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Why does God need to torture?
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Yes, Jesus is the bridge between God and us. He died on the cross to conquer sin and death.
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Ok, we're on the same page here at the moment.
How did He conquer sin and death, specifically? Why was His death necessary?
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3rddaymessenger
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I prefer to go to the Holy Spirit for my "definitions" and Revelation...thank you very much.
Since when did the Hebrew or Greek language have a corner on what God was talking about? The Holy Spirit supercedes it all and brings the true context, purpose and meaning to the heart of those to whom God desires to reveal these things.
Whole different ball game than "word-studies" and intellectual 'excavating'! Like, waaaayyyy different!
Eternal Life-Himself shows me of the Truth...and He won't be there dwelling inside these souls condemned to burning and innihilation. The lake of fire is a destroying fire...not a quickening fire. You got that mixed up with the Tree of Life.
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His death was necessary because the wages of sin is death; His sacrificing of Himself on the cross is what achieved that victory.
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Why are the wages of sin, death. What does death mean? What is God's wrath? How does this fit into the picture, if at all? Does it?
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Because that's the system God established to pay for it.
Spiritual death results in nonexistence after physical death.
It's His response to the presence of sin. Not everyone will agree with me on where I place His wrath on the historical timeline, but I have come to believe that it was poured out, in full, through the fall of Jerusalem in AD70, to which the prophecies outlined in Revelation refer.
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HuntingMan
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Yes or no.....the bible is the written word of God and gives instruction to His people.
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Because that's the system God established to pay for it.
How does God's holiness fit in this picture. Does it?
What does death mean?
Spiritual death results in nonexistence after physical death.
what Bible verses are you basing this on?What is God's wrath? How does this fit into the picture, if at all? Does it?
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Gods Holiness fits wherever God Himself does, so yes, it fits here too!
The basic understanding of death as suggested in the OT. (Psalm 88:5, Psalm 88:10-11, Job 7:8-10)
It's His response to the presence of sin. Not everyone will agree with me on where I place His wrath on the historical timeline, but I have come to believe that it was poured out, in full, through the fall of Jerusalem in AD70, to which the prophecies outlined in Revelation refer.
No, we've been talking about God, death, and wrath. So why are you taking the time to even ask that?
This statement seems tailored to those who dont think wrath is mentioned in the Bible at all. Since you're directing this statement to me, could you show me where I have suggested that wrath isnt mentioned at all?
Im not sure incorrugible is a word. What label for Him were you trying to use here?
Yes, it was a very grim time for Jerusalem, I agree.
You dont know what woe means?
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HuntingMan
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Sorry again, but Revelation shows that those who died for not taking the mark would be reigning with Christ for 1000 years....where are they ?
And I saw thrones, and they sat on them, and judgment was given to them. And I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded for the witness of Jesus and for the Word of God, and who had not worshiped the beast nor his image, nor had received his mark on their foreheads, nor in their hands. And they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.
(Rev 20:4 MKJV)
And *IF* this nonsense were actually true, again, its been almost 2000 years....someone seems to have forgotten to set their alarm clock
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hee hee hi chaela...thought yu ran me off, did ya?
like the blue rose by the way...
and yes, i'll be back...you've answered the questions in a way that seemed to dodge the spirit of what i meant by them...and this multiple quote feature does not work for me.....it's a real maze to try to answer a series of questions, at least for me...
been thinkin' about hell...here's a video with some ideas on what it might be like...kinda reminds me of the Twilight Zone, where all the twists and turns in your deepest recesses of your mind ..those deepest of fears and horror are what await you in hell...and there's no escape...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=StTRdtvfMcQ&feature=related
like the blue rose by the way...
and yes, i'll be back...you've answered the questions in a way that seemed to dodge the spirit of what i meant by them...and this multiple quote feature does not work for me.....it's a real maze to try to answer a series of questions, at least for me...
been thinkin' about hell...here's a video with some ideas on what it might be like...kinda reminds me of the Twilight Zone, where all the twists and turns in your deepest recesses of your mind ..those deepest of fears and horror are what await you in hell...and there's no escape...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=StTRdtvfMcQ&feature=related
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hee hee hi chaela...thought yu ran me off, did ya?
like the blue rose by the way...
and yes, i'll be back...you've answered the questions in a way that seemed to dodge the spirit of what i meant by them...and this multiple quote feature does not work for me.....it's a real maze to try to answer a series of questions, at least for me...
been thinkin' about hell...here's a video with some ideas on what it might be like...kinda reminds me of the Twilight Zone, where all the twists and turns in your deepest recesses of your mind ..those deepest of fears and horror are what await you in hell...and there's no escape...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=StTRdtvfMcQ&feature=related
Yes, you seem to be quite entertained by videos about hell. I have no use for them myself, but thanks for the offer!
"Dodging the spirit" of your questions... a conveniently nebulous interpretation of my efforts to answer them. I'll take that to mean your questions have been answered quite effectively, in a way that gives you much food for thought. I can totally understand why you'd want a little break right now.
Have a great day, Brinny!
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Dear Armistead. What are you saying? Why do you make God out to be like Satan? God is Love, He has proven it again and again. Jesus came to show us God as He really is, a loving Heavenly Father who wants us back again, who has made us in his image. To say " hell is God`s eternal torture chamber, where the great part of humanity will go," is an outright untruth. How can a God of Love, be compared to a torturer? Jesus died that we might live, Jesus told us to become as perfect as God is perfect, and what is God`s greatest Perfection? His LOVE. What do we have to learn on Earth? 1) to " love God with all our hearts, with all our souls, and with all our minds. and 2) love each other as we loverour selves." Repent, exchange our selfishness into loving selflessly, loving and giving with no strings attached, treating all others as we would like to be treated ourselves. That is God`s Plan for Mankind, Armistead, and God`s Holy Spirit is in the world to redeem as many as want to come, and we might be sure, that God makes provision for all, to know Him and His Love for us all. God will not force us, and there will be some who do not want the Love and Forgiveness God freely offers, but I can only think that Satan`s followers will end up in hell. Satan detests all love and goodness, and sadly there will be some men and women who approve of this, and will follow Satan into hell. I say this humbly and kindly, and send greetings. Emmy, sister in Christ.
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Emmy, you clearly have not been reading my post. Others preach about God's eternal torture chamber, I do not believe God will torture anyone.
However, it seems you do. I doubt you've read all we've been discussing in all the UR/ET debates and we've covered all you've asked.
I underestand you think those that go to hell to be tortured, go their by their own accord. I can assure you no man wants to go to hell. The bible tells us there is only one way into heaven...Jesus Christ. However, the majority of mankind has never heard the gospel or even the name Christ.
How can they enter heaven if Jesus is the only way, yet they have never heard. Sadly, traditional Christianity creates many ways for man to get to heaven for those that haven't heard, but they deny that Christ is the only way. Also, there are thousands of human factors that may lead people not to accept Christ, even if they have heard the gospel. Consider the millions of Jews that died in Hitlers torture camps. Most didn't accept Christ as the messiah. If traditional Christianity is correct, they only traded Hitlers
torture for God's torture..it doesn't matter that they loved God, they will be tortured by him unending. If you were born in Iran, you would be Muslim...so many human factors. The fact is very few have the true knowledge of Christ and the gospel. Should they be tortured forever?
Instead of going through it all again, I encourage you to read and get involved in the many debates going on.
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Yes, he is the bridge to bring all men back to God. I explained this before, so read again. Let me show you how traditional christianity takes God's word out of context. They will state the following verses really don't mean
"all things."
So read them first as they are written in the bible. I will then
rewrite the verses and change the word "all" to "some." Anyone can clearly see how traditional christians corrupt the word of God. It becomes so obvious that it's truly corrupting God's word.
Colossians 1:15-20
15 He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation. 16 For by Him all things were created that are in heaven and that are on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or principalities or powers. All things were created through Him and for Him.
17 And He is before all things, and in Him all things consist. 18 And He is the head of the body, the church, who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead, that in all things He may have the preeminence.
19 For it pleased the Father that in Him all the fullness should dwell, 20 and by Him to reconcile (apokatallasso) all things to Himself, by Him, whether things on earth or things in heaven, having made peace through the blood of His cross.
Now, reread again changing the word "all" to "some."
Colossians 1:15-20
15 He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over some creation. 16 For by Him some things were created that are in heaven and that are on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or principalities or powers. Some things were created through Him and for Him.
17 And He is before some things, and in Him some things consist. 18 And He is the head of the body, the church, who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead, that in some things He may have the preeminence.
19 For it pleased the Father that in Him some (of)the fullness should dwell, 20 and by Him to reconcile (apokatallasso) some things to Himself, by Him, whether things on earth or things in heaven, having made peace through the blood of His cross.
So either Christ is over some things and some powers or all things. Only some things were created by him and only in some things can he have the preeminence. I would then agree with traditional christains if Christ is only
over some things, then he could only reconcile some things.
But the truth is, ALL is being used in content properly in all these verses. Traditional christians will accept ALL in all these verses, except the ALL in verse 20, that states Christ will save reconcile all things through the cross. The fact that all things are reconciled through the cross proves all are saved, because the cross is the saving power.
They should really rewrite the bible and place "some" in verse 20 and take the all out, because they don't believe "all"
They can't accept the word of God in context...all is all, except verse 20.
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HuntingMan
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Just like they should really rewrite the bible for you folks and remove the word 'eternal'....as in ETERNAL PUNISHMENT and ETERNAL LIFE....
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Heres a problem I see with the belief that people end up in Hell by their own choice:
If you believe that those who end up in hell are responsible for that happening -- that it's their own fault they're going to hell -- then you must apply the same logic to your not ending up in hell and conclude that it's to your own credit you're going to heaven.
If you really think that those in hell deserve to be there, you cannot avoid thinking that you, in turn, deserve your salvation. If that's the case, then you are espousing the belief in salvation by works: that one's personal performance is what saves them.
Conversely, if you believe that you end up in heaven through no merit on your part, you have to conclude that people end up in hell through no fault on their part. But this sounds an awful lot like Calvinism, doesn't it?
No worries The remedy for that is to simply believe that all mankind will be saved.
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Just like they should really rewrite the bible for you folks and remove the word 'eternal'....as in ETERNAL PUNISHMENT and ETERNAL LIFE....
Well actually most bible makers and publishes are rewriting the bible, using
proper greek translation. Finally, they are fixing and correcting hell and how it was used..
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