Why hijab?

Philothei said:

So....a man is at an animal level that cannot controll his instinct while a woman is a human being with feelings....News for you? Man and woman have both feelings and they are moved to love by them. YOU are making the dinstinction by "not allowing" the woman to be herself ...and blame her for man's inability to "cope" with his lust...

Click to expand...

Do you understand what I am saying? Concentrate a bit more.I never negated man's feelings, neither I negated woman's desire, but I said that desire is more in case of a man, while love in more in case of a woman, and I clearly made the example of rape. All what I see is that you mean to misunderstand my words. And again I didn't blame the woman only for temptation of man, but I blamed both, since woman must put into consideration that man has a desire, and she is tempting him that way, she must be helpful, help him not to be lust, but that way she is driving him to be lust.

Philothei said:

They are not "allowed" to dress as they please. How is this freedom? It is one thing to 'teach" modesty and another to "imposs" it... Why Islam feels that they have to "tell their women" how to dress? How is it the women's problem if men cannot handle themselves? Would it be better to teach men to be more modest in their lustful thoughts and actions?

Click to expand...

I have already answered these question, it seems that you are only setting these questions to stimulize the feelings of the reader, an outdated technique. I have already said that women don't leave alone and they must help men not to sin or to ruin their life by driving them to be lust. And I have said nearly in every thread that the problem is not the woman's propblem only, it's the problem of both, and as God put the solution for women's side, he put it for men's side as well, as He ordered them not to look, not to touch, not to take girlfriends, if they did all that, they will be sinning, as well as the order to marry as quick as possible. But all that may be so difficult if women are wearing tempting clothes. Look at your society and what happens in it, you can see a clear difference.

Philothei said:

Because if hijab is from God why He did not "dress" Eve but they were BOTH naked in the Paradise?

Click to expand...

This was a punishment from God, and don't forget that she was his wife and alone with him.

Philothei said:

And then when they were ousted they were "both" clothed???? that would mean God did not "dress" Eve more than Adam... never mind what your prophet said...

Click to expand...

Not necessary, women used to have different clothes than women, don't forget that in the OT, women used to cover themselves, and Tertullian as well as the didascalia apostolorum ordered women to wear full veil.

Philothei said:

It is not easier for woman.... and by bringing in he woman it does not justify the use of hijab in women... You treat women as a prisoner.... cursed to wear a full dress looking at the world out there... How would you like to wear a head to toe dress with very limited vision of the world??? Would you really and truly feel blessed? I do not think so...

Click to expand...

Still playing on the reader's feelings, how cruel you are treating women as prisoners? You are discussing in a very outdated way. Why did the OT as well as Tertullian and didascalia order veil for women only? Even if you believe this as restricted to their era, how dare they treated women as prisoners and not permitting women to wear what they want?

Philothei said:

We are not discussing Chritianity here...

Click to expand...

Ah, the usual cowardiness and hypocrisy of Christians, you Christians really have a bad reputation on that point among non-Christians in that forum, either they were Muslims or not, if your faith tells you to be veiled, why do you object on Muslims? Tertullian didn't mean it for his era alone, didascalia never restricted it by their era. Veil is in Christianity, Christians are hypocrites attacking their own resources as the only way to attack Islam.

Philothei said:

irrelevant.

Click to expand...

Again you are evading my point, you claimed there are male prostitutes, burden of proof lies upon you.

Philothei said:

trully laughable..... your answer is that ....the prostitution is irrelevant to Islam but you are eager to point it in the west as Christian related and blame it on the hijab...lol...... Your sharia laws do not work??? what is the problem? Hijab does not work ? You said earlier that is does... show us then how it eliminates prostitution? Singling out of these groups does not prove that Islam's haddith on the hijab proves to make the society better.

Click to expand...

The case is that adultery is much more present in the Western society than Eastern, and all its doors are opened, while in case of Eastern societies, it's much more limited although present, I didn't deny its presence, but the large difference between the two societies is due to the wise legislations of Islam.
A woman wears hijab practicing prostitution has nothing to do with hijab, if a man wore a policeman's custome and used it to hijack cars and kill their drivers, does this mean that policeman custome has anything to do with what this man made? The answer is left to a sane person.

peaceful soul said:

To get back to the central issue: passing laws via religion to regulate lust is not the way to go. Lust is something that is at the person's heart and needs to be dealt with aside from law. Thought polices are not going to be able to patrol the minds of men. All that Islam does is to disguise the problem by making it appear that the problem is gone because it sets out to prevent the outward reactions to an inner spiritual problem. Until Islam learns to deal with personal spiritual behaviors with spiritual remedies, then it can only mask the problems and claim victory for keeping such spiritual problems from being acted out or seen in public. Legislating sins don't get rid of the thought in the mind that leads to the outer signs of the sin. Learn from that!

Click to expand...

I see that your post can all be in that point, well, I actually differ with you, since this already happens with experimentation that adultery in Islamic societies is much less than that in Western societies where all doors are open, we are not angels, we are human beings, we have temptations which we may not overcome, so we need to be put in an atmosphere helping us to do so, of course this won't negate lust, but it will effectively limit it and help many people, and what happens in your societies where everything is allowed proves it, since the consequence is so clear concerning fornication, girlfriends and boyfriends, marriage betrayals, that it even reached to same sex marriage and notorious extensive scandals of priests. I see this a clear consequence to not applying Islamic rules and hijab is one of these reasons.

MK11 said:

I see that your post can all be in that point, well, I actually differ with you, since this already happens with experimentation that adultery in Islamic societies is much less than that in Western societies where all doors are open, we are not angels, we are human beings, we have temptations which we may not overcome, so we need to be put in an atmosphere helping us to do so, of course this won't negate lust, but it will effectively limit it and help many people, and what happens in your societies where everything is allowed proves it, since the consequence is so clear concerning fornication, girlfriends and boyfriends, marriage betrayals, that it even reached to same sex marriage and notorious extensive scandals of priests. I see this a clear consequence to not applying Islamic rules and hijab is one of these reasons.

Click to expand...

Keep your hijab to yourself. We do not oppress women like your Islam does on covering herself like being in a mini-tent. It seems you have rather ignored my reply, but anyways. Here is the thing, women cannot be held responsible for male's lustful desire unless they are directly involved in it. A women just wearing her casual dress in a western society, minding her own business and when one perv just see her lustfuly, you blame the sin upon her also. You call that justice in Islam? Way to go dude.

The dress code in the western society is a cultural thing, just as pakistani muslim women and other Asian muslim women have different dress code than your arab hijab.
I heared that a western women once, came to middle-east and wanted to go to a bar. She was wearing casual dress and when she enter the bar, the male group began to stare at her. One also followed her when she got out of the bar, fortunately her boyfriend arrived and the stranger left. She said that, even if she wear a skirt in a bar in her home country, folks won't just stare at her like those middle-eastern did; they would have just mind their own business. So again, this shows that Arab muslims do have problems with their lustful desires. Which is true, as I have seen how so many Arabs reacts upon seeing a foreign women. I am not being racist, but I think its the fact.
So, leaving bikinis, you seem to even have problems of girls being baptized.... What the heck is wrong with that? It seems to me that you seriously need to go to a psychiatrist. Dude, is this how your mind works? Then its sick to me, no offence dude.

So yuh, blaming women folks because of you and your pplz lustful behaviour towards them, shows how low you guyz are? Thats the way I think, no offence again.

Erfan777 said:

Keep your hijab to yourself. We do not oppress women like your Islam does on covering herself like being in a mini-tent.

Click to expand...

Well, and you Christians keep on sinking in the adultery pond, the notorious scandals of your priests, keep on sleeping until you wake up and find yourself in Hell. Your early father Tertullian orders your women to be veiled, the didascalia appostolorum ordered you to do so, you abstain from your own traditions. Keep on your girls wearing bikini putting their body for free to all people.

Erfan777 said:

A women just wearing her casual dress in a western society, minding her own business and when one perv just see her lustfuly, you blame the sin upon her also. You call that justice in Islam? Way to go dude.

Click to expand...

I think I have talked to all people here about this, read my other replies.

Erfan777 said:

It seems you have rather ignored my reply, but anyways.

Click to expand...

Were you adressing me? I am not supposed to answer everyone here. Anyway, I will reply it.

Erfan777 said:

The dress code in the western society is a cultural thing, just as pakistani muslim women and other Asian muslim women have different dress code than your arab hijab.

Click to expand...

Go and tell that to your fathers, then come and talk to me, and see what that nudity code not dress code drove the west to.

Erfan777 said:

I heared that a western women once, came to middle-east and wanted to go to a bar. She was wearing casual dress and when she enter the bar, the male group began to stare at her. One also followed her when she got out of the bar, fortunately her boyfriend arrived and the stranger left.

Click to expand...

You are talking about people in a bar, i.e. drunk i.e. have nothing to do with Islam. Use that shoe in your head a bit.

Erfan777 said:

Arab muslims do have problems with their lustful desires. Which is true, as I have seen how so many Arabs reacts upon seeing a foreign women. I am not being racist, but I think its the fact.

Click to expand...

Look at the adultery in the Western cultures and see if really if they are the Arabs who are only lust or not, the case is that we are in a more safe area, we put more defense lines, as hijab and segregation between sexes for example, so when an Arab gets lust he may only look, or may only try to talk to the woman, and rarely he reaches to the point of adultery, while when a western guy gets lust, he always jumps to adultery and prostitution.

Erfan777 said:

So, leaving bikinis, you seem to even have problems of girls being baptized.... What the heck is wrong with that? It seems to me that you seriously need to go to a psychiatrist. Dude, is this how your mind works? Then its sick to me, no offence dude.

Click to expand...

Ah, you didn't tell me what you think about bikini, is it ok or not?
As for baptism, I was directing this question to Philothei since she is Orthodox, and according to what I have read in the Orthodox books, is that baptizm is made by stripping the person totally, and the priest keeps on touching many parts of his body, and it didn't differentiate between a man and a woman.

Now let's look at what you said in the other post:

Erfan777 said:

In Islam it says, Muhammad looked upon a women and thought of her as devil, so he returned home and took one of his wife in bed. So it shows that Muhammad blamed the women for being devilish because of his lust towards her.

Click to expand...

Wrong, but it is the devil that stimulates the man's desire when he looks at a woman.

Erfan777 said:

In Islam it also says, women are to blame for man's impure thoughts (lust) and women will be the majority in hell.Muhammed said, a country ruled by a woman will never succeed.

Click to expand...

Irrelevant, neither hadiths were talking about hijab. or men's lust.

Erfan777 said:

This piece of Hadith shows how Muhammad viewed about married women.

Click to expand...

And don't you know that all ladies the Prophet (Peace be upon him) married were married before except Aisha? And you still attack him for his marriage and say it is just because of desire? You Christians are always double-standarding contradicting yourselves.

The Prophet (Peace be upon him) was talking about the usual case that marrying a virgin is more fulfilling to desire than a married woman, what's wrong about that? He was talking to one of his disciples who was young, and he was surprised from his action that he married a married woman, since the natural marriage for a young guy is that he marries a virgin.

Erfan777 said:

Islam says women should be virgin until marriage but seems to be silent on male's virginity; as in Islam it is permitted for male to have sex with concubines/female slaves, even if he is not married to anyone.

Click to expand...

Well, this is another issue, but can you tell me the difference between a female slave and a maid? I can prove to you that your Bible condonces taking female concubines, and David did it, YHWH didn't blame him.

MK11, you need to do some research on crimes against women in your own country. I am not going to provide links, as that would amount, IMO, to piling on, as you have a lot of opposition here. But if you are an honest person, you owe it to yourself to do the research (and while doing so consider that womens' fear of reprisal means many crimes are not reported at all), and you owe it to the raped, beaten, injured, intimidated, and often murdered women in your country to put yourself in their shoes, and see how you feel.

Your idea of the correct way of dealing with women reduces their humanity, subjects them to the authority of men who may not have their best interests at heart, causes them to sometimes live in fear of their own fathers and brothers, reduces their access to education and employment, diminishes their life choices to far less than the choices men may make. Put yourself in their place.

You are consistently, in every post on this subject, placing the burden of male weakness on women. And there is no need for men to be so weak and so easily subjugated by their sexuality. Self control is a learned behaviour.

Sometimes, when you speak of women, you sound as if you don't think women are even members of the same species as men. You mistake cultural accommodation for reality.

Here is a thought experiment for you, which you may not dare to do because like some Christians you believe it wrong for a man to wear female garb, but if you dare, I think you might learn something important. Obtain 'proper' Islamic womens' coverings, specifically, the one with only one eye visible. Try then to go about the daily business a woman might have to do, perform the labour she might do, go to the places she might have to go, and experience what she might experience.

Consider, if you were a woman, what things you do as a man that she cannot do, or is not allowed to do, because of the restrictions you as a man place upon her. All because you have a culturally dictated belief that you, as a man, cannot develop enough self-control. This is just an admission of weakness and laziness on the part of men.

MK11 said:

As for what happened with your daughter, I think that they didn't mean so, they only did so because they saw that she looked Islamic, for example, if your girl wore as a nun, people around her may do the same thing not because she looks erotic, but because she is wearing something they believe it's good for her.

Click to expand...

Nuns do not wear make up, nor stiletto heels, with their habits. Moslem women most certainly do; lots of it. There is nothing about modesty in what they wear, or the amount of eye makeup they wear with their veils.

What amazes me is how, no matter how modest the Moslem woman, there always seems to be someone who says she is not Islamic enough. I suspect Islam will not be happy until all their women are locked away at home permanently, and never see the light of day. So much for the women's equality we hear about.

As for your question about adult baptism, I attended such a baptism about a month ago, for a friend of mine She stood at the font, and the priest poured water from a shell onto her forehead as she leaned over the font. Then he made the sign of the cross on her forehead, same as with a baby. I fail to see how this can be immodest as he hardly touched her. Again, she remained fully clothed, and certainly modestly clothed throughout.

Other denominations may conduct baptisms differently, but I can assure you there is nothing lewd about any of them, whatever you may have heard.

Philothei said:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j8TF_u7mMu4&feature=related


Just wanted to know why women in Islam wear it and also support it?

This thread is about the hijab not the Christian women's covering in the church...
Just to make it clear right off...

Are islam women given a choice? ARe those who do not wear it any less "muslim" than the other who wear it? Are they not considered mulsims?

Click to expand...

Beside the Holy command of covering the hair, it is also my hair.
It is about being clean.
If I will not cover my hair then this means that I will wipe my hand every minute to be able to touch my hair after shaking hands with people, touching dusty shelves in Bookstores, passing by people with certain scalp diseases, bugs, dust, sun light,...etc.
The Hijab is a healthy protection foe every women.
I can guarantee my house to be clean that's why I don't wear it at home but I can't control the environment of having dugs with laces and cats with bacteria.
It is about being clean and healthy. And saving something for the husband to see what others don't see.
It is about wrapping the gift with a gift paper or a box.
It is about putting the diamonds in protected places.
It is about putting money in banks.
It is about saving the best for the one who deserves it.
It is also about seduction, if women wear something undecent then they will seduce people around and this is a big sin that may lead any into adultry.
It is all about preventing the disaster from happening and it is about your own personality and the impact you have on people and it is also about self confidence. If you have less confidence then you will try to attract the attention by the way you look with clothes,heavy make up, showing parts of the body and the results are known either rape, adultry or kidnapping???
So, why to go that far? Why to throw your beauty in fire for the sake of someone?
It is a very big huge test, one after the other and one is connected to the other but who is able to reach that point of understanding?

MK11 said:

Iran is NOT a Muslim country, it's a Shiite one. We Sunnis have nothing to do with them.

Click to expand...

You didn't specifically state Sunni and last I checked Shiites consider themselves to be Muslim.

But if you want to disregard Shiite practices lets look the Sunni practice of misyar or "Travellers Marriage" which while not as blatant is still regularly used to essentially legalise prostitution and adultery.

Philothei said:

Just wanted to know why women in Islam wear it and also support it?

Click to expand...

Muslim women wear hijab because God tells them to do so. It is their religious obligation:

"O Prophet, tell your wives and daughters and the believing women to draw their outer garments around them (when they go out or are among men). That is better in order that they may be known (to be Muslims) and not annoyed..." (Qur'an 33:59)

Philothei said:

Are islam women given a choice? ARe those who do not wear it any less "muslim" than the other who wear it? Are they not considered mulsims?

Click to expand...

Of course, what looks initially like a friendly question was a prelude to a "Islam is bad" and "Christianity is good" debate... except that Philothei is afraid this discussion will look bad on Christianity and was quick to say no tu quoqe please.

My points are as follows:

1. The Quran and hadith do not say that Muslim women are given a 'choice' of wearing the hijab or not. If you are a Muslim and you believe in God, then it is the expectation of Muslims that you follow what God says is the best for you. That goes for Christianity as well, I suppose.

2. Muslims do not 'judge' his brother or sister as a 'lesser' Muslim. In Islam, the grace of God comes from God Himself, and it may be that some of us are 'far' from Him now and may be 'near' to Him in our later lifes.

3. It is certainly not for Muslims to call another as non-Muslims just because he do not follow the practices of Islam, except when the person openly declares he/she is no longer a Muslim. As I have mentioned to you in my previous post, we do not have a Church or a priestly system that can ex-communicate one from God.

4. Wearing the hijab is a form of protecting a Muslim's women modesty... as mentioned by the Surah above. How a Muslim defines a person's modesty is differently from how a Hindu, a Christian or even an atheist define 'modesty'. That does not mean Muslims are wrong... let us just say we are different.

5. What some Western women (and Christians like Philothei) are 'concerned' is the use of hijab as a suppression of women. If that is the issue, then ask the Muslim women here if they are oppressed into wearing the hijab and if they feel the hijab protects their modesty. So far, I only hear the Muslim women here protects the use of hijab, not the other way round.

6. I think it is more sad that in many countries, Muslim women were actually oppressed in not being able to practice their faith. In countries like Turkey and France, wearing a hijab is like a 'sin' to the govt when the objective is totally the opposite.

7. Of all the issues that a Christian can debate on Islam, it would be a surprise and a shame to religious tolerance if the issue of hijab is one of them. I have always thought that Islam, Christianity and all religions advocate that their adherents maintain their modesty, in ways that their religion teach them.

Bombila said:

MK11, you need to do some research on crimes against women in your own country. I am not going to provide links, as that would amount, IMO, to piling on, as you have a lot of opposition here. But if you are an honest person, you owe it to yourself to do the research (and while doing so consider that womens' fear of reprisal means many crimes are not reported at all), and you owe it to the raped, beaten, injured, intimidated, and often murdered women in your country to put yourself in their shoes, and see how you feel.

Click to expand...

Well, I have already given the reasons for sexual harassment present in Egypt in my reply to Secundulus here:
http://christianforums.com/showpost.php?p=48871626&postcount=39

At least within the circle of the people whom I know, I haven't heard on any of these crimes except for one time, and she was even unveiled, nothing happened to her because she could defend herself and she escaped quickly. This was the only event I heard about, although I heard many other times about crimes against men as theft for example. As I said to Secundulus, it's a matter of the society itself, and for economic affairs.

Bombila said:

Your idea of the correct way of dealing with women reduces their humanity, subjects them to the authority of men who may not have their best interests at heart, causes them to sometimes live in fear of their own fathers and brothers, reduces their access to education and employment, diminishes their life choices to far less than the choices men may make. Put yourself in their place.

Click to expand...

Prophet Muhammad (Peace be upon him) kept on recommending us on women and treating them properly, and told us that if anyone was given a responsibility of some people and he died transgressing them, God forbids Heaven on him, so it shouldn't be a matter of fear, they should treat her in a nice way. In Islam, it is not forbidden that women take education or to be employed in a job which is safe and convenient for her, but this must be the case if she can perform her duties at home as cooking and raising up the children, since this is her real job and her only responsibility, and it is not something easy, because in many cases children need their mother, and if they were left to a stranger to raise them, they couldn't do it properly. Actually, I see that this is the right position a woman should be in, and this is much more comfortable to a woman than going to work, then coming tired thinking about work then she is supposed to cook and do home duties, that way she is only a machine. This is not what Islam wants, God created man and woman with different natures, and based on each one's nature, He gave each one his or her job, the man should work, get money, and spend on his family, the woman keeps the house and raise her children, and life goes smoothly that way, no need for a woman to work (although not forbidden as I said before).

Bombila said:

You are consistently, in every post on this subject, placing the burden of male weakness on women. And there is no need for men to be so weak and so easily subjugated by their sexuality. Self control is a learned behaviour.

Click to expand...

Again, I clearly said that it is only the sin of male, and he doesn't have an excuse if he looked at her, but it is also her sin as she is helping him on temptation. And if self control was enough, it won't have been the case that Western countries are notoriously known for adultery, prostitution and wife betrayals.

Bombila said:

Sometimes, when you speak of women, you sound as if you don't think women are even members of the same species as men. You mistake cultural accommodation for reality.

Click to expand...

How so?

Bombila said:

Here is a thought experiment for you, which you may not dare to do because like some Christians you believe it wrong for a man to wear female garb, but if you dare, I think you might learn something important. Obtain 'proper' Islamic womens' coverings, specifically, the one with only one eye visible. Try then to go about the daily business a woman might have to do, perform the labour she might do, go to the places she might have to go, and experience what she might experience.

Click to expand...

Well, you know? One of my very close relatives wears niqab by her choice, and she has been wearing it for 20 yrs, and nothing of what you say happens to her, I see girls wearing niqab at the university, at many places and driving cars, no problem, they are practicing their life smoothly. And most of them wear niqab by their choice, on the contrary, they may find a strong objection from their family for wearing it, but they still insist on that.

Well Philothei, that way discussion is not proceeding, since you don't even consider what I say and keep on repeating what you said, you are saying that women are responsible for men's weakness and that males have an excuse, I kept on explaining it telling that males don'e have an excuse and they also sin even if the temptation is so great, but the woman also sin for helping him to be lust. You ignore this and keep on saying that it is only the responsibility of women, what shall I do if you are closed minded and doesn't hear the other side, only insist on what you say?

I kept on saying that it limits adultery, you keep on saying that I say it eliminates it then refute the supposed claim that there is still adultery in Muslim countries, again and for the last time, I will illustrate it now, a country without applying Islamic laws concerning hijab and segregation and many other laws concerning the doors to adultery may have 100 adultery cases per month for example (I say any number), another country closing all doors to adultery may have 10 adultery cases, can you understand the difference now? I'll give another example, it was found in a country that it has 5000 car accidents per year, so the government is trying to reduce it, so they begin to put more firm laws, and check the efficiency of the drivers, so after applying these rules, accidents were reduced to 500 only. This is the same case concerning the West and the Middle East, for example when I hear that the average male mates for an Australian woman is 13 guys, that's terrific, in case of Eastern countries, this is not the case at all, there may be single cases of adultery, but not that way.

When I tell you that women don't look to men the same way men do as men usually look for beauty more while women look to love and personality more, and give the examples of women not interested while being raped, and that men don't work as prostitutes, you totally evaded the issue, and either keeping on saying what you said before or saying this is irrelevant.

You first objected when you thought I say women are free to wear saying that this way hijab doesn't perform its job, when I told you that they should wear the hijab, you began to play on the freedom of women, and how do you judge them on what they wear, you just want to object, whether hijab is mandatory or not, I said that women don't live alone and must help the society be clean and free from adultery as much as possible ( so that you don't come again and say I said it will totally elimiate adultery).

Last thing concerning Christianity, I know you are not honest with yourself, and putting Xianity aside is a clear evidence, that's up to you, but there are others who may read this thread.

Philothei said:

Women in the Old Testament did it out of cultural norms not because there was a LAW from God. though... where is God telling women to cover??? Find me it for me in the Old Testament. YOu cannot since it does not exist.... Tertullian is not God.

Click to expand...

I understand that you say it is a cultural norm, but it wasn't condemned. While Tertullian told that it is a must for all eras, there is a Holy Spirit guiding Tertullian, whom you believe to be God, so either the Holy Spirit is ordering with an unjust law or that Tertullian was a heretic blaspheming against the Holy Spirit and putting laws from his own, and if the last was the case, where are the other church fathers contemporary to him, or even after him for at least 10 centuries? why didn't they correct Tertullian and say it was only a cultural norm?Why didn't they accuse him of treating women as slaves as you are doing with Muslims? On the contrary, we find the didascalia appostolorum confirming what Tertullian said.

I don't think I need to discuss it more with you, since you are saying nothing new, we are wasting our both times. Be more honest with yourself Philothei, hijab is a must, and even your sources say so.

NegativeCool said:

You didn't specifically state Sunni and last I checked Shiites consider themselves to be Muslim.

But if you want to disregard Shiite practices lets look the Sunni practice of misyar or "Travellers Marriage" which while not as blatant is still regularly used to essentially legalise prostitution and adultery.

Click to expand...

What do you know about misyar? From your own words please.

Catherineanne said:

Nuns do not wear make up, nor stiletto heels, with their habits.

Click to expand...

Neither should a veiled Muslim woman do.

Catherineanne said:

What amazes me is how, no matter how modest the Moslem woman, there always seems to be someone who says she is not Islamic enough. I suspect Islam will not be happy until all their women are locked away at home permanently, and never see the light of day. So much for the women's equality we hear about.

Click to expand...

There are well known conditions for Islamic veil. She follows them, there is nothing wrong with her.

Catherineanne said:

As for your question about adult baptism,...

Click to expand...

I meant to ask this question to Philothei since she is an Orthodox, according to what I have read in an Arabic Coptic Orthodox book, is that the person must be totally naked then he goes to the priest and the priest keeps on passing his hand on many parts in his body, I see this so disgusting, how could a man see his wife baptized that way?

MK11 said:

What do you know about misyar? From your own words please.

Click to expand...

I've read reports that it being used by travelling workers to keep a sexual partner in a foreign city without all the incumbent difficulties of a proper marriage. The only purpose in many cases is for the man to have have his sexual needs taken care of and for the woman to profit financially from this arrangement. This is essentially prostitution. It may have had a different intent originally, but do you deny that "Travellers Marriage" is currently being abused?

NegativeCool said:

I've read reports that it being used by travelling workers to keep a sexual partner in a foreign city without all the incumbent difficulties of a proper marriage. The only purpose in many cases is for the man to have have his sexual needs taken care of and for the woman to profit financially from this arrangement. This is essentially prostitution. It may have had a different intent originally, but do you deny that "Travellers Marriage" is currently being abused?

Click to expand...

This is not exactly the case, the woman shouldn't be married, so that marriage could be done, it has the ordinary conditions of marriage that there must be witnesses and that she is well known to be his wife, but the difference is that the man is not committed to come to her periodically as he is travelling, she has nothing to lose because she is not married and this happens more to women who are old and they were not still married for example those above 30 and she has nothing to lose so she accepts this marriage. And although being a right marriage, it is not widely accepted since it doesn't give the woman all her rights. So I don't see where is the prostitution you are talking about.

Ok, I'm not going to read through this entire thread, since it's just the same old, same old.

I think it all gets down to your paradigm. Who am I, what is this world, and what is my role in it? I am a severant of God, this world is His, and my role is to submit to Him.

How much free will do we have in submitting to our Lord? Sure, someone can chose not to do something that is required of them, but that leads to an imperfection in their submission. Someone could chose not to pray, chose not to fast, chose not to do any number of things that are required in Islam. Hijab is simply one of those number of things that are required.

A sister who doesn't wear hijab could be doing any number of other things. She could work every day to purify her heart, strive not to gossip, make all her prayers on time, pray extra.

A sister who wears hijab could be doing any number of things wrong. She could be constantly late in her prayers, always talking about people behind their backs, etc.

Wearing hijab isn't necessarily a good barameter of the inward state. However, people and people, and people have a tendancy to judge based on outward apperances.


The ideal would be to strive to do everything that our Lord requires of us. But, no one is perfect. Thus, we continue to strive, continue to seek to improve and perfect our worship of our Lord.

MK11 said:

Well, I have already given the reasons for sexual harassment present in Egypt in my reply to Secundulus here:
http://christianforums.com/showpost.php?p=48871626&postcount=39

At least within the circle of the people whom I know, I haven't heard on any of these crimes except for one time, and she was even unveiled, nothing happened to her because she could defend herself and she escaped quickly. This was the only event I heard about, although I heard many other times about crimes against men as theft for example. As I said to Secundulus, it's a matter of the society itself, and for economic affairs.

Prophet Muhammad (Peace be upon him) kept on recommending us on women and treating them properly, and told us that if anyone was given a responsibility of some people and he died transgressing them, God forbids Heaven on him, so it shouldn't be a matter of fear, they should treat her in a nice way. In Islam, it is not forbidden that women take education or to be employed in a job which is safe and convenient for her, but this must be the case if she can perform her duties at home as cooking and raising up the children, since this is her real job and her only responsibility, and it is not something easy, because in many cases children need their mother, and if they were left to a stranger to raise them, they couldn't do it properly. Actually, I see that this is the right position a woman should be in, and this is much more comfortable to a woman than going to work, then coming tired thinking about work then she is supposed to cook and do home duties, that way she is only a machine. This is not what Islam wants, God created man and woman with different natures, and based on each one's nature, He gave each one his or her job, the man should work, get money, and spend on his family, the woman keeps the house and raise her children, and life goes smoothly that way, no need for a woman to work (although not forbidden as I said before).

Again, I clearly said that it is only the sin of male, and he doesn't have an excuse if he looked at her, but it is also her sin as she is helping him on temptation. And if self control was enough, it won't have been the case that Western countries are notoriously known for adultery, prostitution and wife betrayals.

How so?

Well, you know? One of my very close relatives wears niqab by her choice, and she has been wearing it for 20 yrs, and nothing of what you say happens to her, I see girls wearing niqab at the university, at many places and driving cars, no problem, they are practicing their life smoothly. And most of them wear niqab by their choice, on the contrary, they may find a strong objection from their family for wearing it, but they still insist on that.

Click to expand...

Again, I tell you, you are obviously unaware of many crimes against women in your country which are specific to women, not just 'sexual harassment'. I don't know your position as to education or class, only that you are quite young, perhaps somewhat sheltered, and perhaps not able to find out about such things easily. Crimes against women because they are women are a problem in many, if not most countries: the difference is that Egypt has a reputation for unequal treatment of women under the law, despite stating that laws are equal.

Your arguments on the desireability of women staying in the home are exactly those of fundamentalist Christians. Economically, at no time and nowhere has this been possible for any but wealthy women, whose wealth is usually dependent on a husband's income. This does not even bring up the fact some women are not able to have children or do not wish to, or who are widowed, or husband has left them, or never marry at all. As for her coming home tired, do men have no hands to help, once they come home from work?

You typically exaggerate about Western countries adultery, etc., while not even knowing how many men in your own country are adulterous, and also base your argument, I think, on the US. I have no religion, my husband and I have been married eighteen years, there is no adultery. Adultery is not related to clothing choice, but to self control, which is learned. Here is a true story. I worked in childcare in Canada with a young Muslim man, married with children. All his coworkers were young women, he saw every day lots of beautiful young women dressed in western summer clothes, yet he was not 'tempted', because this is normal in our culture; he was used to it. Also, he loved his wife, and that is the real reason for not being adulterous. A man who really cares for his wife does not stray.

How so? You seem to believe that women are not very sexual, do not have desire in the same way as men. You seem to think women should not have ambition beyond bearing children and looking after the home. This suggests you think women are much more different than men than we really are. This is why I say you mistake culture for reality.

A person can overcome all kinds of obstacles by practice, including the impediments of restrictive clothing, and people will take up practices for their own reasons, which is fine. The problem is when they are forced to out of fear of consequences instead of choice.