there will be a great disappointment

derek W L said:

when israel goes to war with iran there will be a great disappointment when the biblical war of Gog and Magog does not happen its going to make Amillennialism and the Catholic Church look good

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Well, now...hold on a second. It looks like an invasion of neighbors is first and then Gog-Persia which will be Ezek's war that God intervenes in.

An attack by Israel on Iran's nuke facilities would just be a step on the way to Ezek's war. Iran will scream foul but I doubt they'll attack Israel without help.

LLOJ lurks about for awhile......

Luke 21:28 Beginning yet to-be-becoming/ginesqai <1096> (5738) these-things, up-bend! and lift up! the heads of ye, thru-that is nearing the Loosing/apo-lutrwsiV <629> of ye [Daniel 12/Reve 16/21]

Reve 21:6 And He said to me "it-has-become/gegonen <1096> (5754). [Reve 16:17]

I'm not sure who would be most likely to prevail in an Israel vs. Iran battle, assuming the US doesn't stick its big nose in the middle of things.

Israel seems to be the great wild card, or X-factor, in so many end times scenarios. If Israel gets wiped out, it could set the whole end times calendar back by a hundred years or more.

Very strange and interesting times we are living in.

Mark2010 said:

I'm not sure who would be most likely to prevail in an Israel vs. Iran battle, assuming the US doesn't stick its big nose in the middle of things.

Israel seems to be the great wild card, or X-factor, in so many end times scenarios. If Israel gets wiped out, it could set the whole end times calendar back by a hundred years or more.

Very strange and interesting times we are living in.

Click to expand...

God is not going to allow Israel to get wiped out. Their rebirth as a nation was a fulfillment of prophecy.


Isa 66:8Who has ever heard of such a thing? Who has ever seen such things? Can a country be born in a day or a nation be brought forth in a moment? Yet no sooner is Zion in labor than she gives birth to her children.

HisdaughterJen said:

God is not going to allow Israel to get wiped out. Their rebirth as a nation was a fulfillment of prophecy. ...............

Click to expand...

Romans 9:27 Isaiah yet cries-out over the Israel "if-ever may be the number of the sons of Israel as the sand of the sea, the Remnant/kata-leimma <2640> shall be being Saved". [Daniel 12:1]

Daniel 12:1 And in time, that, Miyka'el shall standup, the Chief the Great the one standing over sons of people of thee,
and a time/06256 `eth of distress/06869 tsarah becomes, which not occurred from to become of a Nation, until the time/06256 `eth, that. [Matthew 24/Revelation 12]

The OP appears to be based on an assumption that Gog is Iran, and one other post in this thread directly ststes that. But Ezekiel distinctly states that Gog is "of the land of Magog." The ancient territory of Magog is well known to modern hgistorians, and is shown in this map. It is unquestionably the territiry know known as the Ukraine.

But the OP also is based upon a false premise. That false premise is that a prophecy in the Bible will not necessarily be fulfilled. This prophecy will unquestionably be fulfilled in its time.

HisdaughterJen said:

God is not going to allow Israel to get wiped out. Their rebirth as a nation was a fulfillment of prophecy.


Isa 66:8Who has ever heard of such a thing? Who has ever seen such things? Can a country be born in a day or a nation be brought forth in a moment? Yet no sooner is Zion in labor than she gives birth to her children.

Click to expand...

The hard part is discerning the times. Israel was "wiped out" when it was taken into captivity in Babylon in Daniel's time in the OT. Then they came back and later were "wiped out" again around 70AD. So do we know with any certainty that history will not repeat itself? Is it possible they could be wiped out again and later reunite.

Maybe our timing is aschew by a few hundred years and the end is not as soon as some would assume. I honestly don't know; I'm just speculating.

Well, God has made promises. Once they are back in the land, He protects them and He has and He will when gog invades. There's no scriptures that say it will happen again.

Israel may not go to war with Iran soon in the sense
of starting a war with Iran. Instead, Israel could
go along with a U.S. plan to build up the Iraqi Army
until it's big enough to take out Iran and force a
cessation of its nuclear program and extremist regime.

But this plan could go horribly wrong, for once the
Iraqi Army is all built up and ready to invade Iran
(possibly in 2010), an Iraqi Baathist General placed
in charge of the Iraqi Army could suddenly order it
to turn on its heels and make a surprise attack on
tiny Israel instead, completely defeating Israel, and
then Egypt (Daniel 11:15-17; in verse 17, the Hebrew
word translated as "daughter" is "bath").

Iran could join in with the Iraqi attack on Israel by
sending missiles against Israel. And Syria could also
join in by sending missiles into Israel, not to
mention the Syrian Army.

While in its death throes, Israel could retaliate
against Iraq, Iran, and Syria by sending its nukes
against their major cities. Israel's nukes could be
the "great sword" of the awful war which will begin
the coming tribulation (Revelation 6:4-8).

---

There wouldn't be a great disappointment if the
Biblical event of Gog and Magog (Ezekiel chapters
38-39) didn't happen, for the event of Gog and Magog
is a bad thing, not some good thing that people are
looking forward to. But the event of Gog and Magog
will happen because it's part of the things which
"must" happen (Revelation 1:1, 22:6). But it won't
happen until after the millennium is over (Revelation
20:7-9).

No scripture says or requires that the event of Gog
and Magog will happen at any other time than after
the millennium (Revelation 20:7-9), so the event of
Gog and Magog not happening at the time of the war
between Israel on the one hand and Iraq, Iran, and
Syria on the other, would in no way mean that the
errors of atheism, preterism, amillennialism, or the
Catholic Church's support of amillennialism would look
any better after that war than before it.

---

An attack by Israel on Iran's nuke facilities wouldn't
work, and Israel knows it, because some of Iran's key
nuke facilities are buried in tunnels too deep and too
well hardened to be destroyed by any bombs that Israel
currently has. Even the U.S. knows that it couldn't be
assured of destroying Iran's deepest nuke facilities
if the U.S. tried to bomb them with its "bunker buster"
and ground-penetrating bombs. So the only answer is an
all-out ground invasion of Iran, to completely take it
over, throw out its extremist regime and systematically
dismantle its nuke facilities.

But the U.S. public has no desire for a third war,
much less an all-out draft to make it possible, nor
does the U.S. or Israel have enough troops to be able
to invade and control huge, mountainous Iran. So the
U.S. and Israel could decide on building up a proxy
army to do the dirty work for them, to be the cannon
fodder for them. And the Iraqi Army could be chosen
as the perfect proxy army, as it's right next door to
Iran, and could be whipped up into a frenzied desire
to invade Iran by a series of brutal false-flag
attacks against innocent Iraqi civilians, which
attacks could involve entire Iraqi cities being ruined
by "dirty bombs" laced with radioactive materials. The
CIA and Mossad could make these attacks appear to have
come from Iran, and the radioactive materials to have
come from Iran's uranium-enrichment program, so that
not only the Iraqi Army, but the whole world, will
think that an immediate all-out invasion of Iran by
Iraq is justified by self-defense.

This would also get the U.S. and Israel off the hook
of world opinion as being the "aggressors" against
Iran. The U.S. and Israel could pretend before the
world that the war is simply between Iran and a
sovereign Iraq driven to desperation by Iran's attacks,
instead of the war actually being between Iran and a
puppet Iraq manipulated by the U.S. and Israel to do
their bidding.

---

If the current state of Israel gets wiped out, it
would in no way set the whole end times calendar back
by a hundred years or more, but would even permit the
coming into effect of that calendar, for the
destruction of the current state of Israel would leave
an opening for the ultra-Orthodox Jews in Israel to
set up a new state of Israel, a city-state in the
walled Old City of Jerusalem, based strictly on the
Mosaic law, with a rebuilt temple and animal
sacrifices and everything.

These things have to be re-established because the
Antichrist has to attack the temple, stop the animal
sacrifices, and sit in the temple and proclaim himself
God (Daniel 11:31,36, Matthew 24:15, 2 Thessalonians
2:4).

And these things cannot possibly be re-established so
long as the current state of Israel remains in
existence, for it will never permit the ultra-Orthodox
Jews to demolish the Islamic Dome of the Rock in order
to clear the site on the Temple Mount where the temple
must be rebuilt. The current state of Israel will never
permit this because it knows full well that as soon as
the ultra-Orthodox Jews demolished the Dome of the Rock,
all hell would break loose against Israel, with enraged
Muslims worldwide calling for and bringing into
execution an overwhelming all-out jihad against Israel
which would result in its destruction.

The irony is that the ultra-Orthodox Jews also know
this full well, so that in their great desire to create
a new Israel based strictly on the Mosaic law, with a
rebuilt temple and animal sacrifices and everything,
they could go ahead and demolish the Dome of the Rock
against the will of the current state of Israel, thinking
that not only will this clear the site for the temple,
but also result in the clearing out of the current state
of Israel by the hands of the Muslims, thereby making
way for the ultra-Orthodox Jews' new state of Israel.

The ultra-Orthodox Jews could figure that while God no
doubt will let the Muslims wipe out the current, secular
state of Israel, which the ultra-Orthodox Jews consider
to be an abomination to God, he won't permit the Muslims
to wipe out the ultra-Orthodox Jews' new Godly state of
Israel, but will miraculously protect it.

And this could turn out to be the case, for the main
force of the Muslims' attack on Israel after the ultra-
Orthodox Jews demolish the Dome of the Rock could be
a huge Iraqi Army which the U.S. had just finished
building up to invade Iran instead. The U.S. could have
placed this Iraqi Army in the hands of an Iraqi Baathist
General who had cunningly made himself appear very
friendly to the interests of the U.S. and Israel, but
who will see the demolishing of the Dome of the Rock by
Jews as a perfect casus belli to, instead of invading
Iran, turn and make a surprise attack on Israel, for the
Baathists hate Israel more than they hate Iran.

But the Baathists don't care that much about religion,
so when the Iraqi Baathist General reaches the walled
Old City of Jerusalem and sees it extremely well-
defended by the ultra-Orthodox Jews (who are well-armed
with machine guns), he could think that it would take
too much time and resources to conquer, when he will
have a great desire to keep moving south with his
massive army in order to conquer Egypt in the name of
Baathism, for the Baathists see Egypt as a puppet of
the U.S.; their ultimate goal is to free all Arab
lands from all Western hegemony and create a United
Arab States stretching from Dubai to Morocco.

So the fervent prayers of the ultra-Orthodox Jews
holed up in the walled Old City of Jerusalem will
be answered; the Iraqi Baathist General could leave
merely a token force to "lay siege" to the Old City
while he moves with his army into Egypt. And while
he's busy in Egypt (and subsequent Arab countries,
Daniel 11:18), the ultra-Orthodox Jews could finish
rebuilding their temple and setting up their new
Mosaic state of Israel within the Old City of
Jerusalem.

And the Iraqi Baathist General will never come back
to defeat them, for he will disappear from the scene
after a defeat in some far-off Arab country (Daniel
11:18b-19), such as Algeria. So the ultra-Orthodox
Jews will praise God and acknowledge the amazing
miracle of letting them set up their new Israel
despite the enemies surrounding them.

But then the Antichrist will come on the scene
(Daniel 11:21) and attack and defeat the ultra-
Orthodox Jews and a false "Messiah" of theirs
(Daniel 11:22). And right when the ultra-Orthodox
Jews think that all is lost, another miracle will
occur: the Antichrist, instead of slaughtering
their Messiah and all of them, will instead "cut"
a peace treaty with their Messiah (Daniel 11:23,
9:26), permitting him and the other ultra-Orthodox
Jews to keep their temple and offer their sacrifices
for at least seven more years (Daniel 9:27a), so
long as they agree to forfeit the outer court of the
temple (Revelation 11:2a) to the Muslims so they can
worship in the Al Aqsa Mosque at the southern end of
the Temple Mount.

Though greatly grieved by this requirement, the
ultra-Orthodox Jews will agree to it nonetheless
rather than lose the entire temple.

And so they will be allowed by the Antichrist to
keep their temple and offer their sacrifices, which
they will do for two or three years before the
Antichrist returns and breaks the treaty, attacks
the temple, stops the sacrifices, and commits the
abomination of desolation (Daniel 9:27b, 11:31,
Matthew 24:15), which will involve him sitting in
the temple and proclaiming himself God
(2 Thessalonians 2:4, Daniel 11:36).

Then all the hopes of the ultra-Orthodox Jews will
be dashed. But some of them will survive the
Antichrist's subsequent 3.5-year Luciferian reign
of terror over the earth (Revelation 13:4-18),
and will refuse to worship him or his image or
take his mark on their hand or forehead, so that
they will still have a chance of becoming saved
(contrast Revelation 14:9-11).

And then, at the second coming of Jesus Christ, which
could occur 1,335 days after the abomination of
desolation (Daniel 12:11-12, Revelation 16:15), all
of the unsaved elect Jews (whether ultra-Orthodox or
not) who are still alive and who refused the
Antichrist will become believers and be saved when
they see Jesus (Zechariah 12:10-14, Romans 11:25-31).
And so they will become part of the church at that
time, for there are no believers outside of the church
(Ephesians 4:4-5, 1 Corinthians 12:13).

And the returned Jesus will set up a truly new state
of Israel, a new covenant state of Israel (Matthew
26:28, Jeremiah 31:31-34), which will include not only
all saved Jews of all times, but all saved Gentiles of
all times, for all saved Gentiles of all times have
been grafted into Israel (Romans 11:17,24, Ephesians
2:12,19, Galatians 3:29). The whole church is Israel
(Revelation 21:9b,12b), saved by the new covenant
(Matthew 26:28, 1 Corinthians 11:25, 2 Corinthians 3:6,
Hebrews 9:15) made only with Israel (Jeremiah 31:31-34).

And the returned Jesus will sit upon the throne of
David (Luke 1:32, Isaiah 9:7) and rule the entire
world (Psalms 72:8) from a restored Jerusalem
(Zechariah 14:8-9, Micah 4:1-4) with a new covenant
temple and everything (Zechariah 14:20-21, 6:12-13).

And the resurrected and immortalized church will rule
on the earth with Jesus for 1,000 years (Revelation
20:4-6, 5:10, 2:26-29).

Amen. Come, Lord Jesus (Revelation 22:20,17).

derek W L said:

when israel goes to war with iran soon there will be a great disappointment when the biblical war of Gog and Magog does not happen its going to make Atheists Preterism and the Catholic Church look good

Click to expand...

please elaborate

HisdaughterJen said:

Well, God has made promises. Once they are back in the land, He protects them and He has and He will when gog invades. There's no scriptures that say it will happen again.

Click to expand...

Hi Jen

I agree with poster Bible2 who said . . . "No scripture says or requires that the event of Gog and Magog will happen at any other time than after
the millennium (Revelation 20:7-9) . . . "



Jen, have you considered these prophecies which I believe are yet to be fulfilled ??

Rev 12:6
Then the woman fled into the wilderness, where a place had been prepared for her by God so that she might be taken care of for 1,260 days.

Micah 4:10
Writhe and labor to give birth, Daughter of Zion, Like a woman in childbirth; For now you will go out of the city, Dwell in the field, And go to Babylon. There you will be rescued; There the LORD will redeem you From the hand of your enemies.

Hosea 2:14
Therefore, behold, I will allure her, and bring her into the wilderness, and speak comfortably to her.

Hosea 12:9
But I have been the LORD your God since the land of Egypt; I will make you live in tents again, As in the days of the appointed festival.

Jeremiah 31:2
Thus saith Jehovah, The people that were left of the sword found favor in the wilderness; even Israel, when I went to cause him to rest.

Ezekiel 11:10
Ye shall fall by the sword; I will judge you in the border of Israel; and ye shall know that I am the LORD.




God has yet to pour out his wrath on the Jews (Luke 21:23), and I believe their Day of Atonement has yet to come where the scapegoat (Jewish remnant?) is sent into the desert to carry off their iniquities (Lev 16:20-22).

Bob Frantz 76

saint2 said:

Hi Jen

I agree with poster Bible2 who said . . . "No scripture says or requires that the event of Gog and Magog will happen at any other time than after
the millennium (Revelation 20:7-9) . . . "



Jen, have you considered these prophecies which I believe are yet to be fulfilled ??

Rev 12:6
Then the woman fled into the wilderness, where a place had been prepared for her by God so that she might be taken care of for 1,260 days.

Micah 4:10
Writhe and labor to give birth, Daughter of Zion, Like a woman in childbirth; For now you will go out of the city, Dwell in the field, And go to Babylon. There you will be rescued; There the LORD will redeem you From the hand of your enemies.

Hosea 2:14
Therefore, behold, I will allure her, and bring her into the wilderness, and speak comfortably to her.

Hosea 12:9
But I have been the LORD your God since the land of Egypt; I will make you live in tents again, As in the days of the appointed festival.

Jeremiah 31:2
Thus saith Jehovah, The people that were left of the sword found favor in the wilderness; even Israel, when I went to cause him to rest.

Ezekiel 11:10
Ye shall fall by the sword; I will judge you in the border of Israel; and ye shall know that I am the LORD.




God has yet to pour out his wrath on the Jews (Luke 21:23), and I believe their Day of Atonement has yet to come where the scapegoat (Jewish remnant?) is sent into the desert to carry off their iniquities (Lev 16:20-22).

Bob Frantz 76

Click to expand...

Technically, the scapegoat died in the wilderness so I don't believe that's what those passages refer to.

I think that the 144,000 (symbolic of a large, complete number) of Israel will be sealed and protected by God during the reign of the devil on the Day of the Lord.

I think that the woman who is taken care of by God during that time is Spiritual Israel that "resides" on those 144,000 (symbolic number) of earthly Israel when those 42 months begin. Does that make sense?

And yes, I do agree that 2/3 of the Jewish people will die according to Zechariah during that time. I wonder what percentage died during the holocaust? Horrible to consider it happening again....

Technically, the scapegoat died in the wilderness so I don't believe that's what those passages refer to.

Click to expand...

Jen, why do you say that? Can you substantiate that the scapegoat died in the wilderness, or is that merely your opinion??

I agree on the Day of the LORD, God will save them out of their distresses. The scriptures corroborate this:
Alas! for that day is great, so that none is like it: it is even the time of Jacob's trouble; but he shall be saved out of it (Jer 30:7)




My previous post was in response to your statement:
"...Once they are back in the land, He protects them and He has and He will when gog invades. There's no scriptures that say it will happen again."

I agree. When Gog invades Israel, God will surely protect them as the scriptures clearly show (Ezek 38 & 39).

But Gog's invasion comes after the Millennium (see Rev 20:9).

There are absolutely no scriptures that say Gog will come prior to the Millennium. That's man's invention.




But prior to the Millennium, Zechariah tells us:
I will gather all the nations to Jerusalem to fight against it; the city will be captured, the houses ransacked, and the women raped. Half of the city will go into exile, but the rest of the people will not be taken from the city(Zec 14:2)

In my previous post I presented six scriptures (Rev 12:6, Mic 4:10, Hos 2:14 & 12:9, Jer 31:2 and Ezek 11:10).

These scriptures show that the half of Jeruselum that goes into exile (Zec 14:2) will be the faithful Jewish remnant who escape God's wrath and who will be redeemed in the deserts of Babylon (now southern Iraq):
Writhe and labor to give birth, Daughter of Zion, Like a woman in childbirth; For now you will go out of the city, Dwell in the field, And go to Babylon. There you will be rescued; There the LORD will redeem you From the hand of your enemies (Micah 4:10)




Scriptures do show that their will be a future gathering of all Israel. God will give them a new heart and new spirit, and they will dwell on the land of Israel throughout all generations, as long as the sun and moon endure (Psalm 72:5).

Bob Frantz

saint2 said:

Jen, why do you say that? Can you substantiate that the scapegoat died in the wilderness, or is that merely your opinion??

Click to expand...

Are you suggesting that the scapegoat, loaded down with the sins of the people and led out into the desert, was loved by God and fed by God, or is that merely your opinion??


Leviticus 16 describes the scapegoat.

My previous post was in response to your statement:
"...Once they are back in the land, He protects them and He has and He will when gog invades. There's no scriptures that say it will happen again."

Click to expand...

But I was not referring to gog, I was referring to Israel being wiped out. God will not allow them to be wiped out again....dispersed from their land and killed.

I agree. When Gog invades Israel, God will surely protect them as the scriptures clearly show (Ezek 38 & 39).

But Gog's invasion comes after the Millennium (see Rev 20:9).

There are absolutely no scriptures that say Gog will come prior to the Millennium. That's man's invention.

Click to expand...

No, Ezek 38/39's gog invasion is before the millennium. Rev's gog is at the end of the millennium.

But prior to the Millennium, Zechariah tells us:
I will gather all the nations to Jerusalem to fight against it; the city will be captured, the houses ransacked, and the women raped. Half of the city will go into exile, but the rest of the people will not be taken from the city(Zec 14:2)

In my previous post I presented six scriptures (Rev 12:6, Mic 4:10, Hos 2:14 & 12:9, Jer 31:2 and Ezek 11:10).

These scriptures show that the half of Jeruselum that goes into exile (Zec 14:2) will be the faithful Jewish remnant who escape God's wrath and who will be redeemed in the deserts of Babylon (now southern Iraq):
Writhe and labor to give birth, Daughter of Zion, Like a woman in childbirth; For now you will go out of the city, Dwell in the field, And go to Babylon. There you will be rescued; There the LORD will redeem you From the hand of your enemies (Micah 4:10)

Click to expand...

Hold on there...you're mixing history with prophecy.

They've already been to Babylon and were brought back from there.

I have no doubt that there are difficult times ahead for both believing and unbelieving Jews, as Zech 14 describes, but they won't be going back to Babylon.

Scriptures do show that their will be a future gathering of all Israel. God will give them a new heart and new spirit, and they will dwell on the land of Israel throughout all generations, as long as the sun and moon endure (Psalm 72:5).

Bob Frantz

Click to expand...

HisdaughterJen said:

Are you suggesting that the scapegoat, loaded down with the sins of the people and led out into the desert, was loved by God and fed by God, or is that merely your opinion??

Click to expand...

Only the goat for the sin offering was killed. The scapegoat made atonement with God and was set free to live in the wilderness (Lev 16:10)

But I was not referring to gog, I was referring to Israel being wiped out. God will not allow them to be wiped out again....dispersed from their land and killed.

Click to expand...

Thus saith Jehovah, The people that were left of the sword found favor in the wilderness; even Israel, when I went to cause him to rest (Jer 31:2)

No, Ezek 38/39's gog invasion is before the millennium. Rev's gog is at the end of the millennium.

Click to expand...

Prove it with Scripture please.

Hold on there...you're mixing history with prophecy.

They've already been to Babylon and were brought back from there.

I have no doubt that there are difficult times ahead for both believing and unbelieving Jews, as Zech 14 describes, but they won't be going back to Babylon.

Click to expand...

Prophecy has been known to repeat itself.

Biblewriter said:

We read in Ezekiel 39:22So the house of Israel shall know that I am the LORD their God from that day and forward.
This scripture clearly sets the date of the attack mentioned here as after the time of the Antichrist and before the millennium, because during the time of the Antichrist they will not know that he is the LORD their God, and during the millennium the whole earth will know it. So the attack mentioned here has to be between these two times.

Click to expand...

With all due respect BW, I think you are confusing the house of Judah with the house of Israel.

Bob Frantz