14:10-12, Luke
12:47-48) at the second coming (Psalms 50:3-5, cf.
Mark 13:27), which won't happen until after the
tribulation (Mark 13:24-27, Revelation 19:7-21),
---
While the Antichrist could be a homosexual, that's
not what Daniel 11:37 means. It means that the
Antichrist won't regard the god desired of women
(cf. Ezekiel 8:14).
---
While homosexuality isn't considered so deviant
anymore in Western countries, it's still considered
very deviant and shameful in Muslim countries.
The Antichrist could be an Arab from Tyre, Lebanon
(Ezekiel 28:2, cf. 2 Thessalonians 2:4). If he is,
and if he's a homosexual, he'll have to keep it a
secret in order to be able to take over the Middle
East, for the Muslim Middle East would never follow
a leader known to be a homosexual.
---
The coming tribulation does include the reign of the
Antichrist because the coming tribulation includes
the abomination of desolation spoken of by Daniel the
prophet (Matthew 24:15), which is when the Antichrist
will attack a rebuilt temple in Jerusalem, stop the
sacrifices performed in front of it, and sit in the
temple and proclaim himself God (Daniel 11:31,36,
2 Thessalonians 2:4). This act could begin his
42-month Luciferian reign of terror over the earth
(Revelation 13:4-18).
Matthew 24:15, Daniel 11:31,36, 2 Thessalonians 2:4
didn't happen in 70 AD. It's never happened.
---
Matthew 23:36 didn't mean that Matthew 24:15, Daniel
11:31,36, 2 Thessalonians 2:4 had to happen in 70 AD,
just as Matthew 23:36 didn't mean that Matthew
24:29-31 had to happen in 70 AD.
---
Matthew 23:38 meant that Jerusalem would be left
desolate of Jesus' presence until his second coming
(Matthew 23:39).
---
The tribulation of Revelation chapters 6-18 hasn't
started yet. It will start with a terrible war which,
with its aftermath of famines and epidemics, will end
up killing one-fourth of the world (Revelation 6:4-8).
The "great sword" of this war (Revelation 6:4b) could
be Israel's nuclear weapons.
---
The judgment and wrath on the day of the Lord/wrath is
when Jesus returns after the tribulation (Revelation
19:11-21, 1 Corinthians 1:7-8).
---
The temporary darkening of both the sun and the moon
after the tribulation (Matthew 24:29) isn't the same
event as the temporary darkening of the sun and the
reddening of the moon during the first stage of the
tribulation (Revelation 6:12).
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0
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Charis kai Dunamis
χάρις καὶ δύναμις
ALL INFERENCES. Not one text that shows the Church clearly being present during the trib. You must use presuppositional interpretation to support your claim.
Just give me ONE verse. ONE VERSE that specifically indicates the Church as being there during the trib. I guarantee that you will not be able to produce one, as you have proven thus far.
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- Apr 14, 2003
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JesusFreak5000,
I believe that Bible2 has already given the answer you asked for, if you were open to receiving it.
Nevertheless, consider this passage.
"When he opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of those who had been slain because of the word of God and the testimony they had maintained. They called out in a loud voice, 'How long, Sovereign Lord, holy and true, until you judge the inhabitants of the earth and avenge our blood?' Then each of them was given a white robe, and they were told to wait a little longer, until the number of their fellow servants and brothers who were to be killed as they had been was completed."
--Revelation6:9-11
This passage tells of a scene in heaven during the Tribulation during the last days. The martyrs under the altar are Christians killed for their testimony during the persecution of the last days. What else could "avenge our blood" mean?
*
*
I believe that Bible2 has already given the answer you asked for, if you were open to receiving it.
Nevertheless, consider this passage.
"When he opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of those who had been slain because of the word of God and the testimony they had maintained. They called out in a loud voice, 'How long, Sovereign Lord, holy and true, until you judge the inhabitants of the earth and avenge our blood?' Then each of them was given a white robe, and they were told to wait a little longer, until the number of their fellow servants and brothers who were to be killed as they had been was completed."
--Revelation6:9-11
This passage tells of a scene in heaven during the Tribulation during the last days. The martyrs under the altar are Christians killed for their testimony during the persecution of the last days. What else could "avenge our blood" mean?
*
*
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- Apr 14, 2003
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Big Mouth Nana in post #22:
"The reason that it is called the Great Tribulation is people will be getting the mark, not being able to buy or sell without it, people dying, and martyred. The Jews accepting a false Messiah..the Antichrist. "
Where does the Bible say anything about the Jews being the ones who accept the Antichrist, or even the first to do so?
*
*
"The reason that it is called the Great Tribulation is people will be getting the mark, not being able to buy or sell without it, people dying, and martyred. The Jews accepting a false Messiah..the Antichrist. "
Where does the Bible say anything about the Jews being the ones who accept the Antichrist, or even the first to do so?
*
*
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B
Bible2
Guest
The scriptures show believers clearly being present during the
tribulation (Matthew 24:9-13, Revelation 13:7-10, 14:12-13, 20:4),
and there are no believers outside of the church (Ephesians 4:4-5).
No scripture ever teaches a pre-tribulation rapture, because the
rapture will happen after the tribulation (Matthew 24:29-31). Jesus
can't come and gather together the church until sometime after
there's an apostasy and the Antichrist sits in a rebuilt temple in
Jerusalem and proclaims himself God (2 Thessalonians 2:1-4), for
when Jesus comes to gather together and marry the church he'll
destroy the Antichrist (2 Thessalonians 2:1,8, Revelation 19:7,20).
---
A more robust land tax and even a nominal wealth tax could replace
all income taxes, payroll taxes, and consumption taxes.
But the plutocracy owns the government, and the plutocracy would
never stand for a more robust land tax or even a nominal wealth tax.
tribulation (Matthew 24:9-13, Revelation 13:7-10, 14:12-13, 20:4),
and there are no believers outside of the church (Ephesians 4:4-5).
No scripture ever teaches a pre-tribulation rapture, because the
rapture will happen after the tribulation (Matthew 24:29-31). Jesus
can't come and gather together the church until sometime after
there's an apostasy and the Antichrist sits in a rebuilt temple in
Jerusalem and proclaims himself God (2 Thessalonians 2:1-4), for
when Jesus comes to gather together and marry the church he'll
destroy the Antichrist (2 Thessalonians 2:1,8, Revelation 19:7,20).
---
A more robust land tax and even a nominal wealth tax could replace
all income taxes, payroll taxes, and consumption taxes.
But the plutocracy owns the government, and the plutocracy would
never stand for a more robust land tax or even a nominal wealth tax.
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- May 15, 2005
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Commentators in the 1800's considered "the desire of women" to be the true Messiah, so not regarding the desire of women meant having no regard to God's Messiah.
It is true that at that time homosexuality, although it existed at that time, was considered so exceedingly deviant that almost no one ever admitted to participating in such practices. So homosexuality might not have occurred to commentators of that day.
But it is by no means certain that this scripture means that "the king" will be homosexual.
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This is utter nonsense.
Even if the doctrine of the pre-trib rapture did turn out to be incorrect, that fact would not shake any true Christian's faith in God or in His word. It would most certainly shake their faith in their leaders, but that in most cases would be a good thing, for most Christians put too much faith in their human leaders and not enough in the simple words of God.
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B
Bible2
Guest
While the Antichrist could be a homosexual, that isn't what Daniel
11:37 means. It means that he'll have no regard for a god desired
by women (cf. Ezekiel 8:14).
---
Not all pre-tribbers will lose their faith when the pre-trib rapture
doesn't happen. But some pre-tribbers, just as some post-tribbers,
could become "offended" by their suffering during the tribulation, to
the point where they'll fall away from the faith (Matthew 13:21,
24:10, Luke 8:13), and so become part of the falling away
(2 Thessalonians 2:3), the apostasy, the departure from the faith
(1 Timothy 4:1-2), which must occur before Jesus returns after the
tribulation to gather together (rapture) the church (2 Thessalonians
2:1-3, Matthew 24:29-31).
The danger of the false hope of a pre-trib rapture is that it can
leave believers less prepared to endure the coming tribulation with
patience and faith unto the end (Revelation 13:10, 14:12-13,
Matthew 24:9-13).
The greatest danger is the belief that God himself, in the Bible, has
promised the church a pre-trib rapture, so that when it doesn't
happen, this belief won't cause some in the church to reject their
human leaders, but God himself, as a cruel liar, when they begin to
go through the tribulation (Isaiah 8:21-22).
The Antichrist will no doubt play up the false idea of the pre-trib
rapture being promised by God himself in the Bible, so that when
there's no pre-trib rapture, people will come to think that the Bible
isn't true, or that God was too weak, or too cruel, to fulfill his
promise to the church. In such a way the Antichrist could get some
suffering Christians to agree with him when he begins to utterly
revile God (Daniel 11:36, Revelation 13:6).
11:37 means. It means that he'll have no regard for a god desired
by women (cf. Ezekiel 8:14).
---
Not all pre-tribbers will lose their faith when the pre-trib rapture
doesn't happen. But some pre-tribbers, just as some post-tribbers,
could become "offended" by their suffering during the tribulation, to
the point where they'll fall away from the faith (Matthew 13:21,
24:10, Luke 8:13), and so become part of the falling away
(2 Thessalonians 2:3), the apostasy, the departure from the faith
(1 Timothy 4:1-2), which must occur before Jesus returns after the
tribulation to gather together (rapture) the church (2 Thessalonians
2:1-3, Matthew 24:29-31).
The danger of the false hope of a pre-trib rapture is that it can
leave believers less prepared to endure the coming tribulation with
patience and faith unto the end (Revelation 13:10, 14:12-13,
Matthew 24:9-13).
The greatest danger is the belief that God himself, in the Bible, has
promised the church a pre-trib rapture, so that when it doesn't
happen, this belief won't cause some in the church to reject their
human leaders, but God himself, as a cruel liar, when they begin to
go through the tribulation (Isaiah 8:21-22).
The Antichrist will no doubt play up the false idea of the pre-trib
rapture being promised by God himself in the Bible, so that when
there's no pre-trib rapture, people will come to think that the Bible
isn't true, or that God was too weak, or too cruel, to fulfill his
promise to the church. In such a way the Antichrist could get some
suffering Christians to agree with him when he begins to utterly
revile God (Daniel 11:36, Revelation 13:6).
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I can find seven Jewish assemblies in asia referenced in revelations, but none about the One New Man can be found.
The blunder of thinking this is about the hope, and calling of the secret hid in God since the foundation is clearly proven wrong by the myriads of prophetic scriptures that revelations foretells there fulfillment.
I guess your all still partaking gentiles, grafted into Israels hope, plus the doctrine of works is clearly being presented and contradicts the grace doctrine of total eqaulity found in the post acts letters of Paul.
I also see a deception for the post tribbers as well a flash trib with a falsh christ coming to the rescue, if you find your self within the prophetic program then the mystery program is over and that body is complete and seated in glory.
azeke.
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B
Bible2
Guest
Greetings.
Note that Revelation chapters 1-3 don't say or require that the
seven first-century local church congregations in the Roman province
of "Asia" (Revelation 1:11) consisted entirely of Jewish Christians,
instead of a mixture of both Jewish and Gentile Christians. For the
passage about the "one new man" in Ephesians 2:15b is addressed to
Gentile Christians in Ephesus (Ephesians 2:11), and Ephesus was one
of the seven first-century local church congregations in the Roman
province of "Asia" (Revelation 1:11).
Note that the secret hid in God since the foundation of the world,
the salvation of Gentiles along with Jews (Ephesians 3:4-9), was
hidden within the Jewish Old Testament prophetic scriptures (Acts
26:22-23, Isaiah 49:6, 42:6) until the proper interpretation of those
prophecies by the church revealed the secret (Romans 16:25b-26).
And Revelation shows clearly that the church will go through the
tribulation (Revelation 13:7-10, 14:12-13, 20:4), both Jewish and
Gentile Christians (Revelation 7:9,14). Everyone who has faith in
Jesus is part of the church (Ephesians 4:4-5).
All Jews in the church remain part of Israel by birth (Romans 11:1),
and all Gentiles in the church have been grafted into Israel by faith
(Romans 11:17,24, Ephesians 2:12,19, Galatians 3:29). This is
necessary because the New Covenant/Testament by which everyone
in the church is saved (Matthew 26:28, 1 Corinthians 11:25,
2 Corinthians 3:6, Hebrews 9:15) is made only with Israel (Jeremiah
31:31-34). The whole church is the twelve tribes of Israel (Revelation
21:9b,12b). Grace and works are both true at the same time
(Revelation 1:4, 14:12-13, 22:21). Paul teaches salvation by faith
and works (Romans 2:7), just as other scriptures addressed to the
church do (Matthew 7:21, James 2:24, Hebrews 5:9).
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