Why do non and anti Christians tell Christians how to be Christian?

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keith99

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Somehow Sone important point has not been emphasised:

Christians claim to have some authority that gives them guidance. Now this may vary from group to group. Some are Sola Scriptura, The Catholics at teh least add in the Pope. JW's and Mormans have some additional authority.

But all have their 'rule book'.

A non believer who is well educated enough to know the rules is entitled to point out a violation.

Funny thing is I do not recall anyone ever being there when this happened face to face except when someone was dealing with a hollier than thou attitude from a Christian.
 
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jcook922

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You beat me to, it it is a tit for tat response to Christians that feel like they have the high moral ground to dictate to society how to behave.


I was actually raised Baptist and at about 8 years old started to question the logic of God, by the age of 10 came to the conclusion that the more I was taught the more it was exactly like the fairy tales told to me as a child. One day I told the priest/pastor that God was an illogical idea and only dumb people believed it and was promptly kicked out of the church.

I'd probably kick you out of my church too if I was religious and you said that.
 
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jayem

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Shouldn't you at least do some reading of western history before making an uneducated, boorish statement like this?
Tell me. What is it going to be? Did Christians commit atrocities in the name of religion during the crusades or didn't they? Or did they fight amongst themselves during the crusades? Or did they join together and ruthlessly kill Muslims just to acquire Jerusalem? Or did they lend support to the Byzantine empire when Emperor Alexander was being overrun by Turks?


I'm only referring here to what one Christian group has done to other Christian groups. Do you doubt that there was violent conflict between Catholics and Prostestants? I'll refer you to A World Lit Only By Fire. William Manchester's excellent history of medieval Europe through to the Renaissance. He documents the brutality that occurred on each side as a result of the Reformation. A fundamental cause of the 30 Year's War was Protestant/Catholic conflict. And before the Crusades in the Holy Land was the Albigensian Crusade in the 13th century, where the Roman church tried to stamp out the French Cathars, a sect which it considered heretical. Maybe a million people were killed. I'm sure you know what Calvin did to Michael Servetus for promoting a unitarian God. And read about how the Puritans showed Christian brotherhood to the Quakers in colonial Massachusetts. A colony you remember, that was founded because the Pilgrim sect faced disfavor, if not outright persecution by the Church of England. Right here in the US, the Protestant majority widely discriminated against Roman Catholics throughout much of our history. And whether you think Mormons are Christians or not, I don't have to post references to prove the violence they suffered from other Christians back in the day. (And gave back in kind.)

All I'm saying is that Christians of different theologies have often acted pretty beastly towards each other. Dominant denominations have been particulary intolerant of heterodox minorities. That fact is indisputable. So what example does that set for us non-believers?
 
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SiderealExalt

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It depends on what you mean I think. I don't equate being a good person with Christianity. I think being a decent person is a quality someone can have irrespective of your affiliation with a social group like that. So if I tell a Christian who is being a jerk to cut it out now, I don't consider it telling them how to be a Christian.

If you mean follow your religious principals, I don't think 99.9% of Christianity does that anyway, and probably for the better, as the Bible has some not so good ideas in it. So I'd consider trying to tell a Christian how to be a Christian probably a bad thing and ultimately pointless.
 
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PastorJim

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Going to church and reading the bible does not make you a Christian, much in the same way that standing in a garage does not make you a car.

So then how is one "raised a Christian"? More to the point, how does one "deconvert" from Christianity when Christanity requires being born again, which cannot be revoked because it is a part of the Christian's nature?
 
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PastorJim

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Because non-Christians are the only people who actually bother reading the Bible. Christians have priests who read the Bible for them and spoon-feed them select passages.

And this is why it's so hard for us to take you seriously.

First, we don't have priests. The Bible teaches that the priesthood was abolished by Christ (you can read more about this in Hebrews 8).

Second, I don't know what Christians you're talking to, but the Christans in our church are very much committed to the study of God's word.

Once you get away from ChristanForums, which, admittedly, is a black hole of Christian doctrine, most Christians do study their Bibles and are very knowledgable about it.
 
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PastorJim

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I was actually raised Baptist and at about 8 years old started to question the logic of God, by the age of 10 came to the conclusion that the more I was taught the more it was exactly like the fairy tales told to me as a child. One day I told the priest/pastor that God was an illogical idea and only dumb people believed it and was promptly kicked out of the church.

Right. You were "raised Baptist" and yet, you don't know that Baptists don't have priests? Well, that certainly adds credibility to your story.
 
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keith99

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And read about how the Puritans showed Christian brotherhood to the Quakers in colonial Massachusetts. A colony you remember, that was founded because the Pilgrim sect faced disfavor, if not outright persecution by the Church of England.

If you believe the American Myth. It seem more likely that the Puritans were driven out not becuase others did not tolerate them, but because they did not tolerate others and eventually the others fought back.
 
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Sycophant

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I was raised Christian. I de-converted because although everyone around me claimed to be Christian I could not find Christ in their hearts, words, or actions.

Going to church and reading the bible does not make you a Christian, much in the same way that standing in a garage does not make you a car.

Great quote, it's going to be my sig for a while.
 
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katautumn

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Why do non and anti Christians tell Christians how to be Christian?

Because many Christians are so painfully lacking in behaving in a Christlike fashion that they don't realize what a detriment they are to their witness.

What is the basis for justifying this?
When Christians talk about how they are supposed to be a witness for Christ so that others may be led to him and yet the words and actions of Christians make Christianity unbecoming, someone has to say something.

They even go so far as to quote the Bible often, saying how Christ Jesus dealt with issues and how and why Christians should live their lives.
It must sting when a non-christian knows the Bible better than a believer. I can't tell you how many times I've debated various passages of Scripture with Christians and they'll adamantly claim that no such verse or passage exists. When I refer them to the book and chapter they usually come back with, "okay, so it's there? You're not interpreting it correctly!" They don't even know the Bible.

Why do non and anti Christians feel they have the perspective (and the right) to tell Christians what to do as Christians and how to be a Christian? Or, what it means to be a Christian if, you claim to be one?
Well if this isn't a case of the pot calling the kettle black.

1. Christians have a long history of dictating how others should live, to the extent of executing those engaging in practices deemed "blasphemous". These could include anything from adultery to using science to prove the earth is spherical.

2. Modern-day Christians continue to impose their archaic views on society.


Doesn't this mean that the Bible IS clear on the issues?

At least in terms of how a Christian should be a Christian?
No. It means you guys need to function like normal human beings like the rest of us and worry about your own lives instead of poking around in everyone else's. What's good for the goose, etc, etc.
 
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Polycarp_fan

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You frequently tell atheists what they believe, and even though people try to point out that you're wrong, you never listen.

I was brought up in a very Christian environment, and have read the Bible several times. I also like to read books on theology. So I think I have a very good idea of what Christianity says, and what Christians are expected to believe.

And I used to be an atheist.

And so forth . . .
 
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Polycarp_fan

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I'm only referring here to what one Christian group has done to other Christian groups. Do you doubt that there was violent conflict between Catholics and Prostestants?

Did these people have copies of the Gospel to lead them in their behaviors?

This is getting good.

I'll refer you to A World Lit Only By Fire. William Manchester's excellent history of medieval Europe through to the Renaissance.

And how many of the common people had copies of the New Testament?

We're getting warmer.

He documents the brutality that occurred on each side as a result of the Reformation.

Politics or Gospel preaching caused this brutality?

A fundamental cause of the 30 Year's War was Protestant/Catholic conflict.

We now have New Testaments readily available. And we are getting even warmer on how Christians should be Christian. "Even," non and anti Christians declare this.

And before the Crusades in the Holy Land . . .

Which was in response to Muslims going to war against Christians first.

But go on . . .


. . . was the Albigensian Crusade in the 13th century, where the Roman church tried to stamp out the French Cathars, a sect which it considered heretical.

How would anyone know what was or wasn't heretical without studying or following the written guide known as the New Testament?

And we're getting down to modern think.

Maybe a million people were killed.

A million people? In medieval europe? Sounds more like news from MSNBC.

I'm sure you know what Calvin did to Michael Servetus for promoting a unitarian God.

He was nice to an enemy? You know, like Jesus preached?

And read about how the Puritans showed Christian brotherhood to the Quakers in colonial Massachusetts.

Massachusetts? Where men can now marry men? I guess not following the Gospel is common in Massacusetts.

A colony you remember, that was founded because the Pilgrim sect faced disfavor, if not outright persecution by the Church of England.

Was that the Church founded so a King could get divorced and marry another woman?

Right here in the US, the Protestant majority widely discriminated against Roman Catholics throughout much of our history.

Do these people not read their Bibles, or listen to non and anti Christians tell them what Chriostians are supposed to do? Per Jesus?

And whether you think Mormons are Christians or not, I don't have to post references to prove the violence they suffered from other Christians back in the day. (And gave back in kind.)

It seems the word "fundamentalist" should mean; person that doesn't read the Bible.

All I'm saying is that Christians of different theologies have often acted pretty beastly towards each other.

The Nazi's (measuring people by Darwinian based eugenics) and the Communists (Marxist-atheists) piled up hundreds of times more corpses in just a few years, what even centuries for religious people couldn't even come close to. But, your point is well taken.

Dominant denominations have been particulary intolerant of heterodox minorities. That fact is indisputable.

Absolutely indisputable.

So what example does that set for us non-believers?

That there is a indisputable way to BE a Christian. BASED on the living example, sayings and preaching of Christ Jesus and his missionaries known as Apostles.

They go by Evangelical in the 21st century.

Thank you for a very good response to my OP.
 
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OphidiaPhile

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Right. You were "raised Baptist" and yet, you don't know that Baptists don't have priests? Well, that certainly adds credibility to your story.

I put priest/pastor because I was unsure what to call him because it has been 30 years since I have been in a church.
 
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Polycarp_fan

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Because many Christians are so painfully lacking in behaving in a Christlike fashion that they don't realize what a detriment they are to their witness.

Preach it! preacher. You sound exactly like every Christian pastor I have ever heard give a sermon. EVERY single one.

Your statement here is a good one. This comes to my mind so quickly when I see Fred Phelps or Mel White and Gene Robinson doing things against what Jesus and the Apostles taught.

I admire how conservative a view you have of scripture truth.

I started this thread for very serious reasons. And actually it was out of respect for the very conservative views that non and anti Christians nhave towards what the Bible says.

When Christians talk about how they are supposed to be a witness for Christ so that others may be led to him and yet the words and actions of Christians make Christianity unbecoming, someone has to say something.

Jesus and Peter mention this.

It must sting when a non-christian knows the Bible better than a believer.

Why? In the Gospels, Satan quoted scripture effortlessly.

I can't tell you how many times I've debated various passages of Scripture with Christians and they'll adamantly claim that no such verse or passage exists.

Wanna try me? Or the millions of other Bible-believing Evagelicals out there? I'll bet we agree on a lot of things.

When I refer them to the book and chapter they usually come back with, "okay, so it's there? You're not interpreting it correctly!" They don't even know the Bible.[

C',on now, you may indeed be interpreting it wrongly. You may not know the Bible eoither and are just as quilty of being taught error as any pew-siting Christian. Start another threasd with some of your scriptures? I mean that.

Well if this isn't a case of the pot calling the kettle black.

I'll bet your wrong here.

1. Christians have a long history of dictating how others should live, to the extent of executing those engaging in practices deemed "blasphemous".

Oh really? Show me one IN the New Testament? Or, show me one in the New testament that teaches that we are to kill non and anti's? Your good at bible knowledge you say.

These could include anything from adultery to using science to prove the earth is spherical.

Show me.

2. Modern-day Christians continue to impose their archaic views on society.

You mean like being a good father or mother? That's outdated? I'll need some scripture for your accusation.

No. It means you guys need to function like normal human beings like the rest of us and worry about your own lives instead of poking around in everyone else's. What's good for the goose, etc, etc.

How do Christians become something other than "normal human beings?"

Are we evolving into something else? I as a Christian-human being, always thought science was a good place to prove what normal is.

I and the Bible are wrong there?

What science books are YOU reading? All the ones I heve ever read, even the ones just coming out show complete agreement with what Christians are.
 
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PastorJim

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A & S died (of fear, apparently), because they disobeyed the disciples by not sharing their goods.

First, you cited this passage as some sort of evidence that Christians execute "non and antis [Christians]". The passage never says this.

Second, did you even bother to read this passage? They didn't die of fright and they didn't die because they "didn't share their goods". They died because God killed them for lying to the Holy Spirit.

In a thread where non-Christians are trying to convince us that they know the Bible better than we do, you're not exactly helping your side.
 
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