Why are ALL muslims oppressed

You ignore over a thousand years of Muslim history in your statement. Yes when Europe was deep in Dark Ages, it was the Muslims were pushing science forward. It was Muslims who were pushing the bounds on every social, economic and scientific front while your ancestors wallowed in disease ridden cities. Yes, the last two centuries have proven to be hard on the Muslims, but so what? We did get a thousand years of supremacy, wasn't the length of the promised kingdom of God on Earth anyway? The funny thing is, the Prophet Muhammad had told his followers that a day will come, in the distant future, when the Muslims will be rendered weak and the last amongst the nations of the world. His companions asked if this was due to them being few in number, he answered that NO, they are actually very numerous, but they had split their once united community into factions and different countries, and lo and behold, what do we see today...

Here's some more education for ya on the glorious past of Islam:
http://www.1001inventions.com
http://www.muslimheritage.com/

Hi Momentum.

Allow me to give a few comments to your post which I guess was a little rash from you..?

mo.mentum said:

You ignore over a thousand years of Muslim history in your statement. Yes when Europe was deep in Dark Ages, it was the Muslims were pushing science forward. It was Muslims who were pushing the bounds on every social, economic and scientific front while your ancestors wallowed in disease ridden cities.

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What kind of arrogant speech is this? The Muslim world was entirely built on the technology and industry of the Christian Greeco-Roman world, the Zoroastrian and Hinduist South-Asian world, and the Chinese civilization. The Muslim attackers who swept out of Arabia came to a feast of riches and technology which they voraciously devoured. Even throughout the centuries of Muslim civilization, Christians and Jews were the foremost scientists, financiers and innovators. Eventually the Muslims themselves also gave some contributions, but compared to what the non-Muslim civilzations had done (and were doing), these were tiny.

To describe Europe of the Dark ages as "disease ridden cities" is highly arrogant and ignorant of you. It's true that large parts of Western Europe got destabilized and poor due to the Germanic onslaughts (400-600s), but the Eastern Empire was still way more prosperous than most parts of the Islamic world. Historians also claim that Western Europe was already at equal footing with the Muslim world ca 1000 AD in military and political strength (although the Muslim world still was more technologically advanced at this stage). At around 1500 the West had long surpassed the Muslim world, and it has kept its position so far.

Yes, the last two centuries have proven to be hard on the Muslims, but so what? We did get a thousand years of supremacy, wasn't the length of the promised kingdom of God on Earth anyway?

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Wrong. The Muslim world was only really strong between 600 and 1000, after that it was on parity with Europe, and after 1500, far weaker. It's true that the Muslims for a thousand years terrorized Europe, but that can hardly be regarded as "supremacy". Supremacy is more than military barbarism. In that regard, we should add that much of modern European expansionism have also been military barbarism.

The funny thing is, the Prophet Muhammad had told his followers that a day will come, in the distant future, when the Muslims will be rendered weak and the last amongst the nations of the world. His companions asked if this was due to them being few in number, he answered that NO, they are actually very numerous, but they had split their once united community into factions and different countries, and lo and behold, what do we see today.

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Well, the Muslims were not very numerous ca 100 years ago. But due to Western nations giving the Muslims technology, medicines and independent states, Muslims have grown considerably the last decades. But this is hardly of the Muslims' own doing, rather by Western charity and good will. That some Westerners have now grown a little worried and angry of how Muslims "repay" the philantophy which has been shown them, is another issue.


Best,
Disippelen

mo.mentum said:

You ignore over a thousand years of Muslim history in your statement. Yes when Europe was deep in Dark Ages, it was the Muslims were pushing science forward. It was Muslims who were pushing the bounds on every social, economic and scientific front while your ancestors wallowed in disease ridden cities. Yes, the last two centuries have proven to be hard on the Muslims, but so what? We did get a thousand years of supremacy, wasn't the length of the promised kingdom of God on Earth anyway? The funny thing is, the Prophet Muhammad had told his followers that a day will come, in the distant future, when the Muslims will be rendered weak and the last amongst the nations of the world. His companions asked if this was due to them being few in number, he answered that NO, they are actually very numerous, but they had split their once united community into factions and different countries, and lo and behold, what do we see today...

Here's some more education for ya on the glorious past of Islam:
http://www.1001inventions.com
http://www.muslimheritage.com/

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Dude. I hate getting involved in these cross-Abrahamic debates, but let's get real here. Israel has like over 30 companies that trade on both the NYSE and the NASDAQ. Saudi Arabia, the country that flew aircraft into towers in New York City, has ZERO!
That's right. Zilch. Nada. Nyet.
And Israel has a population of less than 6 million people!

Saudi Arabia just sunk like over $15 billion into a university (called KAUST). Do you want to know how many peer-reviewed journals Saudi scientists have so far published? A paltry 33!
33 stinkin' peer-reviewed scientific journals from a $15B university. There were more scholarly journals published on the after-effects of 11 Sep 2001 than what was generated out of that university over the university's entire existence!!!
If that doesn't utterly define the word 'pathetic', I don't know what does!

Luzeiro said:

Inventions = means muslims invented it (that means from scratch). Read the first sentence of the quoted text.

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No invention is ever made from scratch. Every invention, and every scientific advance, is based on the knowledge base that existed previously.

Your trick is an old one. You cannot deny the objective fact that Islamic civilization made several contributions to humanity, so you invent arbitrary and totally ludicrous standards to evaluate the worth of the contribution to be able to draw your desired conclusion. Standards that, if consistently applied, would discount every single invention by every culture.

Opressed?
When any of you all- Muslims, Christians and Jews have free time to stop the starvation among the starving nations in africa and around the world,
you may have the time to talk about the Couch Potato Opressions!
Instead of feeding each other rocks, start making an institution of Muslims, Jews and Christians to stop poverty and starvation around the world.
How could you live in the past or thinking of the future while you can't live the present peacefully?
You missed the past lessons, you aren't able to live your present and you with happiness thinking of your future that its foundations are not made yet.
Whether you like it or not, you will live together with smiles or with frowns.
This is the fact that you have to face and accept.
_________________
GANGSTA'S PARADISE

Spoken)
You want to tell me what this is all about?

As I walk through the valley of the shadow of death
I take a look at my life and realize there's nothing left
Cause I've been practising in laughin so long that
Even my ma'ma thinks that my mind is gone
But I will never never crossed a man that didn't deserve it
Me, be treated like a punk, you know that's unheard of
You better watch how you talkin, and where you walkin
Or you and your homies might be lined in chalk
I really hate to trip, but I gotta loc'-
As they croak I see myself in the pistol smoke, fool
I'm the kinda G the little homies wanna be like
On my knees in the night
Sayin prayers in the street light


We've been spending most our lives living in a Gangsta's Paradise

Look at the situation, they got me facing
I can't live a normal life, I was raised by the street
So I gotta be down with the hood team
Too much television watchin' got me chasin' dreams
I'm an educated fool with money on my mind
Got my tan in my hand and a gleam in my eye
I'm a loc'ed out gangsta, set-trippin banger
And my homies is down, so don't arouse my anger, fool
Death ain't nuthin but a heart beat away
I'm livin life do-or-die-a, what can I say?
I'm twenty-three now, but will I live to see twenty-fow'?
The way things is goin' I don't know

Tell me why are we, so blind to see
That the ones we hurt, are you and me

Power in the money, money in the power
Minute after minute, hour after hour
Everybody's runnin, but half of them ain't lookin
What's goin on in the kitchen, but I dont know what's cookin
They say I got ta learn, but nobody's here to teach me,
If they cant understand it, how can they reach me?
I guess they can't; I guess they won't
I guess they front; that's why I know my life is outta luck, fool!

That's a good post dnihila.

All of us should start devoting more time to help the starving peolpes of Africa and other places of the world. We don't need to make an institution of different religions, but it's great if people of different faith can cooperate in alleviating the food shortages of the suffering people, particularly in sub-Saharan Africa.

You're also correct in saying that people of all religions will have to accept living together in our societies. The hope is that respect and tolerance will prevail in all places, not the least in your own Saudi Arabia which is maybe the most intolerant nation in the world.


Best,
Disippelen

Futuwwa said:

No invention is ever made from scratch. Every invention, and every scientific advance, is based on the knowledge base that existed previously.

Your trick is an old one. You cannot deny the objective fact that Islamic civilization made several contributions to humanity, so you invent arbitrary and totally ludicrous standards to evaluate the worth of the contribution to be able to draw your desired conclusion. Standards that, if consistently applied, would discount every single invention by every culture.

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I suppose the point would be how these inventions are classified. If I freely move somewhere with my ideas, then it is more fitting to be classified as belonging to that nation or having an identity with the place and people where I moved to. But, if I capture people who already have the ideas and then try to take credit for them, that is not the same and is probably what is being discussed here. Einstein's contributions are a good example. Although he was of German origin, he moved from Germany mainly because of political conditions surrounding him. It was his choice to become American, which is different than Muslims conquering lands and then taking credit for whatever success as if it were the Islamic empire--made up of prosperous Muslims--that was responsible.

Don't get the impression that Muslims did nothing, but I feel that they piggybacked on a lot of ideas that were already known that perhaps would have been advanced on their own had they not conquered other lands. My belief is that those people, if not conquered, would have most likely done much better in their works. I just want Muslims to factor that in and not be too quick to make the quotes of Islamic prosperity without acknowlegding that many of those people were not freely moving individuals to Islamic lands or wanted to be bound under Islamic control on their own volition as Einstein was to America. In other words, let's put things in their proper perspectives. I want to give credit where due but not have an overexaggerated Islamic POV clouding the picture.

peaceful soul said:

Don't get the impression that Muslims did nothing, but I feel that they piggybacked on a lot of ideas that were already known that perhaps would have been advanced on their own had they not conquered other lands. My belief is that those people, if not conquered, would have most likely done much better in their works. I just want Muslims to factor that in and not be too quick to make the quotes of Islamic prosperity without acknowlegding that many of those people were not freely moving individuals to Islamic lands or wanted to be bound under Islamic control on their own volition as Einstein was to America. In other words, let's put things in their proper perspectives. I want to give credit where due but not have an overexaggerated Islamic POV clouding the picture.

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Speculation. Show me the facts, not speculation. Anyone can speculate; the space of "what-if" scenarios is a big one, with an infinite number of possibilities.

Can you name a single historical case of a scientifically progressive civilization experiencing a drop in productivity immediately or shortly after Islamic takeover?

Disippelen said:

To describe Europe of the Dark ages as "disease ridden cities" is highly arrogant and ignorant of you. It's true that large parts of Western Europe got destabilized and poor due to the Germanic onslaughts (400-600s), but the Eastern Empire was still way more prosperous than most parts of the Islamic world. Historians also claim that Western Europe was already at equal footing with the Muslim world ca 1000 AD in military and political strength (although the Muslim world still was more technologically advanced at this stage). At around 1500 the West had long surpassed the Muslim world, and it has kept its position so far.

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Lol, que? At 1500, Christendom dreaded for its life before the Ottoman Empire, the most powerful and advanced state in the world at the time. In the field of knowledge, all the great European Renaissance scientists up to Newton in the 17th century studied science by reading books written in the Islamic world.

Disippelen said:

That's a good post dnihila.

All of us should start devoting more time to help the starving peolpes of Africa and other places of the world. We don't need to make an institution of different religions, but it's great if people of different faith can cooperate in alleviating the food shortages of the suffering people, particularly in sub-Saharan Africa.

You're also correct in saying that people of all religions will have to accept living together in our societies. The hope is that respect and tolerance will prevail in all places, not the least in your own Saudi Arabia which is maybe the most intolerant nation in the world.


Best,
Disippelen

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People don't know that the Almighty is so angry with their mischief on Earth, The only way to stop His anger is charity. And if you look at the most opressed people around the world, you will find that they are the starving ones in Africa and other places on Earth. When you feed them and find a shelter for them away from the burning Heat they live in. At that time May Peace and Blessing come down from the Almighty to the people around the world. Their case is the worst humanistic stiuation because they are facing death of being hungry and sick.

Sacred Hadiths By the Almighty:
1.On the authority of Abu Dharr al-Ghifari (may Allah be pleased with him) from the Prophet (PBUH) is that among the sayings he relates from his Lord (may He be glorified) is that He said:

"O My servants, I have forbidden oppression for Myself and have made it forbidden amongst you, so do not oppress one another. O My servants, all of you are astray except for those I have guided, so seek guidance of Me and I shall guide you, O My servants, all of you are hungry except for those I have fed, so seek food of Me and I shall feed you. O My servants, all of you are naked except for those I have clothed, so seek clothing of Me and I shall clothe you. O My servants, you sin by night and by day, and I forgive all sins, so seek forgiveness of Me and I shall forgive you. O My servants, you will not attain harming Me so as to harm Me, and will not attain benefitting Me so as to benefit Me. O My servants, were the first of you and the last of you, the human of you and the jinn of you to be as pious as the most pious heart of any one man of you, that would not increase My kingdom in anything. O My servants, were the first of you and the last of you, the human of you and the jinn of you to be as wicked as the most wicked heart of any one man of you, that would not decrease My kingdom in anything. O My servants, were the first of you and the last of you, the human of you and the jinn of you to rise up in one place and make a request of Me, and were I to give everyone what he requested, that would not decrease what I have, any more that a needle decreases the sea if put into it. O My servants, it is but your deeds that I reckon up for you and then recompense you for, so let him finds good praise Allah and let him who finds other that blame no one but himself."

2.On the authority of Abu Hurayrah (may Allah be pleased with him), who said that the Messenger of Allah (PBUH) said: Allah (mighty and sublime be He) will say on the Day of Resurrection:

"O son of Adam, I fell ill and you visited Me not. He will say: O Lord, and how should I visit You when You are the Lord of the worlds? He will say: Did you not know that My servant So-and-so had fallen ill and you visited him not? Did you not know that had you visited him you would have found Me with him? O son of Adam, I asked you for food and you fed Me not. He will say: O Lord, and how should I feed You when You are the Lord of the worlds? He will say: Did you not know that My servant So-and-so asked you for food and you fed him not? Did you not know that had you fed him you would surely have found that (the reward for doing so) with Me? O son of Adam, I asked you to give Me to drink and you gave Me not to drink. He will say: O Lord, how should I give You to drink whin You are the Lord of the worlds? He will say: My servant So-and-so asked you to give him to drink and you gave him not to drink. Had you given him to drink you would have surely found that with Me."

3.On the authority of Abu Hurayrah (may Allah be pleased with him), who said that the Messenger of Allah (PBUH) said: Allah will say on the Day of Resurrection:

"Where are those who love one another through My glory? Today I shall give them shade in My shade, it being a day when there is no shade but My shade."

4.On the authority of Abu Hurayrah (may Allah be pleased with him), who said that the Messenger of Allah (PBUH) said: Allah (mighty and sublime be He) said:

"Whosoever shows enmity to someone devoted to Me, I shall be at war with him. My servant draws not near to Me with anything more loved by Me than the religious duties I have enjoined upon him, and My servant continues to draw near to Me with supererogatory works so that I shall love him. When I love him I am his hearing with which he hears, his seeing with which he sees, his hand with which he strikes and his foot with which he walks. Were he to ask [something] of Me, I would surely give it to him, and were he to ask Me for refuge, I would surely grant him it. I do not hesitate about anything as much as I hesitate about [seizing] the soul of My faithful servant: he hates death and I hate hurting him."


Have you all seen how Great and Merciful the Creator is. How He talks to us with gentle words, to us His sevants!!!! And our only duty is to hurt each other and disobey Him.
Look at how Great He is and How miserable we are.
Look at how Merciful He is and How cunning we are.
People plot and plan how to hurt each other and they might not have sleep at night out of getting ready to make someone's life a disaster.
We set night and day writing article that every letter of it shed blood of Peace and we stupidely are pretending that we are calling for Peace.
Peace is to put down your weapon. Peace is to help each other with love. Peace is to say the truth. Peace is to allow justice to take place.
And Justice is not a man made tool, it is the Holy Justice that is written in the Holy Books sent by the Creator to his prophets.
You, whom you are attacking humans, where is Peace in your claim of Peace making?
You, whom you are devoted to defend your belief, where is Peace in your
defence?
You all, when are you going to stop arguing and start working to make Peace?
It is true that the institution should not be of three religions but of all humans, but you are the followers of the Holy Books and you are supposed to be the role models for the world.
The only thing you did is to let people down because you were going up the stairs and pushing through people and throwing people down to make the way clear for you?
Have you ever took someone's hand?
Did you help anyone? Forgetting about his past, his color, his religion, his social rank?
How come you are showing a very poor example of the Holy Books by accusing each other instead of helping each other?
You are the only ones to blame.

Hi again you seem to be a reasonable peace-seeking person.

I'm happy to see that you want to help the people of this earth who suffer. Your nation, Saudi Arabia, is wealthy, and could do very much to help alleviate food shortages among the poor nations of Africa. My own nation, Norway, is also a big oil-country, and we do already quite a lot to aid the poor of the world. It would be great if we could both encourage our fellow citizens and politicians to give more to the poor and needy of our world.


May God bless you with the truth about Jesus Christ

Disippelen

originally posted by Futuwwa

Speculation. Show me the facts, not speculation. Anyone can speculate; the space of "what-if" scenarios is a big one, with an infinite number of possibilities.

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I don't think you are focusing on what I am saying. I am not speculating. I am challenging the ideal that Islam brought about advances purely on the fact that Muslims did it. Given the fact that Islam thrived from expansion into other lands, the people holding the technology before conquest have just as much if not more to do with many of the claims made by Muslims. If Muslims had the technology before they occupied or it can be shown that they had the technology apart from those they conquered, then they get the credit outright. I just want to see credit given where due and not exaggerated representation of what Islam did.

Can you name a single historical case of a scientifically progressive civilization experiencing a drop in productivity immediately or shortly after Islamic takeover?

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Where did I make such as claim? I don't recall mentioning that. I am talking about Muslims too eager to take credit for things that didn't necessarily originate from them. That is it. If Muslims invented things, then I want to give credit, but if they piggybacked off of others while claiming it as if they alone are responsible for it, then I will not totally credit them. It is that simple.

Disippelen said:

Hi again you seem to be a reasonable peace-seeking person.

I'm happy to see that you want to help the people of this earth who suffer. Your nation, Saudi Arabia, is wealthy, and could do very much to help alleviate food shortages among the poor nations of Africa. My own nation, Norway, is also a big oil-country, and we do already quite a lot to aid the poor of the world. It would be great if we could both encourage our fellow citizens and politicians to give more to the poor and needy of our world.


May God bless you with the truth about Jesus Christ

Disippelen

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And May Allah/God/YHWH bless your heart with His Mercy and Love.
If I take your hand to help you that doesn't mean that I should hold your hand gently because of my terror to lose you I might hold it tight to not let you be lost.
Someone might say it is unfair but what's fair is to let you hold someone else hand to help him/her. It is true that the Kingdom of Saudi Arabia is a wealthy country but we do have poor people but not starving and facing death out of starvation.
Every country has its poor society and the average is different from one to another. But if every country not only Saudi Arabia or Norway take a step forward to stop the starvation. They will feel the love of each other because they share something humanistic.
I wish that I can start to do this step but I really don't know where to start and how. The other thing I want to do is that I want to gaurantee that the help will reach those needy people which means that not anyone can do it, only the honest ones can.
If I talk about starvation or needy people that doesn't mean that I am wealthy. Prophets were not wealthy but they gave charity and they helped the poor and they are our examples.
I may have nothing for dinner but I have the food of faith to feed me.
I may have no treasures but the acceptance of the Almighty is my treasure and seeing a smile on the face of the tortured people is my gift that they can give to me.
Let's think of a way to start this institution.
Because what is happening in the world is so funny. There is no balance no equality. Some countries are moving like shooting stars in technology and they made everything luxurius but that has no meanings to the ones who need food or water. What is humanity if we can't help each other. What's happening now is called selfishness.
Think of some ideas and let me know if we can find a solution for this earthly problem.
This is an invitation for everyone to share his ideas, what do you think of opening a new thread about it?

Futuwwa said:

Lol, que? At 1500, Christendom dreaded for its life before the Ottoman Empire, the most powerful and advanced state in the world at the time.

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That is very true. Of course, that all changed on Sept 12, 1683 when Christian Soldiers under the Patronage of the Blessed Virgin defeated the Turks outside Vienna.

We continue to remember this as a feast day in the Church today.

Hi again dnihila, I greet you with peace from God.

You wrote:

what do you think of opening a new thread about it?

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Yes, that is certainly a good idea. Not only will it offer us a better place of dicussing this, but it will also leave this particular thread's topic alone from a competitive theme.

You can start a new thread when you want to.


Best,
Disippelen