Will Sinners Burn Forever?

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adam332

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Truth seeker,
you said;
Zechariah 14:16-17 does not apply to hell because this ceremonial law (ordinance) of the feast of the tabernacle was nailed to the cross at Jesus' death. --1 Colossians 2:14

Don't mean to nit pick on your thread because I agree with most of your doctrines I've seen, although......this particular commentary of yours is not close to correct.
 
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Sharky

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Originally posted by adam332
Sharky,
Jesus did not go down to hell(place of tormented sinners). He went into the grave. And there is nowhere in the scripture that indicates such.

Really i'm pointing out the bottom line here. Jesus loves us just that much you know that He died for you.
 
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thetruthseeker

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Originally posted by adam332
Cir,
there is not a single verse in the Bible that indicates the ultimate fate of the sinner is "separation from God".

Sharky,
Jesus did not go down to hell(place of tormented sinners). He went into the grave. And there is nowhere in the scripture that indicates such.

Hi Adam332,

I did not catch Sharky's statement about Jesus sending our sins to hell. This, as you stated, is incorrect.

Thanks, Adam332.

Your brother in Christ,
TheTruthSeeker
 
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thetruthseeker

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Originally posted by adam332
Truth seeker,
you said;
Zechariah 14:16-17 does not apply to hell because this ceremonial law (ordinance) of the feast of the tabernacle was nailed to the cross at Jesus' death. --1 Colossians 2:14

Don't mean to nit pick on your thread because I agree with most of your doctrines I've seen, although......this particular commentary of yours is not close to correct.

Hi Adam332,

Please explain in detail what you believe this verse means.

Thanks for your reply.

Your brother in Christ,
TheTruthSeeker
 
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adam332

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TS,
first you must pay attention to the context of Col. 2 to determine what ordinances are being spoken of. One thing I'm sure you must be missing is that it speaks of the ordinances as past tense, when it says they were "nailed" to the cross. But, it speaks of the eat and drink and the Sabbaths and new moons, as being "are a shadow of things to come".

Did you catch that?!! This passage is not speaking of the ceremonial laws that were a shadow of things that had already came, but instead is speaking of a future fulfillment of Sabbaths, new moons etc.... that "are to come".

Sound familiar?

Isa. 66:23 And it shall come to pass, that from one new moon to another, and from one sabbath to another, shall all flesh come to worship before me, saith the LORD.

Another hint as to what ordinances are being referred to is, that they are mentioned in relationship to men judging men about there sabbaths and new moons.

We saw examples of this throughout Christ ministry, didn't we? Wasn't Christ continually being judged guilty of Sabbath breaking by the Pharisees?

Well what ordinances were they judging Him with? The man-made additions they had made to the Sabbath!!!! Not the law of God!

With these things in mind let's look at what the subject matter of Col. 2 is.

4 And this I say, lest any man should beguile you with enticing words.

8 Beware lest any man spoil you through philosophy and vain deceit, after the tradition of men, after the rudiments of the world, and not after Christ.

14 Blotting out the handwriting of ordinances that was against us, which was contrary to us, and took it out of the way, nailing it to his cross;
15 And having spoiled principalities and powers, he made a shew of them openly, triumphing over them in it
.

18 Let no man beguile you of your reward in a voluntary humility and worshipping of angels, intruding into those things which he hath not seen, vainly puffed up by his fleshly mind

21 (Touch not; taste not; handle not;
22 Which all are to perish with the using;) after the commandments and doctrines of men
?

The subject matter of that chapter is the false teachings of men and for us to beware of them. He came as a Jew and openly disobeyed there man-made laws, "And having spoiled principalities and powers, he made a shew of them openly".

So, since Christ has come and openly challenged these items and could not be found guilty of them, no matter how hard they tried to trap Him, therefore don't let any man judge us concerning the man-made laws of the Sabbath, etc...., either.
 
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adam332

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CIR,

you said;

"There is and I gave it to you.
You want a few others?
"


No, there's not. No, you didn't. No, you can't give me any others?

Secondly for there to be "others", implies there was at least one, which there hasn't.

What you gave me is a verse referring to the second coming. Let's take a look, this time in context, shall we?

2Thes. 1:7 And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels,

8 In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:

9 Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power;

10 When he shall come to be glorified in his saints, and to be admired in all them that believe (because our testimony among you was believed) in that day.

So, why is it that you are maintaining that this speaks of the ultimate fate of the wicked when the Bible clearly teaches that such a moment actually occurs over a thousand years following His second coming?

Did you not know the the ultimate fate of the wicked is after the millennium, at the Bema Seat, in the second death?

The fate of the wicked at the second coming, (which is what you referenced), is "destruction" as the scripture you quoted says. Therefore, it could be called the "first death", hence the obvious nature of why their second "destruction"( athousand years later) is called the "second death". 

You obviously are having some problems distinguishing between the English words eternal, everlasting, forever, etc... And the original intent of the Greek and Hebrew words that they came from.The original words did not apply such rigidity to their definitions as you are doing. They could mean literally an eternity, or they could mean a simple duration of time. It was all determined in the context.

I find it quite curious that you would be so rigid with your one-way definition of these words, especially in light of the fact that the English language allows for the same EXACT FLEXIBILITY!

If I said; "God will reign forever.", you could understand that, right?

If I said; "That movie lasted forever.", you could understand that also, right?

So, since the Hebrew and Greek lexicons clearly define these words as having figurative applications as well as literal, and the same goes for their English counterparts, where are you getting your 100% literal ideas from? The scripture doesn't teach these words were used 100% literal, matter of fact I can show you over fifty examples of when they were clearly figurative.Here are a few prime examples.

Jude 1:7 Even as Sodom and Gomorrha, and the cities about them in like manner, giving themselves over to fornication, and going after strange flesh, are set forth for an example, suffering the vengeance of ETERNAL fire.

Is Sodom and Gomorrha still burning today?
Of course not.
_____


1Sam. 1:22 But Hannah went not up; for she said unto her husband, [I will not go up] until the child be weaned, and [then] I will bring him, that he may appear before the LORD, and there abide FOR EVER.

Is Samuel still abiding at the temple?
No, matter of fact Hannah clarifies what she meant by this a few verses later.


1Sam. 1:28 Therefore also I have lent him to the LORD; AS LONG AS HE LIVETH he shall be lent to the LORD. And he worshipped the LORD there.She was simply using this term figuratively, as you and I do today.
_____


Jon. 2:6 I went down to the bottoms of the mountains; the earth with her bars [was] about me FOR EVER: yet hast thou brought up my life from corruption, O LORD my God.

Was Jonah really in the belly of the great fish forever?
Again, we see figurative usage.


Jon. 1:17 Now the LORD had prepared a great fish to swallow up Jonah. And Jonah was in the belly of the fish three days and three nights.

Mat. 12:40 For as Jonas was three days and three nights in the whale’s belly; so shall the Son of man be three days and three nights in the heart of the earth.

______

Then of course, we have the larger context to apply. That is, everything the Bible teaches on the subject as a whole. This is where you should have got your first clue.

You see, both "eternal separatism" and "eternal tormentism" is faced with the problem that they teach a concept that is in glaring opposition to one of the most basic Biblical of principals! That is, blood must be shed to atone for sin(Lev. 17:11, Heb. 9:22)!!

The glory in this being; as part of the children of God we can accept Christ' blood on our behalf! Amen!!

Thus allowing our penalty to be payed in full.

Ahhh... but what if you deny Christ and don't accept His sacrifice? Well, the wages of sin is death! And blood MUST BE paid for their sin. Which leaves them with the sad burden of paying with their own blood and death.

Christ died for our sins!

He is not eternally separated from God, nor is He eternally tormented. Therefore, if you believe one of those is the penalty, and you believe that Christ paid your penalty, then you must believe those things are happening to Christ for a literal eternity.

If you don't accept that, then you have the HUGE problem of your own doctrine conflicting with itself. Did He pay the penalty or didn't He?

There are many more levels which such doctrines are completely opposite of scriptural teaching and logic, but I think you get the picture.

Keep studying, you'll get there.....
 
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adam332

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TS, did you see my comments on Col. 2?

I hope I put it well enough to understand.
I was kinda' rushed when I wrote it.

I have started a thorough written study on this chapter, but got sidetracked on writing another one and another one. And it's in a file waiting for me to get back to it. Mentally it's complete, just got to find the time to get it down on paper in an effective format. Also, and by no coincidence, is the case for Zec. 14.

I can show you scripture and explain to you how that chapter(Zec. 14) does not conflict with the rest of your doctrines, and still be speaking of the second coming and the events that lead up to it. It alludes to our presence in the millennium, but is more focused during the wrath of God and the coming of Christ.

But first let me know if I can better explain Col. 2.

Also these might help, other verses where Paul is referring to the Jews who were against Christ, or their teachings, as being "contrary" to them.

Col. 2:14 Blotting out the handwriting of ordinances that was against us, which was contrary to us, and took it out of the way, nailing it to his cross;

1Thes. 2:15 Who both killed the Lord Jesus, and their own prophets, and have persecuted us; and they please not God, and are contrary to all men:

Rom. 16:17 Now I beseech you, brethren, mark them which cause divisions and offences contrary to the doctrine which ye have learned; and avoid them.

Acts 23:3 Then said Paul unto him, God shall smite thee, thou whited wall: for sittest thou to judge me after the law, and commandest me to be smitten contrary to the law?

It was the actions and laws of man that Paul was telling us was contrary to us not the ceremonial laws of Moses. These were shadows and were fulfilled, but they were not at all contrary. They are still applicable but not in a physical earthly nature, but instead in the heavenly sanctuary with Christ acting as the spiritual High priest on our behalf.

BTW: The Greek word for "ordinances" no.1 definition in the Lexicon is "doctrines".

Remember, Paul says that when Christ disarmed("spoiled" see Strongs) the principalities and powers when He took away their ordinances that were AGAINST them ......

2Cor. 10:5 Casting down imaginations, and every high thing that exalteth itself against the knowledge of God, and bringing into captivity every thought to the obedience of Christ;

Eph. 6:12 For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places.

Also remember Paul was once a high power and a Pharisee who also spoke and falsely accused the brethren based on man's laws and not God's.....

Acts 26:9 I verily thought with myself, that I ought to do many things contrary to the name of Jesus of Nazareth. 10 Which thing I also did in Jerusalem: and many of the saints did I shut up in prison, having received authority from the chief priests; and when they were put to death, I gave my voice against them.
 
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cir

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So, since the Hebrew and Greek lexicons clearly define these words as having figurative applications as well as literal, and the same goes for their English counterparts, where are you getting your 100% literal ideas from? The scripture doesn't teach these words were used 100% literal, matter of fact I can show you over fifty examples of when they were clearly figurative.Here are a few prime examples.

I never claimed that they should be used literally 100% of the time. :rolleyes:

I can give you plenty of times where "forever" does not mean forever...

That ride took forever.

That movie lasted forever.

He talked forever.

Yet,

God will reign forever.

We can not just say that, "Oooh, forever doesn't always mean forever therefore God won't really reign forever." It makes no difference whether you can come up with 10, 50, or 50,000 examples of forever being figurative, it does not take away from the fact that forever can mean forever literally. Your verses mean nothing. :)

You see, both "eternal separatism" and "eternal tormentism" is faced with the problem that they teach a concept that is in glaring opposition to one of the most basic Biblical of principals! That is, blood must be shed to atone for sin(Lev. 17:11, Heb. 9:22)!!

And your point? If hell were meant to atone for sin, hell would be temporary. You can not atone for your own sin.

The glory in this being; as part of the children of God we can accept Christ' blood on our behalf! Amen!!

Thus allowing our penalty to be payed in full.

Amen.

And blood MUST BE paid for their sin. Which leaves them with the sad burden of paying with their own blood and death.

Chapter:verse?

He is not eternally separated from God, nor is He eternally tormented.

I don't believe in eternal torment for the wicked, but I do believe in eternal separation.

Jesus was separated from God on the cross...

And about the ninth hour Jesus cried out with a loud voice, saying, "Eli, Eli, lama sabachthani?" that is, "My God, My God, why have You forsaken Me?" -Matthew 27:46

However, as you point out, it wasn't eternally.

This is where the paid for sins scenario comes in.

No man can pay for his own sins. Agreed?

Only Jesus can pay for sins. Agreed?

Since Jesus was perfect and could pay for our sins, His separation was not permament.

Since man is not perfect(not to mention the fact that hell is not for redemption), his separation was permament.

BTW, arrogance will get you nowhere. ;)
 
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adam332

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CIR,

that's hilarious! you managed to ignore the whole point of our little debate didn't you?

How terribly convenient.....

You have been maintaining that your little verse was speaking of the ultimate fate of the sinner. I showed proof positive that your reference was over a 1000 yrs before the ultimate fate of the sinner occurs.

You totally tiptoed around the main subject and nitpicked on the little tangents some of which were never claimed by me. Such as, I never said that Christ wasn't separated from God. And I never said that you claimed they should be used literally 100% of the time.

You are treating such passages as though they can only be literal usage. And there is no scriptural contextual basis to apply them only as literal. Matter of fact, in light of what the Bible tells us it becomes contextually impossible for them to be literal!

And, you can pay for your own sin, that is what the lake of fire is for!!! For those who don't let Christ pay their penalty.

Also, you asked for chapter and verse about; blood and death must be paid for sin.

Heb. 9:22 And almost all things are by the law purged with blood; and without shedding of blood is no remission.

Lev. 17:11 For the life of the flesh is in the blood: and I have given it to you upon the altar to make an atonement for your souls: for it is the blood that maketh an atonement for the soul.

Jam. 1:15 Then when lust hath conceived, it bringeth forth sin: and SIN, WHEN IT IS FINISHED, BRINGETH FORTH DEATH.

Eze. 18:4 Behold, all souls are mine; as the soul of the father, so also the soul of the son is mine: the SOUL that sinneth, it SHALL DIE.

Eze. 18:20 The SOUL that sinneth, it SHALL DIE. The son shall not bear the iniquity of the father, neither shall the father bear the iniquity of the son: the righteousness of the righteous shall be upon him, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon him.

Mat. 10:28 And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to DESTROY BOTH SOUL AND BODY in hell.

Job 36:12 But if they obey not, they SHALL PERISH by the sword, and they SHALL DIE WITHOUT KNOWLEDGE.

Rom. 6:23 For THE WAGES OF SIN [IS] DEATH; but the gift of God [is] eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.

Pro. 19:16 He that keepeth the commandment keepeth his own soul; [but] he that despiseth his ways SHALL DIE.

John 8:24 I said therefore unto you, that ye SHALL DIE in your sins: for if ye believe not that I am [he], ye SHALL DIE in your sins.

Rom. 8:13 For if ye live after the flesh, ye SHALL DIE: but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live.

If the ultimate fate of sinners is eternal separation from God, and the believers debt are payed by Christ, this means Christ is eternally separated from God. You can't have it both ways. If he is not eternally separated from God, then He didn't pay the penalty you claim the sinner pays without Him.

He can't be separated from God for a day or two and have paid the proper penalty. Because according to you the penalty is eternal separation. He came as a physical man, with physical temptations, physical torment, and physical death. He died for our sins!!! He was not separated from God for an eternity for your sins. Your theory would require a rewrite of the scripture.

And now, will you please respond to my inquiry. "Show me a single verse that indicates the ultimate fate of the sinner is separation from God".

You make the claim, but have not produced anything to back it up. I'm waiting.
 
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cir

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I never said that Christ wasn't separated from God.

Did I say that you claimed otherwise?

You are treating such passages as though they can only be literal usage.

What passages?

And, you can pay for your own sin

So, your position is that hell is temporary?

that is what the lake of fire is for!!!

Chapter:verse?

Also, you asked for chapter and verse about; blood and death must be paid for sin.

No, I asked for chapter and verse for this...

And blood MUST BE paid for their sin. Which leaves them with the sad burden of paying with their own blood and death.

If the ultimate fate of sinners is eternal separation from God, and the believers debt are payed by Christ, this means Christ is eternally separated from God.

See previous post.

You can't have it both ways.

No, you cannot.

Now show me where I am trying to have it both ways.

He can't be separated from God for a day or two and have paid the proper penalty.

He did.

Because according to you the penalty is eternal separation.

According to me?

I said that separation is the penalty, I never specified time. :)

He came as a physical man, with physical temptations, physical torment, and physical death. He died for our sins!!!

I hope you're not trying to tell me something new... ;)

He was not separated from God for an eternity for your sins.

I did not claim He was.

Your theory would require a rewrite of the scripture.

The fact I write about, or the strawman you write about?

And now, will you please respond to my inquiry. "Show me a single verse that indicates the ultimate fate of the sinner is separation from God".

You make the claim, but have not produced anything to back it up. I'm waiting.

And what good would it do?

You don't understand the basics, let alone separation. Let's clear up all these misguided prejudices first, okay?
 
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thetruthseeker

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Originally posted by Julie
"Will Sinners Burn Forever?"
Lost sinners will in the Lake of Fire.
Saved sinners won't burn.

Hi Julie,

This is not Biblical.

Hell does not yet exist. However, even Satan himself will be destroyed in Hell.

Isaiah 14:12-17 _How art thou fallen from heaven, O Lucifer, son of the morning! how art thou cut down to the ground, which didst weaken the nations! For thou hast said in thine heart, I will ascend into heaven, I will exalt my throne above the stars of God: I will sit also upon the mount of the congregation, in the sides of the north: I will ascend above the heights of the clouds; I will be like the most High. Yet thou shalt be brought down to hell, to the sides of the pit. They that see thee shall narrowly look upon thee, and consider thee, saying, Is this the man that made the earth to tremble, that did shake kingdoms; That made the world as a wilderness, and destroyed the cities thereof; that opened not the house of his prisoners?

Lucifer (now Satan) is symbolized by the king of Tyrus in Ezekiel.

Ezekiel 28:13-19 _Thou hast been in Eden the garden of God; every precious stone was thy covering, the sardius, topaz, and the diamond, the beryl, the onyx, and the jasper, the sapphire, the emerald, and the carbuncle, and gold: the workmanship of thy tabrets and of thy pipes was prepared in thee in the day that thou wast created. Thou art the anointed cherub that covereth; and I have set thee so: thou wast upon the holy mountain of God; thou hast walked up and down in the midst of the stones of fire. Thou wast perfect in thy ways from the day that thou wast created, till iniquity was found in thee. By the multitude of thy merchandise they have filled the midst of thee with violence, and thou hast sinned: therefore I will cast thee as profane out of the mountain of God: and I will destroy thee, O covering cherub, from the midst of the stones of fire. Thine heart was lifted up because of thy beauty, thou hast corrupted thy wisdom by reason of thy brightness: I will cast thee to the ground, I will lay thee before kings, that they may behold thee. Thou hast defiled thy sanctuaries by the multitude of thine iniquities, by the iniquity of thy traffick; therefore will I bring forth a fire from the midst of thee, it shall devour thee, and I will bring thee to ashes upon the earth in the sight of all them that behold thee. All they that know thee among the people shall be astonished at thee: thou shalt be a terror, and never shalt thou be any more.

Your brother in Christ,
TheTruthSeeker
 
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adam332

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CIR,

this little game of "dodge the issue", is becoming quite old very fast. But, I will go one more round in hopes that you will actually show ANYTHING AT ALL.

BTW; whatever happened to your big claim about your verse? You were talking so authoratively about it, then I showed you to be utterly and completely out of context. Out of context isn't even the words for it, you weren't even in the right millennium!

Now you have the audacity to say...

"You don't understand the basics, let alone separation."

What a joke, and ya' called me arrogant....you don't even realize what millennium your talking about and then tries to tell me that I don't know the basics.... Ha Ha Ha Ha

You said;

"Did I say that you claimed otherwise?"

No ya' didn't and I never said ya' did. The point was; you went off on this tangent about Jesus being separated to which I had never even mentioned. And then tried to equate His temporary separation with your belief in eternal separation.

You said;

"What passages?"

One such as you used before ya' got schooled.

You said;

"So, your position is that hell is temporary?"

Yes, as it is the Bibles position!

You said;

"Chapter:verse?"

Mat. 18:34 And his lord was wroth, and delivered him to the tormentors, till he should pay all that was due unto him.

Heb. 9:22 And almost all things are by the law purged with blood; without shedding of blood is no remission.

Lev. 17:11 For the life of the flesh is in the blood: and I have given it to you upon the altar to make an atonement for your souls: for it is the blood that maketh an atonement for the soul.

Jam. 1:15 Then when lust hath conceived, it bringeth forth sin: and SIN, WHEN IT IS FINISHED, BRINGETH FORTH DEATH.

Eze. 18:4 Behold, all souls are mine; as the soul of the father, so also the soul of the son is mine: the SOUL that sinneth, it SHALL DIE.

Eze. 18:20 The SOUL that sinneth, it SHALL DIE. The son shall not bear the iniquity of the father, neither shall the father bear the iniquity of the son: the righteousness of the righteous shall be upon him, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon him.

Mat. 10:28 And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to DESTROY BOTH SOUL AND BODY in hell.

Job 36:12 But if they obey not, they SHALL PERISH by the sword, and they SHALL DIE WITHOUT KNOWLEDGE.

Rom. 6:23 For THE WAGES OF SIN [IS] DEATH; but the gift of God [is] eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.

Pro. 19:16 He that keepeth the commandment keepeth his own soul; [but] he that despiseth his ways SHALL DIE.

John 8:24 I said therefore unto you, that ye SHALL DIE in your sins: for if ye believe not that I am [he], ye SHALL DIE in your sins.

Rom. 8:13 For if ye live after the flesh, ye SHALL DIE: but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live.

1Cor. 15:3 For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received, how that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures;

Rev. 20:15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.

Rev. 21:8 But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second DEATH.

You said;

"No, I asked for chapter and verse for this..."

Hello!!!!! Anyone home? They say the same thing!

You said;

"See previous post."

Your previous post showed absolutely nothing to back your assertions. All you did was use your own twisted logic to support a belief that is not backed with the scripture. The payment for sin is blood and death, period. Either you believe Christ PAID THAT EXACT PENALTY, or your wrong.

You said;

"Now show me where I am trying to have it both ways."

You say that the penalty Christ paid on our behalf was temporary separation, but the sinners who aren't paid by Christ, you say will receive eternal separation. If Christ paid the penalty and the penalty is eternal separation then you must believe that He is eternally separated from God. But, since you can't claim such, because you know it is unBiblical to say that Christ is eternally separated from God, you use your own logic which you cannot support. This way with your own private interpretation, you can have your cake and eat it too.

You said;

"He did."

No He didn't! There is not a single verse in the Bible that remotely hints that Christ was "separated from God for our sins“. He died for our sins, period!

You said;

"I said that separation is the penalty, I never specified time."

That is a lie! Might want to edit your other postings before you try to lie again.

"I don't believe in eternal torment for the wicked, but I do believe in eternal separation." ~ CIR #49 posted 4th December 2002 at 04:37 PM

You said;

"I hope you're not trying to tell me something new..."

The Bible appears to be completely new to you, so how could I know?

You said;

"I did not claim He was."

Yes you did, through implication with your personal opinion that the ultimate penalty for sinners is eternal separation.

You said;

"The fact I write about, or the strawman you write about?"

What a crock! Is it fact that....

"the wages of sin is" eternal separation from God?

or

"the soul that sinneth shall surely" be eternally separated from God?

or

"fear not him who is able to destroy the body, but fear Him who is able to" eternally separate you from God?

etc............

Like I said your little theory would require a rewrite of the Bible. If my men are straw, at least they can be supported with scripture.....Ha Ha Ha ha

Lessons over, schools out.

And now, will you please respond to my inquiry. "Show me a single verse that indicates the ultimate fate of the sinner is separation from God".
 
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cir

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Busy now, but will get as much out of the way as possible. :)

this little game of "dodge the issue", is becoming quite old very fast. But, I will go one more round in hopes that you will actually show ANYTHING AT ALL.

BTW; whatever happened to your big claim about your verse? You were talking so authoratively[sic] about it, then I showed you to be utterly and completely out of context. Out of context isn't even the words for it, you weren't even in the right millennium!

This goes into more depth than I could: www25.brinkster.com/cirmb/display_topic_threads.asp?ForumID=19&TopicID=119&PagePosition=1

The payment for sin is blood and death, period.

And I contested this where?

Remission of sins, and payment of sins are two different things. :)

Either you believe Christ PAID THAT EXACT PENALTY, or your[sic] wrong.

He paid it.

You say that the penalty Christ paid on our behalf was temporary separation, but the sinners who aren't paid by Christ, you say will receive eternal separation. If Christ paid the penalty and the penalty is eternal separation then you must believe that He is eternally separated from God. But, since you can't claim such, because you know it is unBiblical to say that Christ is eternally separated from God, you use your own logic which you cannot support. This way with your own private interpretation, you can have your cake and eat it too.

The punishment is separation from God. IF that is payed off(which can only happen through Christ) it is temporary, if it cannot be paid off, the sin remains and so does the punishment. :)

That is a lie! Might want to edit your other postings before you try to lie again.

I was speaking in general. :rolleyes:

In general, the punishment for sin is separation.

In specific, the wicked cannot pay for their sins. Thus, the punishment remains.

In specific, Jesus can pay for our sins(He was perfect), thus the punishment does not remain.

What a crock! Is it fact that....

"the wages of sin is" eternal separation from God?

or

"the soul that sinneth shall surely" be eternally separated from God?

or

"fear not him who is able to destroy the body, but fear Him who is able to" eternally separate you from God?

etc............

Check the link out at the top...

And now, will you please respond to my inquiry. "Show me a single verse that indicates the ultimate fate of the sinner is separation from God".

...for this, too. ;)

Oh, and for hell being temporary, check out this excellent quote about the Greek.

The Greek word for "torment" in this verse is basanizo. Joseph Thayer's lexicon says the word means "to vex with grievous pains...to torment." Likewise, Arndt and Gingrich's lexicon say the word means "to torture, torment."
.....
...the same word for torment is used to speak of the pains of childbirth in Rev12:2. It is also used of the centurion's sick servant being grieveously tormented by palsy in Matt8:6. It is used in Luke 16:23 and 28 to describe the physical suffering of the rich man in Hades.
....
Now the "torment" in Revelation 14 is described as a 'never-ending' torment:

"And the smoke of their torment rises for ever and ever.... There is no rest day or night" (verse11).

The words "for ever and ever" translate an emphatic Greek phrase, 'eis aionas aionon' ("unto the ages of ages"). The twofold use of the term aionas is used in Scripture to emphasize the concept of eternity. And the plural forms ("unto the ages of ages") reinforces the idea of never-ending duration. Lutheran scholar R.C.H. Lenski comments,

The strongest expression for our "forever" is 'eis tous aionan ton aionon', "for the eons of eons"; many eons, each of vast duration , are multiplied by many more, which we imitate by "forever and ever." Human language is able to use only temporal terms to express what is altogether beyond time and timeless. The Greek takes its greatest term for time, the 'eon', pluralizes this, and then multiplies it by its own plural, even using articles which make these eons the definite ones.

[R.C.H Lenski, Revelation (Minneapolis: Augsburb, 1961), p.438.]

This same emphatic contruction is used to speak of the never-ending worshiop of God in Revelation 1:6, 4:9, and 5:3. It is also used to describe the eternality of God in Revelation 4:10 and 10:6. We cannot emphasize too strongly that this phrase shows beyond doubt that the physical torment of the wicked is forever and ever and ever.

[Ron Rhodes, Reasoning from the scriptures with the Jehovah's Witnesses, pp.336-337]
 
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brotherjim

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Whomever,

I didn't read any of the posts here, so if I'm repeating anyone kindly forgive me and consider it an added witness.

We know there are a thousand years between the end of this age and the end of the next, so, unless and except for any "in prison" that may be preached to, like Jesus first did 2,000 years ago, those left on the wrong side of "the great gulf fixed between" will likely suffer this length of time plus whatever length they died before the New Millenia.

After the Millenia, when the lost are judged as such, their "SOUL" is "destroyed" when they are ordered by Jesus to be tossed into the lake of fire, and are, but "their worm dieth not."

But I do not claim all of this a prophetic word.

bro. jim
 
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adam332

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BrotherJim
Christ did not preach to those referenced in prison 2000 yrs. ago, neither will he at a future time.

CIR,
as I said, you cannot Biblically confirm your comments. Biblical context and precedent will always prevail over your man-made presented comments.

You still have not shown a single verse that indicates the ultimate fate of the sinner as being eternal separation. I'm still waiting, and I believe that is the fourth time I've asked to which you have not been able to produce ONE!
 
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