For Christians who say that they know God

hamba2han · Oct 28, 2008

Just to clarify here that Muslims revere the companions of the Prophet Muhammad (pbuh) because of the absolute faith and dedication that they had to live their lives 100% in accordance with the commands of the Lord and subsequently their unhesitant willingness to sacrifice just about everything they had for the sake of their Creator.

The Qur'an has this to say about them:

"And the foremost to embrace Islaam of the Muhaajireen and the Ansaar and also those who followed them in goodness, Allaah is pleased with them and they are pleased with Him. Allaah has prepared for them gardens under which rivers flow (Paradise) to dwell therein forever. That is the supreme success." .. [Surah At-Tawbah: 100]

The Prophet Muhammad (pbuh) said: "The best of mankind is my generation, then those that come after them, then those that come after them." Reported by Al-Bukhaaree, Muslim and others from the report of 'Imraan Ibn Husayn and 'Abdullaah Ibn Mas'ood, may Allaah be pleased with both of them.

In Biblical terms, they were indeed the 'tens of thousands of saints' who were blessed by their Lord.

LittleLambofJesus · Oct 28, 2008

Jefell said:
I am one of them.

2Co 13:13 All the saints send their greetings.

Rev 17:6 I saw that the woman was drunk with the blood of the saints, the blood of those who bore testimony to Jesus.
Muslims can not be saints.. you have no way to wash your robe.
Without Jesus Christ as your Lord & Savior.. you have no way to be relinquished of your sin.

Jesus is the Gate.

With Love,
- Jefell

Washed......bathed.......blood of the "lambkin"......REPENT! :angel:

1 Corinthians 6:11 And these some ye were. But ye are washed/bathed/apelousasqe <628> (5668), but ye are hallowed, but ye were justified/edikaiwqhte <1344> (5681) in the name of the Lord Jesus and in the Spirit of the God of us.

Revelation 7:14 And I have said to Him: "lord of me, thou hast known". And He said to me "these are the ones coming out of the tribulation, the great and they wash/plunge/eplunan <4150> (5656) the robes of them, and they whiten them in the blood of the Lambkin".

http://christianforums.com/showthread.php?t=7245442
The "lambkin" in Revelation and John 21 question

Jefell · Oct 28, 2008

allah is a false god. muhammad took all of the statues, idols and false gods from the false religions around him and put them together.. called them allah. Even the name is allah is blasphemy to the LORD, YHWH.

The very name allah is offensive to GOD.. so what is the rest of islam?

why dont you give us the origin and background behind the name allah?

If you believe muhammad and Jesus were both prophets.. using the morals that GOD gave you, why don't you compare the lives of them both and see who would be a better example to follow? You can't even fathom the thought because you are a slave to islam... the doctrine of the devil. Christians are free. I thank my Almighty GOD for giving His only begotton Son so that a sinner like me should not perish. I pray GOD reaches into your life and you find His Son Jesus Christ. I pray you escape the mental chains of islam and find your way free. Jesus is the Gate.

PRAISE GOD!! C H R I S T I A N S A R E F R E E

GOD BLESS

With Love,
- Jefell

Fuzzy · Oct 28, 2008

Jefell said:
PRAISE GOD!! C H R I S T I A N S A R E F R E E

Are they? They adhere (with varying degrees of success) to a morality and set of rules laid down by a deity in hopes of gaining salvation.

LittleLambofJesus · Oct 28, 2008

Fuzzy said:
Are they? They adhere (with varying degrees of success) to a morality and set of rules laid down by a deity in hopes of gaining salvation.

Heck I am still trying to understand the "trinity"

http://christianforums.com/showthread.php?t=7301432
Is belief in the Trinity necessary for Salvation?

Luzeiro · Oct 28, 2008

hamba2han said:
Can you kindly inform who are the "ten thousands of saints" who came (or will come?) with the Lord as prophesied in the following verses of the New Testament:

"Now Enoch, the seventh from Adam, prophesied about these men also, saying, Behold, the Lord comes with ten thousands of His saints, to execute judgment on all, to convict all who are ungodly among them of all their ungodly deeds which they have committed in an ungodly way, and of all the harsh things which ungodly sinners have spoken against Him." .. (Jude 1:14-15)

Such is the importance and significance of their status in the eyes of God Almighty, I would say that if you do not know who these ten thousand saints/holy ones are, then this would certainly imply that you also would really not know who the Lord is.

In biblical language, numbers are often spoken for the finite mind to have an idea of how vast and endless God is and what He has. One-third of the created angels fell from heaven when they sided with Lucifer when He rebelled. How many are one-third?

When Jesus returns in all His glory, He will bring heavenly inhabitants with Him .... ten thousands???? That is something we can fathom; how many He will really bring, is something we don't need to know. The only really important thing is that HE WILL COME AGAIN. And every eye shall see it, including yours.

Behold, He is coming with clouds, and every eye will see Him, even they who pierced Him. And all the tribes of the earth will mourn because of Him. Even so, Amen. Revelation 1:7

You will mourn, I will not. You don't have to mourn; the way to HIM is open until then.

Luzeiro · Oct 28, 2008

Fuzzy said:
Are they? They adhere (with varying degrees of success) to a morality and set of rules laid down by a deity in hopes of gaining salvation.

What do you gain by following a set of rules laid down by the government where you reside? Freedom? Or, is freedom really free?

Luzeiro · Oct 28, 2008

hamba2han said:
You do NOT have a clue who these "ten thousands of saints/holy ones" are and you just cannot bring yourself to admit it, can you?

Again, one should never forget that these 'saints' are the real deal because they have been acknowledged and blessed by God Almighty Himself as stated in the the Biblical verses which I have quoted.

Muslims WANT to be like these 'saints' and so we are asking Christians --> Who exactly are these "ten thousands of saints"?

I don't know the name of each one of them, 'cause if I am supposed to know, they would be listed in scripture. The bible tells you who they are; they are inhabitants of heaven right this minit with Jesus. You want to be like them, drop everything and run to the nearest Christian and ask him for help to become one. Until then, you speculate and don't mind risking really becoming one of them, because you WILL NOT be one of them without Jesus.

LittleLambofJesus · Oct 28, 2008

When Jesus returns in all His glory, He will bring heavenly inhabitants with Him .... ten thousands???? That is something we can fathom; how many He will really bring, is something we don't need to know. The only really important thing is that HE WILL COME AGAIN. And every eye shall see it, including yours.

Behold, He is coming with clouds, and every eye will see Him, even they who pierced Him. And all the tribes of the earth will mourn because of Him. Even so, Amen. Revelation 1:7

You will mourn, I will not. You don't have to mourn; the way to HIM is open until then.

Greetings. I believe it will only be the Jews wailing when they see Him........ :angel:

Matt 24:30 "And then shall be appearing the Sign of the Son of Man in the heaven, and then all the tribes of the land will wail/koyontai <2875> (5695), and they shall be seeing the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and glory, much. [Reve 1:7]

Revelation 1:7 Behold! He is coming with the clouds, and shall be seeing Him every eye, even who any Him they pierce. And shall be wailing/koyontai <2875> (5695) on Him all the Tribes of the Land. Yea Amen. [Jeremiah 4:13/Zech 12:10/Daniel 7:13]

Luzeiro · Oct 28, 2008

hamba2han said:
Any theory proposed needs to be supported by actual physical evidence.

If countless archeological excavations in Sinai, Egypt have failed to uncover any evidence of the Exodus, then the logical conclusion is that it is not likely to be the real location of Mount Sinai and the next plausible location may well be in Yemen.

Could you tell me how this affects the plan of salvation prepared for those who choose Christ as Saviour? Thank you.

Luzeiro · Oct 28, 2008

hamba2han said:
In Islam, the real location of Mount Sinai is really not important.

However, Muslims do attach considerable importance to the identity of the "ten thousands of saints" that the Bible prophesied about.

Like I have mentioned before, Muslims WANT to be like them.. and the good news is that we have a pretty good idea who they were.

I would love to hear your "pretty good idea".

Islam_mulia · Oct 28, 2008

Lotuspetal_uk said:
Since when is Muhammed "Adonai" or the Name of God ????? (See Deut 33:2):

Adonai is always used in place of the Name of God for which the Jews do not utter out of respect.

Are you familiar with 'metaphors'? I believe the Tanakh and the NT contains quite a load of them. If you say the "Kingdom of God on earth", you are not saying the "throne" of God reside in Jerusalem?

Deu 33:2 was alluding to representative of God/prophets that would appear in the 3 regions and comes with a "fiery law".

Lotuspetal_uk said:
CONTEXT is the big name here. If we read on to verses 3 and 4 we will see who the holy ones are. Whilst the KJV refers to this verse as "ten thousand(s)" the Tanakh into English says "myriad" i.e. an innumerate amount of people. How many people came out of Eygpt?

The Septuagint used "ten thousands" and I am quite sure many of your Christian brothers use the same kind of translation when pulling out a "prophecy" of Jeus from the OT.

If CONTEXT is your concern, then it would make more sense if "ten thousands" is used to denote the change of establishment/rule. Otherwise the vision of Deu 33:2 would NEVER have happened where 10,000 saints emerged from Mount Paran.

Lotuspetal_uk said:
And yes some archaeologists say that the ten commandments were revealed in the Arabic peninsula so I have no problem with that when one sees where the "Sea of Reeds" are.

Did you read what BASE Institute and CARM proposed? These Chrsitian organisations suggested that Mount Sinai and Mount Paran are in Saudi Arabia.

I do not agree with all that was written by above, but some of the reasonings may fit quite well with what the Quran mentions that God spoke to Moses behind the burning bush in Midian, and Midian is NOT in Sinai Egypt.

Lotuspetal_uk said:
I do have to comment when people allude to Muhammed being Adonai though. I'm sorry but that's offensive. IMO it's as offensive as verses being taken out of context in the Quran by those who do not read Arabic.

Thank you for your politeness. Nope, as I mentioned the usage of metaphors are quite abundant in both the Tanakh and the Quran.

Lotuspetal_uk said:
Amen, plus looking at the full picture as described in this blessing from Moses in Deut 33:2 one can see what was given at Mt Sinai (re: Ex 19:17-18 and Ex chapter 20:1-17 alluding to the 'fiery law').

Moses received the 'fiery law' in Mount Sinai just as Muhammad (pbuh) received the revelation from God in the mountain of Paran. Dont you Christians call the Islamic law less 'fiery'?

It all adds up.

LittleLambofJesus · Oct 28, 2008

Moses received the 'fiery law' in Mount Sinai just as Muhammad (pbuh) received the revelation from God in the mountain of Paran.
Dont you Christians call the Islamic law less 'fiery'?

It all adds up.

Greetings....We do not believe Muhammad received his revelation from YHWH or an angel of Him. And btw, what the heck do you mean by "less fiery" :wave:

Islam_mulia · Oct 28, 2008

Disippelen said:
Well, it seems as if these misunderstandings and wild theories continue to live among some Muslims, although there are numerous holes in them, as shown by many of the Christians in this debate, namely that the Biblical context effectively bars out the theories that Paran was close to Mekka instead of Sinai. Even thinking that Hagar was able to flee with Ishamel all the way to the southeastern part of the Arabian peninsula and not to neighbooring Sinai, is rather crazy. I guess that the fear of being wrong lead some to just continue believing in these twisted ideas permanently...

My understanding is that the exact location of Mount Sinai and Mount Paran has not been firmly established by bible scholars.

In fact, the writings of BASE Institute, though not without its controversies, may point to Mount Paran and Sinai in Midian.

btw, if Paran is in Saudi Arabia, not Egypt, do you think it would be 'easier' for Hagar to travel?

Secundulus · Oct 29, 2008

Islam_mulia said:
Thank you for your politeness. Nope, as I mentioned the usage of metaphors are quite abundant in both the Tanakh and the Quran.

It was pronounced Adonai. It was written YHWY. YHWY is not a metaphor. It is a name.

Islam_mulia · Oct 29, 2008

Secundulus said:
It was pronounced Adonai. It was written YHWY. YHWY is not a metaphor. It is a name.

Do you really understand the meaning of metaphor?

met·a·phor

(m

t

-fôr

, -f

r) [SIZE=-2]KEY [/SIZE]

NOUN:

A figure of speech in which a word or phrase that ordinarily designates one thing is used to designate another, thus making an implicit comparison, as in "a sea of troubles" or "All the world's a stage" (Shakespeare).
One thing conceived as representing another; a symbol: "Hollywood has always been an irresistible, prefabricated metaphor for the crass, the materialistic, the shallow, and the craven" [SIZE=+0](Neal Gabler).[/SIZE]

hamba2han · Oct 29, 2008

Jefell said:
allah is a false god. muhammad took all of the statues, idols and false gods from the false religions around him and put them together.. called them allah. Even the name is allah is blasphemy to the LORD, YHWH.

The very name allah is offensive to GOD.. so what is the rest of islam?

why dont you give us the origin and background behind the name allah?

If you believe muhammad and Jesus were both prophets.. using the morals that GOD gave you, why don't you compare the lives of them both and see who would be a better example to follow? You can't even fathom the thought because you are a slave to islam... the doctrine of the devil. Christians are free. I thank my Almighty GOD for giving His only begotton Son so that a sinner like me should not perish. I pray GOD reaches into your life and you find His Son Jesus Christ. I pray you escape the mental chains of islam and find your way free. Jesus is the Gate.

PRAISE GOD!! C H R I S T I A N S A R E F R E E

GOD BLESS

With Love,
- Jefell

Christians like yourself really should start calling God by the Aramaic name that Jesus Christ (pbuh) himself used.

And to help you get started on the correct and most appropriate way to call the Lord, have a look at this video clip

Jane_the_Bane · Oct 29, 2008

Secundulus said:
It was pronounced Adonai. It was written YHWY. YHWY is not a metaphor. It is a name.

Get your Tetragrammaton right: it's YHVH.

Lotuspetal_uk · Oct 29, 2008

Islam_mulia said:
Are you familiar with 'metaphors'? I believe the Tanakh and the NT contains quite a load of them. If you say the "Kingdom of God on earth", you are not saying the "throne" of God reside in Jerusalem?

Deu 33:2 was alluding to representative of God/prophets that would appear in the 3 regions and comes with a "fiery law".

The Septuagint used "ten thousands" and I am quite sure many of your Christian brothers use the same kind of translation when pulling out a "prophecy" of Jeus from the OT.

If CONTEXT is your concern, then it would make more sense if "ten thousands" is used to denote the change of establishment/rule. Otherwise the vision of Deu 33:2 would NEVER have happened where 10,000 saints emerged from Mount Paran.

Did you read what BASE Institute and CARM proposed? These Chrsitian organisations suggested that Mount Sinai and Mount Paran are in Saudi Arabia.

I do not agree with all that was written by above, but some of the reasonings may fit quite well with what the Quran mentions that God spoke to Moses behind the burning bush in Midian, and Midian is NOT in Sinai Egypt.

Thank you for your politeness. Nope, as I mentioned the usage of metaphors are quite abundant in both the Tanakh and the Quran.

Moses received the 'fiery law' in Mount Sinai just as Muhammad (pbuh) received the revelation from God in the mountain of Paran. Dont you Christians call the Islamic law less 'fiery'?

It all adds up.

Hi,

The above would be all well and good if you can provide Hebraic/Jewish sources to prove that 'Adonai' is used as a metaphor in Deut 33:2. An "ask the Rabbi" site or Jewish site may gladly help you out in the same way that a non Muslim can ask an "Islamic scholar". You can start with this website here.

Again for "tens of thousand" show me the Hebrew in Deut 33:2 which categorically states "tens of thousands", please since the closer translation into English is "myriad". Please see here for the source.

And as for the "fiery law" if you go to a Jewish website you will read about how the Torah (LAW) :

Rashi commentary said:
..[FONT=TREBUCHET, ARIAL, HELVETICA]was written before the creation in letters of black fire against a background of white fire (Tanchuma, Genesis 1).

The Torah was revealed to God's chosen people and thus one needs to seek them in order to rightly understand what the Torah and Tanakh says. I have yet to meet one Jew who states that Muhammed is alluded to in the Torah mainly because the Shuls teach their students Biblical Hebrew. Those are the best sources for us to discuss whether or not Deut. 33:2 infers that it's talking about Muhammed.

[/FONT]So unless I see a link to an Orthodox Jewish/Jewish website saying that the "Adonai" in that verse pertains to a descendant of Ishmael, I shall leave you guys to it.

That is the only issue I have with this thread as it is considered blasphemous to link any human to the Name.

Looking forward to seeing your Jewish evidence in due course.

Shalom aleikhem!

Jefell · Oct 29, 2008

Fuzzy said:
Are they? They adhere (with varying degrees of success) to a morality and set of rules laid down by a deity in hopes of gaining salvation.

adhere means to give support or maintain loyalty. So we do adhere

Christians are free. We choose to stand firm in His Word.

We make mistakes, we sin, we repent, we are saved. Eternally.

We do not do it in hopes of gaining salvation.. we already have salvation. For GOD so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whosoever believes in Him should not perish but have Everlasting Life.

With Love,
- Jefell

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