When will the Rapture begin?

JDS · Nov 6, 2008

HisdaughterJen said:
Peter was not told to found a universal church.
The Mosaic Covenant was not conditional.

I have not spoken one time about the conditional Mosaic covenant. It is not under consideration at all in this discussion of the rapture of the church of Jesus Christ.

Here, let me quote this to you again for the third time.

Deuteronomy 5:2 The LORD our God made a covenant with us in Horeb.

This is what we know as the Mosaic covenant!

Deuteronomy 29:1 These [are] the words of the covenant, which the LORD commanded Moses to make with the children of Israel in the land of Moab, beside the covenant which he made with them in Horeb.

The judge of all the earth, God, swore to this covenant with an oath. Everything he says in it in the way of a promise from him MUST come to pass at some time. Nothing can fail! It will come to pass and Jesus Christ added much more detail to how it will come to pass and when in his olivet discourse. Neither of these passages has anything to do with the church of Jesus Christ or the rapture of it!

I'm sorry, this should have been a response to the comments of gwynedd1 and not HDJ.

HisdaughterJen · Nov 6, 2008

JDS said:
I'm sorry, this should have been a response to the comments of gwynedd1 and not HDJ.

LittleLambofJesus · Nov 6, 2008

When will the Rapture begin

Whenever eveyone stops talking about it

Matthew 24:31 and He shall be sending His Messengers with a Trumpet sound, great, and they shall be together-gathering the out-called-ones of Him out of the four winds, from extremities of heavens till the extremities of them. [Revelation 8:6]

Revelation 8:6 And the seven messengers having the seven Trumpets make ready themselves, that they-should-be-Trumpeting;[Joshua 6:4]

gwynedd1 · Nov 7, 2008

JDS said:
Please! Israel is gathered at this time from her second dispersion to her land. She became a nation in 1948. She has been under constant persecution since that day and she is as far from salvation as about any nation could get. So, that is not my point. My point is that Israel will make a 7 year peace treaty with the man who will be revealed as the man of sin, the anti-christ and in the middle of the 7 years, will be scattered for the third time under the intense heat of this Satan inspired man. Jesus Christ says is the GREAT tribulation.

The Palestinian covenant has this regathering in mind because when it happens, Israel will 1) be purged of her unbelievers, and 2) will be curcumcised in her heart nationally. This is a promise that God has covenanted with them and is unconditional. He has sworn it will happen. He will bring them back into their land converted. He will RETURN, he says, both in the Duet 30 and in Matt 24 passages and will send his angels to fetch them to the land. There is no resurrection from the dead or calling them to meet him in the air in either of these passages.

You may not have read my earlier comments so I will provide you with the covenant promise.

Deuteronomy 29:1 These [are] the words of the covenant, which the LORD commanded Moses to make with the children of Israel in the land of Moab, beside the covenant which he made with them in Horeb. (That would be the Mosaic Covenant)
Deuteronomy 29:12 That thou shouldest enter into covenant with the LORD thy God, and into his oath, which the LORD thy God maketh with thee this day:
13 That he may establish thee to day for a people unto himself, and that he may be unto thee a God, as he hath said unto thee, and as he hath sworn unto thy fathers, to Abraham, to Isaac, and to Jacob.
14 Neither with you only do I make this covenant and this oath;
15 But with him that standeth here with us this day before the LORD our God, and also with him that is not here with us this day:
Hebrews 6:16 For men verily swear by the greater: and an oath for confirmation is to them an end of all strife.
Hebrews 6:17 Wherein God, willing more abundantly to shew unto the heirs of promise the immutability of his counsel, confirmed it by an oath:

Hebrews 6:13 For when God made promise to Abraham, because he could swear by no greater, he sware by himself,

When God confirms promises with an oath, even he cannot change it. It must come to pass. He confirms his unconditional promises by his own self!

The Palestinian land covenant must be fulfilled exactly as he has said and to whom he has said it. The language in Duet 30 is the same as that in Matt 24 because it is the fulfillment of it in the future! He is confirming the promises of the covenant!

Hi JDS,

Then you cannot believe Jesus is God. Its really that simple. If you believe that Jews are gathered into the land now either Deuteronomy is wrong or Jesus does not represent any path to God. No word twisting or desperate apologetic can alter the simple statement that they must repent first. Many of them are secular atheists let alone specifically rejecting Jesus. They are not brought into the land to be purged ever.

This is a gathering of devout men. You focus on apostates not in scripture where the Bible records those gathered a second time.

Acts 2

5Now there were Jews living in Jerusalem, (E)devout men from every nation under heaven.
6And when (F)this sound occurred, the crowd came together, and were bewildered because each one of them was hearing them speak in his own language.
7(G)They were amazed and astonished, saying, "Why, are not all these who are speaking (H)Galileans?
8"And how is it that we each hear them in our own language to which we were born?
9"Parthians and Medes and Elamites, and residents of Mesopotamia, Judea and (I)Cappadocia, (J)Pontus and (K)Asia,
10(L)Phrygia and (M)Pamphylia, Egypt and the districts of Libya around (N)Cyrene, and (O)visitors from Rome, both Jews and [a](P)proselytes,
11Cretans and Arabs--we hear them in our own tongues speaking of the mighty deeds of God."
12And (Q)they all continued in amazement and great perplexity, saying to one another, "What does this mean?"
13But others were mocking and saying, "(R)They are full of sweet wine."

Isaiah 11

11Then it will happen on that day that the Lord
Will again recover the second time with His hand
The (X)remnant of His people, who will remain,
From (Y)Assyria, (Z)Egypt, Pathros, Cush, (AA)Elam, Shinar, Hamath,
And from the (AB)islands of the sea.
12And He will lift up a (AC)standard for the nations
And (AD)assemble the banished ones of Israel,
And will gather the dispersed of Judah
From the four corners of the earth.

Your view is the opposite of scripture. Also please do not confuse the covenants with Abraham and Moses.

gwynedd1 · Nov 7, 2008

HisdaughterJen said:
Peter was not told to found a universal church.
The Mosaic Covenant was not conditional.

Hi HisdaughterJen,

Then all you need to do is show us which covenant was broken.

JDS · Nov 7, 2008

gwynedd1 said:
Hi JDS,

Then you cannot believe Jesus is God. Its really that simple. If you believe that Jews are gathered into the land now either Deuteronomy is wrong or Jesus does not represent any path to God. No word twisting or desperate apologetic can alter the simple statement that they must repent first. Many of them are secular atheists let alone specifically rejecting Jesus. They are not brought into the land to be purged ever.

This is a gathering of devout men. You focus on apostates not in scripture where the Bible records those gathered a second time.

Acts 2

5Now there were Jews living in Jerusalem, (E)devout men from every nation under heaven.
6And when (F)this sound occurred, the crowd came together, and were bewildered because each one of them was hearing them speak in his own language.
7(G)They were amazed and astonished, saying, "Why, are not all these who are speaking (H)Galileans?
8"And how is it that we each hear them in our own language to which we were born?
9"Parthians and Medes and Elamites, and residents of Mesopotamia, Judea and (I)Cappadocia, (J)Pontus and (K)Asia,
10(L)Phrygia and (M)Pamphylia, Egypt and the districts of Libya around (N)Cyrene, and (O)visitors from Rome, both Jews and [a](P)proselytes,
11Cretans and Arabs--we hear them in our own tongues speaking of the mighty deeds of God."
12And (Q)they all continued in amazement and great perplexity, saying to one another, "What does this mean?"
13But others were mocking and saying, "(R)They are full of sweet wine."

Isaiah 11

11Then it will happen on that day that the Lord
Will again recover the second time with His hand
The (X)remnant of His people, who will remain,
From (Y)Assyria, (Z)Egypt, Pathros, Cush, (AA)Elam, Shinar, Hamath,
And from the (AB)islands of the sea.
12And He will lift up a (AC)standard for the nations
And (AD)assemble the banished ones of Israel,
And will gather the dispersed of Judah
From the four corners of the earth.

Your view is the opposite of scripture. Also please do not confuse the covenants with Abraham and Moses.

I can not see any future in dealing on the peripherals. You did not address the covenant promises of the Palestinian covenant that God initiated and swore to with an oath. If this is shown to be void by time or forgetfulness, then your ideas could have warrant. If they are shown to have been fulfilled, then I will agree with anything else you have to teach me.

But, God has sworn to Israel and he would return and gather them into the land from whence they had been driven by his own anger towards them: Deuteronomy 29:28 And the LORD rooted them out of their land in anger, and in wrath, and in great indignation, and cast them into another land, as [it is] this day.

He has said he will bring them back as a converted nation.

3 That then the LORD thy God will turn thy captivity, and have compassion upon thee, and will return and gather thee from all the nations, whither the LORD thy God hath scattered thee.
4 If any of thine be driven out unto the outmost parts of heaven, from thence will the LORD thy God gather thee, and from thence will he fetch thee:
5 And the LORD thy God will bring thee into the land which thy fathers possessed, and thou shalt possess it; and he will do thee good, and multiply thee above thy fathers.
6 And the LORD thy God will circumcise thine heart, and the heart of thy seed, to love the LORD thy God with all thine heart, and with all thy soul, that thou mayest live.
7 And the LORD thy God will put all these curses upon thine enemies, and on them that hate thee, which persecuted thee.

You must tell me if you believe these are idle words or if you believe them!

HisdaughterJen · Nov 7, 2008

gwynedd1 said:
Hi HisdaughterJen,

Then all you need to do is show us which covenant was broken.

God restores Israel, gwyn. They rule the world during the millennium.

There are so many passages about God choosing them again...

Here's one:

Isa 54:5For your Maker is your husband-- the Lord Almighty is his name-- the Holy One of Israel is your Redeemer; he is called the God of all the earth.
...

Isa 54:7"For a brief moment I abandoned you, but with deep compassion I will bring you back.

Wizzer · Nov 7, 2008

JDS said:
...

None of the people who have disagreed with a pre trib rapture have answered yet with their own objections to the immutability of a sworn covenant with Israel concerning the land.

...

So, when people who disagree with the pre trib rapture of the church of Jesus Christ go to Matt 24 to prove it is post trib, they say a lot about their understanding of the ways of God!

...

Hello JDS,

You know (and I mean this with no animosity toward anyone), I have heard the claim before that Matthew 24 has nothing to do with the church, but I have never heard a reasonable explanation for such a claim. It seems to me that many just want to sweep a problem passage (a problem for their end-time view) away from consideration. Now I havent read through this entire thread, but if you think you have a post which you think really proves your point, please point it out to me for I would be willing to read it and give you my take on it.

And do please consider the following in your explanation. When I read Matthew 24, I see nothing which indicates an exclusion of the church. Now if it is your claim that this teaching does not include the church in any way, on what basis do you make such a claim? Do you see some wording within Matthew 24 which explicitly states that the church is not involved in any way? (I dont see such an exclusion.) Or do you see something from the local context near to Matthew 24 which makes such a claim? (Again, I see no such exclusion.)

Here is something to consider. The further away one must go from a text in order to "interpret" that text, the more of a "stretch" that interpretation becomes. So, the further one goes from Matthew 24 to prove their interpretation of Matthew 24, the less likely it is that others will accept that interpretation. So please, be my guest and tell me why Matthew 24 does not in any way involve the church; but if you cannot do so from within Matthew 24 itself, or from within the surrounding context, then do not be surprised if I or others have a hard time believing you. (I really need to see something from within the text or its local context which supports your claim.)

Wizzer

LittleLambofJesus · Nov 7, 2008

HisdaughterJen said:
God restores Israel, gwyn. They rule the world during the millennium.

There are so many passages about God choosing them again....

Glad I won't be around then.....

gwynedd1 · Nov 7, 2008

JDS said:
I can not see any future in dealing on the peripherals. You did not address the covenant promises of the Palestinian covenant that God initiated and swore to with an oath. If this is shown to be void by time or forgetfulness, then your ideas could have warrant. If they are shown to have been fulfilled, then I will agree with anything else you have to teach me.

But, God has sworn to Israel and he would return and gather them into the land from whence they had been driven by his own anger towards them: Deuteronomy 29:28 And the LORD rooted them out of their land in anger, and in wrath, and in great indignation, and cast them into another land, as [it is] this day.

He has said he will bring them back as a converted nation.

3 That then the LORD thy God will turn thy captivity, and have compassion upon thee, and will return and gather thee from all the nations, whither the LORD thy God hath scattered thee.
4 If any of thine be driven out unto the outmost parts of heaven, from thence will the LORD thy God gather thee, and from thence will he fetch thee:
5 And the LORD thy God will bring thee into the land which thy fathers possessed, and thou shalt possess it; and he will do thee good, and multiply thee above thy fathers.
6 And the LORD thy God will circumcise thine heart, and the heart of thy seed, to love the LORD thy God with all thine heart, and with all thy soul, that thou mayest live.
7 And the LORD thy God will put all these curses upon thine enemies, and on them that hate thee, which persecuted thee.

You must tell me if you believe these are idle words or if you believe them!

Hi JDS,

Is any scripture idol words? He did bring them back. I don't understand which part of Acts 2 was not bringing them back? Perhaps upon the restoration of all things the land itself will be given , only the lord knows how. However what you described in Deuteronomy is not biblical. God will drive out an apostate Israel and will gather a faithful one. That was the Old Covenant. All I ever read in the New Covenant is of the heavenly Jerusalem specifically rejecting the one in this world.

Hebrews 11

16But as it is, they desire a better country, that is, a (AM)heavenly one Therefore (AN)God is not ashamed to be (AO)called their God; for (AP)He has prepared a city for them.

Hebrews 12

22But (AR)you have come to Mount Zion and to (AS)the city of (AT)the living God, (AU)the heavenly Jerusalem, and to (AV)myriads of angels,

John 4

21Jesus said to her, "Woman, believe Me, (Y)an hour is coming when (Z)neither in this mountain nor in Jerusalem will you worship the Father.

Galatians 4

24(AF)This is allegorically speaking, for these women are two covenants: one proceeding from (AG)Mount Sinai bearing children who are to be (AH)slaves; she is Hagar. 25Now this Hagar is Mount Sinai in Arabia and corresponds to the present Jerusalem, for she is in slavery with her children.
26But (AI)the Jerusalem above is free; she is our mother.

What I see so often is ignoring what the New Testament proclaims , going back to the old Testament and interpreting it over again. In that case just turn to Essen/zealot style Judaism since that is really all it is.

gwynedd1 · Nov 7, 2008

HisdaughterJen said:
God restores Israel, gwyn. They rule the world during the millennium.

There are so many passages about God choosing them again...

Here's one:

Isa 54:5For your Maker is your husband-- the Lord Almighty is his name-- the Holy One of Israel is your Redeemer; he is called the God of all the earth.
...

Isa 54:7"For a brief moment I abandoned you, but with deep compassion I will bring you back.

Hi Jen,

I was looking for which Covenant was broken.

gracechick · Nov 7, 2008

Forgive me Lord, but some days it feels like not soon enough :bow:

Critias · Nov 7, 2008

The rapture will begin when the tribulation is over and God has appeared in the sky.

JDS · Nov 8, 2008

Wizzer said:
Hello JDS,

You know (and I mean this with no animosity toward anyone), I have heard the claim before that Matthew 24 has nothing to do with the church, but I have never heard a reasonable explanation for such a claim. It seems to me that many just want to sweep a problem passage (a problem for their end-time view) away from consideration. Now I haven’t read through this entire thread, but if you think you have a post which you think really proves your point, please point it out to me for I would be willing to read it and give you my take on it.

And do please consider the following in your explanation. When I read Matthew 24, I see nothing which indicates an exclusion of the church. Now if it is your claim that this teaching does not include the church in any way, on what basis do you make such a claim? Do you see some wording within Matthew 24 which explicitly states that the church is not involved in any way? (I don’t see such an exclusion.) Or do you see something from the local context near to Matthew 24 which makes such a claim? (Again, I see no such exclusion.)

Here is something to consider. The further away one must go from a text in order to "interpret" that text, the more of a "stretch" that interpretation becomes. So, the further one goes from Matthew 24 to prove their interpretation of Matthew 24, the less likely it is that others will accept that interpretation. So please, be my guest and tell me why Matthew 24 does not in any way involve the church; but if you cannot do so from within Matthew 24 itself, or from within the surrounding context, then do not be surprised if I or others have a hard time believing you. (I really need to see something from within the text or its local context which supports your claim.)

Wizzer

I wonder if you would state your doctrine and allow me to hold you to the same standard?

I have stated that God made covenants with Israel, his people, and he has sworn to all the uncondition covenants with an oath. I have spent much time dealing with the Palestinian covenant to show the promises in it.

Now, I will answer you but first I must know what you think about the covenants that God has made. Is he obliged to keep them? If you read the land covenant in Duet 30, can you state a time that the provisions of this covenant were instituted.

1 These are the words of the covenant, which the LORD commanded Moses to make with the children of Israel in the land of Moab, beside the covenant which he made with them in Horeb.

1 And it shall come to pass, when all these things are come upon thee, the blessing and the curse, which I have set before thee, and thou shalt call them to mind among all the nations, whither the LORD thy God hath driven thee, 2 And shalt return unto the LORD thy God, and shalt obey his voice according to all that I command thee this day, thou and thy children, with all thine heart, and with all thy soul;
________________________

That then the LORD thy God

1) will turn thy captivity, and have compassion upon thee, and
2) will return and gather thee from all the nations, whither the LORD thy God hath scattered thee. If any of thine be driven out unto the outmost parts of heaven, from thence
3) will the LORD thy God gather thee, and from thence will he fetch thee: And the LORD thy God
4) will bring thee into the land which thy fathers possessed, and thou shalt possess it; and he
5) will do thee good, and multiply thee above thy fathers. And the LORD thy God
6) will circumcise thine heart, and the heart of thy seed, to love the LORD thy God with all thine heart, and with all thy soul, that thou mayest live. And the LORD thy God
7) will put all these curses upon thine enemies, and on them that hate thee, which persecuted thee.

God said he will do these things. He said them in a covenant that he has sworn to with an oath. Has he ever done these things yet? Does he have to keep these promises?

Israel is a nation at this very hour. Do they love God with all their hearts? Has he done these things he has promised to them? Obviously the answer is no! Can he yet do them? Can he drive them out of the land in great indignation and can he bring them back and circumcise their hearts and the heart of their seed? Obviously the answer is yes!

But, will he? Yes! If he is going to keep his word to them in this covenant!

Before I compare these promises with the words of Jesus Christ in Matt 24, will you go on record as saying these words in this covenant are inconsequential and do not have to be fulfilled literally?

What say ye about these words of God?

Wizzer · Nov 9, 2008

JDS said:
I wonder if you would state your doctrine and allow me to hold you to the same standard?

Hello JDS,

My doctrine is simply to try to understand what the bible says, in as much as I am able to understand it. And as far as I know, I have no agenda other than to understand Gods agenda. Please do hold me to that standard.

JDS said:
Before I compare these promises with the words of Jesus Christ in Matt 24, will you go on record as saying these words in this covenant are inconsequential and do not have to be fulfilled literally? What say ye about these words of God?

I too believe God is still dealing with Israel, and that these words have not yet been fulfilled. But I must ask the question: why do you think you must start in such a manner to understand Matthew 24? Is not God also dealing with the church and the world-at-large at the same time He is continuing to deal with Israel? And is Matthew 24 so obscure that we must resort to Duet. 30 as a starting point for Matthew 24's interpretation? In other words, is there not enough clarity in Matthew 24 that it cannot stand on its own? (And not that Duet. 30 is irrelevant, but is it actually the necessary starting point for an understanding of Matthew 24?)

Given that you see an overlap between Gods covenant promises with Israel and what will occur at the end of the age (which I also see), why do you feel that this overlap excludes the church from any end-time participation? Jesus specifically brings up prophecy given in Daniel in an end-time setting to His disciples. Here is a question to think about. Does the prophecy in Daniel repeated by Christ in Matthew 24 (specifically the Abomination of Desolation) have application only to Israel, or does it have application also to all those living on earth at the that time? And why should this not also include the church?

Please read Matthew 24 again carefully (and I would be willing to give you my take on it if you like). Do you not see that what will be happening will be affecting the whole earth? (Consider the following verses concerning the "universal" impact of thee events: 24:7, 14, 21, 22, 29, 30, 31. And did not the flood of Noahs day - mentioned in verses 37 through 39 - affect the entire earth?)

So given the universal application of these events, I must come back to the questions raised in my previous post: on what basis do you exclude the church from these events? What is it that you see in Matthew 24 which excludes the church from any participation in these end-time events? Does not Jesus say in 24:9 that "they will deliver you up to tribulation and kill you, and you will be hated by all nations for My names sake". I am not sure how you could claim that these being persecuted for His names sake would be unbelieving Israel and not the church.

Please go back and read my previous post in this thread and think about what I have asked. I am not at all sure how or why you think Duet. 30 rescues the church from any and all end-time involvement? And I am not sure why you would want to start with Duet. 30 anyway: is Matthew 24 really that obscure on its own? (And is there nothing closer which is of relevance?)

Wizzer

JDS · Nov 9, 2008

Originally posted by Wizzer:
I am not at all sure how or why you think Duet. 30 rescues the church from any and all end-time involvement? And I am not sure why you would want to start with Duet. 30 anyway: is Matthew 24 really that obscure on its own? (And is there nothing closer which is of relevance?)

These are fair questions, Wizzer and I will try to answer them for you. First, let me make the point that Paul the apostle ,when writing Galatians, was explaining the promise of the Spirit to the gentiles through faith, went all the way back and lifted the promise from the Abrahamic covenant, "in thy seed shall all the families of the earth be blessed", and this was about 500 years before the Palestinian covenant was given to the Jews. So, we must go back to the foundation of biblical truth and follow it through the scriptures to keep our focus aligned correctly. We could do that with the Palestinian covenant, particlarly in all the prophets writings. They saw a time in the future when Israel would be in her land under her King Messiah, converted, and at peace with the whole world. It was always God who inspired the prophets prophecies and he is guiding history unto that eventuality. The reason he is doing it this way is because in this eventual kingdom, everyone who is in it will have willingly, and with self determination and deliberation and reason and faith, entered into it via the new birth. Jesus said to Nicodemus in Jn 3 that except a man is born again, he cannot enter into this kingdom. This presupposes that anyone entering into it is born again first, or at least they will enter it by means of being born again. Being born again is by faith and not by sight so when Jesus Christ aoppears for every eye to see him, it will be too late for those who have rejected him and they will perish.

If this were not so, God could and probably would have set up his kingdom already.

I should give you a couple of prophetic verses to illustrate my points above:

Ez27:21 And say unto them, Thus saith the Lord GOD; Behold, I will take the children of Israel from among the heathen, whither they be gone, and will gather them on every side, and bring them into their own land: 22 And I will make them one nation in the land upon the mountains of Israel; and one king shall be king to them all: and they shall be no more two nations, neither shall they be divided into two kingdoms any more at all: 23 Neither shall they defile themselves any more with their idols, nor with their detestable things, nor with any of their transgressions: but I will save them out of all their dwellingplaces, wherein they have sinned, and will cleanse them: so shall they be my people, and I will be their God. 24 And David my servant shall be king over them; and they all shall have one shepherd: they shall also walk in my judgments, and observe my statutes, and do them. 25 And they shall dwell in the land that I have given unto Jacob my servant, wherein your fathers have dwelt; and they shall dwell therein, even they, and their children, and their childrens children for ever: and my servant David shall be their prince for ever. 26 Moreover I will make a covenant of peace with them; it shall be an everlasting covenant with them: and I will place them, and multiply them, and will set my sanctuary in the midst of them for evermore. 27 My tabernacle also shall be with them: yea, I will be their God, and they shall be my people. 28 And the heathen shall know that I the LORD do sanctify Israel, when my sanctuary shall be in the midst of them for evermore.

Now, of course, this has nothing to do with gentiles. This is the promise concerning the nation of Israel and Judah being gathered back to her own land under one king and being converted and governed under the everlasting covenant which is the new covenant.

Originally posted by Wizzer:
Given that you see an overlap between Gods covenant promises with Israel and what will occur at the end of the age (which I also see), why do you feel that this overlap excludes the church from any end-time participation? Jesus specifically brings up prophecy given in Daniel in an end-time setting to His disciples. Here is a question to think about. Does the prophecy in Daniel repeated by Christ in Matthew 24 (specifically the Abomination of Desolation) have application only to Israel, or does it have application also to all those living on earth at the that time? And why should this not also include the church?

Because these covenant promises are made to Israel, the nation, which was a fulfillment of the stipulation in the Abrahamic covenant that God would make a great nation his seed and that he would give them all the land of Canaan forever as their inheritance. This has nothing to do with any other nation or with gentiles at all, church or otherwise.

Here is what he said concerning the gentiles all the while he was dealing with Israel in the OT and in the gospels before the cross.

Ep 2:11 Wherefore remember, that ye being in time past Gentiles in the flesh, who are called Uncircumcision by that which is called the Circumcision in the flesh made by hands; 12 That at that time ye were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope, and without God in the world: 13 But now in Christ Jesus ye who sometimes were far off are made nigh by the blood of Christ.

Thes covenant promises are exclusively Israelitish except the blessing of the nations through the promised seed which is still a promise to Abraham and not directly to the nations.

Now, the difference between the Jews and the gentiles since the cross is that the nation to whom the promises were made, Israel, rejected the Messiah through her national rulers and God fulfilled the spiritual blessings of these covenants to the remnant who believed, and through grace, also included the gentiles, as many as would believe the gospel of Jesus Christ. They became "partakers" with the Jewish remnant of these special blessings of God and both became his people through the new birth, they became the children of God, and were fashioned into a cohesive unity, the body of Christ, the church of Jesus Christ. The main Israel were blinded by their own unbelief and judicially blinded by God, the judge of all the earth and disperses as a nation and driven to the four wind and persecuted according to the curse in the Palestinian covenant. This, partial blindness of Israel in no way revokes the covenant promises of God, which are national covenants and all will be mituclously fulfilled as minutely as the prophecies concerning the first coming of Jesus Christ to the earth were fulfilled.

Historically speaking, the gentiles were made partakers of these blessings of Israel in Acts 10 with the events of the conversion of the Roman Cornelius. This is the time the second of the two entities that would form the one body of Christ was added. The Jewish element was the beginning of the formation of this body in Acts 2 when the Holy Spirit was sent to the earth and began to indwell believers in Jesus Christ and placing them into his body to function within the body at his own discretion.

So, to answer your question, Matt 24 is dealing with the covenanted people Israel after the church of Jesus Christ has been raptured and taken to heaven, adopted by the Father, and given their heavenly inheritance, joint heirs with Jesus Christ. The church and Israel is, and has always been, separate entities with separate destinies, promises, and relationships with the Godhead.

If you refuse to acknowledge this or to learn this, the scriptures will be a conflicting and a confusing peace of literature for you and you will be wrong in most of your conclusions.

However, I am here to help and I will anser any honest question, if I know the answer.

vinsight4u · Nov 11, 2008

You need to read Deuteronomy 32 as to the sealed up song of Moses for the latter days. Romans 10:19 shows us this has not yet come to pass.

A nation will be sent against Israel - that nation is Iraq.

Look too at Habakkuk chapter 1's vision of how the Chaldeans will come againt the nations. Chapter 2 is where God has Habakkuk write that the vision is for the end - "at the end it shall speak"
Acts 13:41 shows that the writer believed this will come while the church is here - lest that come upon you.
"work a work" - as to Habakkuk's work a work prophecy

Jesus cannot come back for the church till it is time to make His enemies His footstool - and He doesn't get allowance for Him to destroy till the 7th trumpet - as in Rev. 11:18.

If Jesus destroys before this time - those on the earth - then God would at the 7th trumpet message be required to destroy Himself.

He has gone to heaven till it is time to make His enemies His footstool.

Look at Rev. 19 - salvation happens - which is the rapture timing - and what city is destroyed then?
"avenged"
the city of Mystery, Babylon
the city that slew the trib saints

then comes the marriage - then come the armies of saints down from heaven

The great tribulation saints were at the same marriage as the non-trib saints were.

There isn't a rapture till the 7th trumpet time. The third woe - the great earthquake - when the two witnesses rise at the coming of the Lord.

dad · Nov 11, 2008

HumbleServant94 said:
Hi!
Listen, I used to believe in the pre-trib rapture. But now I'm having doubts. If you would be kind to submit proof from the Scriptures for evidence when the Rapture will start? Please keep heated arguments to zero.

Funny, I used to believe in post trib rapture but am now unsure! What is the key issues with you?

dad · Nov 11, 2008

JDS said:
So, to answer your question, Matt 24 is dealing with the covenanted people Israel after the church of Jesus Christ has been raptured and taken to heaven, adopted by the Father, and given their heavenly inheritance, joint heirs with Jesus Christ. The church and Israel is, and has always been, separate entities with separate destinies, promises, and relationships with the Godhead.

If you refuse to acknowledge this or to learn this, the scriptures will be a conflicting and a confusing peace of literature for you and you will be wrong in most of your conclusions.

.

Say what??? The temple was destroyed right here, no? Not after anything, long ago, before any rapture, obviously. Which PART of mat 24 precisely do you claim kicks in to applying only to after the rapture, and why? Seems like a lot of hot air to me.

JDS · Nov 11, 2008

dad said:
Say what??? The temple was destroyed right here, no? Not after anything, long ago, before any rapture, obviously. Which PART of mat 24 precisely do you claim kicks in to applying only to after the rapture, and why? Seems like a lot of hot air to me.

Jesus Christ's departure from the temple in Matt 24 was very symbolic. The temple was where God dwelt with his people Israel. He had just passed 7 woes on the religious leaders because they led the people astray and had wept over Jerusalem because they would not believe and now their house, family would be desolate. This was during his last week on earth. All decisions had been made.

He said in Matt 24 that he would destroy the temple/. When the Holy Spirit, who is God, came 50 days after he was crucified, it was not to dwell with Israel in the temple like he had done previously in the OT. Israel was eventually scattered into the nations when the temple was destroyed in AD 70.

Now then, there is no excuse for anyone to refuse to accept the historical context of the prophetic scriptures. God did not stop dealing with Israel and the world when the scriptures were completed. They contain much unfulfilled prophecy and the promises to Israel were not revoked because of the discipline of God because the promises do not depend upon Israel for their fulfillment.

But, if men, like Dad, are predisposed to be unteachable and think that the truth is hot air, nothing can be done for them.

Now, the abomination of desolation spoken of by Daniel the prophet has not occured yet. But it is a prophecy that he will stand in the holy place and the holy place was in the temple. That would have registered with Jews, but not with gentiles. If this is future, and it is, then it follows that there must be a holy place for the abomination to stand in. The holy place is in the temple!

One of the greatest miracles of human history is ignored and not even noted by blind religious men. That is the modern state of Israel. God dispersed them out of their land some 1900 years ago into nations who persecuted them intensely and he preserved them as a people in those nations and then gave them back their land and brought them to it and the reaction of most of you people is, "ho, hum, whats the big deal"? God will hold you accountable for missing this great miracle and not glorifying him for it.

Now, he is getting ready to fulfill his promise of salvation to his people Israel and all could be accomplished in the next 10 years and God's actions on the earth will be largely a surpise to most posters on this very forum because your God is so very small and you keep him in your theological box.

It is time for you to wake up!

When will the Rapture begin?

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