Is Christianity worth serious consideration

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3sigma

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But how would you refute, say, Berkeley?
This sentence appears nonsensical to me. What does it even mean to refute a city? What are you trying to say?
ETA: Oh, I see you meant George Berkeley, but what would you have me refute?

Perhaps we can progress if you explain what you mean by "sound, objective evidence", because it seems to be somewhat of a rubbery criterion. Only by defining that can we discuss whether that kind of evidence exists for Christianity.
What I mean by sound, objective evidence is evidence that is free from error, fallacy or misapprehension; logically valid and having true premises; and of, relating to or being an object, phenomenon or condition in the realm of sensible experience independent of individual thought and perceptible by all observers. So do you have any evidence that approaches those criteria and substantiates the claim that your God exists? If you have no such evidence then please explain how it is reasonable to hold beliefs that depend solely on that unsubstantiated claim?
 
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KCDAD

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Radagast;Yes, I have sensed the presence of God, and that sensation is "physical" in that it produces changes in my brain just as real as when I sense a flower or a symphony.

Ahhhh....Just as watching TV produces mirror neural activity in the hippocampus and amygdala that reflects the "experience" of the actor being watched.

Thinking produces changes in your brain.
Pretending to be happy or sad produces changes in your brain.
Listening to different types of music produces different changes in your brain.

I would like to know exactly how you would describe your "sensation" of God?

Visual, audio, tactile, etc?
 
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Crazy Liz

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The rules of this forum, "no apologetics allowed," make it impossible to answer your questions within the parameters set by this forum's management.

Apologetics is defined as the systematic defense of the Christian belief system. The rules of Christian Forums forbid Christians from posting apologetics here. I don't know if there is any place at CF where Christians are now allowed to enter into apologetic discussions with non-Christians. Perhaps the Philosophy forum?

I think the question in your OP is constructed in such a way that the only answers you would consider responsive would fall within the realm of apologetics.

You've asked some interesting questions, some of which I would like to be able to explore in more detail, but I am afraid if I do I might cross the line into apologetics, which is not allowed here. The following posts were interesting to me, and I was going to respond to them, but find myself unable to within the rules of this forum. If we could get the mods to move this thread to a forum where we would be allowed to answer, I would be happy to respond, or if you would kindly re-post in another forum where answers are allowed.

Hmmm… No, I must admit I haven’t physically touched any of those because they are emotions and feelings. They only exist within people’s minds. Are you saying that your God only exists within people’s minds? In which case, it couldn’t have created anything, Jesus isn’t its son, it can’t answer prayers or perform miracles and all the stories about it in the Bible are just make-believe.


So then they don’t depend almost entirely on a single unsubstantiated claim with absolutely no sound evidence to support it. In this respect, science and mathematics are not like Christian beliefs at all.

Again I ask, could you please explain how it is reasonable to hold beliefs that depend almost entirely on a single unsubstantiated claim that has absolutely no evidence to support it?

Yes, of course love, beauty, justice, tragedy and vocation are emotions, feelings or value judgments (with the possible exception of justice, but I took it to mean a sense of justice in keeping with the rest of the terms).


Yes, of course they exist only within people’s minds. I’m curious, though, do you think that love, for example, has an independent objective existence?

You also failed to answer my question. When you gave these examples of things that have no independent objective existence in response to my question about the physical existence of your God, were you saying that your God doesn’t physically exist and only exists within people’s minds?


No, it doesn’t mean that everyone is acting unreasonably. There is a fundamental difference between holding beliefs supported by sound, objective evidence and holding beliefs that are not—a difference that you appear to be ignoring or wishing to conceal. People hold many beliefs about the natural world that are based on sound, objective evidence. However, almost all Christian beliefs depend on the single claim that your God exists, which has zero sound, objective evidence supporting it. Though, at least it appears from this that you agree that holding such unsupported beliefs is unreasonable.


Well, repeating the same answer you gave before is certainly saying nothing new so I guess you are done.

This sentence appears nonsensical to me. What does it even mean to refute a city? What are you trying to say?


What I mean by sound, objective evidence is evidence that is free from error, fallacy or misapprehension; logically valid and having true premises; and of, relating to or being an object, phenomenon or condition in the realm of sensible experience independent of individual thought and perceptible by all observers. So do you have any evidence that approaches those criteria and substantiates the claim that your God exists? If you have no such evidence then please explain how it is reasonable to hold beliefs that depend solely on that unsubstantiated claim?
 
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LittleLambofJesus

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3sigma

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Apologetics is defined as the systematic defense of the Christian belief system. The rules of Christian Forums forbid Christians from posting apologetics here.
That’s bizarre, Liz. How could one explore Christianity without asking questions about it and having them answered? One wonders what is the point of a forum called Exploring Christianity if exploring it is not allowed.
 
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3sigma

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This is a forum where non-Christians are encouraged to ask questions about those aspects of the Christian faith which seem hard to understand or accept, and where Christians can enter into discussion with them on these questions.
This is interesting. The very first sentence in the FSG would seem to indicate that apologetics is allowed. One aspect of the Christian faith that I find hard to understand or accept is the fact that almost all Christian beliefs depend on a single claim that has absolutely no sound, objective evidence to support it. It seems natural for me to ask questions about that aspect of the Christian faith and the guidelines indicate that Christians can enter into a discussion about it.

The guidelines do warn against debating, but only Christians debating other Christians in their responses to non-Christians. It appears that all Christians must present a united front to non-Christians. They must not disagree on any aspects of their faith. This also seems bizarre in that it plainly contradicts the reality of multiple denominations within Christianity based on their disagreement on aspects of the Christian faith.
 
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AV1611VET

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For pity's sake --- if you have a question --- ask it; but don't do like you guys normally do: ask a question, then drag it out 15 posts, only to tell us you don't believe a word of it, anyway.
 
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LittleLambofJesus

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Radagast

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What I mean by sound, objective evidence is evidence that is free from error, fallacy or misapprehension; logically valid and having true premises; and of, relating to or being an object, phenomenon or condition in the realm of sensible experience independent of individual thought and perceptible by all observers.

I don't quite understand that: what does it mean for evidence to be logically valid or to have premises?

And I presume that by "object ... in the realm of sensible experience" you're ruling out the possibility of God a priori?
 
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LittleLambofJesus

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suzybeezy

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What I mean by sound, objective evidence is evidence that is free from error, fallacy or misapprehension; logically valid and having true premises; and of, relating to or being an object, phenomenon or condition in the realm of sensible experience independent of individual thought and perceptible by all observers. So do you have any evidence that approaches those criteria and substantiates the claim that your God exists? If you have no such evidence then please explain how it is reasonable to hold beliefs that depend solely on that unsubstantiated claim?

I'm no scientist but the Bible describes several properties of the earth that were not confirmed by science until hundreds of years after the Bible first made the claim, some not even until this century. One example would be for years the world was taught to be flat, yet the Bible accurately desribed it as a sphere - and later scientists of course found it to be in fact round. Isaiah 40:22 "He sits enthroned above the circle of the earth.." The Bible accurately describes lots of things regarding the phsycial world that at the time didn't have sound, objective evidence, yet that didn't make them any less true. Just because science hasn't caught up with the truths of Christianity, doesn't make it any less true or real. Is it really that hard to believe that God would be smarter and beyond the intelligence of scientists of whom he created?

Additionally, the thread begins with the question "Is Christianity worth serious consideration?" I'd answer - of course! Open your heart and mind, continue to ask questions, read the Bible and pray - ask God to make himself real to you. Once you've experienced it for yourself, you'll see why so many Christians can state without a doubt that God exists. We know its true cause we've experienced it and felt it and know it in our very core. Its impossible to deny something that has been made so incredibly real to you.
 
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CaDan

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I'm no scientist but the Bible describes several properties of the earth that were not confirmed by science until hundreds of years after the Bible first made the claim, some not even until this century. One example would be for years the world was taught to be flat, yet the Bible accurately desribed it as a sphere - and later scientists of course found it to be in fact round. Isaiah 40:22 "He sits enthroned above the circle of the earth.." The Bible accurately describes lots of things regarding the phsycial world that at the time didn't have sound, objective evidence, yet that didn't make them any less true. Just because science hasn't caught up with the truths of Christianity, doesn't make it any less true or real. Is it really that hard to believe that God would be smarter and beyond the intelligence of scientists of whom he created?

Christians argued for the flat earth. Pagan Greeks had determined the earth was spherical.

Good thing there is no "apologetics" allowed here.
 
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DarkProphet

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I'm no scientist but the Bible describes several properties of the earth that were not confirmed by science until hundreds of years after the Bible first made the claim, some not even until this century. One example would be for years the world was taught to be flat, yet the Bible accurately desribed it as a sphere - and later scientists of course found it to be in fact round. Isaiah 40:22 "He sits enthroned above the circle of the earth.." The Bible accurately describes lots of things regarding the phsycial world that at the time didn't have sound, objective evidence, yet that didn't make them any less true. Just because science hasn't caught up with the truths of Christianity, doesn't make it any less true or real. Is it really that hard to believe that God would be smarter and beyond the intelligence of scientists of whom he created?

Additionally, the thread begins with the question "Is Christianity worth serious consideration?" I'd answer - of course! Open your heart and mind, continue to ask questions, read the Bible and pray - ask God to make himself real to you. Once you've experienced it for yourself, you'll see why so many Christians can state without a doubt that God exists. We know its true cause we've experienced it and felt it and know it in our very core. Its impossible to deny something that has been made so incredibly real to you.

Not to be nitpicky but "circle" is a 2D word that describes a 2D shape. The correct word would be sphere or ball.
 
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You are asking for things that are almost exclusively supernatural to be substantiated in terms of the scientific method and empirical evidence which are both by definition limited to observing and explaining natural phenomena. You are asking for things that are at the core beyond rationality or logic to be explained using rationality and logic. Given this fact, it is obvious that no one is changing anyone else's mind here. When we talk about "belief," the word means two entirely different things depending on whether we are speaking in the context of religion or in the context of science. Perhaps they both mean to have a conviction of the truth of some proposition, but the criteria by which we come by that belief is fundamentally different.

Most everyone can agree that, with some important exceptions if you are a Christian, God exists on a spiritual not a physical level. Empirical evidence and scientific examination can't be very useful in proving or disproving something which is taken to exist outside of the dimension of space and time, and to have existed before the creation of space and time with the Big Bang. Of course Christians believe (most of them anyway) that God does manifest Himself in the physical world, such as in the form of Jesus Christ two-thousand years ago and in miracles throughout time. That these things were and are in fact a manifestation of God's influence or God himself on earth is taken as a matter of faith...if one's worldview is that of a believer, you feel these things in your heart and that is taken as sufficient. However if one has the worldview of a skeptic of course they are inclined to find in contemporary miracles a plausible natural explanation for these phenomena, or to doubt the veracity of accounts of things claimed to have taken place in the past such as Christ's miracles and resurrection.

Some now and throughout history have posited reasoned and logical arguments for the existence of God, but regardless of the soundness of their logic these have probably swayed not a single unbeliever to believe. Because God is beyond logic and reason. To accept the Christian conception of God one must be able to set aside logic and accept paradoxes placidly. How logically can God be three yet one--not 1/3 and 1/3 and 1/3 making one, but 1 + 1 + 1 equaling one? Similarly how can Christ have been a hundred percent man and a hundred percent God when the definitions of man and God make them mutually exclusive? How can an omnipotent and infinitely good God allow evil to exist? How can an omnipotent and all-knowing God be consistent with human beings having free-will? How can God be both infinitely merciful and infinitely just? Theologians may venture to put forth answers to these questions, but in my opinion there are no logical answers to these questions.

And yet that does not disturb my faith in God because once I was able to open my heart to Him, He showed Himself to me. There were no chemistry sets or logical proofs involved. If you want to know God, you have to learn to think in another language besides that of science and reason. You don't have to unlearn that language, you just have to learn another one and use that to think about otherworldly matters and the language with which you are already familiar to think about worldly ones. I say none of this to knock the scientific method or logic! If you believe that nothing exists that cannot be explained by them, that is what you believe--but at the very least won't you question why it is you believe that to be so? Why is it that you give them that complete authority? So that you know where I'm coming from, I was raised agnostic and this was exactly the problem I had to grapple with before I could believe.
 
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3sigma

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I don't quite understand that: what does it mean for evidence to be logically valid or to have premises?
I find it difficult to believe that a 45-year-old professional mathematician doesn’t understand what is meant by evidence being logically valid and having true premises. I asked for evidence to support the claim that your God exists and several posters here made statements that the Bible contains evidence that your God exists. Are the statements in the Bible that these posters would use as evidence logically valid? Do they have true premises? Another poster claimed that the resurrection of Jesus is evidence that your God exists. Is that statement logically valid? Does it have true premises?

And I presume that by "object ... in the realm of sensible experience" you're ruling out the possibility of God a priori?
Why did you omit the terms encompassed by that ellipsis? The phrase was, “object, phenomenon or condition in the realm of sensible experience”. Notice the ‘or’ in there. The evidence doesn’t have to be an object. It could be a phenomenon or a condition. But perhaps you should first describe your God before you try to offer evidence supporting its existence. To begin with, what constitutes your God; is it matter, energy, a force or something else? Your answer to this question may rule out the existence of your God.
 
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Radagast

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I find it difficult to believe that a 45-year-old professional mathematician doesn’t understand what is meant by evidence being logically valid and having true premises.

I know what it means for an argument to be logically valid. I'm not sure what you mean by evidence being logically valid and having true premises.

To begin with, what constitutes your God; is it matter, energy, a force or something else? Your answer to this question may rule out the existence of your God.

It does seem that you assume a priori that only physical things exist. We could perhaps debate that some time, but now isn't a convenient time.
 
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EternalSummer

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For pity's sake --- if you have a question --- ask it; but don't do like you guys normally do: ask a question, then drag it out 15 posts, only to tell us you don't believe a word of it, anyway.

Yes, why, heaven forfend we should have individuals who actually care enough about TRUTH to want to subject whatever gets claimed to be it to rigorous free and open inquiry. Heaven forbid they might care enough about where they invest not just their lives but eternity that they want to be certain they are heading in the right direction. Heaven forbid they demonstrate potential for a level of faith (trust) in God far deeper and higher and more solid and real than our own by refusing to simply buy into something just because one of US says so but might actually want, rather than to be tossed our fish, to be taught HOW to fish. And finally heaven forbid they discover the real sad shame of it all: that few of us here would be up to the task of truly handling their inquiries and doubts in a godly fashion.

My apologies to all atheists and non-believers who come here looking for real meaty dialogue and finding instead a plethora of pablum, platitudes, and pathetic excuses instead of honest, earnest, and intelligent Christians ready to at least give it their best, humblest, and most sincere effort to engage you in the kind of dialogue that will, if not inspire you with faith in Jesus Christ, at least leave you feeling a little better about what that faith can actually do for some of us as opposed to the deplorable representation it typically gets from most of us. On behalf of the corporate Body of Christ all over the world but most especially in the United States, please accept my heartfelt apologies for this travesty. :prayer:
 
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EternalSummer

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For those interested in a very objective and pretty thorough examination of the strongest arguments BOTH for and against theism, I strongly recommend the following:

Questions of Faith: The Philosophy of Religion, Portable Professor Philosophy (Audio CD)

You might have to Google around to find one at a good price. It is well worth the money spent. The professor doing the lectures on these CDs does a fantastic job of presenting both sides of the argument in a clear, logical, rational, systematic and unbiased fashion and the lectures are really enlightening and eye opening on this subject. As a theist I am coming away from listening to this with a newfound respect for intellectually-honest non-believers and the reasons why they find theism untenable. It doesn't mean I will necessarily be able to answer their objections or "sway" them to my "side" (theism, as I am a believer) but I think overall it can improve the quality of dialogue between the two camps immeasurably. I highly recommend this audio-book to both believers and non-believers alike who are interested in understanding the intelligent and rational reasons for both sides of this debate.
 
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