Many Profs R afraid to teach Universal Reconciliation even if they believe it.

...anything that sheds doubt on the validity of Gods word seems to be of interest to some round here.

Originally Posted by Stinker

HuntingMan said:

INteresting.
So this means that for 2000 years the church has NOT had the truth God presented to her and the pharisees managed to corrupt GODS word.
One has to wonder if God even exists if He cannot even protect His word to the church, kwim ?

And whats even funnier than that is....WHAT ELSE have we been lied to about? Why do universalists conveniently leave it at eternal torment that has supposedly been so badly corrupted in Gods word?

If we used half of our reasoning ability here we'd HAVE to conclude that if THIS big an point in the bible has been so horribly mangled by scholars thru the centuries the if we are honest with ourselves NONE of it can be trusted...not one single word because WE dont have any proof of what was actually in the original autographs...do we

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First of all, one has to believe that God exists. If that person truly does, they will know that this being put the sense of moral right and moral wrong in each one of us. That this is innate in each person. Then, no matter what obstacle moral evil has put in our way of finding the truth, we will not be deterred from a life of truth hunting. If we find that the scriptures that have come down to us from ancient times contains some error, I think we should not be afraid to go back and check it out.

First of all, one has to believe that God exists.

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...for ???

If that person truly does, they will know that this being put the sense of moral right and moral wrong in each one of us.

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Each of us ?
Really ?
Adolf Hitler ?
Charles Manson ?

I think you may believe that this is the case, but the evidence doesnt seem to support the idea.

That this is innate in each person.

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Not based on any real observation of mankind.
'each of us' is stretching it a bit.
Romans shows that there are definitely those without the law who have the law written on their hearts, but this in no way states that this applies to 'each' and every individual.

Then, no matter what obstacle moral evil has put in our way of finding the truth, we will not be deterred from a life of truth hunting. If we find that the scriptures that have come down to us from ancient times contains some error, I think we should not be afraid to go back and check it out.

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Yeah...well, I hope you can raise Paul and other NT writers from the dead and get their take on things....otherwise theres no way to confirm a single thing other than to look at the HISTORY of the church and what she has passed down one generation to the next.

And Ill repeat it for you that if there is this huge of an error in Gods word then we cannot trust even a single word of it.
WHO gets to decide what was accurately handed down and what wasnt ? You ? Universalists ?
An AGAIN this would mean that GOD was not able to preserve His word for His people.

DanielPatrick said:

From what I have read, there are many professors of theology who, if cornered, will confess that the "restoration of ALL things" is NOT unscriptural, (ha!-how can they since it IS a scripture!) but that they wouln't dare teach it for fear of running afoul of the doctrine of eternal torture that their particular brand of Christianity supports. They are afraid of coming against the institutionalized ignorance of their university or Bible college also, and probably this is the main reason, they are afraid of losing tenure as a teacher or professor. After all, what does a person do in the 'real world' with a degree in theology?-- maybe they would have to 'make tents' like the Apostle Paul.--Ha, Ha.

The scripture that comes to mind for them is " who ALL their lifetime were subject to BONDAGE through FEAR of LOSING TENURE" or friends or peer pressure etc etc. a bunch of fraidy cats.

The doctrine of eternal torment is a doctrine of devils that keeps Christians in bondage to fear and also ties them down to the 'heavy burdens' of the Pharisees who run most of Christendom.

That's my two cents.

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Well said, Daniel Patrick,
It is truly ironic that the so called heresy hunters of today will be those who put to death the true good news - the one that truly sets free and saves. They seem to think going through the fire is a small thing, but it is Jesus' example to us that we must follow - crucifixtion of the flesh of self and then new life. The fire of affliction was not spared our Lord, and all must follow Him through the cleansing fire of God. Can anyone say that suffering like Him is not enough for this age or the next to come - yet they do and will, with some puffed up self-sense of judgment that has nothing to do with the love of God for His creation - emphasize of HIS creation - not ours. Let fear of God be reserved for reverence, for our God is a consuming fire.

SpiritDriven said:

I was reading a rather inspiring Manifesto the other day, from the Web Site of a well known evangelist, I wanted to share some of it here with you....

The phrase .christian Pharisees. is an insightful one. It fingers a truth that we ourselves have lost touch of.
Because the Pharisees of our Lord.s day rejected Him and endorsed His death, the very word .Pharisee.
makes us cringe. The term has become synonymous with .bad person.. In this, we have become thoroughly
deceived, and have therefore grown ineffective in our evangelism, especially in the important aspect of
exposure and rebuke (2 Tim. 4:2). The Pharisees were every bit as socially respected as today.s most wellregarded
cleric. There was nothing outwardly evil about them. In fact, they were outwardly righteous. (This
is why Jesus called them whitewashed tombs.) But they loved tradition more than truth. (Note how Jesus
equated false teaching with death.)​

The Pharisees were thoroughly convinced in their own minds that they were the finest sons of Abraham.
Few of us can imagine the wide eyes, the open mouths, the flared nostrils that ensued when a poorly-dressed,
religious nobody from Nazareth told these people (yes, they were people) that they were not sons of
Abraham, they were sons of Satan. It would be the equivalent of you or me telling a congregation of songsinging
Christians at the Methodist church this Sunday: .If you people were truly servants of Christ, you
would be teaching His doctrines. But you are teaching instead the doctrines of demons. Therefore, in truth,​

you are servants of Satan..

Spot on....

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The early church was UR until pagan influence of torture took over as a tool to control man. It'a amazing to study how religion has evolved and traditions have changed so many times and the human touch has created so many denominations.

This is very true. However many Bible believing UR churches are spreading today. I was a long time member of a Southern Baptist Church and still go there to work with the youth group at times. However, we do have a large
UR church where I live..in a rather small town in NC. The pastor was a baptist that found the truth to UR. It is now my church home.

I debated off and on for a year with my Pastor at the SBC when I was a member there. I taught Sunday School there. I finally confessed to all I was UR and lost my position. I spent about another year there. I had many talks and debates with the pastor. He even admits he understands there are many possible truths to it, but errs on the side of ET. It's a large church and he stated, even if he found it true, he feels the Lord wants him working there. Like most, when you get into the depths of UR, they
can't argue against the truth of it. There are many that are UR, but not willing to lose their position.

So fear is preached and people submit to God out of fear of being toasted
and tortured by God. Just think if we based our relationships with other people like most have a relationship with God. Obvious, that's why religion is responsible for so many murders. However, I do know many women that stay with men out of fear of being killed, stalked, ect....basically that's the same relationship most christians have with God.

So sad...God doesn't want forced love, but that's what the world really teaches. Sunday morning alter calls are nothing more than people going to get there get out of hell free card, not understanding the love of Christ.

The doctrine of eternal torment is a doctrine of devils that keeps Christians in bondage to fear and also ties them down to the 'heavy burdens' of the Pharisees who run most of Christendom.

Armistead said:

The early church was UR until pagan influence of torture took over as a tool to control man.

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Any actual historical church references that you can cite to support this assertion, Armistead....or are we just supposed to accept it as fact without questioning ?
I can ask as often as necessary till you feel that you might OWE the readers here some REAL support for this statement.

The doctrine of eternal torment is a doctrine of devils

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Oddly enough, if your interpretation is false, that would mean YOU have blasphemed the Holy Spirit Himself by attributing His teachings to that of devils.
Also as odd is that I see no reference to these 'doctrines of devils' even mentioning eternal torment in scripture.

Rafael said:

It is truly ironic that the so called heresy hunters of today will be those who put to death the true good news

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Even more ironic is some claiming to preach christianity who very clearly teach contradictory to the doctrines of Christ Himself and of His chosen apostles.

It is interesting to note that I Timothy 4 shows us beyond any doubt...in Gods own Word, that any Doctrine in oppostion to God being the Saviour of all especially of believers is the Doctrine of the demon....

I Timothy 4...

1. Now the spirit is saying explicitly, that in subsequent eras some will be withdrawing from the faith, giving heed to deceiving spirits and the teachings of demons,
2 in the hypocrisy of false expressions, their own conscience having been cauterized;
3 forbidding to marry, abstaining from foods, which God creates to be partaken of with thanksgiving by those who believe and realize the truth,
4 seeing that every creature of God is ideal and nothing is to be cast away, being taken with thanksgiving,
5 for it is hallowed through the word of God and pleading.
6 By suggesting these things to the brethren, you should be an ideal servant of Christ Jesus, fostering with the words of faith and of the ideal teaching which you have fully followed.
7 Now profane and old womanish myths refuse, yet exercise yourself in devoutness,
8 for bodily exercise is beneficial for a few things, yet devoutness is beneficial for all, having promise for the life which now is, and that which is impending.
9 Faithful is the saying and worthy of all welcome
10 (for for this are we toiling and being reproached), that we rely on the living God, Who is the Saviour of all mankind,
11 especially of believers. These things be charging and teaching.

I Timothy 4 is very clear on this....who else but those with a cauterised conciense, would preach such a harrowing end to Gods great plan of salvation like eternal torment.

One thing I have noticed, is the truth is starting to get out among believers about Gods intentions towards all men.

I do not think the over whelming body of evidence shown from scripture can account for this, the Holy Spirit is moving in people....there was a time when even posting about Universal Salvation in a forum like this would have seen you banned...now not only is there no further danger of that happening I have seen a growing number of what I Timothy 4 describes as .....especially of believers....posting here more and more often.

Truly as it says in Scripture, that in the last days knowledge will increase (knowledge of God)

Peace

Each of us ?
Really ?
Adolf Hitler ?
Charles Manson ?

I think you may believe that this is the case, but the evidence doesnt seem to support the idea. [HuntingMan]

Not based on any real observation of mankind.
'each of us' is stretching it a bit.
Romans shows that there are definitely those without the law who have the law written on their hearts, but this in no way states that this applies to 'each' and every individual. [HuntingMan] {from post #23}


I think C.S. Lewis explains the Moral Law best:


"Why ought I to be unselfish?" and you reply "Because it is good for society." we may then ask, "Why should I care what's good for society except when it happens to pay me personally?" and you will have to say, "Because you ought to be unselfish- which simply brings us backto where we started.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Later Mr. Lewis expounds on this a bit:


And that is where I do stop. Men OUGHT to be unselfish, ought to be fair. Not that men ARE
unselfish, nor that they like being unselfish, but that they ought to be. ......Rule of
Right and wrong, or Law of Human Nature, or whatever you call it, must somehow or other be a real thing-a thing that is really there, not made up by ourselves. Mr. Lewis shortly later says: It begins to look as if we shall have to have to admit that there is more than one kind of reality; that, in this particular case, there is something above and beyond the ordinary facts of men's behaviour, and yet quite definitely real- a real law, which none of us has made, but which we find pressing on us.

3. The Reality of the Law
Mere Christianity by C.S. Lewis

Had anyone stopped to think that man's NATURAL destination without salvation IS HELL? The lost ARE fully "restored" to their rightful place for eternity.

It's the intervention of Christ to SAVE the lost, unregenerate soul from his natural destination of being separated from God eternally.
All is restored as God deems by His own judgment - some are restored to eternal life THRU their faith (accepting His salvation) and many are restored to their original destination without that conversion - no regeneration of their spirit.

People love to read in what they like of the bible and then exacto knife out all the many verses that teach eternal condemnation for the rebellious who reject Christ's gift of salvation thru FAITH.

I'm glad if a Prof. doesn't teach universalism if he believes it's true.

HuntingMan said:

Even more ironic is some claiming to preach christianity who very clearly teach contradictory to the doctrines of Christ Himself and of His chosen apostles.

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Yes, and the ones who do that even quote the verses about people who abandon the truth to follow false doctrines of demons.
IRONIC.

Im not a CS Lewis fan, so Ill pass

Stinker said:

If that person truly does, they will know that this being put the sense of moral right and moral wrong in each one of us. [Stinker]
​

Each of us ?
Really ?
Adolf Hitler ?
Charles Manson ?

I think you may believe that this is the case, but the evidence doesnt seem to support the idea. [HuntingMan]

That this is innate in each person. [Stinker]
​

Not based on any real observation of mankind.
'each of us' is stretching it a bit.
Romans shows that there are definitely those without the law who have the law written on their hearts, but this in no way states that this applies to 'each' and every individual. [HuntingMan] {from post #23}


I think C.S. Lewis explains the Moral Law best:


"Why ought I to be unselfish?" and you reply "Because it is good for society." we may then ask, "Why should I care what's good for society except when it happens to pay me personally?" and you will have to say, "Because you ought to be unselfish- which simply brings us backto where we started.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Later Mr. Lewis expounds on this a bit:


And that is where I do stop. Men OUGHT to be unselfish, ought to be fair. Not that men ARE
unselfish, nor that they like being unselfish, but that they ought to be. ......Rule of
Right and wrong, or Law of Human Nature, or whatever you call it, must somehow or other be a real thing-a thing that is really there, not made up by ourselves. Mr. Lewis shortly later says: It begins to look as if we shall have to have to admit that there is more than one kind of reality; that, in this particular case, there is something above and beyond the ordinary facts of men's behaviour, and yet quite definitely real- a real law, which none of us has made, but which we find pressing on us.

3. The Reality of the Law
Mere Christianity by C.S. Lewis

Click to expand...

SpiritDriven said:

It is interesting to note that I Timothy 4 shows us beyond any doubt...in Gods own Word, that any Doctrine in oppostion to God being the Saviour of all especially of believers is the Doctrine of the demon....

I Timothy 4...

1. Now the spirit is saying explicitly, that in subsequent eras some will be withdrawing from the faith, giving heed to deceiving spirits and the teachings of demons,
2 in the hypocrisy of false expressions, their own conscience having been cauterized;
3 forbidding to marry, abstaining from foods, which God creates to be partaken of with thanksgiving by those who believe and realize the truth,
4 seeing that every creature of God is ideal and nothing is to be cast away, being taken with thanksgiving,
5 for it is hallowed through the word of God and pleading.
6 By suggesting these things to the brethren, you should be an ideal servant of Christ Jesus, fostering with the words of faith and of the ideal teaching which you have fully followed.
7 Now profane and old womanish myths refuse, yet exercise yourself in devoutness,
8 for bodily exercise is beneficial for a few things, yet devoutness is beneficial for all, having promise for the life which now is, and that which is impending.
9 Faithful is the saying and worthy of all welcome
10 (for for this are we toiling and being reproached), that we rely on the living God, Who is the Saviour of all mankind,
11 especially of believers. These things be charging and teaching.

I Timothy 4 is very clear on this....who else but those with a cauterised conciense, would preach such a harrowing end to Gods great plan of salvation like eternal torment.

One thing I have noticed, is the truth is starting to get out among believers about Gods intentions towards all men.

I do not think the over whelming body of evidence shown from scripture can account for this, the Holy Spirit is moving in people....there was a time when even posting about Universal Salvation in a forum like this would have seen you banned...now not only is there no further danger of that happening I have seen a growing number of what I Timothy 4 describes as .....especially of believers....posting here more and more often.

Truly as it says in Scripture, that in the last days knowledge will increase (knowledge of God)

Peace

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Im sorry, I just dont see where anything you have presented nullifies Christs words elsewhere.
I think you are MISunderstanding the intent.
Jesus IS the Savior of all mankind. That doesnt mean that ALL of mankind will COME TO their Savior.
The FACT is the the word as a WHOLE proves CONCLUSIVELY that not ALL men will come to Him.
You need to quit running to your pet passages and accept the WHOLE truth of God

Christs words to the Jews, where to the Jews, and he forbade them to go via the road of the Nations, when speaking thus, and he was speaking of Gehenna the place of Punishment for....mortals....during the millenium reign.

We cannot ignore Gods word where it says that every knee under the Earth on the surface of the Earth and in the Heavenlies will bow, and with their tounges confess Jesus is Lord.

I think the Parable of the sheperd leaving behind the entire flock to seek out the one single lamb that had become lost, gives us insight as to how not one will be lost to God...because the parable continues on until the...Good Sheperd...found the Lamb that was lost, and returned it to the Fold.

The teaching of those who oppose the Good Sheperd seems to be that non believers are not saved....the teaching of those who belong to the Good Sheperd is that one day...all... will be believers.

We have never once strayed from that teaching path.

Grace and Peace to you all.

Nadiine said:

Had anyone stopped to think that man's NATURAL destination without salvation IS HELL? The lost ARE fully "restored" to their rightful place for eternity.

It's the intervention of Christ to SAVE the lost, unregenerate soul from his natural destination of being separated from God eternally.
All is restored as God deems by His own judgment - some are restored to eternal life THRU their faith (accepting His salvation) and many are restored to their original destination without that conversion - no regeneration of their spirit.

People love to read in what they like of the bible and then exacto knife out all the many verses that teach eternal condemnation for the rebellious who reject Christ's gift of salvation thru FAITH.

I'm glad if a Prof. doesn't teach universalism if he believes it's true.

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Hey Nadine, Haven't seen you in awhile..Anyway, you state "many are restored to their original destination without that conversion, no regeneration of their spirit." Exactly who is that many and how are they restored?

The bible seems clear..it states Christ came to reconcile all powers, people, kingdoms, through his work on the cross, each in the
order he chooses, not we choose. That is the glorious news of the gospel, not the water down version of grace you ET's believe in...

SpiritDriven said:

Christs words to the Jews, where to the Jews, and he forbade them to go via the road of the Nations, when speaking thus, and he was speaking of Gehenna the place of Punishment for....mortals....during the millenium reign.

We cannot ignore Gods word where it says that every knee under the Earth on the surface of the Earth and in the Heavenlies will bow, and with their tounges confess Jesus is Lord.

I think the Parable of the sheperd leaving behind the entire flock to seek out the one single lamb that had become lost, gives us insight as to how not one will be lost to God...because the parable continues on until the...Good Sheperd...found the Lamb that was lost, and returned it to the Fold.

The teaching of those who oppose the Good Sheperd seems to be that non believers are not saved....the teaching of those who belong to the Good Sheperd is that one day...all... will be believers.

We have never once strayed from that teaching path.

Grace and Peace to you all.

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POW's are often forced to "bow" or submit....bowing does not equate allegiance regardless of your viewpoint in the matter.

Armistead said:

Hey Nadine, Haven't seen you in awhile..Anyway, you state "many are restored to their original destination without that conversion, no regeneration of their spirit." Exactly who is that many and how are they restored?

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We MUST repent and believe to be saved.
ONLY those who do the will of the Father will enter...those are Christs words Himself....words that some of you seemingly wish to ignore.

The bible seems clear..it states Christ came to reconcile all powers, people, kingdoms, through his work on the cross, each in the
order he chooses, not we choose.

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Sorry, but if we had NO choice then there would be NOTHING needed on our part such as REPENTANCE or DOING the will of the Father without which NO one will enter.

"Not everyone who says to Me, 'Lord, Lord,' will enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father who is in heaven.
Many will say to Me in that day, 'Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in Your name, and in Your name we cast out demons, and in Your name we did many mighty works?' "
And then I will confess to them, 'I never knew you! Depart from Me, you who work iniquity!'
(Mat 7:21-23 EMTV)

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Very clearly there will be those who APPEAR to be followers of Christ who seemingly will have themselves convinced that they are who Christ will reject entirely.
Self delusion.

That is the glorious news of the gospel, not the water down version of grace you ET's believe in...

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No, that is YOUR fallacious interpretation of the Gospel based on PARTIAL evidence and not the WHOLE word of God.

HuntingMan said:

How *I* view *MYSELF* doesnt have a single thing with preaching to keep someone from falling into a lie that makes them feel like they dont have to REPENT of their sins.

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Actually it does.

What you allude to is the belief that you are OK and everyone who does not agree with you on this point is bound for hell.

... and, hell has nothing to do with repentance - you are now writing your own theology probably to in order to conform to your comfort zone.

But I guess you won't see how you conflated two different ideas to secure your beliefs thereby relieving you are any thought of understanding your inward process. God looks at the inside - not the outside.