Big Bully God

SpiritDriven · Sep 25, 2008

Hello Brinny.... I believe you about his word....certain truths leap out at me from his word.
It was like I was sensitised to it.....I think scripture even describes it...

Nobody can come to the son, unless drawn by the Father who sent him.

Peace

Hentenza · Sep 25, 2008

Tavita said:
Tavita said:

I think the point is that there is no freewill concerning Salvation and ultimately doing what God wants. Did Jonah ultimately do as God wanted him to? Of course. We may buck and scream and run the other way all we want just as Jonah did, but God will have His will done on earth as it's done in heaven.

Click to expand...

Hi Tavita,

There are two main components to the narrative of Jonah.

1. The first is the state of the faith of the ninevites. The people of Nineveh, as described in verse 2, were wicked. Notice that it is the same adjective used to describe the inhabitants of Sodom and Gomorrah. God wanted Jonah to give them a severe warning. Jonah eventually did and resulted in the ninevites repenting of their sins and being saved. The ninevites chose to listen to the warning but could have easily refused to listen. God saved Nineveh because they repented not because God forced it on them.

2. The sate of the faith of Jonah. Jonah was a Hebrew and believed in the the Hebrew God but was angry at the Ninevites for being the enemies of Israel. This clouded his faith and mind. Jonah was presented with a choice of warning the Ninevites or running away. Initially he chose to run away, however, God saved him from certain death. While in the belly of the fish, Jonah repented (see chapter 2 verse 7 but really all of his prayer has to do with repentance and a promise to follow the Lord). Jonah could have chosen not to repent. In chapter 3 Jonah does what God had initially asked him as a result of his repentance, however, what he could not have known with any certainty was that the ninevites were going to repent and be saved. This renewed Jonah's anger and again clouded his faith and mind chapter 4). Jonah once again chose to be angry at God. We don't know if Jonah repented again or not since the chapter ends without telling us. So, you see, Jonah made several choices (some good and some bad) but choices nontheless. How those choices affect his salvation we do not know simply because God knows his heart.

And of course we do make choices in our lives, but do you honestly think God would leave something so terribly important as salvation up to us? We don't get to choose where we were born, we don't choose our parents, our skin color, eye color, hair color, size, shape... whatever.. and yet we get to choose something so eternally important as where we will spend it? I don't think so.

Click to expand...

God is so loving that He does indeed gives us the choice of salvation. God did not create robots. You have to have choice so that you can choose between love and not to love. This basic biblical truth permeates the bible. Like the Ninevites, there are plenty of other people depicted in the bible that chose to not repent and consequentially suffered the consequences of their choice. If we didn't have a choice regarding our own salvation then there would have been no need for God to have sent Jesus to pay for our sins. God could have just issued a heavenly pardon. God gives us a choice in John 3:18. We can choose to "believe" in Jesus and be saved or we can choose not to "believe" in Jesus and be condemn already. The choice is ours.

HuntingMan · Sep 25, 2008

SpiritDriven said:
My experience was that everything in his immediate vicinity bows their knees and gives glory to him.....

Youre experience doesnt change the twist you played on the Jonah story.
That you misunderstood that so badly ought to tell you something SD.
Hopefully you will reevaluate your views in light of this new data.

HuntingMan · Sep 25, 2008

SpiritDriven said:
Hello Brinny.... I believe you about his word....certain truths leap out at me from his word.
It was like I was sensitised to it.....I think scripture even describes it...

Nobody can come to the son, unless drawn by the Father who sent him.

Peace

Thats right, SD...no one CAN come unless drawn....but that does not say that when drawn that NO one can RESIST.
I am not a Calvinist...I dont believe God removes our CHOICE.
Instances where God SEEMS to remove arent actually that at all.
God foreKNEW that Saul would accept Him on the Damascus road.
God FOREKNEW that Ninevah would repent from their ways when facing His prophet.
I think some of you twist the REACTIONS we see that God FOREKNEW into His actually forcing those to love, worship and obey Him.

Man DOES have the ability to reject God for one reason alone....God has GIVEN man the ability to do so.

See that you do not refuse Him who speaks. For if they did not escape, having refused Him who warned them, how much more shall we not escape if we turn away from Him who warns from heaven; whose voice then shook the earth; but now He has promised, saying, "Yet once more I shake not only the earth, but also the heaven."
(Heb 12:25-26)

how shall we escape if we neglect so great a salvation, which at the first began to be spoken by the Lord, and was confirmed unto us by those who heard Him;
(Heb 2:3 MKJV)

For it had been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than, after they have known it, to turn from the holy commandment delivered unto them.
2 Peter 2:21

For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins, But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries.

He that despised Moses' law died without mercy under two or three witnesses: Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?
For we know him that hath said, Vengeance belongeth unto me, I will recompense, saith the Lord. And again, The Lord shall judge his people. It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God.

But call to remembrance the former days, in which, after ye were illuminated, ye endured a great fight of afflictions; Partly, whilst ye were made a gazingstock both by reproaches and afflictions; and partly, whilst ye became companions of them that were so used. For ye had compassion of me in my bonds, and took joyfully the spoiling of your goods, knowing in yourselves that ye have in heaven a better and an enduring substance.
Cast not away therefore your confidence, which hath great recompence of reward. For ye have need of patience, that, after ye have done the will of God, ye might receive the promise. For yet a little while, and he that shall come will come, and will not tarry.
Now the just shall live by faith: but if any man draw back, my soul shall have no pleasure in him.
But we are not of them who draw back unto perdition; but of them that believe to the saving of the soul.
(Heb 10:26-39 KJV)

For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost, And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come, If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance;seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame . For the earth which drinketh in the rain that cometh oft upon it, and bringeth forth herbs meet for them by whom it is dressed, receiveth blessing from God: But that which beareth thorns and briers is rejected, and is nigh unto cursing; whose end is to be burned.
But, beloved, we are persuaded better things of you, and things that accompany salvation, though we thus speak.
(Heb 6:4-9 KJV)

Armistead · Sep 25, 2008

Let me show you how traditional christianity takes God's word out of context. They will state the following verses really don't mean
"all things."

So read them first as they are written in the bible. I will then
rewrite the verses and change the word "all" to "some." Anyone can clearly see how traditional christians corrupt the word of God. It becomes so obvious that it's truly corrupting God's word.

Colossians 1:15-20
15 He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation. 16 For by Him all things were created that are in heaven and that are on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or principalities or powers. All things were created through Him and for Him.

17 And He is before all things, and in Him all things consist. 18 And He is the head of the body, the church, who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead, that in all things He may have the preeminence.

19 For it pleased the Father that in Him all the fullness should dwell, 20 and by Him to reconcile (apokatallasso) all things to Himself, by Him, whether things on earth or things in heaven, having made peace through the blood of His cross.

Now, reread again changing the word "all" to "some."

Colossians 1:15-20
15 He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over some creation. 16 For by Him some things were created that are in heaven and that are on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or principalities or powers. Some things were created through Him and for Him.

17 And He is before some things, and in Him some things consist. 18 And He is the head of the body, the church, who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead, that in some things He may have the preeminence.

19 For it pleased the Father that in Him some (of)the fullness should dwell, 20 and by Him to reconcile (apokatallasso) some things to Himself, by Him, whether things on earth or things in heaven, having made peace through the blood of His cross.

So either Christ is over some things, some powers or all things. Only some things were created by him and only in some things can he have the preeminence. I would then agree with traditional christains if Christ is only
over some things, then he could only reconcile some things.

But the truth is, ALL is being used in content properly in all these verses. Traditional christians will accept ALL in all these verses, except the ALL in verse 20, that states Christ will save "reconcile" all things through the cross. The fact that all things are reconciled through the cross proves all are saved, because the cross is the saving power.

They should really rewrite the bible and place "some" in verse 20 and take the all out, because they don't believe "all"

They can't accept the word of God in context...all is all, except verse 20.

HuntingMan · Sep 25, 2008

Armistead said:
Let me show you how traditional christianity takes God's word out of context.

Thats pretty funny, Armistead, seeing that yovue been asked questions a few times that you refuse to answer and also that I went down a list of these so called evidences before and presented how you folks werent including the WHOLE context but were 'one versin it' instead.
All sorts of godless heresies can be drawn from scripture with the manner you folks study your bibles.

WE, on the other hand, prefer to take ALL of the data into account and harmonize it into a coherent whole.....rather than pretend that God is some inept old man who couldnt keep sinful men from perverting His word for 1900 years like some here clearly believe....

And these shall go away into eternal punishment,
but the righteous into eternal life.
(Mat 25:31-46 EMTV)

eternal
G166
αἰώνιος
aiōnios
ahee-o'-nee-os
From G165; perpetual (also used of past time, or past and future as well): - eternal, for ever, everlasting, world (began).

No eternal punishment = No eternal life.

Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice, And shall come forth;
they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life;
and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.
(Joh 5)

http://studies.assembly-ministries.org/viewtopic.php?f=30&t=178&start=0&st=0&sk=t&sd=a

Hentenza · Sep 25, 2008

Armistead said:
Let me show you how traditional christianity takes God's word out of context. They will state the following verses really don't mean
"all things."

So read them first as they are written in the bible. I will then
rewrite the verses and change the word "all" to "some." Anyone can clearly see how traditional christians corrupt the word of God. It becomes so obvious that it's truly corrupting God's word.

Colossians 1:15-20
15 He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation. 16 For by Him all things were created that are in heaven and that are on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or principalities or powers. All things were created through Him and for Him.

17 And He is before all things, and in Him all things consist. 18 And He is the head of the body, the church, who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead, that in all things He may have the preeminence.

19 For it pleased the Father that in Him all the fullness should dwell, 20 and by Him to reconcile (apokatallasso) all things to Himself, by Him, whether things on earth or things in heaven, having made peace through the blood of His cross.

Now, reread again changing the word "all" to "some."

Colossians 1:15-20
15 He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over some creation. 16 For by Him some things were created that are in heaven and that are on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or principalities or powers. Some things were created through Him and for Him.

17 And He is before some things, and in Him some things consist. 18 And He is the head of the body, the church, who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead, that in some things He may have the preeminence.

19 For it pleased the Father that in Him some (of)the fullness should dwell, 20 and by Him to reconcile (apokatallasso) some things to Himself, by Him, whether things on earth or things in heaven, having made peace through the blood of His cross.

So either Christ is over some things, some powers or all things. Only some things were created by him and only in some things can he have the preeminence. I would then agree with traditional christains if Christ is only
over some things, then he could only reconcile some things.

But the truth is, ALL is being used in content properly in all these verses. Traditional christians will accept ALL in all these verses, except the ALL in verse 20, that states Christ will save "reconcile" all things through the cross. The fact that all things are reconciled through the cross proves all are saved, because the cross is the saving power.

They should really rewrite the bible and place "some" in verse 20 and take the all out, because they don't believe "all"

They can't accept the word of God in context...all is all, except verse 20.

Please see my response to your duplicate post above by following this link.

Thanks.

Amethystia · Sep 25, 2008

SpiritDriven said:
Yes I saw Jonah struggle and protest against God, every step of the way, while Jonah did exactly what God wanted him to do anyway....

That is why a wicked and adulterus generation will only be given the sign of Jonah....and no further explaination shall be given them....according to Jesus.

Can we consider this... that the pharisees (and their generation) were those Jesus spoke of who should have known that Jesus was the Messiah by the 'sign' given through Jonah. This 'sign' had more to do with Jonah's time in the fish, symbolizing Jesus' three days of suffering, death, burial and resurrection.

It's a stretch to support the doctrine of 'UR' from Jonah's sign.

HuntingMan · Sep 25, 2008

Well, I think there is enough information in these threads for the readers to check out.
I believe Ill pull out of these UR vs ET threads entirely at this point.
You folks have a great day.

READERS SEE posts #1 and #2 here for the undeniable truth about eternal punishment
http://christianforums.com/showthread.php?t=7278950

Tavita · Sep 25, 2008

Hentenza said:
Hi Tavita,

There are two main components to the narrative of Jonah.

1. The first is the state of the faith of the ninevites. The people of Nineveh, as described in verse 2, were wicked. Notice that it is the same adjective used to describe the inhabitants of Sodom and Gomorrah. God wanted Jonah to give them a severe warning. Jonah eventually did and resulted in the ninevites repenting of their sins and being saved. The ninevites chose to listen to the warning but could have easily refused to listen. God saved Nineveh because they repented not because God forced it on them.

2. The sate of the faith of Jonah. Jonah was a Hebrew and believed in the the Hebrew God but was angry at the Ninevites for being the enemies of Israel. This clouded his faith and mind. Jonah was presented with a choice of warning the Ninevites or running away. Initially he chose to run away, however, God saved him from certain death. While in the belly of the fish, Jonah repented (see chapter 2 verse 7 but really all of his prayer has to do with repentance and a promise to follow the Lord). Jonah could have chosen not to repent. In chapter 3 Jonah does what God had initially asked him as a result of his repentance, however, what he could not have known with any certainty was that the ninevites were going to repent and be saved. This renewed Jonah's anger and again clouded his faith and mind chapter 4). Jonah once again chose to be angry at God. We don't know if Jonah repented again or not since the chapter ends without telling us. So, you see, Jonah made several choices (some good and some bad) but choices nontheless. How those choices affect his salvation we do not know simply because God knows his heart.

God is so loving that He does indeed gives us the choice of salvation. God did not create robots. You have to have choice so that you can choose between love and not to love. This basic biblical truth permeates the bible. Like the Ninevites, there are plenty of other people depicted in the bible that chose to not repent and consequentially suffered the consequences of their choice. If we didn't have a choice regarding our own salvation then there would have been no need for God to have sent Jesus to pay for our sins. God could have just issued a heavenly pardon. God gives us a choice in John 3:18. We can choose to "believe" in Jesus and be saved or we can choose not to "believe" in Jesus and be condemn already. The choice is ours.

Click to expand...

Thank you for being so fair and being willing to discuss things in a mature way, Hentenza.

Yes, Jonah, made choices, but he ultimately did what God wanted him to do. And yes, there are consequences for our choices, I agree with you.

I have to wonder when we speak of being able to say that we made the choice for salvation by that so-called Freewill, that we might forget sometimes that if it wasn't for Holy Spirit working in our lives we wouldn't be able to repent, wouldn't have our eyes opened to Him, and wouldn't be able to say that final 'Yes!', that final decision. When we speak of Freewill in these forums and how we think we have the choice I think most of us forget that unless He did all the work to bring us to that point of Yes, then we would still be in our sins. We cannot come to Him on our own apart from the Holy Spirit's convicting work. This is where I don't agree with the perspective of us thinking we make the choice on our own. When we make that final decision it's because our will has been brought into submission to His will by the power of the Holy Spirit... and then in our pride we get to believing we did it all on our own, without His influence, without His dragging, so to speak.

I believe in the Hound Of Heaven, who pursues us until He has captivated us. Much as a man wins over the love of a woman (I'm not being literal here). I'm quite sure He is able to win over anyone He wills to win, whenever He chooses to do so. I don't believe there is a person alive (or dead) who is able to stand up to His persuasion, or drawing power, or the power of His love, even though we may struggle and fight against it for a certain time. Is someone who has been conquered and overpowered by the love of God now a 'robot'?

Rafael · Sep 25, 2008

Tavita said:
Hentenza said:

Thank you for being so fair and being willing to discuss things in a mature way, Hentenza.

Yes, Jonah, made choices, but he ultimately did what God wanted him to do. And yes, there are consequences for our choices, I agree with you.

I have to wonder when we speak of being able to say that we made the choice for salvation by that so-called Freewill, that we might forget sometimes that if it wasn't for Holy Spirit working in our lives we wouldn't be able to repent, wouldn't have our eyes opened to Him, and wouldn't be able to say that final 'Yes!', that final decision. When we speak of Freewill in these forums and how we think we have the choice I think most of us forget that unless He did all the work to bring us to that point of Yes, then we would still be in our sins. We cannot come to Him on our own apart from the Holy Spirit's convicting work. This is where I don't agree with the perspective of us thinking we make the choice on our own. When we make that final decision it's because our will has been brought into submission to His will by the power of the Holy Spirit... and then in our pride we get to believing we did it all on our own, without His influence, without His dragging, so to speak.

I believe in the Hound Of Heaven, who pursues us until He has captivated us. Much as a man wins over the love of a woman (I'm not being literal here). I'm quite sure He is able to win over anyone He wills to win, whenever He chooses to do so. I don't believe there is a person alive (or dead) who is able to stand up to His persuasion, or drawing power, or the power of His love, even though we may struggle and fight against it for a certain time. Is someone who has been conquered and overpowered by the love of God now a 'robot'?

Click to expand...

Such a good post and observation..! Reminds me of the Song of Solomon who pursues and woos His love.
Indeed, love is one of the "eternal" things listed as so in 1 Corinthians:
1 Cor.13:13 Three things will last foreverfaith, hope, and loveand the greatest of these is love.
Fear does not woo and draw one near or motivate eternal love, and fear of judgment is cast away when love is perfected. Love conquors all....

Poverello78 · Sep 25, 2008

Emmy said:
Dear Poverello78. I agree with what you said, " once God forces His will upon a man, it is no longer a man." Jonah did run away from God, but God knows us well, God knew that Jonah was the very person to save Nineveh, and in the end Jonah realised it himself and thanked God. Often when I pray, I emplore the Lord to do His will with me, because He Always knows what is best for me. God will not force us, He wants our love freely given. Sincere greetings from Emmy, your sister in Christ.

Thanks Emmy. I was hoping someone might understand what I meant without my having to explain it.

Brother

Poverello78 · Sep 25, 2008

Nadiine said:
Actually God can usurp man's heart or actions.

How many pedophile's, murderers, kidnappers or arsonists attempts to harm others have been thwarted by God's hand directly? Or God's persuasion over their heart NOT to commit heinous crimes? etc.

The minute God stops us from accomplishing any type of evil - or puts it in someone's heart not to do something, He's usurped will.

Man has freedom of CHOICE, but God can and does usurp our will - our will is basically usurped when truth of God remains while men don't want it to remain. Man is overridden by God's laws; no matter how he may rebel & dislike them. He is left only to choices.

You seem to understand the difference between God controlling the will of a man and God altering the outcome of a man's willed decision. The former would take the 'humanity' right out of a man and render him merely a 'witless animal', the latter would be called a miracle.

SpiritDriven · Sep 25, 2008

HuntingMan said:
Thats right, SD...no one CAN come unless drawn....but that does not say that when drawn that NO one can RESIST.
I am not a Calvinist...I dont believe God removes our CHOICE.
Instances where God SEEMS to remove arent actually that at all.
God foreKNEW that Saul would accept Him on the Damascus road.
God FOREKNEW that Ninevah would repent from their ways when facing His prophet.
I think some of you twist the REACTIONS we see that God FOREKNEW into His actually forcing those to love, worship and obey Him.

Man DOES have the ability to reject God for one reason alone....God has GIVEN man the ability to do so.

Romans 9-19 tells us that nobody can resist his intention, some Bibles translate...nobody can resist his will.....

HuntingMan · Sep 25, 2008

HuntingMan said:
READERS SEE posts #1 and #2 here for the undeniable truth about eternal punishment
http://christianforums.com/showthread.php?t=7278950

...

Armistead · Sep 25, 2008

Poverello78 said:
You seem to understand the difference between God controlling the will of a man and God altering the outcome of a man's willed decision. The former would take the 'humanity' right out of a man and render him merely a 'witless animal', the latter would be called a miracle.

Over all I agree. However, God doesn't force change or his will. God can
teach or explain in his way..to change the hearts of men...conforming men to his will. Take Paul...God did not force him to change, but he certainly changed his mind. Now, one can argue that God did by his actions will Paul
into change, but I don't see it that way.

God doesn't force, he conforms men to his will.

God certainly has set up universal law...it rains on the just and unjust.

artybloke · Sep 26, 2008

brinny said:
you didn't answer the question...you just sorta rambled about how one might be able to mix one verse with another to use as manipulation to confuse others. Sooooo...is that how you respond to someone who honestly is asking you why you believe what you do?

Well, my faith is in Christ, not a book; and behind me are 2000 years' worth of theological thinking. Including, but not exclusively, modern theological thinking. And including, but not exclusively, the Biblical record.

Bible, tradition, reason; oh, and lastly, my own experience. The Methodist Quadrilateral, if you like.

Then, of course, there's the Holy Spirit. But I don't own the Holy Spirit, and people with whom I disagree also have the Holy Spirit. So working which is Spirit and which is not is a lot harder than people think.

Big Bully God

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