Atheist ethics, atheist values

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allhart

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allhart all I hear is a tirade of opinion rather than a reasoned argument.

please try harder.
Well that depends on your willingness to respond to the statements of truth.read James 1:22-26 in adding to the prier statement.
 
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Braunwyn

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Well that depends on your willingness to respond to the statements of truth.
hmmm, statements of truth. James Joyce is the first that comes to mind, specifically Finnegans Wake. allhart, you may appreciate his writing style...he he

"riverrun, past Eve and Adam’s, from swerve of shore to bend of bay, brings us by a commodius vicus of recirculation back to Howth Castle and Environs.

Sir Tristram, violer d’amores, fr’over the short sea, had passen-core rearrived from North Armorica on this side the scraggy isthmus of Europe Minor to wielderfight his penisolate war: nor had topsawyer’s rocks by the stream Oconee exaggerated themselse to Laurens County’s gorgios while they went doublin their mumper all the time: nor avoice from afire bellowsed mishe mishe to tauftauf thuartpeatrick not yet, though venissoon after, had a kidscad buttended a bland old isaac: not yet, though all’s fair in vanessy, were sosie sesthers wroth with twone nathandjoe. Rot a peck of pa’s malt had Jhem or Shen brewed by arclight and rory end to the regginbrow was to be seen ringsome on the aquaface.

The fall (bababadalgharaghtakamminarronnkonnbronntonner-ronntuonnthunntrovarrhounawnskawntoohoohoordenenthur— nuk!) of a once wallstrait oldparr is retaled early in bed and later on life down through all christian minstrelsy. The great fall of the offwall entailed at such short notice the pftjschute of Finnegan, erse solid man, that the humptyhillhead of humself prumptly sends an unquiring one well to the west in quest of his tumptytumtoes: and their upturnpikepointandplace is at the knock out in the park where oranges have been laid to rust upon the green since dev-linsfirst loved livvy"

http://ebooks.adelaide.edu.au/j/joyce/james/j8f/complete.html
 
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allhart

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hmmm, statements of truth. James Joyce is the first that comes to mind, specifically Finnegans Wake. allhart, you may appreciate his writing style...he he

"riverrun, past Eve and Adam’s, from swerve of shore to bend of bay, brings us by a commodius vicus of recirculation back to Howth Castle and Environs.

Sir Tristram, violer d’amores, fr’over the short sea, had passen-core rearrived from North Armorica on this side the scraggy isthmus of Europe Minor to wielderfight his penisolate war: nor had topsawyer’s rocks by the stream Oconee exaggerated themselse to Laurens County’s gorgios while they went doublin their mumper all the time: nor avoice from afire bellowsed mishe mishe to tauftauf thuartpeatrick not yet, though venissoon after, had a kidscad buttended a bland old isaac: not yet, though all’s fair in vanessy, were sosie sesthers wroth with twone nathandjoe. Rot a peck of pa’s malt had Jhem or Shen brewed by arclight and rory end to the regginbrow was to be seen ringsome on the aquaface.

The fall (bababadalgharaghtakamminarronnkonnbronntonner-ronntuonnthunntrovarrhounawnskawntoohoohoordenenthur— nuk!) of a once wallstrait oldparr is retaled early in bed and later on life down through all christian minstrelsy. The great fall of the offwall entailed at such short notice the pftjschute of Finnegan, erse solid man, that the humptyhillhead of humself prumptly sends an unquiring one well to the west in quest of his tumptytumtoes: and their upturnpikepointandplace is at the knock out in the park where oranges have been laid to rust upon the green since dev-linsfirst loved livvy"

http://ebooks.adelaide.edu.au/j/joyce/james/j8f/complete.html
Hi Braunwyn Long time no speak.Ya know I appreciate you and your responses. I hope things are going well these days for ya.
 
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Braunwyn

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Hi Braunwyn Long time no speak.Ya know I appreciate you and your responses. I hope things are going well these days for ya.
Hi allhart. Things are going well these days and I hope your days have been easy. Any way, I hope you spend a little time and chew on Joyce, given his christian referances. It's a real pleasure that his work is on the net for free.
 
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TuxThePenguin

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Well that depends on your willingness to respond to the statements of truth.read James 1:22-26 in adding to the prier statement.

I don't have any belief that the bible is in anyway the writing of a god either directly or through revelation. As such I don't consider bible quotes in and of themselves an argument.

Please address TooCurious' post point by point and I'll be intellectually satisfied. ;)
 
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allhart

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I don't have any belief that the bible is in anyway the writing of a god either directly or through revelation. As such I don't consider bible quotes in and of themselves an argument.

Please address TooCurious' post point by point and I'll be intellectually satisfied. ;)
Well What do you live for. What is your purpose driven life.What do you put your hope in. As we know an average life span is 75Yrs.=27375 days. Using me as an example at age 37 ,I have used 13505 days out of 27375 leaving me if in good health 13870 days. Season wise leaving me 38 summers left.I find my hope in Historical witnesses of 500 that Jesus risen from the grave and much more. That he Gave his life in the place of mine instead. From no meirt of my own ,but as a free gift of geneousty of his love for me.(Grace) He love's you as well. For you Know of himself for he made himself aware to his presence. for you didn't awake one mornin and say I will persue God. No, He persued you first.
 
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TooCurious

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People just don't get it. You have smoke in your eye's and can't see past yourself and what you want,So you truly don't know what you ask for and give up. Liberty with out law / boundary is anarchy, liberty to defy law is rebellion,but liberty limited by law is a cornerstone of civilization.God and his people have tried to help people understand that freedom is what creates life. That's what he intended us to have from the beginning.America has become paralyzed in a great global desert of trouble in suffering, repression and tyranny. Today a precious heritage of our freedom is being challenged internally by the erosion of our culture. (Moral Decay)

I'm unclear as to how this pertains to anything I actually said in the post you quoted.
 
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allhart

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I'm unclear as to how this pertains to anything I actually said in the post you quoted.
Ha TooCurious, how things going. Well, In speaking frankly.The Christian migrated here and understanding the true meaning of what it means to be free.Formatted the constitution based on that all men are created equal and much of the understand came from the word of God/bible and there experience of the king of England in contrast. How ever in our arrogance in peace. We have to understand basic laws of truth which equals Principle of common ground.In which to have understanding of liberty's that we should see to hold on to you have had to have lived in persecution. Generational out of ignorance we give up what we have not fully experienced. Boldly stated If you don't understand the bible and our forefathers.( On the bases of liberty) How do you expect to understand the constitution.Liberty is based on creating life not smothering,suppression,tyranny.Based on roles of basic natural logical laws.With a moral out look. In a reality of Right and wrong.So
does this explain more in understanding the lateral posting Simplicity of laws are basic in morality. Giving us limited laws and freedom. Not controlling every agenda and variables people have. To Govern people fairly and limited by law can only come from Morality based laws.
 
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TuxThePenguin

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Well What do you live for. What is your purpose driven life.What do you put your hope in. As we know an average life span is 75Yrs.=27375 days. Using me as an example at age 37 ,I have used 13505 days out of 27375 leaving me if in good health 13870 days. Season wise leaving me 38 summers left.I find my hope in Historical witnesses of 500 that Jesus risen from the grave and much more. That he Gave his life in the place of mine instead. From no meirt of my own ,but as a free gift of geneousty of his love for me.(Grace) He love's you as well. For you Know of himself for he made himself aware to his presence. for you didn't awake one mornin and say I will persue God. No, He persued you first.

For the record I find that following the golden rule whilst trying to make the world better In what small way I can whilst I enjoy time my friends and family is enough for me.

I'll ignore the rest of your post as - in line with my last post I don't believe any of it.
 
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allhart

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For the record I find that following the golden rule whilst trying to make the world better In what small way I can whilst I enjoy time my friends and family is enough for me.

I'll ignore the rest of your post as - in line with my last post I don't believe any of it.
Well, I'm sorry you base your life on Just how you feel. To what you believe.Looking at logical thinking there is quit the difference in to aspects of life. To the natural living to the spiritual living. To speak frankly in do respecting you ,however to believe there is no creator of it all/God is to be one or the other. A fool or in denial and I don't take you as a fool!
 
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jcook922

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Well What do you live for. What is your purpose driven life.What do you put your hope in. As we know an average life span is 75Yrs.=27375 days. Using me as an example at age 37 ,I have used 13505 days out of 27375 leaving me if in good health 13870 days. Season wise leaving me 38 summers left.I find my hope in Historical witnesses of 500 that Jesus risen from the grave and much more. That he Gave his life in the place of mine instead. From no meirt of my own ,but as a free gift of geneousty of his love for me.(Grace) He love's you as well. For you Know of himself for he made himself aware to his presence. for you didn't awake one mornin and say I will persue God. No, He persued you first.

I don't know about you, but Life is my drive. I live for life because I find it interesting, I find my experiences of the good and the bad, and the knowledge I gain, and the rat race that is human existance profoundly interesting and worth sticking around for.

Do you find life so uninteresting that all you can do is dedicate your thoughts to the afterlife? Sounds like a waste to me.
 
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TuxThePenguin

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Well, I'm sorry you base your life on Just how you feel. To what you believe.Looking at logical thinking there is quit the difference in to aspects of life. To the natural living to the spiritual living. To speak frankly in do respecting you ,however to believe there is no creator of it all/God is to be one or the other. A fool or in denial and I don't take you as a fool!

You misinterpreted my post somewhat is I don't base my life on just what I feel. Are you not ignoring my reference to the 'golden rule'?

I have seen no compelling evidence for a creator God. Intellectually I am not overly concerned with issues of first cause, I have no belief in a 'spirit' or an independent 'soul'.

If you can show that my beliefs are unreasonable then you can call me a fool until then please desist.
 
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allhart

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You misinterpreted my post somewhat is I don't base my life on just what I feel. Are you not ignoring my reference to the 'golden rule'?

I have seen no compelling evidence for a creator God. Intellectually I am not overly concerned with issues of first cause, I have no belief in a 'spirit' or an independent 'soul'.

If you can show that my beliefs are unreasonable then you can call me a fool until then please desist.
Well you haven't disproved him either. Why don't you Look to disprove him in open minded logical thinking. Start with the building blocks of life like the( atom) ,its energy and its source of energy.Their is so much to look at ,but pick your interests and not the pious storm to no ware. The case for Christ by Lee Strobel As an atheistic Journalist and his findings. In a historical view of witness. May be a start for you.
 
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TooCurious

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Ha TooCurious, how things going.

Not bad, thank you. How are things with you?

Well, In speaking frankly.The Christian migrated here and understanding the true meaning of what it means to be free.

Well, in New England and some other parts of the Northeast, colonies were indeed formed by people seeking religious freedom. However, other colonies (such as Virginia) were founded largely to pursue business ventures, and Georgia was initially a penal colony. What you're presenting is a very incomplete picture of colonial America. Even then, many of the religiously-founded colonies did not advocate freedom of religion for all, but only for their own sect; those who were more accepting of religious freedom for all (such as Roger Williams, who was exiled from Massachusetts for his beliefs) were notable exceptions.

Formatted the constitution based on that all men are created equal and much of the understand came from the word of God/bible and there experience of the king of England in contrast.

Actually, much of their understanding came from Enlightenment political philosophy. Exactly what parts of the Constitution do you believed to be influenced by the Bible? Because I'm really not seeing it.

How ever in our arrogance in peace. We have to understand basic laws of truth which equals Principle of common ground.In which to have understanding of liberty's that we should see to hold on to you have had to have lived in persecution. Generational out of ignorance we give up what we have not fully experienced.

I would agree that we should not be so quick to surrender certain essential liberties -- or to take them away from others.

Boldly stated If you don't understand the bible and our forefathers.( On the bases of liberty) How do you expect to understand the constitution.

Presumably, by understanding the historical and cultural climate of the time and Enlightenment political philosophy. The writings of Paine, Locke, and Rousseau should prove very helpful in that regard -- as, in fact, should the letters and writings of the authors of the Constitution and the founders of this country. After all, the Constitution is not, as far as I can tell, based on the Bible in any meaningful way.

Liberty is based on creating life not smothering,suppression,tyranny.

Wait. How exactly is liberty supposed to be based on "creating life"? I was under the impression that liberty was about protecting the life, liberty, and property of the individual against the arbitrary and particular will of the majority.

Based on roles of basic natural logical laws.With a moral out look. In a reality of Right and wrong.

Wait, again. Now you're introducing a new concept ("morality-based laws") that doesn't seem connected with anything that you've said before. And there's an important question here that you're not answering: WHOSE morality? That's what the topic of this entire thread has been about: different people and groups have different moral standards. We need certain basic laws and restrictions to keep society functioning, but beyond those, how is it valid to force one particular group's set of moral beliefs onto other people who may not agree with those beliefs?

So
does this explain more in understanding the lateral posting Simplicity of laws are basic in morality. Giving us limited laws and freedom. Not controlling every agenda and variables people have. To Govern people fairly and limited by law can only come from Morality based laws.

No, I'm afraid it doesn't explain at all. Laws and morality are (and must be) two separate things. We have laws to keep a certain general order to society and preserve the ability to have everyday interactions. Laws against murder exist to protect the citizens and to keep order, not because murder is "morally wrong" (although it is). There is no moral imperative associated with driving on the right side of the road in America, or driving on the left side of the road in other parts of the world; the laws simply exist to keep traffic orderly and to help prevent accidents. Law should not be derived from the particular moral code of a given individual or group; that is the exact opposite of fair governance.
 
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allhart

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Not bad, thank you. How are things with you?



Well, in New England and some other parts of the Northeast, colonies were indeed formed by people seeking religious freedom. However, other colonies (such as Virginia) were founded largely to pursue business ventures, and Georgia was initially a penal colony. What you're presenting is a very incomplete picture of colonial America. Even then, many of the religiously-founded colonies did not advocate freedom of religion for all, but only for their own sect; those who were more accepting of religious freedom for all (such as Roger Williams, who was exiled from Massachusetts for his beliefs) were notable exceptions.



Actually, much of their understanding came from Enlightenment political philosophy. Exactly what parts of the Constitution do you believed to be influenced by the Bible? Because I'm really not seeing it.



I would agree that we should not be so quick to surrender certain essential liberties -- or to take them away from others.



Presumably, by understanding the historical and cultural climate of the time and Enlightenment political philosophy. The writings of Paine, Locke, and Rousseau should prove very helpful in that regard -- as, in fact, should the letters and writings of the authors of the Constitution and the founders of this country. After all, the Constitution is not, as far as I can tell, based on the Bible in any meaningful way.



Wait. How exactly is liberty supposed to be based on "creating life"? I was under the impression that liberty was about protecting the life, liberty, and property of the individual against the arbitrary and particular will of the majority.



Wait, again. Now you're introducing a new concept ("morality-based laws") that doesn't seem connected with anything that you've said before. And there's an important question here that you're not answering: WHOSE morality? That's what the topic of this entire thread has been about: different people and groups have different moral standards. We need certain basic laws and restrictions to keep society functioning, but beyond those, how is it valid to force one particular group's set of moral beliefs onto other people who may not agree with those beliefs?



No, I'm afraid it doesn't explain at all. Laws and morality are (and must be) two separate things. We have laws to keep a certain general order to society and preserve the ability to have everyday interactions. Laws against murder exist to protect the citizens and to keep order, not because murder is "morally wrong" (although it is). There is no moral imperative associated with driving on the right side of the road in America, or driving on the left side of the road in other parts of the world; the laws simply exist to keep traffic orderly and to help prevent accidents. Law should not be derived from the particular moral code of a given individual or group; that is the exact opposite of fair governance.
You can't separate the two my friend. Morality is apart of one's self. Straight up! To be or not to be. As far as the understanding of God being put first in our forefathers out look.(In America) Thanksgiving as a holiday, our money In God we trust, Our monuments (God is everywhere ) , The prayer room and many others, Back in that time we even federally paid for churches being built. Bibles in school , as well. ECT..... Even though As the nation stands in part some are trying to hide our heritage. The can't change reality of it. Poeple even try hiding the meanning behind easter / with a bunny or Christmas /with santa claus.Even today 85% of Americans think of them selves as Christian,but I don't think everyone truly Knows Gods. Only Knowing of him. Godly ,but uncommitted PER SAY. As to say as well. America is 5% of the world population,but puts 75% of the worlds mission. As an out reach of God..... That Is a statement in it self.
 
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Wiccan_Child

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Well you haven't disproved him either. Why don't you Look to disprove him in open minded logical thinking.
No one claims to be able to disprove the existence of God. We simply don't find the "God created life" argument compelling.

Start with the building blocks of life like the( atom) ,its energy and its source of energy.Their is so much to look at ,but pick your interests and not the pious storm to no ware.
By all means, demonstrate the existence of a Creator. Use whatever argument you want.
 
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allhart

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I don't know about you, but Life is my drive. I live for life because I find it interesting, I find my experiences of the good and the bad, and the knowledge I gain, and the rat race that is human existance profoundly interesting and worth sticking around for.

Do you find life so uninteresting that all you can do is dedicate your thoughts to the afterlife? Sounds like a waste to me.
Quit the contrary. I will live forever and with the forgiveness I asked for( IN HIS PERSUIT OF ME), therefore;grace was given unto me by Jesus that paid for it all. As to speak out to you the difference between me and you is a personal relationship w/forgiveness and a continual striving of a training to be better than the day before, but having the Constance grace forward to me. All things are Possible through God.I trouble in all sin for the man inside has Changed. Gave to me as a gift through no merit of my own.
 
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TooCurious

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You can't separate the two my friend.

I didn't separate them; they are already separate. Unless you think there's some moral implication inherent in driving on the right side of the road?

Morality is apart of one's self. Straight up! To be or not to be.

Please demonstrate that morality exists separate from the minds of humans.

Also, if you're familiar with Shakespeare, you'll see that "To be or not to be" is something of a non sequitur in this paragraph.

As far as the understanding of God being put first in our forefathers out look.(In America)

Deistic?

Thanksgiving as a holiday,

Is a harvest festival, and Wikipedia states that it is generally considered a secular holiday.

our money In God we trust, Our monuments (God is everywhere ) , The prayer room and many others, Back in that time we even federally paid for churches being built. Bibles in school , as well.

Now, however, as a multicultural and religiously-diverse society, we have people motivated to see the First Amendment enforced.

ECT..... Even though As the nation stands in part some are trying to hide our heritage. The can't change reality of it.

Nobody's "trying to hide" anything. The simple fact is that religious bias has no place in a government that wishes to protect religious freedom.

Poeple even try hiding the meanning behind easter / with a bunny or Christmas /with santa claus.Even today 85% of Americans think of them selves as Christian,but I don't think everyone truly Knows Gods. Only Knowing of him. Godly ,but uncommitted PER SAY.

This would seem to undermine your claim that America is a "Christian nation."

As to say as well. America is 5% of the world population,but puts 75% of the worlds mission. As an out reach of God..... That Is a statement in it self.

I don't know what it's a statement about, or how it's relevant to the topic under discussion.
 
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allhart

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I didn't separate them; they are already separate. Unless you think there's some moral implication inherent in driving on the right side of the road?



Please demonstrate that morality exists separate from the minds of humans.

Also, if you're familiar with Shakespeare, you'll see that "To be or not to be" is something of a non sequitur in this paragraph.



Deistic?



Is a harvest festival, and Wikipedia states that it is generally considered a secular holiday.



Now, however, as a multicultural and religiously-diverse society, we have people motivated to see the First Amendment enforced.



Nobody's "trying to hide" anything. The simple fact is that religious bias has no place in a government that wishes to protect religious freedom.



This would seem to undermine your claim that America is a "Christian nation."



I don't know what it's a statement about, or how it's relevant to the topic under discussion.
Your response to Thanks giving Ect, come on.Do you really believe that???? :doh:Or about the history of Pocahontas.... I need to pinch myself to make sure I'm awake and not in a night mare!!!~!
 
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