Gays versus Christians

Verv · Oct 31, 2008

OK: rephrase.

Lustful thoughts. Lusty, sexy, super sexy sexually oriented 'having sexual intercourse' 'making whoopee' thoughts.

OphidiaPhile · Oct 31, 2008

So lets look at the Christian assertion that Gay men are pedophiles and want to indoctrinate children. We have a study from UC Davis.

excerpt

Using the fixated-regressed distinction, Groth and Birnbaum (1978) studied 175 adult males who were convicted in Massachusetts of sexual assault against a child. None of the men had an exclusively homosexual adult sexual orientation. 83 (47%) were classified as "fixated;" 70 others (40%) were classified as regressed adult heterosexuals; the remaining 22 (13%) were classified as regressed adult bisexuals. Of the last group, Groth and Birnbaum observed that "in their adult relationships they engaged in sex on occasion with men as well as with women. However, in no case did this attraction to men exceed their preference for women....There were no men who were primarily sexually attracted

Other researchers have taken different approaches, but have similarly failed to find a connection between homosexuality and child molestation. Dr. Carole Jenny and her colleagues reviewed 352 medical charts, representing all of the sexually abused children seen in the emergency room or child abuse clinic of a Denver children's hospital during a one-year period (from July 1, 1991 to June 30, 1992). The molester was a gay or lesbian adult in fewer than 1% in which an adult molester could be identified only 2 of the 269 cases (Jenny et al., 1994).

In yet another approach to studying adult sexual attraction to children, some Canadian researchers observed how homosexual and heterosexual adult men responded to slides of males and females of various ages (child, pubescent, and mature adult). All of the research subjects were first screened to ensure that they preferred physically mature sexual partners. In some of the slides shown to subjects, the model was clothed; in others, he or she was nude. The slides were accompanied by audio recordings. The recordings paired with the nude models described an imaginary sexual interaction between the model and the subject. The recordings paired with the pictures of clothed models described the model engaging in neutral activities (e.g., swimming). To measure sexual arousal, changes in the subjects' penis volume were monitored while they watched the slides and listened to the audiotapes. The researchers found that homosexual males responded no more to male children than heterosexual males responded to female children (Freund et al., 1989).

Are homosexual adults in general sexually attracted to children and are preadolescent children at greater risk of molestation from homosexual adults than from heterosexual adults? There is no reason to believe so. The research to date all points to there being no significant relationship between a homosexual lifestyle and child molestation. There appears to be practically no reportage of sexual molestation of girls by lesbian adults, and the adult male who sexually molests young boys is not likely to be homosexual (Groth & Gary, 1982, p. 147).

http://psychology.ucdavis.edu/rainbow/HTML/facts_molestation.html

Andreusz · Oct 31, 2008

Polycarp_fan said:
I'll get banned if I answer that truthfully. But it has to do with the rebirth of ancient Cretan and Greek cultures.

Ancient Cretan culture? Yes, I'd love to reinstitute the bull-dance. I just never relaized it till now.

David Brider · Oct 31, 2008

jmverville said:
OK: rephrase.

Lustful thoughts. Lusty, sexy, super sexy sexually oriented 'having sexual intercourse' 'making whoopee' thoughts.

Ah, right. So you didn't actually mean "sexual attraction", you meant "lustful thoughts". Fair 'nuff.

Just to clarify, how do you feel that's relevant to either this thread topic in particular, or to homosexuality in general?

MarcusHill · Oct 31, 2008

I'm annoyed that, despite the fact that I've done a load of arguing for gay rights, I can't get a copy of the Agenda. I'm beginning to suspect it's discrimination just because I'm straight.

Sycophant · Oct 31, 2008

jmverville said:
OK: rephrase.

Lustful thoughts. Lusty, sexy, super sexy sexually oriented 'having sexual intercourse' 'making whoopee' thoughts.

Just a quick diversion then...

These thoughts, or feelings even, do you choose to have them - look at a woman and think to yourself "right, now I will think sexual things about her"? Did you choose, at say, around the age of 12-14 that you'd have those sorts of thoughts about various women?

I suspect (actually I know) the answer to both is "nope, that's just what happens". Now, swap woman for man, and you're gay. That's it. That's what gay is.

It's not having sex with other men (or women in the case of Lesbians, obviously) - it is having feelings and attraction toward members of the opposite sex. It would run the gamut from "hey, he's got really nice lips" to "oh my god I can totally picture myself making love to him right here on this bus." Exactly the same range of thoughts you and I have toward various women.

That's what gets me about all of this stuff. Talk of gay lifestyle and agendas and stuff. There's no club. Homosexuals are exactly like you and I, but instead of finding their eyes lingering on some attractive member of the opposite sex as they walk past, it's a member of the same sex.

What unites GLBT people together is not some secretive mission to disrupt the moral fabric of society, but simply the desire to avoid judgment and be around people who understand them.

Imagine living as a Christian in a country where there was another predominant religion, and where Christians were seen as second class citizens or denied certain rights or opportunities. You would seek others the same as yourself, and eventually you'd probably start to seek change for your group as a whole. Not to convert the whole country to your view, but just to be able to be who you wanted to be... And religion is a choice.

No one who has any real-world experience with gay people can seriously believe they have some universal ulterior motive, or even that there is such a thing as a singular homosexual 'them'. They are just people like anyone else, with probably almost exactly the same day-to-day concerns and issues as anyone else.

Andreusz · Oct 31, 2008

^ Excellently put, Sycophant. This is the message I've been trying to get across to the extreme fundamentalists on this forum, but they don't seem capable of understanding it.

OphidiaPhile · Oct 31, 2008

Sycophant said:
Just a quick diversion then...

These thoughts, or feelings even, do you choose to have them - look at a woman and think to yourself "right, now I will think sexual things about her"? Did you choose, at say, around the age of 12-14 that you'd have those sorts of thoughts about various women?

I suspect (actually I know) the answer to both is "nope, that's just what happens". Now, swap woman for man, and you're gay. That's it. That's what gay is.

It's not having sex with other men (or women in the case of Lesbians, obviously) - it is having feelings and attraction toward members of the opposite sex. It would run the gamut from "hey, he's got really nice lips" to "oh my god I can totally picture myself making love to him right here on this bus." Exactly the same range of thoughts you and I have toward various women.

That's what gets me about all of this stuff. Talk of gay lifestyle and agendas and stuff. There's no club. Homosexuals are exactly like you and I, but instead of finding their eyes lingering on some attractive member of the opposite sex as they walk past, it's a member of the same sex.

What unites GLBT people together is not some secretive mission to disrupt the moral fabric of society, but simply the desire to avoid judgment and be around people who understand them.

Imagine living as a Christian in a country where there was another predominant religion, and where Christians were seen as second class citizens or denied certain rights or opportunities. You would seek others the same as yourself, and eventually you'd probably start to seek change for your group as a whole. Not to convert the whole country to your view, but just to be able to be who you wanted to be... And religion is a choice.

No one who has any real-world experience with gay people can seriously believe they have some universal ulterior motive, or even that there is such a thing as a singular homosexual 'them'. They are just people like anyone else, with probably almost exactly the same day-to-day concerns and issues as anyone else.

You put it better than I could ever hope to, cheers.

OllieFranz · Oct 31, 2008

Sycophant said:
Just a quick diversion then...

These thoughts, or feelings even, do you choose to have them - look at a woman and think to yourself "right, now I will think sexual things about her"? Did you choose, at say, around the age of 12-14 that you'd have those sorts of thoughts about various women?

I suspect (actually I know) the answer to both is "nope, that's just what happens". Now, swap woman for man, and you're gay. That's it. That's what gay is.

It's not having sex with other men (or women in the case of Lesbians, obviously) - it is having feelings and attraction toward members of the opposite sex. It would run the gamut from "hey, he's got really nice lips" to "oh my god I can totally picture myself making love to him right here on this bus." Exactly the same range of thoughts you and I have toward various women.

That's what gets me about all of this stuff. Talk of gay lifestyle and agendas and stuff. There's no club. Homosexuals are exactly like you and I, but instead of finding their eyes lingering on some attractive member of the opposite sex as they walk past, it's a member of the same sex.

What unites GLBT people together is not some secretive mission to disrupt the moral fabric of society, but simply the desire to avoid judgment and be around people who understand them.

Imagine living as a Christian in a country where there was another predominant religion, and where Christians were seen as second class citizens or denied certain rights or opportunities. You would seek others the same as yourself, and eventually you'd probably start to seek change for your group as a whole. Not to convert the whole country to your view, but just to be able to be who you wanted to be... And religion is a choice.

No one who has any real-world experience with gay people can seriously believe they have some universal ulterior motive, or even that there is such a thing as a singular homosexual 'them'. They are just people like anyone else, with probably almost exactly the same day-to-day concerns and issues as anyone else.

QFT

PastorJim · Oct 31, 2008

EnemyPartyII said:
I am both a Christian AND homosexual.

Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law. 5 And ye know that he was manifested to take away our sins; and in him is no sin. 6 Whosoever abideth in him sinneth not: whosoever sinneth hath not seen him, neither known him. 7 Little children, let no man deceive you: he that doeth righteousness is righteous, even as he is righteous. 8 He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil. 9 Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God. 10 In this the children of God are manifest, and the children of the devil: whosoever doeth not righteousness is not of God, neither he that loveth not his brother. - 1 John 3:4-10

((And, yes, I already know that I'm going to get a PM telling me that it's flaming to cite this passage of scripture.))

SallyNow · Oct 31, 2008

gwenmead said:
I'll admit to a long-held puzzlement as to how someone can be both gay and Christian at the same time; but then I came from a very literalist Christian background, from a church community which found homosexuality distinctly unBiblical and thus framed it as a "gay vs. Christian" thing much of the time.

Sometimes it can be tricky to remember that not every Christian is like that; not every believer will turn homosexuality into such a divisive, violent issue. Some will adopt a more moderate "everyone is a sinner anyway" attitude, others don't find homosexuality incompatible with Christianity at all.

So I suppose it really all just depends on how you look at it, and what brand of Christian you are.

See, I grew up in a community that didn't have such a limited view of Christianity or the Bible. I grew up in a community that embraced the overall message of the Bible, that realized the poetry and symbolism and methaphors in the Bible, and most of all realized the importance of the four Gospels, that encourage love and inclusion of outcasts. Also, a community that realized some rules had past thousands of years ago from usage, and were meant for specific communities, not the world as a whole.

So, I very rarely heard of any problems with people being both gay and Christian. It was a non-issue.

PastorJim · Oct 31, 2008

HappyHealthyHolyRoller said:
Gays can be Christians; in fact, quite obedient ones.

Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law. 5 And ye know that he was manifested to take away our sins; and in him is no sin. 6 Whosoever abideth in him sinneth not: whosoever sinneth hath not seen him, neither known him. 7 Little children, let no man deceive you: he that doeth righteousness is righteous, even as he is righteous. 8 He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil. 9 Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God. 10 In this the children of God are manifest, and the children of the devil: whosoever doeth not righteousness is not of God, neither he that loveth not his brother. - 1 John 3:4-10

PastorJim · Oct 31, 2008

jmverville said:
You can be a Christian and a homosexual.

You can be a sinner and a Christian.

Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law. 5 And ye know that he was manifested to take away our sins; and in him is no sin. 6 Whosoever abideth in him sinneth not: whosoever sinneth hath not seen him, neither known him. 7 Little children, let no man deceive you: he that doeth righteousness is righteous, even as he is righteous. 8 He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil. 9 Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God. 10 In this the children of God are manifest, and the children of the devil: whosoever doeth not righteousness is not of God, neither he that loveth not his brother. 1 John 3:4-10

Homosexuality is plainly stated in the Bible as a sin; just as there are people who admit to their alcoholism and are Christians, they must certainly strive to contain and control their sinful indulgence.

The obvious difference is that homosexuality is a sin, alcoholism isn't.

PastorJim · Oct 31, 2008

gwenmead said:
If I had to guess, I'd say it's "full and equal protection under the law."

But really, what do I know.

They already have that. In fact, they have preferential treatment.

For instance, if a homosexual is fired from a job, they can claim it's because they were homosexual and sue the employer. If they're assaulted, then the assault is considered even more serious because it's a "hate crime", where as, if a straight person is assaulted, it's just regular old assault.

David Brider · Oct 31, 2008

PastorJim said:
The obvious difference is that homosexuality is a sin, alcoholism isn't.

Um...nope. There are a very few Biblical passages that are widely interpreted as declaring male-male sex to be a sin, but - except for a few recent version which use the word "homosexual" as a dubious translation of Paul's arsenokoites - you won't find any that refer to homosexuality per se as a sin.

David.

David Brider · Oct 31, 2008

PastorJim said:
They already have that. In fact, they have preferential treatment.

For instance, if a homosexual is fired from a job, they can claim it's because they were homosexual and sue the employer. If they're assaulted, then the assault is considered even more serious because it's a "hate crime", where as, if a straight person is assaulted, it's just regular old assault.

No - the homosexual would, in both instances, have to prove that their sexual orientation formed part or whole of the motivation behind their firing or assault.

PastorJim · Oct 31, 2008

David Brider said:
Um...nope. There are a very few Biblical passages that are widely interpreted as declaring male-male sex to be a sin

Then it's a sin.

David Brider · Oct 31, 2008

PastorJim said:
Then it's a sin.

male/male sex and homosexuality aren't the same thing, though.

You do understand the difference between sexual orientation and sexual activity, don't you?

David.

Polycarp_fan · Oct 31, 2008

OphidiaPhile said:
So lets look at the Christian assertion that Gay men are pedophiles and want to indoctrinate children. We have a study from UC Davis.

excerpt

Using the fixated-regressed distinction, Groth and Birnbaum (1978) studied 175 adult males who were convicted in Massachusetts of sexual assault against a child. None of the men had an exclusively homosexual adult sexual orientation. 83 (47%) were classified as "fixated;" 70 others (40%) were classified as regressed adult heterosexuals; the remaining 22 (13%) were classified as regressed adult bisexuals. Of the last group, Groth and Birnbaum observed that "in their adult relationships they engaged in sex on occasion with men as well as with women. However, in no case did this attraction to men exceed their preference for women....There were no men who were primarily sexually attracted

Other researchers have taken different approaches, but have similarly failed to find a connection between homosexuality and child molestation. Dr. Carole Jenny and her colleagues reviewed 352 medical charts, representing all of the sexually abused children seen in the emergency room or child abuse clinic of a Denver children's hospital during a one-year period (from July 1, 1991 to June 30, 1992). The molester was a gay or lesbian adult in fewer than 1% in which an adult molester could be identified only 2 of the 269 cases (Jenny et al., 1994).

In yet another approach to studying adult sexual attraction to children, some Canadian researchers observed how homosexual and heterosexual adult men responded to slides of males and females of various ages (child, pubescent, and mature adult). All of the research subjects were first screened to ensure that they preferred physically mature sexual partners. In some of the slides shown to subjects, the model was clothed; in others, he or she was nude. The slides were accompanied by audio recordings. The recordings paired with the nude models described an imaginary sexual interaction between the model and the subject. The recordings paired with the pictures of clothed models described the model engaging in neutral activities (e.g., swimming). To measure sexual arousal, changes in the subjects' penis volume were monitored while they watched the slides and listened to the audiotapes. The researchers found that homosexual males responded no more to male children than heterosexual males responded to female children (Freund et al., 1989).

Are homosexual adults in general sexually attracted to children and are preadolescent children at greater risk of molestation from homosexual adults than from heterosexual adults? There is no reason to believe so. The research to date all points to there being no significant relationship between a homosexual lifestyle and child molestation. There appears to be practically no reportage of sexual molestation of girls by lesbian adults, and the adult male who sexually molests young boys is not likely to be homosexual (Groth & Gary, 1982, p. 147).

http://psychology.ucdavis.edu/rainbow/HTML/facts_molestation.html

From the thread on hating Christians:

EnemyPartyII said:
I'm still confused about PC-F's stance.

EnemyPartyII said:
How can a homosexual trick a heterosexual into forgetting they are a heterosexual for an evening?

I'm homosexual. I admit it... but I tell ya, even though a number of heterosexuals have at times tried to seduce me, I've just never accidentally forgotten I was homosexual, and accidentally been seduced by a hetero... so how does the reverse option work?

selfinflikted said:
I agree. If a person wants to have sex with another person of the same sex, then they are at least bisexual, if not gay. Why on earth would an exclusively heterosexual person have sex with a person of the same sex? That just doesn't add up.

PastorJim · Oct 31, 2008

David Brider said:
male/male sex and homosexuality aren't the same thing, though.

You do understand the difference between sexual orientation and sexual activity, don't you?

David.

Sure, I understand the difference. But I think it's awfully naive to believe that homosexuals don't act on that orientation.

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