Sinners Prayer?

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squint

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Your use of the thief on the cross does not work. Baptism is the sybolism of Christ's death, and resurrection, you can not have a symbol of something before it has happened.

Many symbols of Him were provided well in advance of the events of Him. An entire O.T. worth.

Baptism is viewed by so many in so many different ways. Some say like you, that it is 'symbolic.' When we step onto the grounds of the 'symbolic' that opens up a wide field of views. Some say it is a must do physical action.

Having been baptised along the trail by at least 3 or more variations (just to make sure...;) ) I have to say that all the 'methodologies' did not provide some magical transformation other than to wet my skin in various ways. But NEVER did I hear one baptiser tell me that when any person is IMMERSED into the WATER of the WORD they come out TOTALLY CLEAN of SINS. Hence BAPTISM in squints understanding as a reality of the symbol of physical baptism but far more a reality that transpires when we ARE IMMERSED into HIS LIVING WORDS.

Is there MORE to the disclosures in the IMMERSION into His Words? Yes. Far more and continually ongoing.

The physical event is an expression of the reality of certain WORD FACTS but the WORD FACTS do not change for lack of physical expression. By the physical expression we are saying that WE KNOW the FACTS as a reality in our hearts.

So, let's all fight about it? Let's ALL condemn each other to HELL over ALL the petty intricacies of the ways and means and various incantations? Yeah, makes sense to me...not.

IF the River of Life is IN US we all make busy washing others and no, not with WATER.

John 4:2
Though Jesus himself baptized not

John the Baptist delivered a little water to some others at the banks of the Jordan here as well:

"And were baptized of him in Jordan, confessing their sins. But when he saw many of the Pharisees and Sadducees come to his baptism, he said unto them, O generation of vipers, who hath warned you to flee from the wrath to come? Bring forth therefore fruits-"

The Word is an interesting event. For every man that picks up Gods Words to condemn another person, that SAME WORD will quickly turn upon their own heads.

How many different DENOMS 'baptise' in their OWN NAMES and in their OWN FORMATS? I feel free to observe that ALL of them do, even though this is FORBIDDEN by Paul, and Paul himself was thankful he didn't get caught up in that MESS:

1 Cor. 1:

12 Now this I say, that every one of you saith, I am of Paul; and I of Apollos; and I of Cephas; and I of Christ.
13 Is Christ divided? was Paul crucified for you? or were ye baptized in the name of Paul?
14 I thank God that I baptized none of you, but Crispus and Gaius;
15 Lest any should say that I had baptized in mine own name.

Today believers are baptised under the name of Luther or of Calvin or of the Pope or of whoever and whatever DIVISION...and they do so in the POWER of DIVISION proving Gods Word to be TRUE to DIVIDE them all away from each other rather than to JOIN all into HIM.

enjoy!

squint
 
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darkshadow

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Many symbols of Him were provided well in advance of the events of Him. An entire O.T. worth.

Baptism is viewed by so many in so many different ways. Some say like you, that it is 'symbolic.' When we step onto the grounds of the 'symbolic' that opens up a wide field of views. Some say it is a must do physical action.

Having been baptised along the trail by at least 3 or more variations (just to make sure...;) ) I have to say that all the 'methodologies' did not provide some magical transformation other than to wet my skin in various ways. But NEVER did I hear one baptiser tell me that when any person is IMMERSED into the WATER of the WORD they come out TOTALLY CLEAN of SINS. Hence BAPTISM in squints understanding as a reality of the symbol of physical baptism but far more a reality that transpires when we ARE IMMERSED into HIS LIVING WORDS.

Is there MORE to the disclosures in the IMMERSION into His Words? Yes. Far more and continually ongoing.

The physical event is an expression of the reality of certain WORD FACTS but the WORD FACTS do not change for lack of physical expression. By the physical expression we are saying that WE KNOW the FACTS as a reality in our hearts.

So, let's all fight about it? Let's ALL condemn each other to HELL over ALL the petty intricacies of the ways and means and various incantations? Yeah, makes sense to me...not.

IF the River of Life is IN US we all make busy washing others and no, not with WATER.

John 4:2
Though Jesus himself baptized not

John the Baptist delivered a little water to some others at the banks of the Jordan here as well:

"And were baptized of him in Jordan, confessing their sins. But when he saw many of the Pharisees and Sadducees come to his baptism, he said unto them, O generation of vipers, who hath warned you to flee from the wrath to come? Bring forth therefore fruits-"

The Word is an interesting event. For every man that picks up Gods Words to condemn another person, that SAME WORD will quickly turn upon their own heads.

How many different DENOMS 'baptise' in their OWN NAMES and in their OWN FORMATS? I feel free to observe that ALL of them do, even though this is FORBIDDEN by Paul, and Paul himself was thankful he didn't get caught up in that MESS:

1 Cor. 1:

12 Now this I say, that every one of you saith, I am of Paul; and I of Apollos; and I of Cephas; and I of Christ.
13 Is Christ divided? was Paul crucified for you? or were ye baptized in the name of Paul?
14 I thank God that I baptized none of you, but Crispus and Gaius;
15 Lest any should say that I had baptized in mine own name.

Today believers are baptised under the name of Luther or of Calvin or of the Pope or of whoever and whatever DIVISION...and they do so in the POWER of DIVISION proving Gods Word to be TRUE to DIVIDE them all away from each other rather than to JOIN all into HIM.

enjoy!

squint

The Bible is clear about baptism being a part of salvation, and who we are baptized into. The fact still remains the immersion baptism, that is mentioned in the New Testament, is commanded by Christ. "Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, and teaching them to obey everything I have commanded you.." - Matthew 28:19-20a. and Peter, "Peter replied, "Repent and be baptized, every one of you, in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins. And you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit." - Acts 2:39. When Paul is speaking of being glad he did not baptize any of them, was because the people were treating him as if he was a god, and he was glad that he had not, unintentionally, went with what they were doing. Johns baptism was of repentance, the baptism we have now is a baptism into Christ's death and resurrection. It is a baptism of forgiveness and salvation. The thread however, is about the origin of the "Sinners Prayer".
 
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New_Wineskin

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Baptism does nothing to save you, ask the thief. And number five makes salvation works based, not by grace.

Not to mention that water baptism is a Jewish ritual - like circumcism . If water baptism saves , circumcism saves all the more as it is a comand that goes farther in history to the very time that the Lord gave the promises to Abraham - the promises that has given us a chance for salvation .
 
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JayJay77

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Squint,

I think we'll agree to disagree on the effectiveness of the 'sinner's prayer,' or the 'sales pitch' as you call it. In our church, it is not used as a manipulative tool to coerce people into doing something they don't want to do.

What's wrong with having a marked time of 'division' living? When a person prays this prayer (yes, repeats- but means it in their hearts) what's wrong with that?

Btw, the sinner's prayer DID start in a time where illiteracy was high. 1600-1700's? Only, it wasn't called the 'sinner's prayer.' I agree with you, the 'sinner's prayer' was made popular especially in the Billy Graham crusades where the altar call was very prevalent.
 
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squint

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The Bible is clear about baptism being a part of salvation, and who we are baptized into. The fact still remains the immersion baptism, that is mentioned in the New Testament, is commanded by Christ. "Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, and teaching them to obey everything I have commanded you.." - Matthew 28:19-20a. and Peter, "Peter replied, "Repent and be baptized, every one of you, in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins. And you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit." - Acts 2:39. When Paul is speaking of being glad he did not baptize any of them, was because the people were treating him as if he was a god, and he was glad that he had not, unintentionally, went with what they were doing. Johns baptism was of repentance, the baptism we have now is a baptism into Christ's death and resurrection. It is a baptism of forgiveness and salvation. The thread however, is about the origin of the "Sinners Prayer".

Part of the observation I made was that 'some' perhaps 'your' group just mandates a different format that includes yet another different form of baptism requirement. A more lengthy version of the short form.
 
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squint

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Squint,

I think we'll agree to disagree on the effectiveness of the 'sinner's prayer,' or the 'sales pitch' as you call it. In our church, it is not used as a manipulative tool to coerce people into doing something they don't want to do.

My general synopsis of the shortform pitch that "is" commonly used is: threat of eternal torture followed by opportunity to invest to avoid.

What's wrong with having a marked time of 'division' living? When a person prays this prayer (yes, repeats- but means it in their hearts) what's wrong with that?

See above formula. I call that pitch manipulation.

Btw, the sinner's prayer DID start in a time where illiteracy was high. 1600-1700's? Only, it wasn't called the 'sinner's prayer.' I agree with you, the 'sinner's prayer' was made popular especially in the Billy Graham crusades where the altar call was very prevalent.

The general construct whether an assumptive or aggresive 'closing' format is used hasn't changed all that much. Whether you agree or not I still think it's conversion via force, threat and/or subtle manipulation.
 
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JayJay77

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So, were John the Baptist's closing remarks, "Repent!" seen as manipulative?

I'm sure one could say that those baptized in Acts 2:41 were victimized by a manipulative formula as well. In fact, how else could they get the number "3,000" without taking a consensus of who was baptized?
 
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squint

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So, were John the Baptist's closing remarks, "Repent!" seen as manipulative?

Repentance is not offered to vipers in mankind no matter what their external works show.

I'm sure one could say that those baptized in Acts 2:41 were victimized by a manipulative formula as well. In fact, how else could they get the number "3,000" without taking a consensus of who was baptized?

I do not recall seeing anywhere in the scriptures the presentation that you must BELIEVE LIKE MY SECT or you will burn alive forever...followed by an altar call.

enjoy!

squint
 
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JayJay77

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from squint:
I do not recall seeing anywhere in the scriptures the presentation that you must BELIEVE LIKE MY SECT or you will burn alive forever...followed by an altar call.

Did I miss something?
Is this something I said, or something you believe the 'sinner's prayer' claims?
I don't recall the 'sinner's prayer' saying anything about believing with a denom. or a sect.....unless you feel it's implied.
 
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squint

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Did I miss something?
Is this something I said, or something you believe the 'sinner's prayer' claims?
I don't recall the 'sinner's prayer' saying anything about believing with a denom. or a sect.....unless you feel it's implied.

Depends on which sects requirement list we are dealing with. We do not see Billy Graham making RCC converts or vice versa.
 
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JayJay77

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from squint:
Depends on which sects requirement list we are dealing with. We do not see Billy Graham making RCC converts or vice versa.

Trudat, trudat. So, you feel that if I give an invitation at the end of the service in my Assembly of God church for people to recite the 'sinner's prayer,' that I imply also that they become a member of the A/G denom?

What if we make it clear that this is not a membership invitation, but a salvation invitation only?
 
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squint

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Trudat, trudat. So, you feel that if I give an invitation at the end of the service in my Assembly of God church for people to recite the 'sinner's prayer,' that I imply also that they become a member of the A/G denom?

What if we make it clear that this is not a membership invitation, but a salvation invitation only?

Again, depends on the sect. Pentacostalists tend to roam from group to group. RCC says there is no salvation outside of them. Southern Baptists say you must have total immersion. UPC says you must speak in tongues, etc.

All of these are sect converters imho. Not saying that God doesn't work with ALL of them in some way and part of that way is in their obvious divisions.
 
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JayJay77

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Well, in that regard (as you said, "depending on the sect"), I totally agree with you. The 'sinner's prayer' may be a manipulative tool used by those to enlarge their denom.

But I love (and wanted to say in my own words earlier) what you said,
from squint:
Not saying that God doesn't work with ALL of them in some way and part of that way is in their obvious divisions.

That's right in line with what Paul said about the Gnostics.
 
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squint

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Well, in that regard (as you said, "depending on the sect"), I totally agree with you. The 'sinner's prayer' may be a manipulative tool used by those to enlarge their denom.

But I love (and wanted to say in my own words earlier) what you said,


That's right in line with what Paul said about the Gnostics.

You are right in that Paul was OK with 'however' Christ was preached, in pretense OR in truth. He knew that it is THE WORD that works The Will of God in mankind regardless of ALL attempted manipulation...and I believe that as well.

Where The Word is seeded will produce the desired effects of THE WORD.

enjoy!

squint
 
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JMWHALEN

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(bold/underline is my emphasis)

Faith/belief/trust is non-meritorial, i.e., not a "work":

"But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness. " Romans 4:5

vs.
Prayer is a work:
"Epaphras, who is one of you, a servant of Christ, saluteth you, always labouring fervently for you in prayers, that ye may stand perfect and complete in all the will of God." Colossians 4:12


In Christ,
John M. Whalen
 
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onwingsaseagles

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(bold/underline is my emphasis)

Faith/belief/trust is non-meritorial, i.e., not a "work":

"But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness. " Romans 4:5

vs.
Prayer is a work:
"Epaphras, who is one of you, a servant of Christ, saluteth you, always labouring fervently for you in prayers, that ye may stand perfect and complete in all the will of God." Colossians 4:12


In Christ,
John M. Whalen
Are you saying we should not say the sinners prayer because prayer is a work lol hysterical.
 
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JMWHALEN

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Are you saying we should not say the sinners prayer because prayer is a work lol hysterical.
_________________
My comment(bold is my emphasis):

1. It is irrelevant what I say you should say. What I say and what you say should agree with scripture, i.e., Isaiah 8:20, "...what saith the scripture?...(Romans 4:3, Galatians 4:30). Be "...noble..." and "search the scriptures" and see if what I wrote "were so"-check it out in the Holy Bible. I noticed you provided no scripture, but just an opinion-Judges 21:25. Opinions and the truth are independent(Judges 21:25).

2. The only right response to the gospel of Christ is: we are saved by God's grace through faith alone in the Lord Jesus Christ alone based on His finished worked alone at Calvary, and His resurrection 3 days later-1 Cor. 15:1-4. In light of the Saviour's death for our sins and His bodily resurrection, the only issue in salvation is not do, but done. Our responsibility is to believe it. The basis is not our "walk", our "santification", which is what prayer is, but Christ's finished work. The means is not work, but simple faith. Do not confuse "the Christian walk"=service=commitment= "evidence of faith"=SANCTIFICATION(to be set aside for God's use and service) with the doctrine of justification.

3. "Praying the sinner's prayer", as a basis for justification, is nowhere to be found in the Holy Bible. And nowhere will you find anyone in the Holy Bible leading someone else in prayer to be saved-nowhere. Acts 17:11-check out how times the words "believe", "faith", "trust" or employed as pertaining to salvation.

Salvation is a free gift offered to everyone who believes the gospel of 1 Cor, 15:1-4(Romans 6:23, Eph. 2:8-9). In Romans 4:4-5 God clearly declares that faith, and faith alone, is His requirement for justification in His sight. Over 150 verses state that salvation from the debt and penalty of sin is the sole issue of placing one's faith in the Lord Jesus Christ as Saviour.

Do not let your pride("I've been taught this...I've been teaching this...My pastor said this......"), your traditions("We've always practiced this at our church for years!") obscure the truth, and result in you discarding Biblical accuracy on the most important issue anyone and everyone must address. Out terminolgy is faulty if :

-it fails to provide an adequate basis for our faith:

"Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God;.." Romans 3:25

-it implies that something other than faith is necessary for salvation(including prayer):

"Therefore it is of faith, that it might be by grace; to the end the promise might be sure to all the seed; not to that only which is of the law, but to that also which is of the faith of Abraham; who is the father of us all,..." Romans 4:16

-it cause the unbeliever to rely on subjective(as opposed to objective) emotional responses for his/her assurance.

-it fails to declare where we place are hope.

-it fails to recognize man's problem, i.e., sin, and its consequences. That is, "gospel" means "good news." Scripture thus emphasizes that there is "bad news" that man must acknowledge before he/she can comprehend/appreciate both the "dire straits" they are in, and thus embrace the "good news" remedy-the only remedy:

"For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness.." Romans 1:18

Now, I will present the gospel that saves, "...for it is the power of God unto salvation to everyone that believeth...."(Romans 1:16), and "...it is hid to them that are lost"(2 Cor, 4:3):

"Moreover, brethren, I declare unto you the gospel which I preached unto you, which also ye have received, and wherein ye stand; By which also ye are saved, if ye keep in memory what I preached unto you, unless ye have believed in vain. For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received, how that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures: And that he was seen…." 1 Corinthians 15:1-5

"For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek." Romans 1:16
___________________________________________________________________
"….preach the gospel…" Romans 1:15, 10:15, 15:20; 1 Cor. 1:17,9:14, 9:18; 2 Cor. 10:16
"…preach the gospel of Christ…." Romans 15:19
"…the gospel which I preached to you…." 1 Cor. 15:1
'"…preach Christ's gospel…." 2 Cor. 2:12
"…preaching the gospel of Christ…." 2 Cor. 10:14
"…preach any other gospel…." Gal. 1:8,9
"…preached the gospel…" Gal. 4:13
"…the gospel ….which was preached…." Col. 1:23

Going to church/church membership or being "religious" will not save anyone. If you are trusting that you can do anything to merit, earn, buy, or help with your salvation, then you are trusting in a "gospel" that is powerless to save you. The good news today that we are to proclaim is that the Lord Jesus Christ came in the world to "...save sinners…."(1 Tim. 1:15), to die for and justify "…the ungodly…."(Romans 5:6,4:5-notice it says you are a sinner/ungodly when you are saved-this precludes any "self-effort" attempt on "improving" your condition prior to salvation). He paid for all your sins in full 2000 years ago by his death, burial, and resurrection(1 Cor. 15:1-4). Only in the gospel of Christ is there "…the power of God unto salvation." The apostle Paul uses the word "preach"("kerysse") continually. At the time of Paul's writing, a person who proclaimed /published in this sense was referred to as a "keryx", or a "herald". A herald was one sent by his "boss" to proclaim the boss's message publicly. The herald was charged with delivering this message unaltered because it was not his own. He was charged with the responsibility to proclaim it accurately. This was the "earmark" of Paul's gospel ministry.

The content of the gospel:

Proposition 1: "Christ died for our sins"
Scriptural proof is "according to the scriptures"
Physical proof is "he was buried"

Proposition 2: "he rose again the third day"
Scriptural proof is "according to the scriptures"
Physical proof is "And that he was seen of Cephas, then of the twelves: After that he was seen of above five hundred brethren at once….. After that, he was seen of James; then ogf all the apostles. And last of all he was seen of me, also…."

"Christ died for our sins": "Christ" means 'the Anointed One' and demands divinity according to the scriptural understanding of this term("Messiah" is the transliteration of the Hebrew equivalent). That the Lord Jesus Christ "died for our sins" conveys that we are sinners, and thus in need of forgiveness. The word "for"('hyper' in Greek) conveys the idea of "in place of", "on account of", "in behalf of",i.e., to deal with the sin issue .

"according to the scriptures": The "Old Testament" signified, pictured, and prophecied the suffering of God's Anointed one, the LORD's servant(for example, Exodus 12, Lev 16, Psalms 22 and 110, Isaiah 53).

"he was buried": The best evidence of a "death certificate" are "eye witness" accounts. This dispels any such "swoon" theory, since only dead people are buried.

"he arose again the third day": This confirms that the Lord Jesus Christ rose from the dead, and is proof/the "receipt" that God the Father accepted the Lord Jesus Christ's sacrifice. A dead man is not in a position to save anyone, for"…God is not the God of the dead, but of the living"(Mt. 22:32). A Saviour must be alive, "...For I know that my redeemer liveth, and that he shall stand at the latter day upon the earth…."(Job 19:25).
"according to the scriptures": Job 19:25,Psalms 16:8-11, Psalms 110:1. And much of the OT describes the Messiah's reign, which necessitates a rising from the dead(Is. 53, for eg.).

"he was seen": This includes "credible" witnesses

In Christ,

John M. Whalen

 
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JMWHALEN

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Are you saying we should not say the sinners prayer because prayer is a work lol hysterical.

Is confession a work? we cannot be saved without confession.

Romans 10:9 If you confess with your mouth the Lord Jesus, and believe in your heart that God raise him from the dead, you will be saved.
________________-
Think on this:
1. The word "confess" here means "to acknowledge"="agreeing with God"="mental assent." Acknowledge what? That Jesus Christ is "Lord"=God in the flesh=the issue here is His Deity and resurrection, His Deity and what HE has done(not what we are to "do"=works). I leave to you to "search the scriptures" per Acts 17:11. This "acknowledgment" is the mental assent that the Lord Jesus Christ is God. That is, to identify who He is, and what He has done!

2. Notice the chapter 10 surrounding passages, which many do not quote:
(bold my emphasis)

"Brethren, my heart's desire and prayer to God for Israel is, that they might be saved.For I bear them record that they have a zeal of God, but not according to knowledge.For they being ignorant of God's righteousness, and going about to establish their own righteousness, have not submitted themselves unto the righteousness of God.For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to every one that believeth.For Moses describeth the righteousness which is of the law, That the man which doeth those things shall live by them.But the righteousness which is of faith speaketh on this wise, Say not in thine heart, Who shall ascend into heaven? (that is, to bring Christ down from above:)Or, Who shall descend into the deep? (that is, to bring up Christ again from the dead.)But what saith it? The word is nigh thee, even in thy mouth, and in thy heart: that is, the word of faith, which we preach;That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.For the scripture saith, Whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed. For there is no difference between the Jew and the Greek: for the same Lord over all is rich unto all that call upon him.For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher?And how shall they preach, except they be sent? as it is written, How beautiful are the feet of them that preach the gospel of peace, and bring glad tidings of good things! " Romans 10:1-15

Notice the order? You cannot "call", "pray", if you will, until you first believe.


In Christ,

John M. Whalen
 
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darkshadow

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Not to mention that water baptism is a Jewish ritual - like circumcism . If water baptism saves , circumcism saves all the more as it is a comand that goes farther in history to the very time that the Lord gave the promises to Abraham - the promises that has given us a chance for salvation .

Baptism as we know it is not a Jewish ritual like circumcision. In fact, we are told circumcision does not save you, but we are told baptism does forgive sins. You are trying to compare the Law of the Old Testament or Covenant, and the New Covenant, and intertwine them. We are under the commands of the New Testament and those of the Old that Christ "reinstated". The baptism of John the Baptist (John the Baptizer) was a baptism of repentance, not of forgiveness and the gift of the Holy Spirit.
Both of these passages speak of circumcision and how we are no longer under the Law, and as Gentiles especially do not follow the Law.

Acts 15:1-20
Galatians 3:1-25


I believe they maybe helpful.
 
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