what do you think?

Originally posted by puker_33
where in the bible does it say love is an action?

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Does the Bible say that love is an emotion?

Anyway, here's an example:

John 14:21
He who has My commandments and keeps them, it is he who loves Me.

God bless

Yes, you can most definitely be outside the will of God, and it is one of the fundamental Biblical teachings.

Our freedom of choice, even if it is contrary to God's will, is absolutely necessary, because where freedom is revoked then so is love.

Mat. 18:14 Even so it is not the will of your Father which is in heaven, that one of these little ones should perish.

2 Peter 3:9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.

But, some will perish even though it is not the will of God.

Originally posted by adam332
Yes, you can most definitely be outside the will of God, and it is one of the fundamental Biblical teachings.

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Why would you paint God to be either so uncaring, or impotent, that He would not, or could not accomplish His own Will.  I can't understand why people would even want God to not be able to ensure His own Will was done.  That goes against the idea of who God even is.  God is sovereign.  That means HIS WILL WILL BE DONE.  Does it make you feel better thinking that God is so powerless that He can't even accomplish what He sets out to accomplish?

Our freedom of choice, even if it is contrary to God's will, is absolutely necessary, because where freedom is revoked then so is love.

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Pray tell, when is man's nature free?  When?  When he's fallen?  Don't think so.  When a man is fallen he will not, nor can he, love God because his very nature, everything that he is, is at enmity with God.  He is God's enemy.

Mat. 18:14 Even so it is not the will of your Father which is in heaven, that one of these little ones should perish.

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Read that in context.  It becomes very clear that God elects, seeks out, and preserves not only His church as a whole, but each individual within the church.  That parable is based on Ezek 34:11-16:

Ezekiel 34:11-16
 "For thus says the Lord GOD: "Indeed I Myself will search for My sheep and seek them out.  As a shepherd seeks out his flock on the day he is among his scattered sheep, so will I seek out My sheep and deliver them from all the places where they were scattered on a cloudy and dark day.  And I will bring them out from the peoples and gather them from the countries, and will bring them to their own land; I will feed them on the mountains of Israel, in the valleys and in all the inhabited places of the country.  I will feed them in good pasture, and their fold shall be on the high mountains of Israel. There they shall lie down in a good fold and feed in rich pasture on the mountains of Israel.  I will feed My flock, and I will make them lie down," says the Lord GOD.  "I will seek what was lost and bring back what was driven away, bind up the broken and strengthen what was sick; but I will destroy the fat and the strong, and feed them in judgment."

Show me again where man's "freedom" had a part in that?

2 Peter 3:9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering toward us, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.

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Yeah.  You seem to be having a problem with context, don't you?  Try looking at 2 Peter 1:1 and finding out who that epistle was written to.  Then you might have a better understanding of who the "us" is that Peter is talking about:

2 Peter 1:1
Simon Peter, a bondservant and apostle of Jesus Christ,

To those who have obtained like precious faith with us by the righteousness of our God and Savior Jesus Christ

That whole book is Peter telling "those who have obtained like precious faith with us by the righteousness of our God and Savior Jesus Christ" who are being threatened by false teaching from within (2:1).  This epistle is to serve as an antidote by stressing the truth and ethical implications of the Gospel against the false teachers.  This book is written TO CHRISTIANS.  Kinda important. 

But, some will perish even though it is not the will of God.

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Oh some perish, but not God's elect.  Those will be preserved, just as I have shown.

God bless

Do you smell somethin' burnin'?

Freedom of choice is a sign of love, not uncaring.
Your comments are totally unfounded and against the simplest of scriptural principals.

Yes God's elect will be saved, so does that give you the impression He does not want sinners to be saved as well? He wills that none should perish!!!! But He loves us and we can choose to fall or choose to follow. He has made clear His will, and He wants it to be ours as well. But, it is not forced upon us!!!!

Adam,

How can you deny the basic scripture Ref. has given you?

Again you say that God wills that none should perish.  Again I will tell you that that was written in 2 Peter which is a letter to Christians, not to all of the world.

 

Originally posted by adam332
Freedom of choice is a sign of love, not uncaring.
Your comments are totally unfounded and against the simplest of scriptural principals.

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So much for that whole "reformation movement" thing.  I can see now that all we really had to do was consult adam332 and all those learned theologians would have just easily seen how it was unfounded and against the simplest of Scriptural principles.  

Yes God's elect will be saved, so does that give you the impression He does not want sinners to be saved as well?

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Tell ya what bro, before you talk about something like, oh I don't know, the "elect," you might want to find out what they are.  The elect are no different than any other sinner until they are regenerated by God.  Then they are something totally different.  They are a new creation with new desires and a new motive in their lives.  Just so you know, not a bit of that process was initiated by the "elect."  I say again, the elect are sinners.

He wills that none should perish!!!!

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Exactly.  None of His elect.

But He loves us and we can choose to fall or choose to follow.

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Geesh . . . why didn't I see it so clearly.  We are saved because we choose to fall or follow.  Hmmm . . . wait a minute, what about the Fall?  Oh let's just forget about that pesky "fallen nature of man" thing and just go with "we can make a righteous decision to fall or follow."  Yeah, that sounds much better.

God bless

Originally posted by Gabriel
Again you say that God wills that none should perish.  Again I will tell you that that was written in 2 Peter which is a letter to Christians, not to all of the world.

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Well there's an important fact that always seems to be left out when this verse is thrown out on the table.

God bless

Originally posted by puker_33
This was a statement that was stated by my bible teacher and it created a lot of controversy, what do you think?

“ultimately you can never be outside the will of God”

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Okay I have seen no one else state this and forgive me if this is not exactly what is being discussed but it seems to fit for this thread. 

I believe that this statement “ultimately you can never be outside the will of God” can be right and wrong at the same time. 

First I hope we all believe that God is soveriegn. My Old Terstament professor suggests that this is the primary lesson for many of the chapters of the Bible and especially for Genesis 1 and 2.  But I regress.  God is sovereign.

1 Tim 6:15
15 ... He who is the blessed and only Sovereign, the King of kings and Lord of lords,
(NAU)

Since God is soveriegn God has to be in control of His creation.  Nothing can control Him.  Especially not us or our wills.  Nothing surprises God for alll things He has allowed to happen.  Hitler although he was was very evil was allowed to be born and do his evil only because God willed it in what is called by us His sovereign will.  If God did not want Hitler ot exist He would not exist.  Simple as that.  We humans are not Children that god can't control.  He let Adam sin and He has let the last sin that has been committed be committed.  He is in complete control and has a plan that will occur because He wills it.

Now I say that to say that the sunday school teachers statement is correct.  However if one changes what kind of will we are speaking about then the atatement is incorrect. God also has a moral will.  This will distingusihes between what is sin and what is not sin.  I was once dead in my sins.  I was not regenrated and was just a sinner.  At that time I was out of God's moral will.  Now some can say that now I am not out of God's moral will because I am justified but I feel that even though my sins present and future are forgiven that when I sin I am out of His moral will. 

Now the question comes is how can I be out of God's moral will but not out of His sovereign will.  Does God want me to sin? No but He gives me a choice.  I do not believe that we have freewill but God has given us a free choice to sin.  At least the Christian has a chocie to sin or not to.  But that is slightly off topic.  So God in complete sovereign control of all things in the universe gives me the ability to choose to be outside of His moral will.  He allows me to lie, cheat and steal jsut like He gives me the ability to tell the truth, play fair, or give to the needy. 

Now I can't fully explian how God can be completely sovereign and still give me a choice but I have learned more and more that God's ways are mysterious and I can't fathom them fully.  It really seems that the more deeply I learn about a subject the more I find that the end of the road is a mystery of God and His nature.  However I have faith in God and His power.  He does it and that is all there is to it.

T.W. Hunt came and did a chapel service at SWBTS and he gave a great analogy of how we can look at the mysteries of God such as this one and the Trinity.  He went more indepth but think about trying to explain our 3 dimensional world to a 2 dimensional being. now realize that scientist are saying that ther eare possibly 10 dimensions.  And then realize that however many dimensions there are God is above all of them.  So the things that might seem impossible ot reconcile to us might be able to be reconciled by God who can understand things more clearly and more of how things really are. 

Okay if I confused any by the fast retelling of his analogy I apologise.  He is coming out with a book about it soon or maybe already has.  Check it out.  I thought it was an ingenious way of looking at some age old mysteries. 

Originally posted by puker_33
hmmmm...funny...i don't see the word elect in what he said. 

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  Funny, I don't see you addressing this verse IN context.  He doesn't say elect, he says none of you.  "You" is His elect.  Why do I say this (again)?  Because this verse is found in 2 Peter and 2 Peter was a letter written to CHRISTIANS aka His elect.

Sorry reform guy,

but ya' can't show me in the Bible where God says His will is that unbelievers stay unbelievers so they can perish. So, you just sit there and keep telling yourself that it was God's will that His right hand man, betray Him and then turn one third of His angels to the dark side. Then tell yourself that it was His will that Adam and Eve got tainted with satans lies, and get kicked out of the garden He made for them.

Hmmm..... that right there proposes a little contradiction for ya'.

Please explain how it was God's will for them to live in the garden, and yet still be His will to kick them out. Did God make a mistake, did he suddenly realize that he wanted the garden empty? Or just maybe He wanted them in he Garden, but since Adam and Eve made the CHOICE to not follow God's will He had to remove them. Nah....that's too obvious.

Wasn't it God that told them not to eat of the tree. Wouldn't that be His will? Well what happened to His will when they did eat? I guess He changed His mind and decided that He wanted them to eat of it after all, huh? It must be some sort of reverse psychology to make sure they did His will, right?

Kinda' like you, your a parent right? You tell your children to run blindly into traffic, when you really want them to look both ways before crossing the street. Therefore you tricked them into doing your will by deceiving them, yeah that's the ticket. 

Go try and sell that to the reformers.

While your at it, please explain why we need to pray that God's will be done. If God's will was always done this would be like praying that God would live forever. I ain't buying your swiss cheese. And until this thread showed up I wouldn't have believed that anyone preached such an unBiblical concept.

Luke 12:47 And that servant, which knew his lord’s will, and prepared not himself, neither did according to his will, shall be beaten with many stripes.

Guess that servant didn't realize that when he was not doing the Lord's will, he was actually doing the Lord's will??????Mark 3:35 For whosoever shall do the will of God, the same is my brother, and my sister, and mother.

Whoaaaa!!! This is clearly indicating that not everybody does His will, must be that reverse psychology again, just to make us think we have a choice.Gal. 1:4 Who gave himself for our sins, that he might deliver us from this present evil world, according to the will of God and our Father:

Here we go again with that trickery, Paul implies that it is God's will that we MIGHT be delivered. Well if His will always get's done, then what's up the the "might" part?

Exactly how many holes do you like in your swiss cheese? 10 ? 20? 120? Want me to keep going? I'll be happy to since it God's will that I prove you wrong over and over in front of your little friends. Or are ya' getting the picture yet? 

Blackhawk,

that was a little closer of an understadable way of putting it, but... it still don't quite work.

How can it be God's will to allow Hitler, to murder, thus disobey His will?

Maybe it's just a little more simple than that.

How about.....

It's God's will that His creations have freedom of choice.

I can see that in some roundabout quirky way some might interpret that as; our disobedience to His will, is actually His will, because it was His will for us to have the choice of disobedienece in the first place.

As weird as that may sound, if that's the way some need to understand it, then so be it.

But, the bottom line remains is that we still have a choice, to disobey His will or not.

Originally posted by adam332
Exactly how many holes do you like in your swiss cheese? 10 ? 20? 120? Want me to keep going? I'll be happy to since it God's will that I prove you wrong over and over in front of your little friends. Or are ya' getting the picture yet?[/color][/color] 

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LOL!  Oh this is so funny!  What are you, 8, maybe 9 years old?  How ridiculous.  I got the picture.  However, the picture I get is to not continue to cast my pearls among the swine.  Gettin' that picture?

Actually, I'm ten and a half, thank ya' very much. And I am also getting the picture, that you have know idea what your talking about and you can't handle the fact that scripture shows you to be dead wrong. Therefore you call me childish and quit.

If you are a mature person,(which is insinuated when you call someone childish) then you should have no problem admitting that the scripture in no way supports your theory. But, instead teaches the exact opposite.

Back it up. Fill in the holes in your cheese. Or concede that it was your own theory and not Biblical at all. Or are you too mature to answer why the scripture shows you to be completely wrong on multiple levels.

That's what I thought....

Originally posted by adam332
Actually, I'm ten and a half, thank ya' very much. And I am also getting the picture, that you have know idea what your talking about and you can't handle the fact that scripture shows you to be dead wrong. Therefore you call me childish and quit.

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Actually, I would like to apologize.  I was wrong for saying that.  It's okay if we have different views.  Please forgive me.

God bless

Reform guy,

 ditto.

Ummm, I hope your not just saying that because you think I'm ten and a half?

I was being sarcastic, which I hope you can tell is my nature. One might even say I'm a smarta@#.

I like making fun of myself almost as much as I do others. If we were having this debate face to face, trust me, I'd have ya' crackin' up. But my brand of sarcasm is not done justice when printed out.

Of course it's ok if we have different views, God gave us the freedom of choice remember.

Sorry, I couldn't resist.

Anytime you feel like explaining the scriptural contradictions that I pointed out, let me know.

PS  I'll be 35 in a couple a weeks. So, you can call me pops.

Originally posted by adam332
Blackhawk,

that was a little closer of an understadable way of putting it, but... it still don't quite work.

How can it be God's will to allow Hitler, to murder, thus disobey His will?

Maybe it's just a little more simple than that.

How about.....

It's God's will that His creations have freedom of choice.

I can see that in some roundabout quirky way some might interpret that as; our disobedience to His will, is actually His will, because it was His will for us to have the choice of disobedienece in the first place.

As weird as that may sound, if that's the way some need to understand it, then so be it.

But, the bottom line remains is that we still have a choice, to disobey His will or not.

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it sounds like we disagree more with terminology than actual substance.  But yes it is God who gives us our free choice so it is His will that we have a choice to sin or not.  God is also sovereign so no action can take place unless God allows it to occur.  I do not think that you believe that God is somehow at the mercy of our actions.  no. He is God.  He allowed Hitler to choose to be Hitler even though that meant that hitler was going to do some terrible evils.  It did not shock Him.  He knew what would happen before time began.  One can say also that it was in His overall plan to let Hitler be that evil.  I do not understand this but I do nto see the whole picture.  I will let God be God and trust in Him. 

I do not think that you have any problems with what I jsut said.  I jsut wanted to reiterrate it one more time and maybe it would help us see that we believe close to the smae things. 

Was it Edwards that proposed the "Will of Decree" and the ehh... what was the other will? Anyway, for me the clearest example has always been Judas. The dude, in betraying Jesus, accomplished the end that God had in mind (Jesus' death), but sinned at the same time.

/p