Christian Jews

Shimon,

It's okay, we do not have to agree. What we are doing now is entering into the realm of 'fruitless' discussion with an audience of ?????. Hope I did not offend you. Sometimes we all get a little stirred.

Shalom

Higher Truth:

It isn't important how many participate. The message we are teaching will not be taught in churches because it does not sell. It will not fill up the church building, it will empty it out. It will not fill up the collection plate, it will run empty. It's not a popular message, and as Yeshua told us Himself, the gate is very narrow and only a few will find it:

Matthew 7:14: Because strait [is] the gate, and narrow [is] the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it.

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If one is among the majority, they can be certain they are in the wrong group.

Shimon

Well said, Shimon.

One thing I want to interject here. First off, this is a discussion board, not a bully-pulpit or lectern. Nothing turns a discussion off faster, than members who do not come here to discuss anything, but to lecture and 'teach'. This shows the utmost in arrogance, close-mindedness, and lends itself to bitter retorts and hurt feelings.

To those who are here to do nothing more than 'teach' or preach, and feel that only they have all the right answers, and a need to 'save' the rest of us, go to another website that tolerates this. This site will not.

Any further arrogant 'teachings', will result in immediate suspension from this site.

Read my signature, and again, until it sinks in.

TheBear:

What is the purpose of this board? What is the point of biblical discussions here?

It seems that this site is so focused on preventing anyone from taking the slightest offense from anything, that I don't see how any fruitful discussion can take place. It negates the whole purpose of discussion in the first place.

I can certainly understand the need to prevent personal attacks, insults, and similar behavior, but nothing like that has occurred here. There have been no personal attacks, no insults, no character assassination -- nothing like that at all. All anyone has done is challenge some doctrinal beliefs.

Shimon

Shimon,

My statement was not directed to anyone individual, yet you felt the need to respond. Any further public disagreement with staff will result in your immediate suspension.

John

shimon: tell me, if Paul did not mean works but meant instead ritual observance why pray tell did he not say RITUAL OBSERVANCE?? I think Paul said what he meant and meant what he said. Works. Specifically that nothing we DO will earn us salvation. Good works are the fruits of not cause of salvation.

Pax et bonum.

Br. Max.
There are two common themes in the letters of Paul which repeat over and over again. One is that the Jews had perverted the faih, (Judaism ) by making it a system of legalistic observances for the purpose of self justification, which it was never meant to be. Torah was never a salvation document. It is instruction in holy living. If you live in accordance with Torah you will be living a life acceptable to God. The other thing that Paul repeats is the Shema (Shi - mah) Shema Israel Adonai Elohyanu, Adonai Echad. Hear O'Israel, the Lord our God, the Lord is one. And Paul says since there is only one God there is therefore only one people of God, whether Jew or Gentile in not important. How one lives IS important, because how you live is the fruit of what is in your heart. And a life that is filled with the spirit of Yeshua (the living Torah) will live a life that is totally in sync with the righteous requirement of Torah.

Ro 2: [14] For when the Gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves: [15] Which show the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and their thoughts

(Here Paul is refering to Torah kept correctly, and not legalist observation)

Farther into the letter he says,

Ro 8: [6] For to be carnally minded is death; but to be spiritually minded is life and peace. [7] Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be. [8] So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God. [9] But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.

You see the carnal man can not please God and in fact is enmity against God " for it is not subject to the law of God," It can be stated also that the spiritual man DOES please GOD and is not enmity against God because his mind IS in suject to the law.

The spirit writes the Torah of God upon you heart when you are born again. That is the entire NEw Covenant in a nut shell (Jer 31:31) and when this happens you also are become part of Israel and Judah, for it is only with Israel and Judah that this covenant is promised. Now seeing that you are filled with the Spirit of Yeshua and are become a grafted in member of Israel, begin living according to the calling on all those who are Israel. Live according to Gods instructions and become a blessing to the nations of the earth.

Charles YTK

charles: 1, you cannot quote from one badly abused epistle and feel you have summed up the whole body of St Pauls writings.

Rom 14(Indeed, when Gentiles, who do not have the law, do by nature things required by the law, they are a law for themselves, even though they do not have the law, 15since they show that the requirements of the law are written on their hearts, their consciences also bearing witness, and their thoughts now accusing, now even defending them.) AMP

The LAW refered to here is the specific law of the Decalogue which is manifest in our Consceince. To put it simple, even the most backward heathen knows in his heart that murder is wrong.

Romans 8
5Those who live according to the sinful nature have their minds set on what that nature desires; but those who live in accordance with the Spirit have their minds set on what the Spirit desires 6Now the mind of the flesh [which is sense and reason without the Holy Spirit] is death [death that comprises all the miseries arising from sin, both here and hereafter]. But the mind of the [Holy] Spirit is life and [soul] peace [both now and forever]; 7the sinful mind is hostile to God. It does not submit to God's law, nor can it do so. 8Those controlled by the sinful nature cannot please God.

This is talking about those who are slaves to the flesh, carnality. People who are ruled by what the FEEL and DESIRE. It's not an exhortation to practice Pharisetical Judaism.



charles: the difference between you and I is that you feel the Lord is weak and failed us by allowing the "true" faith to be lost and perverted. Me, I think God is Strong and Sovereign. The True faith is still running strong every where the sacraments are celebrated.

Was God being weak when mankind fell into such a state that He purged the Earth by flood. And doen't he tell us through the apostles that in the last days the church will be fallen into terrible apostasy and be fallen away from sound doctrine, following instead the doctrine taught by demons. Yet this is not because God is weak, but because sin is still in the hearts of men including most of those who should be living by the spirit. And the warnings were exactly correct. The church is apostate; open your eyes and you can see this. Not just in doctrines, but also in the lives of its adherants who for the most part live in no way different from those who are completely separated from God. In fact there are lots of decent and moral people in the world who do better things than the believers and are not saved. This is a fact to our shame.

Charles YTK

Frankly, I would rather celebrate what's in the bible rather than the adopted pagan rituals that have been Christianized in association with Jesus.

If you are going to associate anything with religion having to do with God or Jesus..why not celebrate at least something that originally was of God? *edited this portion of the post since it attacks Christianity. I do not see the point.

I am not saying don't celebrate Christianized holidays..but I am saying why associate them with Jesus because they don't really have anything to do with Jesus?

Where in the bible does it say decorate a tree, give presents on Dec 25th, cook and eat a giant meal, and act all nice to people on just that day ? I mean let's be frank..Christmas is so commericalized it has absolutely nothing to do with Jesus Birth (which isn't on Dec 25th to begin with but that's another story) * edited this portion of the post since it attacks Christianity.

Frankly, I say if it doesn't condemn you though..go ahead with it..but associating it with Jesus doesn't seem like a valid reason to do it. Now if one wants to choose that day and say hey, I want to remember Jesus' birth today..Well cool. But all the pagan ritual stuff isn't needed to do that. You can remember his birth everyday if you want.

Lets see – what’s in the bible?

Birth of Jesus - Vulgar name: Christmas /Liturgical name – Nativity of the Lord

Resurrection of Jesus Vulgar name AMONGST ENGLISH SPEAKING PEOPLES ONLY – Easter/Liturgical name: Pascha

Lord's supper - PROPERLY named Eucharist (you don't have to be RC to call it by its proper name)

Crucifixion of Jesus
The Ascension of the Lord
The Annunciation of the Lord
The Martyrdom of St Stephen
Martyrdom of St Paul
Pentecost
Baptism of the Lord
Presentation of the Lord . . .

sheesh what more do you want?

Missy,

all Dec 25th is about is buying, eating, getting, and giving. It has nothing to do with Jesus..never has and never will.

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Maybe for some, but certainly not for all.  Generalizations like this simply get people upset and cause devisiveness.

 

why not celebrate at least something that originally was of God?

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The birth of Christ in the manger isn't of God? It seems to me I remember reading the story in of the Gospels. Huh.  Is there a specific day in which we should celebrate, and how would that look to you?

 

I am not saying don't celebrate Christianized holidays..but I am saying why associate them with Jesus because they don't really have anything to do with Jesus

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I am really trying to understand this logic. It's okay to celebrate "Christianized" holidays. Ok ~ I've got that.  But celebrating Christmas on Dec. 25th isn't okay because it has nothing to do with Jesus?  I really don't get that. I thought it was all about Jesus except for the unbelievers.

Have you ever had a birthday party, or would that be considered pagan too?

Blindfaith..no offense but you missed the whole point of my post. I am telling what I do and don't do and what I don't see the logic behind doing. If you attatching Jesus' birth with Christmas makes you feel better..fine, I am not asking you to change..and frankly it's none of my business or concern.

I don't place things with God and Jesus that I don't feel have anything to do with him and Christmas is one of those things FOR ME. That's basically all I was saying in a nut shell. And it was JUST my personal opinion.

The original thread had a topic..I posted what I thought..plain and simple. It's up to one to take it or leave it.

Blessings,
Missy

Christmas is about Christ. if you have allowed commercialism to replace Christ in Christmas how is that the fault of the church or of the feast? What you are talking about is displacement. You have displaced the actions of the secular world on and connected with a day to be the function of the day. Christmas is not about gifts - its about THE GIFT. The gift God the father gave us in His son.

Br.Max as I said..this is what "I" believe. I am not trying to convince you to believe anything other than what you believe. I am simply giving my PERSONAL opinion. It can be taken or left by readers.

And who in the WORLD said anything was wrong with remembering Jesus birth on Dec 25th???? My qualm is with pagan objects such as the tree, mistletoe, etc and the thought that those things have something to do with Jesus birth. And also with commercialism of Christmas as a whole in the secular world.

Wherever you are getting this stuff that I didn't say in any of my posts seem to be a figment of someone's imagaination..and it ain't mine.

If Dec 25th is about Jesus birth for you. Wonderful, great..good for you. I have absolutely no qualms with that. All I have an issue with is the pagan objects people claim has to do with Christianity. Frankly, I think it's insulting to Christianity. Because Christians celebrate things in decent and in order and wouldn't place something with God that doesn't belong.

I hope this is registering to you..

Blessings,
Missy

Missy? Trees are pagan? we better cut them all down. But wait what do trees have to do with Jesus? Could it be that one was cut down and made into a cross which he died upon for the salvation of us all??


I'd appreciate if you would stop with the condescending attitude miss. I will not make a complaint THIS time.

Br. Max, As I said before it is my opinion. One can take it or leave it. If you don't like it..simply leave it.

Last I checked..the cross that Jesus died on wasn't decorated with balls, tinsel and ornaments.

If you feel the need to report me to staff..feel free. Won't bother me one way or the other. I won't loose sleep over it.

Blessings,
Missy

Missy

[mod hat on]

If the tone of this thread doesn't change, it will be either closed or trashed.

If members want to irritate one another, do it through the pm system so it doesn't take up valuable space on these pages.

Thank you.

[mod hat off]

Josephus said:

Something I'd like to encouage those who do not celebrate the 7 Feasts of the year:

Each of the feasts is a direct symbol of the fulfillment of Jesus Christ. For example, Passover is the Crucifixion. The Feast of Weeks is Pentecost. Jesus was probably born on the Feast of Tabernacles (God "living" with man) in a festival "booth" in the only open space available at the time: a manger area. Yom Kippor (Day of Atonement) is yet to be fulfilled at the Last Day. the Feast of Trumpets ...is of course THE RAPTURE! Jesus is the substance that fulfills the symbol of the Feasts. Do a study sometime. Once you know what the Feasts are, and what they correlate to, celebrating them "In Rememberence of Me" takes on a whole new, deeper and enriching meaning!

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Shalom
The Feast Days are still for today. We must remember something. The Feasts are G-D's Feast days, not man's, not the Jews or the Church's.

There are errors in both Judaism and Christianity. Here are some websites that shed light on the topic. Search the Scriptures and study for yourselves.
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Major Errors of Historical Christianity and Judaism
http://www.messianic.com/articles/errors.htm

Great Site: Outlined form that explains all of the Moedim of Elohim, (Festivals of G-d)
http://www.messianic.com/articles/moedim.htm
How many times have you heard someone say that Y'shua's, (Jesus') birthday is December 25. Well, if you visited the site above called Major Errors of Historical Christianity and Judaism,
http://www.messianic.com/articles/errors.htm
,then you will know how the mix-up came about. I hear many say that we just don't know when Messiah's birthday is. Well, that's not true either.
Please visit this site for more revelation.
Biblical Dates for Messiah's Conception and Birthday
http://www.messianic.com/articles/dates.htm
The Body of Messiah has misunderstood and errantly translated the teachings of Paul. Here is a concise article on the hard teachings of Paul

The Problem with Paul; Clarifying the seemingly Anti-Torah Passages of Paul
http://www.messianic.com/articles/paul.htm
Who Is Israel? How do the Gentiles fit into Israel as the "Engrafted in" (G-d has not forsaken Israel.) If you believe He has, then you believe that He has forsaken you). Again, Who is Israel? Has the Church replaced Israel or have you been joined to her like Ruth was joined to Naomi, like the many who joined the Hebrews during the Exodus. Who Is Israel? See for yourselvs. You may be surprised.
http://www.messianic.com/articles/gentiles.htm
G-d bless you, my brothers and sisters in Messiah! To our Glorious King, we say come quickly, Adonai Y'shua.

He says, I will come in all My glory, to gather My elect, so occupy until I come. Watch ye therefore, and pray always, that ye may be accounted worthy to escape all these things that shall come to pass, and to stand before the Son of man.-Luke 21:36

Remember the parable about the 10 bridesmaids. Five were wise and five were foolish. All of them had lamps, but the five wise ones carried extra oil. The five foolish ones did not. They tried to take some oil from the wise ones, but the wise ones refused them. They told them to go buy their own. When the Bridegroom returned and called the bridesmaids in for the Wedding Feast, the wise ones entered in, but the foolish ones could not because they had to go and buy some more oil and missed the coming of the Bridegroom. The foolish bridesmaids tried to enter in after the door was shut, but the Bridegroom told them that they could not enter in. They were not prepared for His coming. It was too late. (Matthew 25:1-13)

This parables informs us that we all must each prepare ourselves now, before Messiah comes. We are to help one another, love another, but when it comes to being prepared, it is up to each of us as individuals to be prepared for the Glorious Coming of our L-rd and Savior. The Feast Days draw us closer to G-d. They are not meant to be legalistic and burdensome. Remember, G-d's commandments are not grievious.

For this is the love of God, that we keep his commandments: and his commandments are not grievous. (1 John 5:3)

Shalom my brothers and sisters in Messiah. Love you all in His Love. Remember, His Word is True. It is impossible for Him to lie or err. He changeth not. Be encouraged in your hearts and love one another from a fervent heart, for this is the will of G-d.

To the Only Wise G-d be all glory, honor, dominion and power, both now and forever, through our Adonai, Y'shua Messiah, (L-rd Jesus Christ)