False Concept of God - A Divine Spectator

Alethes · Sep 19, 2008

Ormly said:
Salvation is not a choice. That is why so many fail in their experience. Salvation is a crying to God from a need for it to which God may or may not grant His gift.

Hi Ormly,

If salvation is not a choice then what else could it be? Also, if not a choice, why do so many people reject Christ as their Lord and Savior?

That salvation is crying to God from a need for it, which God "may or may not?"..grant His gift, is not written in the Word of God. The gift of salvation/eternal life is given to "all" who believe in and confess the Lord Jesus (the Christ).

Romans 10:9 and10:
That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead thou shall be saved.

For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.

If a person by his free will accepts Jesus Christ as his personal Lord and Savior he will be saved. God's gift of salvation is freely given to "all" them who believe in Christ.

Alethes · Sep 19, 2008

sunlover1 said:
Amen Alethes.

Reminds me of this one too!

Sunlover .... such a beautiful song.

And He walks with me,
and He talks with me,
And He tells me I am His own,
And the joy we share as we tarry there,
None other has ever known.
:sohappy:

Love the words!

"I Come to the Garden Alone,"
is one of the songs I usually
sing when taking a shower.
:wet:

Ormly · Sep 19, 2008

Alethes said:
Hi Ormly,

If salvation is not a choice then what else could it be? Also, if not a choice, why do so many people reject Christ as their Lord and Savior?

That salvation is crying to God from a need for it, which God "may or may not?"..grant His gift, is not written in the Word of God. The gift of salvation/eternal life is given to "all" who believe in and confess the Lord Jesus (the Christ).

Romans 10:9 and10:
That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead thou shall be saved.

For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.

If a person by his free will accepts Jesus Christ as his personal Lord and Savior he will be saved. God's gift of salvation is freely given to "all" them who believe in Christ.

God sees the heart and it is the heart that determines what God gives and what He doesn't. His denial of it can often be to protect us; because of our lack of understanding, we ask amiss.

Alethes · Sep 19, 2008

squint said:
It doesn't take long at any christian message board to see that the majority REEK in perpetual condemnations and accusations amongst each other and even moreso to our fellow man.

And IF one tries to see THE DEVIL in the details 'in the midst' of believers ALL HELL breaks loose.

The devils work has always been to blame and accuse ourselves and our fellow man and that working surely transpires PRIMARILY in believers because of 'exposure' to the Word and the 'reflections' that are then brought forth BY GODS WORDS...from 'within.'

Leviathan (the dragon) will be dragged out by God's Words... It's unavoidable. But of course he is a hard and firey fighter to pull out of the sea.

Psalm 74:14
Thou brakest the heads of leviathan in pieces, and gavest him to be meat to the people inhabiting the wilderness.

Psalm 44:19
Though thou hast sore broken us in the place of dragons, and covered us with the shadow of death.

Psalm 74:13
Thou didst divide the sea by thy strength: thou brakest the heads of the dragons in the waters.

Years ago I looked in the mirror and saw my'self' as a wet pile of dust on it's way to the scattering wind. I thank God that the dragon meat in me will find it's final habitation as mire in the streets.

There God has measured unto all of us. Open wide for chunky stew kids.

Hey squint, I see you like to drag your false doctrines and false concept of God, and spread confusion into the different threads. You continue to "falsely accuse and blame" God's people saying we enjoy seeing our so-called fellow-man burning and being tortured in hell fire forever just because we say a person cannot be saved if he does not believe in and confess the Lord Jesus. God say so right in His Word and so you are calling God a liar as well as His Son, Jesus Christ who taught the same.

The people who are already condemned because they believe not, and love the darkness more than the light, bring condemnation and final judgment upon themselves which is everlasting death.

You really have a lot of nerve coming on a Christian forum and saying no one has to accept Christ as their Savior in order to be saved which is a total contradiction of God's Word; namely, Romans 10:9 and 10.

Again, squint, you speak with a double tongue...sometimes with three, and try to cause confusion, which others here have also noticed --- "WHAT ARE YOU TALKING ABOUT???" Where there is confusion there is every evil work.

Those who know the TRUE GOD will recognize the thief who subtly slides into the fold to try to lead God's people away from the simplicity of God's Word. You may trick a few here and there into accepting your false doctrines because they are not fully knowledgeable of the Scriptures. However,the majority of Christians are not in the least fooled by your foreign and strange words that speak loudly of one who does not work for the "true" God.

simonthezealot · Sep 19, 2008

Ormly said:
God sees the heart and it is the heart that determines what God gives and what He doesn't. His denial of it can often be to protect us; because of our lack of understanding, we ask amiss.

Nicodemus is a prime example of this...

Alethes · Sep 19, 2008

Ormly said:
God sees the heart and it is the heart that determines what God gives and what He doesn't. His denial of it can often be to protect us; because of our lack of understanding, we ask amiss.

I know that God sees the heart, but what does that have to do with what I stated in my post?

squint · Sep 19, 2008

Alethes said:
Hey squint, I see you like to drag your false doctrines and false concept of God, and spread confusion into the different threads. You continue to "falsely accuse and blame" God's people saying we enjoy seeing our so-called fellow-man burning and being tortured in hell fire forever just because we say a person cannot be saved if he does not believe in and confess the Lord Jesus. God say so right in His Word and so you are calling God a liar as well as His Son, Jesus Christ who taught the same.

Alethes, I know you don't understand and I know WHY you don't understand. I condemn NOT A SINGLE PERSON OF MANKIND period, believers INCLUDED. Why should I? So when you SPIN you should SPIN at least a token of TRUTH eh?

You read the scriptures and you say I, I, I am COMPLETELY JUSTIFIED...but the OTHERS...oh no. I say GOD SAYS no to them unless they believe 'LIKE ME!.' And I do reject that notion as being largely hypocritical but DO NOT HOLD that against YOU as a believer. I know who that measure comes from and it's NOT YOU as God's child. OK? And even if you're NOT OK with it, it IS the measure that God has given me to use and you will not and cannot change that.

The people who are already condemned because they believe not, and love the darkness more than the light, bring condemnation and final judgment upon themselves which is everlasting death.

You can condemn your fellow man all the day long. I can read the same scriptures that YOU read and IN HIS LOVE come to an ENTIRELY DIFFERENT conclusion:

Luke 6:
37 Judge not, and ye shall not be judged: condemn not, and ye shall not be condemned: forgive, and ye shall be forgiven:
38 Give, and it shall be given unto you; good measure, pressed down, and shaken together, and running over, shall men give into your bosom. For with the same measure that ye mete withal it shall be measured to you again.

You KNOW by now that I condemn NONE of mankind and do CONDEMN ALL of DEVILkind. That is where the AXE falls dear one.

You really have a lot of nerve coming on a Christian forum and saying no one has to accept Christ as their Savior in order to be saved which is a total contradiction of God's Word; namely, Romans 10:9 and 10.

I've never said any different. Those who DO NOT CONFESS Jesus as Lord in this present life REMAIN AS SLAVES to the darkness that has been put UPON US ALL which darkness we are turned from in this present life when Jesus IS our Lord.

The difference between you and I is that I believe Jesus Is The Saviour of ALL MEN and of the WORLD and that SALVATION can be remedied AFTER death as Romans 11:26-32 openly shows.

You however do not believe that LOVE overcomes ALL THINGS. Love has only overcome YOU and those who believe LIKE YOU and you also openly CONDEMN those 'we' have been commanded to LOVE. I just cannot get there anymore, but did ABIDE in that DARKNESS for a considerable time. I am glad not to have to carry that burden any longer. The LIGHT YOKE has provided a release of that in understanding.

Again, squint, you speak with a double tongue...sometimes with three, and try to cause confusion, which others here have also noticed --- "WHAT ARE YOU TALKING ABOUT???" Where there is confusion there is every evil work.

That's part of the 'issues' with all of us Alethes. We ALL are carriers in the flesh of both SIN and EVIL and those WORKINGS do remain under COMPLETE CONDEMNATION by God's Words and there is NO ALTERATION of this fact.

Without a GOAT upon which to lay JUDGMENT in these matters, we all remain awash in false judgements to our fellow man and each other. I make NO MEASURE of condemnation to you or to any other person of mankind, knowing by the scriptures that there are OTHER ENTITIES involved in these matters and therefore LOOK TO THE OBVIOUS to find understanding. If that's not OK with you it doesn't MATTER to me. I'd rather see what cannot be seen. We cannot SEE the 'entities' that work darkness in mankind but scriptures DO shed HIS LIGHT upon THEM and THEY don't like it do they?

And perhaps when you understand this you'll also understand WHY condemnation POURS OUT OF YOU to me when we try to SHARE these matters.

Those who know the TRUE GOD will recognize the thief who subtly slides into the fold to try to lead God's people away from the simplicity of God's Word. You may trick a few here and there into accepting your false doctrines because they are not fully knowledgeable of the Scriptures. However,the majority of Christians are not in the least fooled by your foreign and strange words that speak loudly of one who does not work for the "true" God.

Anyone with half a wit can observe the goings on between believers and they'd be fortunate to find any TWO in complete agreement. That is just a laughable statement on your part. Argumentum numerum without the numerum. Argumentum populous without the populous.

I KNOW what you will eventually say to me before it comes from your lips. The hatred and condemnation and accusations pour forth...to their ultimate conclusion.

I make no such measure to YOU as a child of God.

enjoy!

squint

ticker · Sep 19, 2008

Alethes said:
Hey squint, I see you like to drag your false doctrines and false concept of God, and spread confusion into the different threads.

Stepping in again...

Hi there, Alethes.

I don't think squint likes to do drag false doctrines as you're suggesting, or tries to do this...and he defenitely doesn't think he's doing this. I think his dialogue is often all at once elaborate, poetic, and inspired...and I think his (always well-meaning) message might get lost with some in his zeal.

I've seen him admit already that...

squint said:
Yes, I will fully admit to attacking the premise/idea of individual obedience being extracted by freewill/free agency choice and the total fallacy that employs and did so on a MULTIPLE scale of measures that probably came fast and furious.

...so I think he's aware of how his zealousness about this stuff leads him to post in the manner that he does.

I think he gets the gist of the OP quite well (...although maybe not the gist of what was being talked about in the thread since then), but by considering his perspective and hearing him out I came to understand why he thought what he thought about the thread dialogue coming in. So I don't think your words about him are really acurate.

Gotta say though...I see a lot of people here making a whole lot of assumptions about others...and then going as far as to call them out on these assumptions. This isn't what Christians do, folks...so I'd urge people to take a step back for a minute and maybe reconsider how to approch the discussion on this topic.

sunlover1 · Sep 19, 2008

ticker said:
Gotta say though...I see a lot of people here making a whole lot of assumptions about others...and then going as far as to call them out on these assumptions. This isn't what Christians do, folks...

Well, it's not what Christians 'should' do (pun)
But unfortunately sometimes we dont do what we should.
(Or often as in my case)

so I'd urge people to take a step back for a minute and maybe reconsider how to approch the discussion on this topic

simonthezealot · Sep 19, 2008

sunlover1 said:
Well, it's not what Christians 'should' do (pun)

sounds familiar...

<that considered stepping away?

JacktheCatholic · Sep 19, 2008

simonthezealot said:
Nicodemus is a prime example of this...

Some consider that dude a prophet. But I do not.

simonthezealot · Sep 19, 2008

JacktheCatholic said:
Some consider that dude a prophet. But I do not.

the story of nico was one to show Christs omniscience.

Meshavrischika · Sep 19, 2008

In all probability he is identical with the Nicodemus mentioned in the Talmud: Nicodemus ben Gorion, noted for his miraculous powers; and this would explain also the reference to "heavenly things" in Jesus' talks with him

JacktheCatholic · Sep 19, 2008

simonthezealot said:
the story of nico was one to show Christs omniscience.

I was just playin...

Alethes · Sep 20, 2008

squint said:
Alethes, I know you don't understand and I know WHY you don't understand

You know nothing of what I understand because it is based on the truth of God's Word. What is understood is that you speak against God and the truth of His Word -- that you twist and pervert Scripture to try to make it say what is a lie.

I condemn NOT A SINGLE PERSON OF MANKIND period, believers INCLUDED.

Odd that you should say "including" believers. No man has the right to condemn another person ESPECIALLY Christians who are will never come into condemnation.

Why should I?

Yes, squint, why should you condemn anyone since you believe mankind is not to blamed and is not responsible for living in sin, which, of course, is a bunch of malarkey.

So when you SPIN you should SPIN at least a token of TRUTH eh?

Yes ... YOU should SPIN "at least a token of the truth, which is something I have yet to see from you, MR. SPINMAN. eh?

You read the scriptures and you say I, I, I am COMPLETELY JUSTIFIED

You got that one right!

Yes I do read the Scriptures which say "I," "I," "I" AM COMPLETELY JUSTIFIED because I accepted Christ who justified me. :amen:

(an amen for every "I.").

...but the OTHERS...oh no. I say GOD SAYS no to them unless they believe 'LIKE ME!

You got another right!

Yes ... I say exactly what God says in His Word (which is what you should do but don't) and God says all who do not believe LIKE ME and like ALL true Christians who believe in Christ and have accepted Christ as their Savior from sin, will unfortunately not be justified and saved, which is by their free will decision!

Remember John 3, squint?

John 3:16-20:
16. For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
17. For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.
18. He that BELIEVETH ON HIM [CHRIST] is not condemned: BUT he that BELIEVETH NOT is already, CONDEMNED BECAUSE HE HATH NOT BELIEVED IN THE NAME OF THE THE ONLY BEDGOTTEN SON OF GOD.
19. And THIS IS THE CONDDEMNATION, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil.
20. For every one that doeth evil hateth the light, neither cometh to the light, lest his deeds should be reproved [by conviction to bring to light, to expose].

This is what GOD SAYS in His Word and it is the truth which YOU deny.

And I do reject that notion as being largely hypocritical but DO NOT HOLD that against YOU as a believer.

You are free to reject the truth of God's Word as being largely hypocritical all you want, which is what natural man does anyway (I Corinthians 2:14). Oh, and the "do not hold it against me 'as a believer' "... LOL. It does not at all matter to me what you hold or do not hold against me "as a believer." Why do you emphasize "believers" when it's the unbelievers who are condemned? You've got it all backwards as usual. "Christians" are made the righteousness of God in Christ and are not nor ever will be condemned. They are not the bad guys.. It's the "unbelievers"... the ones who deny the truth of God's Word and refuse to accept Christ as their Savior from sin that are condemned just as Christ taught many times in the Gospels. :doh:

I know who that measure comes from and it's NOT YOU as God's child. OK? And even if you're NOT OK with it, it IS the measure that God has given me to use and you will not and cannot change that. You can condemn your fellow man all the day long.

More false accusations, eh squint. I personally condemn no man as it should be. .Re-read John 3:16-20.

I can read the same scriptures that YOU read and IN HIS LOVE come to an ENTIRELY DIFFERENT conclusion:

You come up with an entirely different and "wrong" conclusion

Luke 6:37Judge not, and ye shall not be judged: condemn not, and ye shall not be condemned: forgive, and ye shall be forgiven.

Luke is addressing the Jews and tells them not to judge and condemn each other. "Condemn" here is not referring to being condemned/destroyed as in the final judgment, No one can condemn another person to his final destruction. The unbelievers bring their destruction upon themselves by rejecting God and His Son, Jesus Christ.

For with the same measure that ye mete withal it shall be measured to you again.

What you give out is what you get back. This measure hasn't a thing to do with the condemnation Jesus spoke about in John 3:16-20 and in other places in the Gospels. We may read the same scriptures, but you read your false doctrine into them and wrongly divide the Word of Truth. See John 3:16-18 above.

You KNOW by now that I condemn NONE of mankind and do CONDEMN ALL of DEVILkind. That is where the AXE falls dear one.

The axe may fall on the devil as the tempter of evil, but the responsibility and blame falls on the unbelievers who are condemned because they reject God and His Son, Jesus Christ as the Savior from sin, dear one.

I've never said any different. Those who DO NOT CONFESS Jesus as Lord in this present life REMAIN AS SLAVES to the darkness that has been put UPON US ALL which darkness we are turned from in this present life when Jesus IS our Lord.

BALONEY. You said and continue to say the complete opposite to what the God says via His Word. Those who do not confess Christ as their Lord and Savior from sin in their lifetime, are condemned and will be destroyed....Period. That is what God declares in His Word.

The difference between you and I is that I believe Jesus Is The Saviour of ALL MEN and of the WORLD and that SALVATION can be remedied AFTER death as Romans 11:26-32 openly shows.

Well what "you" believe is totally incorrect because salvatin is ONLY for those who BELIEVE IN CHRIST and there is absolutely nothing you can say or do to change that truth.

Romans 11:23:
And they also, IF they abide NOT STILL IN UNBELIEF shall be graffed in: for God is able to graff them in again.

Verse 26:
And so all Israel [IF they abide NOT STILL IN UNBELIEF] shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:

The "Deliverer," Jesus Christ, shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob for ALL WHO BELIEVE and are saved.

You however do not believe that LOVE overcomes ALL THINGS.

I believe what the Word of God teaches and not what you believe.
I John 5:4 -- For whosoever is born of God overcometh the world: and this is the victory that overcometh the world, [even] FAITH [BELIEVING].

I John 5:5 -- Who is he that overcometh the world, BUT he THAT BELIEVETH THAT HE IS THE SON OF GOD.

The rest of what you say is also the wrongly divided Word of Truth. Sorry, squint, you keep making it clear that you have no knowledge or understanding of the truth of God's Word. Scripture proves over and over again that you teach a a false doctrine and there is absolutely nothing you can do to change the truth.
Your whole post is :unbelievable:

Alethes · Sep 20, 2008

ticker said:
Stepping in again...

Hi there, Alethes.

I don't think squint likes to do drag false doctrines as you're suggesting, or tries to do this...and he defenitely doesn't think he's doing this. I think his dialogue is often all at once elaborate, poetic, and inspired...and I think his (always well-meaning) message might get lost with some in his zeal.

I've seen him admit already that...

...so I think he's aware of how his zealousness about this stuff leads him to post in the manner that he does.

I think he gets the gist of the OP quite well (...although maybe not the gist of what was being talked about in the thread since then), but by considering his perspective and hearing him out I came to understand why he thought what he thought about the thread dialogue coming in. So I don't think your words about him are really acurate.

Gotta say though...I see a lot of people here making a whole lot of assumptions about others...and then going as far as to call them out on these assumptions. This isn't what Christians do, folks...so I'd urge people to take a step back for a minute and maybe reconsider how to approch the discussion on this topic.

You are entitled to give your perspective on this, and I am also entitled to give mine. I make no assumptions as you say, and I know exactly who and what I am dealing with concerning squint. Perhaps you should read every post squint has entered on the subject matter before saying I am making a whole lot of assumptions.

You stated that squint makes some very interesting points. I say he teaches a false doctrine and I have supported this fact with Scripture over and over again.

To be totally honest, I have to wonder why there are some Christians here who do not see what is spiritually occurring here in this forum due to squint and his false doctrines, which defy the very truth of God's Word. In stead of defending the truth, they jump on the ones who are taking a stand for the true God.

People's opinions have no effect on what I believe God is working in me to say and do.

Ormly · Sep 20, 2008

Alethes said:
You are entitled to give your perspective on this, and I am also entitled to give mine. I make no assumptions as you say, and I know exactly who and what I am dealing with concerning squint. Perhaps you should read every post squint has entered on the subject matter before saying I am making a whole lot of assumptions.

You stated that squint makes some very interesting points. I say he teaches a false doctrine and I have supported this fact with Scripture over and over again.

To be totally honest, I have to wonder why there are some Christians here who do not see what is spiritually occurring here in this forum due to squint and his false doctrines, which defy the very truth of God's Word. In stead of defending the truth, they jump on the ones who are taking a stand for the true God.

People's opinions have no effect on what I believe God is working in me to say and do.

JacktheCatholic · Sep 20, 2008

beamishboy said:
What are you talking about?????

LOL!!!

I was half thinking the same thing.

Sorry Squint.

Alethes · Sep 20, 2008

sunlover1 said:
Well, it's not what Christians 'should' do (pun)
But unfortunately sometimes we dont do what we should.
(Or often as in my case)

... I second that motion!

JacktheCatholic · Sep 20, 2008

So what is this thread about? Dragon Stew?

Here we go:

ticker said:
There appears to be this false notion among a lot of my brothers and sisters regarding God's role in the Christian life...as if at the time we became Christians He just kinda went, "Here ya go....I've made you a Christian now....go at it!"

Is God now merely a divine spectator...(albeit one who might from time to time dip His fingers in to intervene in people's lives), where He's just basically sitting back and watching us "go"?

Is it now up to us (as someone here was recently asking about) to do stuff like figure out what our calling is, or figure out some right theology to live by, or figure out if we're doing enough for Him?

Unfortunately, not understanding your full identity in Christ can lead to such misconceptions about the Christian life and about God's role in it...where instead of understanding God (and His grace) as being something that is actually propelling you constantly forward in the direction He's wanting to take you in life, there is this skewed idea that we gotta somehow "take the reigns" and "make it all happen" which blinds people from how He's actually operating in this world.

God is not a divine spectator...He's actually as close to us as He could possible be. We're one with Him now through the work of the cross, so we can trust in Him to be the motivator and enabler for where He's wanting to take us in life. I would say that the better we listen, the easier the ride could be...but the whole notion that God is somehow far off, watching and hoping that we won't screw the whole thing up is just plain faulty, spiritually unhealthy, and most importantly, unbiblical. This is His world to do with as He pleases, and you happen to be a part of it. So you can rejoice in the good news that He's got a plan for you He's carrying out, or...you could "try" to stop Him.

Peace

We have free will.

As Christians we are born again into the body of Christ.

The Holy Spirit works through us.

I think life is a journey to our ultimate end, and so we are given free will to choose and if we choose to have God's help then He gives it to us.

False Concept of God - A Divine Spectator

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Praise be to Jesus Christ. Now and forever.

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