Where does "allah" say...

ApplePie7 · Sep 7, 2008

Bookofknowledge said:
you have multiple original languages which are not spoken today yet you claim a widly spoken language throughout Arabia and even in America and Muslims scholars who translated and Mastered lingustic Languages doesn't know Classic Arabic...

You are still fishing for excuses for your self-justified ignorance of the language that your book for faith was penned in.

Why do you have such disdain for the language of the Koran?

What great lengths you will go to in order to reduce the original language to yesterdays’ outmoded trash.

well you tell me, I guess you are the authority to confirm all those Muslims doctorates & PHD's & Scholars have Passed or acheived Kinder Garden Level knowledge...

Since you have only disdain for the study of your book of faith, in its original language, how is it that you will ever know?
You won’t.
You can only talk around the text.
You cannot talk directly to the text.

How can Torah be a part of Bible? It was revealed way before Jesus was born....

What exactly do you think the Holy Bible is?

If moon is created by God of Abraham, hell ya we worship the Creator of Moon not moon.

Muslims use the phases of moon to establish holy month, so you should know we Muslims don't worship moon.

The god “allah” is rooted in pagan Arab worship of the new moon (among other things).
Thus, when we see Muslims setting their worship schedule around new moon-phasing; it really seals the deal for their decidedly pagan worship of celestial bodies.

3:137
As for those who rejected the Divine Revelations, there have been many examples before you; therefore, travel through the earth and see what was the end of those who rejected the truth.

Please detail for us the “divine revelations” spoken of in this ayah?

3:138
This (Al-Qur'an) is a clear declaration to mankind, a guidance and an admonition to those who fear Allah!

The term “Al-Qur'an” never appears in the Arabic of this ayah. Neither does the term “allah”.
This is simply abrogation of Koranic scripture in order to force-fit it to match the Islamic paradigm.

2:119
What clearer sign could there be than this Book? We have sent you (O Muhammad) with the knowledge of the Truth and made you the bearer of
good news and warning; now, you will not be called upon to answer about the actions of the companions of the blazing fire.

The term “O Muhammad” never appears in the Arabic of this ayah – nor in the entire sura. Hence the need for you to start studying the classic Arabic to avoid your ignorance of what you google.
Secondly, ‘The Truth’ (alhaqqi) is an epithet for only Jesus Christ, according to 4.171. Thus, this is the second clue for you that is proof positive that this is not talking about your “prophet”.
Thirdly, where does this ayah state that the material is divinely inspired?
It does not.

2:105
The unbelievers among the People of the Book, and the Mushrikin, would never wish that any good be sent down to you, O Muhammad, from your
Rabb, but Allah chooses for His special Mercy whom He pleases, and Allah is the most Graceful.

2:122
O Children of Israel! Remember the special favor which I bestowed upon you; that I exalted you above all other nations.

2:123
Guard yourselves against the day when one soul shall not avail another, no ransom shall be taken, no intercession shall profit anyone, and no help
shall be given.

2:89
Now when there has come to them a Book from Allah confirming the Holy Books of Torah and Gospel which they already have - even though before this they used to pray for victory against the unbelievers - when there came to them that which they very well recognize, they knowingly rejected it; Allah's curse is on such disbelievers.

2:90
Ridiculous is the price for which they have sold away their souls, that they deny Allah's revelation merely because of their grudge, that Allah should send His grace (on an Israelite rather than ) on whom He pleases from His servants (Muhammad)! They have drawn on themselves wrath upon wrath, and for such disbelievers there is a disgraceful punishment.

Again, the term “Muhammad” never appears in the Arabic of these ayahs, nor in the entire sura of these ayah.

More abrogation.

Further, there is nothing in these ayahs that denounces the Koranic fact that the lord’s blessing and covenant is completed through the lineage of Isaac.

ApplePie7 · Sep 7, 2008

Bookofknowledge said:
Thank you, so you are saying that the revelation came through Jesus was a reminder and a warrning to mankind.

5:46
Then in the footsteps of those Prophets, We sent Isa (Jesus) the son of Maryam (Mary) confirming whatever remained intact from the Taurat in his time, and gave him the Injeel (Gospel) wherein was guidance and light, corroborating what was revealed in the Taurat; a guidance and an admonition to those who fear Allah.

This is yet another example of your Arabic ignorance.

The phrase "confirming whatever remained intact from the Taurat in his time" never appears in the original Arabic.

Here is the correct rending of this ayah...

وقفينا على ءاثرهم بعيسى ابن مريم مصدقا لما

بين يديه من التورية وءاتينه الإنجيل فيه هدى

ونور ومصدقا لما بين يديه من التورية وهدى

وموعظة للمتقين

Waqaffayna AAala atharihim biAAeesa ibni maryama musaddiqan lima bayna yadayhi mina alttawrati waataynahu al-injeela feehi hudan wanoorun wamusaddiqan lima bayna yadayhi mina alttawrati wahudan wamawAAithatan lilmuttaqeena

5.46 And we caused to follow for the sake of their evidences on account of Jesus, Mary's son, fulfilling The Truth altogether manifest before Him from the scriptures of the Jews and Christians, and we gave Him The Gospel concerning Him, a victim for sacrifice, and light, and fulfilling The Truth altogether manifest before Him from the scriptures of the Jews and Christians, and a victim for sacrifice and an admonition for guarding against evils.

5:48
To you, O Muhammad, We have revealed this Book with the truth. It confirms whatever has remained intact in the scriptures which came before it and also to safeguard it. Therefore, judge between people according to Allah's revelations and do not yield to their vain desires diverging from the truth which has come to you. We have ordained a law and a Way of life for each of you. If Allah wanted He could have made all of you a single nation. But He willed otherwise in order to test you in what He has given you; therefore try to excel one another in good deeds. Ultimately you all shall return to Allah; then He will show you the truth of those matters in which you dispute.

Again, more abrogation of your scriptures due to unbridled ignorance.

The term "Muhammad" never appears in the text...and you don't even bother with placing it in parenthesis this time around...pretty soon you will have re-written your book of faith in English to totally conform to how your think it should read...

Show some respect.

Bookofknowledge · Sep 10, 2008

Secundulus said:
Yes. It was also a clarification.

This is true, notwithstanding that your definition of Torah and Gospel is far different than a Jewish or Christian understanding.

You see, here is the problem. You say the Torah and Gospel is not intact while we say it is. Personally. I am inclined to believe the testimony of multiple Apostles that lived with Jesus rather than the testimony of a man 600 years later that said he spoke to a ghost in a cave.

How would I as a Muslim will ever in my sleep could say the revealed Holly Books Apart when we Muslims bet the source is One.

The only time one needs a clarification or reminder from God is when Mankind tend to astray hence stating we believe Torah and Gospel is still intact is wishful thinking.

You can believe the companions of Jesus but you also have the responsibility to Obey God and God sent Messenger & Prophets before Jesus hence we have the era to study before Jesus & After Jesus.

Secundulus · Sep 10, 2008

Bookofknowledge said:
You can believe the companions of Jesus but you also have the responsibility to Obey God and God sent Messenger & Prophets before Jesus hence we have the era to study before Jesus & After Jesus.

An honest person, one looking for the truth, will recognize that everything that Jesus said is in accordance with what the Old Testament prophets said. What Muhammed said is different. Did God change his mind?

mo.mentum · Sep 13, 2008

God does not change his mind. Obviously. And by that thread, why would he suddenly become a triune deity as of the Nicene council and "New" Testament, when throughout the whole of the Old Testament the Scriptures stress the One-ness of the Creator, and not associating ANYTHING or ANYONE with Him.

Philothei · Sep 13, 2008

God does not change his mind. Obviously. And by that thread, why would he suddenly become a triune deity as of the Nicene council and "New" Testament, when throughout the whole of the Old Testament the Scriptures stress the One-ness of the Creator, and not associating ANYTHING or ANYONE with Him.

The triune God always existed and is one. The three persons in one God head is found in the Scripture of the Old Testament as it says "Let us make man in our image and likeness" and other typologies as the "word of God" meaning God's Son, Christ. The prophesy is already obvious in the Old Testament. You just have to look in the right places as Christ did come to "reveal" the Father through him... for He said "I am the way to the Father..."

Islam_mulia · Sep 13, 2008

Philothei said:
The triune God always existed and is one.

If that was what you believe, we could have seen that written clearly in the Jewish scriptures and Jesus should have clarified its existence. But nope. I do not see that in the OT and I dont even read Jesus saying anything close about the trinity.

Philothei said:
The three persons in one God head is found in the Scripture of the Old Testament as it says "Let us make man in our image and likeness"

How does that tell you about trinity? If I were to read that statement without trying to understand how Jews interprete that, I would say something like god makes humans, millions of them, like god, in his image and likeness.

Philothei said:
and other typologies as the "word of God" meaning God's Son, Christ.

How does that translate into the trinity?

Btw. how come Christians cannot believe that god can have more than one son?

Philothei said:
The prophesy is already obvious in the Old Testament. You just have to look in the right places as Christ did come to "reveal" the Father through him... for He said "I am the way to the Father..."

False premise. If you look at the OT, those 'prophecies' are not prophecies at all or are unfulfilled in Jesus.

btw, how does the prophecies prove the trinity?

Philothei · Sep 13, 2008

You can open up a thread on the Trinity and i would be glad to discuss it with you

I think this is an off topic for this thread...Or better yet I would like to invite you to St. Justin's martyr forum in the EO forum and you can put up a thread we would be happy to discuss it with you

Secundulus · Sep 14, 2008

mo.mentum said:
God does not change his mind. Obviously. And by that thread, why would he suddenly become a triune deity as of the Nicene council and "New" Testament, when throughout the whole of the Old Testament the Scriptures stress the One-ness of the Creator, and not associating ANYTHING or ANYONE with Him.

In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth. And the earth was without form, and void; and darkness was upon the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters.http://christianforums.com/newreply.php?do=newreply&p=48573145#_ftn1
http://christianforums.com/newreply.php?do=newreply&p=48573145#_ftnref1KJV Ge 1:1-2

Already in the first two sentences of the scriptures we have mention of the first and third person of the Trinity.

The idea is at the core of the religion.

Islam_mulia · Sep 14, 2008

Philothei said:
You can open up a thread on the Trinity and i would be glad to discuss it with you I think this is an off topic for this thread...Or better yet I would like to invite you to St. Justin's martyr forum in the EO forum and you can put up a thread we would be happy to discuss it with you

Actually, this thread is quite relevant to discuss the trinity.

The thread is about was about what Allah says (in the Quran). In the Quran Jesus claimed that he did not say anything about asking his followers to pray to others other than God. Since you believe in the trinity, this will be contrary to what Muslims believe Jesus preached during his lifetime.

So, I dare say that Jesus did not teach about trinity and the teachings of the trinity can never be found in the bible.

Philothei · Sep 14, 2008

As this thread is very long it has already covered some of the discussion on the Trinity..already
Refer to post # 219 and also the website posted there it is pretty imformative of the Old Testament verses where one can see the typology of the Holy Trinity. I do not see a point to discussing that with you as the whole thread contains the information you are looking for...

Enjoy !

beamishboy · Sep 14, 2008

ApplePie7 said:
The god allah is rooted in pagan Arab worship of the new moon (among other things).
Thus, when we see Muslims setting their worship schedule around new moon-phasing; it really seals the deal for their decidedly pagan worship of celestial bodies.

Thanks, AppliePie7, I now understand why they use the symbol of the moon and why everything revolves round the moon. That explains a lot.

Actually, I remember reading something like this somewhere when I tried to research on the Satanic verses in the Quran. When that great writer, Sir Salman Rushdie wrote The Satanic Verses, he didn't create the title himself. These are verses which were once in the Quran and got abrogated by Muhammad who declared that they were Satanic. Or something like that. But I'm pretty sure I'm right cos I read it somewhere.

Bookofknowledge · Sep 15, 2008

Secundulus said:
An honest person, one looking for the truth, will recognize that everything that Jesus said is in accordance with what the Old Testament prophets said. What Muhammed said is different. Did God change his mind?

Why would God change his mind when infact Mankind have been blessed by God time after time reminding people through Prophets. so, it's Mankind who has the tendency to forget, change, and disobey the commandments of God after truth has been established.

Remember when Moses went to receive the commandments, his people started praying calf, so before questioning the message of Prophets you should question the change which occured after Jesus was gone.

If you going to keep saying "Muhammad (SAW)" said different then you should know the open invitation of Qur'aan - "Come to what is common"

yaqovzadeek · Sep 17, 2008

ApplePie7 said:
This is yet another example of your Arabic ignorance.

The phrase "confirming whatever remained intact from the Taurat in his time" never appears in the original Arabic.

Here is the correct rending of this ayah...

وقفينا على ءاثرهم بعيسى ابن مريم مصدقا لما

بين يديه من التورية وءاتينه الإنجيل فيه هدى

ونور ومصدقا لما بين يديه من التورية وهدى

وموعظة للمتقين

Waqaffayna AAala atharihim biAAeesa ibni maryama musaddiqan lima bayna yadayhi mina alttawrati waataynahu al-injeela feehi hudan wanoorun wamusaddiqan lima bayna yadayhi mina alttawrati wahudan wamawAAithatan lilmuttaqeena

5.46 And we caused to follow for the sake of their evidences on account of Jesus, Mary's son, fulfilling The Truth altogether manifestbefore Him from the scriptures of the Jews and Christians, and we gave Him The Gospel concerning Him, a victim for sacrifice, and light, and fulfilling The Truth altogether manifestbefore Him from the scriptures of the Jews and Christians, and a victim for sacrifice and an admonition for guarding against evils.

Again, more abrogation of your scriptures due to unbridled ignorance.

The term "Muhammad" never appears in the text...and you don't even bother with placing it in parenthesis this time around...pretty soon you will have re-written your book of faith in English to totally conform to how your think it should read...

Show some respect.

I think it is you who needs to show some respect. We had people Like Abdulah ibn Abbas who was blessed by God to be one of the Greatest scholars of Islam who was the cousin of thr prophet( saws), who was raised in his household.The prophet made specific supplications for him to become the walking scholar of the Quran. He explained the whole quran for us. So we don't need apple stinking pie to come and distort the words if the Quran making out he understands it better than the Prophet and those who he taught. Apart from Ibn Abbas there were others too who outlived the prophet by many decades who were taught the quran by him and who gace us the direct meanings and explanations
It has all been explained and made clear already, from those who were there at the time so stop wasting your time trying to make out you know any better. it just won't work, do you think because of your distortion people muslims would leave the explanation of the Greatest scholar islam ever had and come running to you?
We don't need your interpretation, so run along now and go and play
peace
yaqovzadeek
aka James the just

yaqovzadeek · Sep 17, 2008

ApplePie7 said:
False.

The Holy Bible can be studied in its original languages,

wrong very few people today can actually read or even understand Classical Hebrew, Kone greek or even aramaic.

ApplePie7 said:
just like the Koran can.

how ever ther are thousands of people today who can read and understand classical and modern Arabic.

ApplePie7 said:
There are many people who study classic Arabic.

like i mentioned above that cannot be said be about Hebrew , Kone greek and Original aramaic that Jesus spoke.
peace
Yaqovzadeek
aka james the just

ApplePie7 · Sep 17, 2008

Islam_mulia said:
If that was what you believe, we could have seen that written clearly in the Jewish scriptures and Jesus should have clarified its existence. But nope. I do not see that in the OT and I dont even read Jesus saying anything close about the trinity.

The Holy Trinity is present in the First three verses of Genesis, and carries all the way to Revelation.

Even the authors of the Koran knew this when they copied the Holy Bible.

ApplePie7 · Sep 17, 2008

Islam_mulia said:
Actually, this thread is quite relevant to discuss the trinity.

The thread is about was about what Allah says (in the Quran).

And...

What does your "allah" say in the Koran....?

In the Quran Jesus claimed that he did not say anything about asking his followers to pray to others other than God.

So....now....you have shifted to what Jesus "says" in the Koran in lieu of the god "allah"....?

Since you believe in the trinity, this will be contrary to what Muslims believe Jesus preached during his lifetime.

What Muslims believe, and what is stated in their book of faith are two entirely different things.

So, I dare say that Jesus did not teach about trinity and the teachings of the trinity can never be found in the bible.

False.

Jesus directly quotes the OT Shema as proof for the Trinity.

ApplePie7 · Sep 17, 2008

beamishboy said:
Thanks, AppliePie7, I now understand why they use the symbol of the moon and why everything revolves round the moon. That explains a lot.

Actually, I remember reading something like this somewhere when I tried to research on the Satanic verses in the Quran. When that great writer, Sir Salman Rushdie wrote The Satanic Verses, he didn't create the title himself. These are verses which were once in the Quran and got abrogated by Muhammad who declared that they were Satanic. Or something like that. But I'm pretty sure I'm right cos I read it somewhere.

Hi Beamishboy....

Indeed, it is much more than a passing fancy that Muslims still hold dear to moon worship, as their entire faith is built around the worship of pagan Arab deities.

ApplePie7 · Sep 17, 2008

yaqovzadeek said:
I think it is you who needs to show some respect. We had people Like Abdulah ibn Abbas who was blessed by God to be one of the Greatest scholars of Islam who was the cousin of thr prophet( saws), who was raised in his household.The prophet made specific supplications for him to become the walking scholar of the Quran. He explained the whole quran for us. So we don't need apple stinking pie to come and distort the words if the Quran making out he understands it better than the Prophet and those who he taught. Apart from Ibn Abbas there were others too who outlived the prophet by many decades who were taught the quran by him and who gace us the direct meanings and explanations
It has all been explained and made clear already, from those who were there at the time so stop wasting your time trying to make out you know any better. it just won't work, do you think because of your distortion people muslims would leave the explanation of the Greatest scholar islam ever had and come running to you?
We don't need your interpretation, so run along now and go and play
peace
yaqovzadeek
aka James the just

If the Koran was so clear then why are there so many different translations...all saying radically different things in the same ayah?

Which translation do you follow?

Yusuf Ali....Pickthal.....Omar....Sale...Ahmed....etc, etc, etc...

ApplePie7 · Sep 17, 2008

yaqovzadeek said:
wrong very few people today can actually read or even understand Classical Hebrew, Kone greek or even aramaic.

False.

The original languages can easily be studied and verified today with a plethora of available resources.

However, you are still looking for yet more excuses to avoid serious study.

how ever ther are thousands of people today who can read and understand classical and modern Arabic.

Thanks for making the distinction between the extinct classic Arabic and its replacement, Modern Arabic.

How is it that you are not one of those "thousands" that think the classic Arabic is worthy of your time?

Where does "allah" say...

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