For Christians who say that they know God

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hamba2han

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What about what my bro Paul says concerning Mt Sinai here? :angel:

Gala 4:24 which things are allegorized, for these are the two covenants: one, indeed, from mount Sinai, to servitude bringing forth, which is Hagar; 25 for this Hagar is mount Sinai in Arabia, and doth correspond to the Jerusalem that now [is], and is in servitude with her children, 26 and the Jerusalem above is the free-woman, which is mother of us all, 27 for it hath been written, `Rejoice, O barren, who art not bearing; break forth and cry, thou who art not travailing, because many [are] the children of the desolate--more than of her having the husband.' 28 And we, brethren, as Isaac, are children of promise, 29 but as then he who was born according to the flesh did persecute him according to the spirit, so also now; 30 but what saith the Writing? `Cast forth the maid-servant and her son, for the son of the maid-servant may not be heir with the son of the free-woman;' 31 then, brethren, we are not a maid-servant's children, but the free-woman's.
Actually, it may well be that the real Mount Sinai is in Arabia because there is indeed an alternate route for the Exodus that has been proposed by some Biblical scholars:

sinai.jpg

To read more, kindly refer to this link.

And when you consider the following verses of the Bible, then perhaps there may well be truth to the suggestion that the real Mount Sinai is in Arabia i.e. specifically Yemen, instead of Egypt.

And he said, The LORD came from Si'nai, and rose up from Se'ir unto them; he shined forth from mount Paran, and he came with ten thousands of saints: from his right hand went a fiery law for them. .. Deuteronomy 33:2 2

God came from Teman, the Holy One from Mount Paran. Selah His glory covered the heavens, and the earth was full of his praise. .. Habakkuk 3:3

Teman is the Hebrew word for Yemen.
 
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Secundulus

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The flashing of lightening is not a law, but rather a sign.

"All the people perceived the thunder and the lightning flashes and the sound of the trumpet and the mountain smoking; and when the people saw it, they trembled and stood at a distance." (Exodus 20:18, NASB95)
After a little more research, I find that the flashing of lightening may be understood as the law in this verse.
 
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hamba2han

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Oh Ishmael the child that was cast out into the desert with his mother. Ishmael, the son that was born out of lack of faith in GOD.

Ishmael the son of Abraham that GOD doesnt acknowledge here:

Ge 22:2 Then God said, "Take your son, your only son, Isaac, whom you love, and go to the region of Moriah. Sacrifice him there as a burnt offering on one of the mountains I will tell you about. "

Isaac was younger than Ishmael.. yet Isaac was Abraham's only true son in the eyes of GOD. Isaac is the son of the covenant. Through which King David, King Solomon and Jesus Christ descend.

can good fruit come from a bad tree?




I think its just wonderful that now muslims want to be cousins with the Jews.. was just a moment ago that they were infidels... Jews are the chosen people of GOD. Pretty soon muslims will be claiming that muslims ARE also Jews.




Thats all you need is the bible itself.. if you are believing parts of the bible maybe you should believe more of it.. seek Jesus, the only Son of GOD who came so that whoever believes in Him shall not perish but have eternal life. Is it a possibility that the quran is written by an illiterate selfserving desperate man and is not a copy of "The" book in heaven? is it just a possibility?



Chrisitians know that Christ Jesus exists.. Muslims know that Jesus Christ exists.. Since Christ Jesus exists you really really should focus on your salvation through accepting Him as your Lord & Savior.

With Love,
- Jefell
You do NOT have a clue who these "ten thousands of saints/holy ones" are and you just cannot bring yourself to admit it, can you?

Again, one should never forget that these 'saints' are the real deal because they have been acknowledged and blessed by God Almighty Himself as stated in the the Biblical verses which I have quoted.

Muslims WANT to be like these 'saints' and so we are asking Christians --> Who exactly are these "ten thousands of saints"?
 
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Secundulus

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Actually, it may well be that the real Mount Sinai is in Arabia because there is indeed an alternate route for the Exodus that has been proposed by some Biblical scholars:

sinai.jpg

To read more, kindly refer to this link.

And when you consider the following verses of the Bible, then perhaps there may well be truth to the suggestion that the real Mount Sinai is in Arabia i.e. specifically Yemen, instead of Egypt.

And he said, The LORD came from Si'nai, and rose up from Se'ir unto them; he shined forth from mount Paran, and he came with ten thousands of saints: from his right hand went a fiery law for them. .. Deuteronomy 33:2 2

God came from Teman, the Holy One from Mount Paran. Selah His glory covered the heavens, and the earth was full of his praise. .. Habakkuk 3:3

Teman is the Hebrew word for Yemen.
This is a theory I have seen before and is plausible. However, It is still over 400 miles from Mecca and well over a three day walk. NE Sinai Peninsula remains within about 100 miles and a three day walk is possible.
 
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hamba2han

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This is a theory I have seen before and is plausible. However, It is still over 400 miles from Mecca and well over a three day walk. NE Sinai Peninsula remains within about 100 miles and a three day walk is possible.
Any theory proposed needs to be supported by actual physical evidence.

If countless archeological excavations in Sinai, Egypt have failed to uncover any evidence of the Exodus, then the logical conclusion is that it is not likely to be the real location of Mount Sinai and the next plausible location may well be in Yemen.
 
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LittleLambofJesus

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Any theory proposed needs to be supported by actual physical evidence.

If countless archeological excavations in Sinai, Egypt have failed to uncover any evidence of the Exodus, then the logical conclusion is that it is not likely to be the real location of Mount Sinai and the next plausible location may well be in Yemen.
Greetings. Is the location really that important to Islam and Christianity? :angel:

Ezekiel 39:17 " And thou son of adam, thus He says my Lord YHWH, say thou! to bird of every wing, and to all of beast of the field: 'be assembled ye! and come ye! together ye from round about on sacrifice of Me which I sacrificing for ye, a sacrifice great on Mountains of Israel, and ye eat flesh and ye drink blood. 18 Flesh of mighty-ones ye shall eat, and blood of princes of the Land ye shall drink.....

Matt 24:16 "Then those in the Judea let be fleeing into the Mountains."
 
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Secundulus

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Any theory proposed needs to be supported by actual physical evidence.

If countless archeological excavations in Sinai, Egypt have failed to uncover any evidence of the Exodus, then the logical conclusion is that it is not likely to be the real location of Mount Sinai and the next plausible location may well be in Yemen.
It is quite possible, especially given that Moses' Father-in-Law was from Midian and Moses had lived there for a long time.
 
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hamba2han

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Greetings. Is the location really that important to Islam and Christianity? :angel:

Ezekiel 39:17 " And thou son of adam, thus He says my Lord YHWH, say thou! to bird of every wing, and to all of beast of the field: 'be assembled ye! and come ye! together ye from round about on sacrifice of Me which I sacrificing for ye, a sacrifice great on Mountains of Israel, and ye eat flesh and ye drink blood. 18 Flesh of mighty-ones ye shall eat, and blood of princes of the Land ye shall drink.....

Matt 24:16 "Then those in the Judea let be fleeing into the Mountains."
In Islam, the real location of Mount Sinai is really not important.

However, Muslims do attach considerable importance to the identity of the "ten thousands of saints" that the Bible prophesied about.

Like I have mentioned before, Muslims WANT to be like them.. and the good news is that we have a pretty good idea who they were.
 
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LittleLambofJesus

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In Islam, the real location of Mount Sinai is really not important.

However, Muslims do attach considerable importance to the identity of the "ten thousands of saints" that the Bible prophesied about.

Like I have mentioned before, Muslims WANT to be like them.. and the good news is that we have a pretty good idea who they were.
Then accept JESUS as Lord and Savior.....:angel:

1 Thessalonians 3:13 Into the stand-fast of ye, the hearts blameless in together-holiness before the God and Father of us in the Parousia <3952> of the Lord of us, Jesus Christ, with all of the holy-ones of Him [Zech 14:5/Revelation 19:11.]

Reve 19:11 And I perceived the heaven having be opened and Behold! A horse, white and the One sitting on it/him being called Faithful and True and in justice He is judging and is battling.
14 And the armies, the in the heaven, followed to him on horses, white, having been inslipped/dressed linen, white, clean,
 
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LittleLambofJesus

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The following two links would help explain who these "ten thousands of saints" were and why they mean so much to Muslims: 1 & 2.
Greetings.....do the Muslims realize Paul quoted from Zech 14:5 in 1 Thess 3 concerning the Parousia of the Lord? :angel:

Zech 14:5 And you flee ravine of mountains, that he shall touch ravine of mountains to 'Atsel. And you flee as which you fled from before the earthquake in days of `Uzziyah king of Y@huwdah and He comes, YHWH my Elohiym, all of holy-ones with You. [1 Thess 3:13/Reve 19]
 
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Secundulus

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The following two links would help explain who these "ten thousands of saints" were and why they mean so much to Muslims: 1 & 2.
You believe that the 10.000 are Muhammed's Army that defeated and killed those who would not follow Muhammed's message.

I think that this illustrates very definitively why we object to your belief. You want to be like those who forcibly crush those who will not follow Muhammed. I will not follow Muhammed. Is your desire to crush me so that you can be like the 10,000?

I think that it also does not fit in any way with the context of the verse in the Jewish Scripture.
 
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seashale76

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Islam_mulia

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Paran is in the Sinai, not in Arabia. Your explanation does not work.
The traditional biblical view is that Paran, and Mount Paran is in northern Egypt Sinai.

http://www.picturesofsilver.com/appendix/mapExodus.htm

Nonetheless, a study by the Bible Archaelogical Search and Exploration (BASE) Institute proposed that Mount Paran and Mount Sinai are not in Egypt Sinai, but more possibly in Saudi Arabia.

http://www.baseinstitute.org/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=72&Itemid=94

BASE Institute proposed a different Exodus route that brought Prophet Moses to Mount Sinai (in Saudi) and proceeded through Paran/Teman along the Midian region.

Midian (Madyan) is in modern Saudi Arabia where both the Quran (28:29-30) and Bible mention that God spoke to Moses from the burning Bush.

A Christian website (that seeks to explain Christianity to Muslims), CARM, went further by quoting BASE studies and pointing to Mount Sinai in Saudi Arabia.

http://www.carm.org/questions/desert.htm

Together with what Brother hamba2han indicated:

1. Prophet Musa (pbuh) informed the people of the coming of a great prophet at Paran with 10,000 men.

And he said, The LORD came from Sinai, and rose up from Seir unto them; he shined forth from mount Paran, and he came with ten thousands of saints: from his right hand went a fiery law for them. (Deuteronomy 33:2)

The significance of this prophecy is there has been no record of any 10,000 'saints' in the history of the region of Paran other than Muhammad (pbuh) and 10,000 Muslims liberating Mecca and the Ka'aba from all idols.

2. The great leader/prophet that will come from Paran is further prophecised in the Bible:

God came from Teman, and the Holy One from mount Paran. Selah. His glory covered the heavens, and the earth was full of his praise. (Habakkuk 3:3)

In fact, this prophet (Muhammad) came with a fiery law that changes the world and starts with the people of Midian:

He stood, and measured the earth: he beheld, and drove asunder the nations; and the everlasting mountains were scattered, the perpetual hills did bow: his ways are everlasting.

I saw the tents of Cushan in affliction: and the curtains of the land of Midian did tremble. (Habakkuk 3:6-7)

3. According to Secundulus:
The Bible states that Paran was three days journey from Mt. Sinai.​

If we can accept CARM's proposal that Mt Sinai is in Saudi Arabia, then a 3 day journey from Mt Sinai to Paran, is acceptable.
 
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Lotuspetal_uk

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Since when is Muhammed "Adonai" or the Name of God ????? (See Deut 33:2):

Complete Jewish Bible said:
ADONAI came from Sinai;
from Se'ir he dawned on his people,
shone forth from Mount Pa'ran;
and with him were myriads of holy ones;
at his right hand
was a fiery law for them.

Adonai is always used in place of the Name of God for which the Jews do not utter out of respect.

CONTEXT is the big name here. If we read on to verses 3 and 4 we will see who the holy ones are. Whilst the KJV refers to this verse as "ten thousand(s)" the Tanakh into English says "myriad" i.e. an innumerate amount of people. How many people came out of Eygpt?

And yes some archaeologists say that the ten commandments were revealed in the Arabic peninsula so I have no problem with that when one sees where the "Sea of Reeds" are.

I do have to comment when people allude to Muhammed being Adonai though. I'm sorry but that's offensive. IMO it's as offensive as verses being taken out of context in the Quran by those who do not read Arabic. :doh:
 
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Lotuspetal_uk

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Good point. In the original Hebrew, the He who came out from Sinai in this verse is YHWY.
Amen, plus looking at the full picture as described in this blessing from Moses in Deut 33:2 one can see what was given at Mt Sinai (re: Ex 19:17-18 and Ex chapter 20:1-17 alluding to the 'fiery law'). :thumbsup:
 
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Jefell

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You do NOT have a clue who these "ten thousands of saints/holy ones" are and you just cannot bring yourself to admit it, can you?

Again, one should never forget that these 'saints' are the real deal because they have been acknowledged and blessed by God Almighty Himself as stated in the the Biblical verses which I have quoted.

Muslims WANT to be like these 'saints' and so we are asking Christians --> Who exactly are these "ten thousands of saints"?


I am one of them.

2Co 13:13 All the saints send their greetings.

Rev 17:6 I saw that the woman was drunk with the blood of the saints, the blood of those who bore testimony to Jesus.


Muslims can not be saints.. you have no way to wash your robe.

Without Jesus Christ as your Lord & Savior.. you have no way to be relinquished of your sin.

Jesus is the Gate.

With Love,
- Jefell
 
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Disippelen

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Well, it seems as if these misunderstandings and wild theories continue to live among some Muslims, although there are numerous holes in them, as shown by many of the Christians in this debate, namely that the Biblical context effectively bars out the theories that Paran was close to Mekka instead of Sinai. Even thinking that Hagar was able to flee with Ishamel all the way to the southeastern part of the Arabian peninsula and not to neighbooring Sinai, is rather crazy. I guess that the fear of being wrong lead some to just continue believing in these twisted ideas permanently...

:)
 
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