Man is it hard to type with my foot in my mouth. I've been varnishing my dining room table tonight, the fumes must have got to me.
Sorry Julie!
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Rich Man and Lazarus
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Man is it hard to type with my foot in my mouth. I've been varnishing my dining room table tonight, the fumes must have got to me.
Sorry Julie!
Adam
Could you "summarizes" your points and conclusions.
While I agree that parables are for teaching, not every passage in the NT in which Jesus used a metaphor or allegory is also a parable.
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No anthony I will not, I have taken great effort and time to produce this study. It is the summary and conclusion!
If you do not wish to read it, then fine, but if you do not, please don't waste everyones time talking about a position you obviously aren't fully aware of. Read it and you might become aware of some things. You keep disagreeing with something which you haven't read, that is very rude and inconsiderate to someone who has worked so hard to write it.
If you do not wish to read it, then fine, but if you do not, please don't waste everyones time talking about a position you obviously aren't fully aware of. Read it and you might become aware of some things. You keep disagreeing with something which you haven't read, that is very rude and inconsiderate to someone who has worked so hard to write it.
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Adam
I not disagreeing with you I made a simple comment on the nature of a parable. It was a comment, it wasn't doctrine or law. People are free to look at it either way.
As far as a summary or conclusion. When someone write/post two very long posts, filled with dozens of scripture references, intermixed with comments, it makes it difficult to sort out the message and conclusion. Why don't you think nobody has commented on the "meat" of your post? It's too much to digest, no matter how much time and effort you have put into it.
Without some sort of summary, there is nothing to comment on, other than to say that you did a nice job of writing something.
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This has to be a parable. If it's a true, literal story, then we have the following conclusions from it:
1. You go to hell if you are rich, and heaven if you are poor. There is no mention of any other condition of where the people go in this part, and what does verse 25 mean otherwise? Why would Abraham try to tell the Rich Man that "you received what was good in your lifetime while Lazarus likewise recieved what was bad" if that was completely irrelevant? Was that supposed to console him?
2. People in hell can see people in heaven, and speak to them.
3. If you try to talk to Abraham when you are in hell, he will respond to you (or maybe just if you're special?)
4. Poor people (or saved people, if you are interpreting it the usual way), go to "Abraham's Bosom" rather than heaven. If this is supposed to be heaven, why didn't Jesus just say that?
This parable follows directly off of two previous saying of Jesus in Luke:
6:20 "Blessed are you who are poor, for the kingdom of God is yours."
6:24 "But woe to those who are rich, for you have received your consolation."
If Rich Man & Lazarus is a true story, then are all the stores in chapter 16 true stories? None of them are marked explicitly as parables.
Finally, why is it so important that this not be a parable? It's not like this is the only place in the Bible that speaks about hell or torment.
-Chris
1. You go to hell if you are rich, and heaven if you are poor. There is no mention of any other condition of where the people go in this part, and what does verse 25 mean otherwise? Why would Abraham try to tell the Rich Man that "you received what was good in your lifetime while Lazarus likewise recieved what was bad" if that was completely irrelevant? Was that supposed to console him?
2. People in hell can see people in heaven, and speak to them.
3. If you try to talk to Abraham when you are in hell, he will respond to you (or maybe just if you're special?)
4. Poor people (or saved people, if you are interpreting it the usual way), go to "Abraham's Bosom" rather than heaven. If this is supposed to be heaven, why didn't Jesus just say that?
This parable follows directly off of two previous saying of Jesus in Luke:
6:20 "Blessed are you who are poor, for the kingdom of God is yours."
6:24 "But woe to those who are rich, for you have received your consolation."
If Rich Man & Lazarus is a true story, then are all the stores in chapter 16 true stories? None of them are marked explicitly as parables.
Finally, why is it so important that this not be a parable? It's not like this is the only place in the Bible that speaks about hell or torment.
-Chris
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I don't know you tell me. I was only making a comment, which appears to have turn into a full blown debate. While Adam's Term Paper goes without comment.
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Hi. I believe it is a "Covenantle" Parable and perhaps one of the most important "prophetic" parables in the NC of the Bible.
In my view, it can only be interpreted using the OC of the Bible and using Galatian 4 concerning the alleghorical 2 Covenants Paul mentioned. The Jews especially should read and study this one parable I believe. Thoughts?
And it came to pass, that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels into Abraham's bosom: the rich man also died, and was buried. And in hell he lift up his eyes, being in torments, and sees Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom" (Lk. 16:22-23). The language is highly symbolic and the deaths of both the rich man (Judah) and the beggar (the nations) represent a fundamental Change in their condition and status. It does not say that Lazarus was buried - it says that Lazarus was carried to the bosom of Abraham but the rich man was buried, never to become the favored nation of God in their own right again. I want to emphasize this, because it is a very essential point. Lazarus was never buried, he was carried away to a bosom. But the rich man, it says, died AND WAS BURIED. Never again would the kingdom of Judah become the chosen nation of the Lord in their own right. Not until Judah is joined unto the Lord and His sanctified people in Christ Jesus will they ever be recognized as the people of God.
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[size=+1]In this story, and it is interpreted as factual by many early church fathers, Jesus named a specific historical person, Abraham, something NEVER done in any legitimate parable. He named another specific person, Lazarus, also NEVER done in any legitimate parable.
Jesus never identifies the story as a parable, allegorical, symbolic, etc. Jesus never explains the "hidden" meaning of the story. Jesus always explained his parables if the meaning was not immediately understood.
In all legitimate parables Jesus employed every day, common things/occurrences to illustrate either unknown or misunderstood spiritual truths. IF this is a parable it is the only one that uses things/experiences totally unknown to his audience,i.e. death and the after life, to illustrate something.
What exactly is the point of the story? Google on "rich man Lazarus" and you will see dozens and dozens of websites all with different explanations and all saying, "We have the true, truth about this "parable" anybody who disagrees with us is wrong"
If Abraham was not in a specific place, and did not speak the specific words that Jesus quoted, then Jesus is a liar.
Irenaeus Against Heresies Book II Chapter XXXIV.-Souls Can Be Recognised in the Separate State, and are Immortal Although They Once Had a Beginning.
Ireneaeus, 120-202 AD, was a disciple of Polycarp, who was a disciple of John.
1. The Lord has taught with very great fulness, that souls not only continue to exist, not by passing from body to body, but that they preserve the same form [in their separate state] as the body had to which they were adapted, and that they remember the deeds which they did in this state of existence, and from which they have now ceased,-in that narrative which is recorded respecting the rich man and that Lazarus who found repose in the bosom of Abraham. In this account He states that Dives [=Latin for rich] knew Lazarus after death, and Abraham in like manner, and that each one of these persons continued in his own proper position, and that [Dives] requested Lazarus to be sent to relieve him-[Lazarus], on whom he did not [formerly] bestow even the crumbs [which fell] from his table. [He tells us] also of the answer given by Abraham, who was acquainted not only with what respected himself, but Dives also, and who enjoined those who did not wish to come into that place of torment to believe Moses and the prophets, and to receive the preaching of Him who was to rise again from the dead. By these things, then, it is plainly declared that souls continue to exist that they do not pass from body to body, that they possess the form of a man, so that they may be recognised, and retain the memory of things in this world; moreover, that the gift of prophecy was possessed by Abraham, and that each class of souls] receives a habitation such as it has deserved, even before the judgment.
http://ccel.org/fathers2/ANF-01/anf01-59.htm#P7262_1923873
Tertullian - 9. A TREATISE ON THE SOUL
CHAPTER 7 [145-220 AD]
THE SOULS CORPOREALITY
DEMONSTRATED OUT OF THE GOSPELS
So far as the philosophers are concerned, we have said enough. As for our own teachers, indeed, our reference to them is ex abundanti a surplusage of authority: in the Gospel itself they will be found to have the clearest evidence for the corporeal nature of the soul. In hell the soul of a certain man is in torment, punished in flames, suffering excruciating thirst, and imploring from the finger of a happier soul, for his tongue, the solace of a drop of water. Do you suppose that this end of the blessed poor man and the miserable rich man is only imaginary? Then why the name of Lazarus in this narrative, if the circumstance is not in (the category of) a real occurrence? But even if it is to be regarded as imaginary, it will still be a testimony to truth and reality. For unless the soul possessed corporeality, the image of a soul could not possibly contain a finger of a bodily substance; nor would the Scripture feign a statement about the limbs of a body, if these had no existence. But what is that which is removed to Hades after the separation of the body; which is there detained; which is reserved until the day of judgment; to which Christ also, on dying, descended? I imagine it is the souls of the patriarchs. But wherefore (all this), if the soul is nothing in its subterranean abode? For nothing it certainly is, if it is not a bodily substance. For whatever is incorporeal is incapable of being kept and guarded in any way; it is also exempt from either punishment or refreshment. That must be a body, by which punishment and refreshment can be experienced. Of this I shall treat more fully in a more fitting place. Therefore, whatever amount of punishment or refreshment the soul tastes in Hades, in its prison or lodging, in the fire or in Abrahams bosom, it gives proof thereby of its own corporeality. For an incorporeal thing suffers nothing, not having that which makes it capable of suffering; else, if it has such capacity, it must be a bodily substance. For in as far as every corporeal thing is capable of suffering, in so far is that which is capable of suffering also corporeal.
Cyprian - EPISTLE 54 TO CORNELIUS, CONCERNING FORTUNATUS AND FELICISSIMUS, OR AGAINST THE HERETICS [200-258 AD]
By his mouth, therefore, and by his words, is every one at once betrayed; and whether he has Christ in his heart, or Antichrist, is discerned in his speaking, according to what the Lord says in His Gospel, O generation of vipers, how can ye, being evil, speak good things? for out of the abundance of the heart the mouth speaketh. A good man out of the good treasure bringeth forth good things; 703 and an evil man out of the evil treasure bringeth forth evil things. Whence also that rich sinner who implores help from Lazarus, then laid in Abrahams bosom, and established in a place of comfort, while he, writhing in torments, is consumed by the heats of burning flame, suffers most punishment of all parts of his body in his mouth and his tongue, because doubtless in his mouth and his tongue he had most sinned.
Methodius - A SYNOPSIS OF SOME APOSTOLIC
WORDS FROM THE SAME DISCOURSE. [A.D. 260-312].
XIX. He says that Origen holds these opinions which he refutes. And there may be a doubt concerning Lazarus and the rich man. The simpler persons think that these things were spoken as though both were receiving their due for the things which they had done in life in their bodies; but the more accurate think that, since no one is left in life after the resurrection, these things do not happen at the resurrection. For the rich man says: I have five brethren;... lest they also come into this place of torment, send Lazarus, that he may tell them of those things which are here. And, therefore, if we ask respecting the tongue, and the finger, and Abrahams bosom, and the reclining there, it may perhaps be that the soul receives in the change a form similar in appearance to its gross and 718 earthly body. If, then, any one of those who have fallen asleep is recorded as having appeared, in the same way he has been seen in the form which he had when he was in the flesh. Besides, when Samuel appeared, it is clear that, being seen, he was clothed in a body; and this must especially be admitted, if we are pressed by arguments which prove that the essence of the soul is incorporeal, and is manifested by itself. But the rich man in torment, and the poor man who was comforted in the bosom of Abraham, are said, the one to be punished in Hades, and the other to be comforted in Abrahams bosom, before the appearing of the Savior, and before the end of the world, and therefore before the resurrection; teaching that now already, at the change, the soul rises a body.
[/size]Ireneaeus, 120-202 AD, was a disciple of Polycarp, who was a disciple of John.
1. The Lord has taught with very great fulness, that souls not only continue to exist, not by passing from body to body, but that they preserve the same form [in their separate state] as the body had to which they were adapted, and that they remember the deeds which they did in this state of existence, and from which they have now ceased,-in that narrative which is recorded respecting the rich man and that Lazarus who found repose in the bosom of Abraham. In this account He states that Dives [=Latin for rich] knew Lazarus after death, and Abraham in like manner, and that each one of these persons continued in his own proper position, and that [Dives] requested Lazarus to be sent to relieve him-[Lazarus], on whom he did not [formerly] bestow even the crumbs [which fell] from his table. [He tells us] also of the answer given by Abraham, who was acquainted not only with what respected himself, but Dives also, and who enjoined those who did not wish to come into that place of torment to believe Moses and the prophets, and to receive the preaching of Him who was to rise again from the dead. By these things, then, it is plainly declared that souls continue to exist that they do not pass from body to body, that they possess the form of a man, so that they may be recognised, and retain the memory of things in this world; moreover, that the gift of prophecy was possessed by Abraham, and that each class of souls] receives a habitation such as it has deserved, even before the judgment.
http://ccel.org/fathers2/ANF-01/anf01-59.htm#P7262_1923873
Tertullian - 9. A TREATISE ON THE SOUL
CHAPTER 7 [145-220 AD]
THE SOULS CORPOREALITY
DEMONSTRATED OUT OF THE GOSPELS
So far as the philosophers are concerned, we have said enough. As for our own teachers, indeed, our reference to them is ex abundanti a surplusage of authority: in the Gospel itself they will be found to have the clearest evidence for the corporeal nature of the soul. In hell the soul of a certain man is in torment, punished in flames, suffering excruciating thirst, and imploring from the finger of a happier soul, for his tongue, the solace of a drop of water. Do you suppose that this end of the blessed poor man and the miserable rich man is only imaginary? Then why the name of Lazarus in this narrative, if the circumstance is not in (the category of) a real occurrence? But even if it is to be regarded as imaginary, it will still be a testimony to truth and reality. For unless the soul possessed corporeality, the image of a soul could not possibly contain a finger of a bodily substance; nor would the Scripture feign a statement about the limbs of a body, if these had no existence. But what is that which is removed to Hades after the separation of the body; which is there detained; which is reserved until the day of judgment; to which Christ also, on dying, descended? I imagine it is the souls of the patriarchs. But wherefore (all this), if the soul is nothing in its subterranean abode? For nothing it certainly is, if it is not a bodily substance. For whatever is incorporeal is incapable of being kept and guarded in any way; it is also exempt from either punishment or refreshment. That must be a body, by which punishment and refreshment can be experienced. Of this I shall treat more fully in a more fitting place. Therefore, whatever amount of punishment or refreshment the soul tastes in Hades, in its prison or lodging, in the fire or in Abrahams bosom, it gives proof thereby of its own corporeality. For an incorporeal thing suffers nothing, not having that which makes it capable of suffering; else, if it has such capacity, it must be a bodily substance. For in as far as every corporeal thing is capable of suffering, in so far is that which is capable of suffering also corporeal.
Cyprian - EPISTLE 54 TO CORNELIUS, CONCERNING FORTUNATUS AND FELICISSIMUS, OR AGAINST THE HERETICS [200-258 AD]
By his mouth, therefore, and by his words, is every one at once betrayed; and whether he has Christ in his heart, or Antichrist, is discerned in his speaking, according to what the Lord says in His Gospel, O generation of vipers, how can ye, being evil, speak good things? for out of the abundance of the heart the mouth speaketh. A good man out of the good treasure bringeth forth good things; 703 and an evil man out of the evil treasure bringeth forth evil things. Whence also that rich sinner who implores help from Lazarus, then laid in Abrahams bosom, and established in a place of comfort, while he, writhing in torments, is consumed by the heats of burning flame, suffers most punishment of all parts of his body in his mouth and his tongue, because doubtless in his mouth and his tongue he had most sinned.
Methodius - A SYNOPSIS OF SOME APOSTOLIC
WORDS FROM THE SAME DISCOURSE. [A.D. 260-312].
XIX. He says that Origen holds these opinions which he refutes. And there may be a doubt concerning Lazarus and the rich man. The simpler persons think that these things were spoken as though both were receiving their due for the things which they had done in life in their bodies; but the more accurate think that, since no one is left in life after the resurrection, these things do not happen at the resurrection. For the rich man says: I have five brethren;... lest they also come into this place of torment, send Lazarus, that he may tell them of those things which are here. And, therefore, if we ask respecting the tongue, and the finger, and Abrahams bosom, and the reclining there, it may perhaps be that the soul receives in the change a form similar in appearance to its gross and 718 earthly body. If, then, any one of those who have fallen asleep is recorded as having appeared, in the same way he has been seen in the form which he had when he was in the flesh. Besides, when Samuel appeared, it is clear that, being seen, he was clothed in a body; and this must especially be admitted, if we are pressed by arguments which prove that the essence of the soul is incorporeal, and is manifested by itself. But the rich man in torment, and the poor man who was comforted in the bosom of Abraham, are said, the one to be punished in Hades, and the other to be comforted in Abrahams bosom, before the appearing of the Savior, and before the end of the world, and therefore before the resurrection; teaching that now already, at the change, the soul rises a body.
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You say tomato, I say tomatoe. You say parable, I say:
"All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:" -2 Tim. 3:16
To each his own.
God Bless
Till all are one.
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