Are Jews saved?

It's as if you take one verse of the Bible and use it to denounce the rest of the Bible

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Who are you talking to?  From reading this, it could be a number of people.

 

Abraham and Lazarus are an example of such a thing. Lazarus was a poor man on the street, and Abraham passed him everyday and didn't help him although he probably obeyed and practiced every law of Moses.

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Can you please give me both chapter and verse?  I'm thinking that you have the OT and the NT confused.

 

I'm getting tired of copying out all this Scripture because you never read it anyway

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Who? Like I've said in another room, it's easier to attract bees with honey rather than vinegar.

I'll finish with this.  If you have faith, you're going to be compelled to do good works, because it's what the Lord inspires you to do.  It's not within human nature to do works on our own, from a sincere heart.  And, it's not just a matter of "doing good things".  It has to be with a heart that is for the Lord, in which He encourages.

Originally posted by Theresa
Abraham and Lazarus are an example of such a thing. Lazarus was a poor man on the street, and Abraham passed him everyday and didn't help him although he probably obeyed and practiced every law of Moses.

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Abraham was a heathen.  He was Chaldean.  He didn't practice the Law.  He was out in the desert living a heathen's life.  God came to him and said "this is what I'm going to do, and this is how it's going to happen."  He didn't ask for Abraham's permission.  He just said what He would do and then He did it.  Abraham was saved by grace alone.  You might try reading Romans 4.  Pay particular attention to Romans 4:4.

God bless

Luke 16:19 - "There was once a rich man who dressed in the most expensive clothes and lived in great luxury every day. There was also a poor man named Lazarus, covered with sores, who used to be brought to the rich man's door, hoping to eat the bits of food that fell from the rich man's table. Even the dogs would come and lick his sores. The poor mand died and was carried by the angels to sit beside Abraham at the...."

-and thus I realized my mistake. The rich man's name was not Abraham. Sorry!

- notice this verse say that the rich man did not get to heaven and his only fault according to this passage is that he was rich and failed to help Lazarus.


I directed my post mostly to Reformationist.

Thanx, Luv
Theresa

Originally posted by Theresa
- notice this verse say that the rich man did not get to heaven and his only fault according to this passage is that he was rich and failed to help Lazarus.


I directed my post mostly to Reformationist.

Thanx, Luv
Theresa

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Please tell me you are not now saying that had the rich man helped Lazarus he would be saved because of that.  Regardless of what faults the passage lists as the man's sins he, like everyone else was born in sin, thus he was born separated from God.  It is God who reconciles us by His grace.  It is not our giving of money, or anything else, that saves us.

God bless

The Corporal Works of Mercy

To feed the hungry.
To give drink to the thirsty.
To clothe the naked.
To visit and ransom the captives.
To shelter the homelss.
To visit the sick.
To bury the dead.

You are basically telling me that if I do none of these things than I will still be welcome in heaven because I believe in Jesus Christ. Good Luck!! Even Satan and his demons recognize Jesus as the Lord.

I agree that this is a very dangerous teaching!!

These things encompass God's commandment, "Love thy neighbor as thyself!" You might as well say that we don't need to obey the commandments either!!! (edited out flaming comment. Please feel free to debate your Theology while respecting the rights of others to debate and hold different views) We are to be merciful as Christ is merciful which encompasses all of the Corporal and Temporal works of Mercy!!! If we are not merciful then we will be judged by that same standard!!!

Theresa

Correction: Corporal and Spiritual Works of Mercy (not Temporal)

Theresa

Originally posted by Theresa
The Corporal Works of Mercy

To feed the hungry.
To give drink to the thirsty.
To clothe the naked.
To visit and ransom the captives.
To shelter the homelss.
To visit the sick.
To bury the dead.

You are basically telling me that if I do none of these things than I will still be welcome in heaven because I believe in Jesus Christ. Good Luck!! Even Satan and his demons recognize Jesus as the Lord.

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You're still hung up on the idea that you're welcome in Heaven because of something you do.  You're welcome in Heaven for one reason, and one reason only, because of the work of Christ.  You're works, while good things, if done with the right motive, no more secure your salvation for you then does saying some silly little prayer.

These things encompass God's commandment, "Love thy neighbor as thyself!"

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I never said don't do those things.  What I said was, they aren't the reason you're saved or welcome in Heaven.

You might as well say that we don't need to obey the commandments either!!!

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Yeah.  That's what I'm saying.

You could maybe call what you teach a liscence to do evil, because we don't need to do good to be saved!!

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Hello?  Mod?  Anyone?

God bless

1) You will not post any messages that harrass, insult, belittle, threaten or flame another member or guest. You may discuss another member's beliefs but there will be no personal attacks on the member himself or herself.

I apologize but I don't see the problem.

I respect that he believes that but is it not the truth that what it boils down to is that I don't need to do good to be saved, I can do evil as long as I believe in Jesus. Is that not the truth of it. Hello! Can anybody tell me that it's not true?? Am I accursed, am I a liar? I respect that this is a multi-denominational forum, but when push comes to shove then we just call in a Moderator and the topic is done. Please, somebody tell me where the lie is??? I understand that some thoughts are discouraged because they are opinions or are untrue but please tell me what I said that was untrue!

Is it not true that if you say you get to heaven by believing in Jesus Christ, then you can do evil and believe in JC and still get to heaven.

I repeat, where is the Lie??? Why is the truth considered flaming. He is still welcome to debate the issue, no flame intended.

Thanx, Luv
Theresa

Originally posted by Theresa
I can do evil as long as I believe in Jesus. Is that not the truth of it.

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Uh...no.  Who ever said that?  Certainly not me.  I said your good deeds aren't why you are saved.  They are a result of your salvation.

Theresa, I don't have a problem with the fact that you don't agree with me.  None of the Catholics on this MB, and many of the Protestants, disagree with what I believe.  It's not that you don't think it's the truth.  It's that you felt the need to express that disagreement in a ungodly way.  I don't agree with your views.  Does that give me the right to say that what you teach is a license to do evil?  Of course not.

God bless

The point is that what happens when you aren't doing good? Are you not saved? Is eating breakfast a good work? Is eating a little too much a sin that you can loose your salvation from? There is grey in this life and because of it if you say you can loose your salvation then chances are, you've already lost it and don't know it yet, becuase every action you will do is either wrong, or right, no grey with God.

Except we are to confess and repent to be reconciled with God whenever we falter by mortal sin (mortal vs venial sin). We believe that if we die with unconfessed mortal sin we will not see God, however, if we die with venial sin, we can still be purged in purgatory and still see God, however, there are those who have done God's will perfectly and at the end of their life have been fully sanctified which we call saints, the elect. I am not one of those, yet, but I can be. I read that someone asked St.Francis what it takes to become a saint and he said, "will it." You have to want to become a saint and it is possible with God although many of my friends think it's impossible to become sanctified and unnecessary and that to repent of your sins is unnecessary and unrealistic.

1 John 5:16-17 - "If you see your brother commit a sin that does not lead to death, you should pray to God, who will give him life. This applies to those WHOSE SINS DO NOT LEAD TO DEATH [venial]. But THERE IS SIN WHICH LEADS TO DEATH [mortal], and I do not say that you should pray to God about that. All wrongdoing is sin, BUT THERE IS SIN WHICH DOES NOT LEAD TO DEATH." [degrees of sin ditinguished]

"Try to be at peace with everyone, and try to live a HOLY LIFE, BECAUSE NO ONE WILL SEE THE LORD WITHOUT IT." Heb 12:14

I went through a phase where everyday I would be scared that I was going to die and go to hell until I came back to Christ and now I throw myself on the font of his mercy and hope that heaven can be possible for me. That is trust in the Lord and an example of a holy 'fear of the Lord.' He can cast us into hell if in his perfect justice he thinks we deserve it but we must keep striving for the goal, which is heaven and trust in his mercy. That is why we don't see the reception of the Holy Spirit and salvation as a one shot deal. We believe that the "application of the reception of the Holy Spirit" instead of just being a good "feeling'  is a call to repentence and to a life of sacrifice and to pure, undiluted love. My friend said, "he touched my head and I received the Holy Spirit and I started speaking in tongues and it was amazing, " and in my life I received and returned to Christ and the Holy Spirit and I went to the Cathedral and I bowed my head and I fell on my knees and I prayed for forgiveness, and then I went into the confessional and confessed sins that I didn't want to even speak of, and Christ speaking through the priest , absolved me of my sins and then I got up and went back to my pew and gave Christ my heart and I stayed for mass, afterwhich we prayed the rosary and I prayed like I had never prayed before and my body was speaking but my mind was present with Christ and when I was done I never wanted to leave that place because I knew that if I did, I would sin again, but I had to go out there and it was a heavy burden but I did it and I have sinned since then and I have seperated and ignored God since then and he keeps leaving the door unlocked for me to come back in because he is merciful and as long as we keep repenting and confessing with true contrition and a real desire to sin no more, then he will keep forgiving us because he does know that we are sinful creatures and I know that his mercy is infinite.

A favored prayer of mine,"O Blood and Water which gushed forth from the Heart of Jesus as a font of Mercy for us, I trust in you."


My personal opinion is that you have to either be sanctified or on the road to sactification when you die in order to see the Lord. "To whom much is given, much is expected, " in my mind says to whom much knowledge and truth and love is given, much is expected of him. You don't expect a pagan, who has no knowledge of the truth to do great things for God, but to a Christian who has knowledge of the truth, much works of mercy are expected and in my belief, will be required on Judgement Day.

 

Here's a quote from my favorite Saint, Saint Faustina, "Write, My daughter, that I am mercy itself for the contrite soul. A soul's greatest wrethchedness does not enkindle me with wrath; but rather, My Heart is moved towards it with great mercy. 

Oh my Jesus, give me strength to endure suffering so that I may not make a wry face when I drink the cup of bitterness.  Help me Yourself to make my sacrifice pleasing to You.  May it not be tainted by my self-love, even though it extend over many years.  May purity of intention make it pleasing to You, fresh and full of life.  This life of mine is a ceaseless struggle, a constant effort to do Your holy will; but may everything that is in me, both my misery and my strength, give praise to You, O Lord." (Divine Mercy in my Soul, Saint Faustina Kowalska written approx 1933)

I just thought this would be a good glimpse into the heart of someone we consider to be a Saint.

I'm rambling again, sorry!!
Thanx, Luv
Theresa

I wanted to add that Christ said we can judge a tree by it's fruit. A bad tree will produce bad fruit, a good tree will produce good fruit. In revelations we hear of a people who are neither hot nor cold, they produce neither good nor bad fruit and Christ declared them worst of all. Does that sound like he declared that the good fruit is unnecessary for he thought that the ones who produced no fruit were the worst ("how I wish you were either one or the other"), and he said he would spit them out of his mouth (Rev 3:15)?

Thanx,Luv
Theresa

"Except we are to confess and repent to be reconciled with God whenever we falter by mortal sin "

So God's forgiveness is conditional? I don't think so, not for the christian

"You have to want to become a saint and it is possible with God although many of my friends "

This is one reason I'm not catholic

"I wanted to add that Christ said we can judge a tree by it's fruit. "

I totally agree, one thing christians tend to forget is that a tree, even a great one, does NOT produce fruit year round There are points where production is halted in order to grow and perserver through a storm, winter, etc. That is why I still claim once saved always saved

I didn't mind your rambling at all theresa, it gave us a great catholic viewpoint on this topic.

"Turn away from your sins and BE BAPTISED , and God will forgive your sins."  As it is written in the book of the prophet Isaiah:

"Someone is shouting in the desert: 'Get the road ready for the Lord; make a straight path for him to travel!  Every valley must be filled up, every hill and mountain levelled off.  The winding roads must be made straight, and the rough paths made smooth.  All mankind will see God's salvation!'"

Crowds of people came out to John to be baptised by him.  "You snakes!" he said to them.  "Who told you could escape from the punishment God is about to send.  Do those things that will show that you have turned from your sins. And don't start saying among yourselves that Abraham is your ancestor .  I tell you that God can take these stones and make descendants for Abraham!  The axe is ready to cut down the trees at the roots; every tree that does not bear good fruit will be cut down and thrown in the fire." Luke 3:3-10

This verse shows some Jews coming without repentence, expecting to avoid punishment and saying that they are safe because they are a descendent of Abraham and are circumcised.  John calls them snakes and then he talks about those who don't produce good fruit, they will be thrown into the fire because it is necessary to practice what you preach.  This verse shows that faith and works are necessary for salvation! 


Then the people ask him what they are to do and he tells them.  He doesn't say nothing, just believe, he says "whoever has two shirts MUST give one to the man who has none, and whoever has food MUST share it." etc, etc. 

"So then, whoever disobeys even the least important of the commandments and teaches others to do the same, will be least in the Kingdom of heaven.  On the other hand whoever obeys the Law and teaches others to do the same, will be great in the Kindom of heaven.  I tell you, then, that you will be able to enter the Kingdom of heaven only if you are more faithful than the teachers of the Law and the Pharisees in DOING WHAT GOD REQUIRES." Matt 5:19-20

 

Thanx, Luv

Theresa

I'm sorry, I just wanted to add something for consideration. I'm not saying that God doesn't want us to be with him in heaven if we're not perfect or a saint,he desires all men to be saved so that's not it. What it is is that we couldn't bear to see his face if we are not holy. Evil runs away screaming because they can't bear to see God. Even Moses couldn't see God's face and he was a humble and righteous man. We are to be with God for all eternity, "strive for the holy life without which we cannot see God" because God is all Holy and if we are not purified we cannot bear him. If I saw him today I would hide myself. I am not ready today, I know that. I could not bear to see him today because he would be perfect and he would give himself to me completely and I would be incapable to give myself back and it would destroy me. I think that many people, once they recognize who God truly is, would rather burn in hell than face him or accept his mercy. If there were no means of purification on earth or purgatory, by means of self-sacrifice and suffering then we could never be capable of seeing him.

I'm sorry, that's not a perfect explanation but I just realized that it might be something that is rarely touched upon but could go a long way to understanding.

Perhaps we could start a thread to understanding sanctification?

Peace,
Theresa/ Rebecca

Sorry, thought of something else.

Humility - the state or quality of being humble; freedom from pride and arrogence; lowliness of mind; a modest estimate of one's own worth; a sense of one's own unworthingess through imperfection and sinfulness; self-abasement, humbleness

This is what humility is, the knowledge of how very unworthy we are compared to God's perfection.

This is why we must give up any pride and arrogence and even our own wills because the only way our wills mean anything is if they are united to God's will and God wills us all to be saints.

This is why we must rid ourselves of attatchments and sin, we must keep our houses clean if we want God to fill us with graces. If we clean our house and make room for God he will give us so many graces that it will fill us and overflow to others.

This is why it is so unthinkable to us that people say that they are going to heaven because to us, the one that is the most humble wouldn't dare consider himself worthy enough for heaven. The humble one is the one whom the Lord will elevate. By saying that you are going to heaven you are saying that the Lord has already commended you. We are all going to stand before Christ on Judgement day and the sword of truth coming out of his mouth will either caress us or cut us to the quick.

2Cor 10:18, "For it is when the Lord thinks well of a person that he is really approved and not when he thinks well of himself."

Of course, the more humble one is, the more hopeful one is and the more one will do for the glory of Jesus Christ so therefore will be commended by God for it's humility and the ways it has abased itself for Christ and for others because it had seen Christ in the poor and the naked. Christ will tell it that it had given him drink, and it will say I never saw you Christ, I never gave you food, and Christ will say that it gave him food and drink when it gave food and drink to the poor.


Thanx, Luv
Theresa

"This verse shows that faith and works are necessary for salvation!
"

Nope, it does nothing of the sort. If you want to work your way to heaven, fine, I'll get in the way of Christ, which is grace

"If there were no means of purification on earth or purgatory, by means of self-sacrifice and suffering then we could never be capable of seeing him.
"

I'm reminded of an old hymn..I'm washed as white as snow in God's sight. This is why i can approach the throne of God with confidience the the respect he deserves. I'm white by the blood of the lamb, not matter what i do, I'll always be white because I fully accept the sacrifice God made for me and I know that I will NEVER be able to earn it or do enough works to compare to it. Its TOTALLY grace, that's what the bible teaches.

Gal 2:15 We who are jews by birth and not gentile sinners know that a man is NOT justified by observing the law (ie works) but by FAITH in Jesus Christ. So we, too have put our faith in Christ Jesus that we MAY BE JUSTIFIED by FAITH in Christ and NOT by ovserving the law, because by observing the law no one will be justified."

Sorry T, its not by works, its by faith period.