The Filioque: What does Rome believe?

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Reader Antonius

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So you accept the councils that anathematize additions to to the Creed, but reject decisions of the 8th Ecunmeical Council, signed by the Roman Pope that rejects an addition to the Creed? Contradictory, methinks.

The Oecumenical Orthodox Church sees the Photian synod of 879-880 as Ecumenical? That's news to me...........:D
 
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Reader Antonius

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To my sister Julia,

Are you sure that you want to debate the Photian Council of 879-880? And whether Pope St. John VIII really declared St. Photios' canons as binding?

You have appealed to history....to history shall I go? :confused:

St. Photios the Great of Constantinople, pray for us during this dialogue! :crossrc:Amen.
 
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katholikos

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Code:
The Western Church commonly uses a version of the Nicene Creed which has the Latin word filioque ("and the Son") added after the declaration that the Holy Spirit proceeds from the Father. Scripture reveals that the Spirit proceeds from the Father and the Son. The external relationships of the persons of the Trinity mirror their internal relationships. [B]Just as the Father externally sent the Son into the world in time, the Son internally proceeds from the Father in the Trinity[/B]. Just as the Spirit is externally sent into the world by the Son as well as the Father (John 15:26, Acts 2:33), he internally proceeds from both Father and Son in the Trinity. This is why the Spirit is referred to as the Spirit of the Son (Gal. 4:6) and not just the Spirit of the Father (Matt. 10:20).

This, from an Orthodox point of view is blatant heresy as it confuses the very characteristics that distinguish the Three Persons of the Holy Trinity:
Father = unbegotten
Son = begotten of the Father
Holy Spirit = proceeds from the Father

But the Bible reveals that the Spirit does proceed from the Son. The external relationships of the Persons of the Trinity mirror their internal relationships. Just as the Father externally sent the Son into the world in time, the Son proceeds from the Father internally in the Trinity. Just as the Spirit is externally sent into the world by the Son as well as the Father (John 15:26, Acts 2:33), he proceeds from both Father and Son internally in the Trinity. This is why the Spirit is referred to as the Spirit of the Son (Gal. 4:6) and not just the Spirit of the Father (Matt. 10:20).

Hey, but that text thingy you put in there is pretty slick. :)
 
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Reader Antonius

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But the Bible reveals that the Spirit does proceed from the Son. The external relationships of the Persons of the Trinity mirror their internal relationships. Just as the Father externally sent the Son into the world in time, the Son proceeds from the Father internally in the Trinity. Just as the Spirit is externally sent into the world by the Son as well as the Father (John 15:26, Acts 2:33), he proceeds from both Father and Son internally in the Trinity. This is why the Spirit is referred to as the Spirit of the Son (Gal. 4:6) and not just the Spirit of the Father (Matt. 10:20).

Hey, but that text thingy you put in there is pretty slick. :)

Very good, however do not forget brother that you are speaking of the procession...not the source. ;)
 
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rusmeister

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Hmm, what about the testimonies of the Fathers? It is mostly they who keep me from breaking communion with Rome? ;)
Antonius,
It is the understanding and interpretation of the Church Fathers that are viewed through the lens of what we have accepted as authority. Like the Bible, they can be misinterpreted without it, and with it - it then depends on what you have accepted as authority. Since you are coming from a Catholic reading of the Fathers, you take the Roman assumption that they hold the Roman Bishop as a supreme leader, etc etc, and thus, interpret that as saying that you should be faithful and obedient to that first.

The one thing you do not seem to be doing is to understand the Orthodox perspective. That makes debate rather boring, because the only progress you can make is in really understanding the person you disagree with. It looks like you are charging in, armed with what you have been taught to teach us how wrong we are - thus, I'm not terribly interested in reading your lengthy posts telling us about the "truth" at the moment. I'd be more interested if you showed that you have some genuine understanding of and appreciation for the Orthodox position. You can't just read a few web pages and think that you know what you need to know.

Thus my earlier posts. I do not at all mean to imply that you or others here are stupid - just that the issues really are of enormous complexity - if they weren't, we (as in both sides) would've ended the schism long ago. That's why, while you may have spent some serious time studying the Latin position, it will take a good deal of time to examine the Eastern position as well. Rather than debate, I would focus on understanding EO right now (particularly if you are quite confident of Catholicism).

In Christ, and hoping for eventual unity and understanding... :)
 
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ikonographics

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Antonius,
It is the understanding and interpretation of the Church Fathers that are viewed through the lens of what we have accepted as authority. Like the Bible, they can be misinterpreted without it, and with it - it then depends on what you have accepted as authority. Since you are coming from a Catholic reading of the Fathers, you take the Roman assumption that they hold the Roman Bishop as a supreme leader, etc etc, and thus, interpret that as saying that you should be faithful and obedient to that first.

The one thing you do not seem to be doing is to understand the Orthodox perspective. That makes debate rather boring, because the only progress you can make is in really understanding the person you disagree with. It looks like you are charging in, armed with what you have been taught to teach us how wrong we are - thus, I'm not terribly interested in reading your lengthy posts telling us about the "truth" at the moment. I'd be more interested if you showed that you have some genuine understanding of and appreciation for the Orthodox position. You can't just read a few web pages and think that you know what you need to know.

:amen:
 
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Reader Antonius

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I'm glad you have learned something new today:D

Spare me sister. You know as well as I do that the Photian synod is disputed is not accepted by the whole of the Orthodox Church as ecumenical.
 
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Reader Antonius

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It is the understanding and interpretation of the Church Fathers that are viewed through the lens of what we have accepted as authority.

Since you are coming from a Catholic reading of the Fathers, you take the Roman assumption that they hold the Roman Bishop as a supreme leader, etc etc, and thus, interpret that as saying that you should be faithful and obedient to that first.

This the typical Orthodox response to the clear "Popery" exhibited by the Eastern Fathers. It is a parry with obfuscating remarks about the difference between Orthodox and Catholic interpretations. To raise the question of interpretation may seem fair enough. Yet there are some facts that are simply too large to be reasonably parried by alternative interpretations.

In the end, I believe, it boils down to:

"We are not you and you don't understand us because you're Western."

I can offer several examples of testimony to Papal Primacy of Jurisdiction in the ancient Church. The Holy Fathers offer a cross-section of the unanimous assumption of Roman supremacy that exists in the historical record of Sacred Tradition. But rather than address these directly, most of my Orthodox brethren turn to various arcane theological considerations, claiming that these are the root of the problem with the "Western interpretation" of Papal Primacy. However, their speculative arcana are far from clear or cogent; and, more importantly, they are a way of ignoring the blatant historical fact that the early Church (East and West) accepted universal Papal jurisdiction from the beginning right up to the time of the Photian Schism of the ninth century.

This reminds me of my Protestant Fundamentalist past when I declared myself (as other Fundamentalists did around me) "quite comfortable with the facts of history." After my agonizing journey in the desert, it is clear that what the Fundamentalist and Orthodox share in common is the reservation to themselves of the authority to decide when it was that Rome "held to the true faith." By what standard? The Fundamentalist would say Scripture. The Orthodox would say Tradition. But each ignore the massive corpus of evidence in the Holy Fathers that testify unequivocally to Petrine Primacy.

Also, may I remind you brother that the only reason I am offering lengthy posts that you are disinterested in reading is because of the off-topic claims made by my Orthodox brethren here.

May I also remind you that this thread is probing what you, as an EASTERN Orthodox Christian, understand and grasp about the LATIN Catholic understanding of the filioque.

So...to be frank, I have no desire (nor do I see any need) to offer some comprehensive explanation of my understanding of Orthodox theology on the Papacy, primus inter pares, Orthodox ecclesiology, etc.



Of course your thoughts are most interesting. I might start a thread in which I offer samples of the Holy Fathers, and you could explain to me and teach me, in depth, how the Holy Fathers' statements do not contradict EO understandings. ;)
 
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Lukaris

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What I cannot understand from the Catholic answers "This rock" article is that the distinction is never made that the Son is begotten of the Father while the Holy Spirit proceeds from the Father. To say that the Holy Spirit proceeds from the Father and the Son is unbalanced and may I defer again to the 1848 encyclical: 5.1: This novel opinion destroys the oneness from the One cause, and diverse origin of the Persons of the Blessed Trinity, both of whom are witnessed to in the Gospel." 5.2: "Even into the divine Hypostases or Persons of the Trinity, of equal power and equally to be adored, it introduces divine and unequal relations, with a confusion or commingling of them." "This Rock" also mentions the assent of Greek theologians to the filioque in the 1439 council of Florence; well, the days of the Eastern remnant of the Roman empire were numbered & in desperation many of us humans flounder. Next the quotations from St. Maximus (to St. Thalassios) has a misprint rendering its time period in the 3rd century while these blessed saints lived in the 7th century ( someone e-mail Catholic answers & tell them about that). Re St.Maximos & the filioque: he and St. Thalassios were personally acquainted & mutually understood the Holy Trinity. St. Thalassios,92. "We regard the Father as unoriginate and as the source: because He is the begetter of the Son and the sender forth of the Holy Spirit both of whom are by essence from Him and in Him from all eternity." 93. Paradoxically, the One moves from itself into the Three and yet remains One, while the Three return to the One and yet remain Three. 94. Again, the Son and the Spirit are regarded as not unoriginate, and yet from all eternity. They are not unoriginate because the Father is their origin and source; but They are eternal in that They coexist with the Father, the one begotten by Him and the other proceeding from Him from all eternity." (4th century (100s of passages) writings of St. Thalassios, Philokalia vol.2). St. Maximos expresses the same Trinitarian understanding, "For the Lord Jesus is mediator between God and men, as the divine apostle says (cf. 1 Timothy 2:5), since He makes the unknown Father manifest to men through the flesh, gives those reconciled to Him access to the Father through the Holy Spirit (cf Ephesians 2:18). (St. Maximos, On the Lord's Prayer, Philokalia vol. 2). The distinctions of the Hypostases & procession is so clear in these blessed saints writings reflecting the truthful teaching in the apostolic faith. When I hear on the radio Sunday morning DL of an Eastern Catholic church & the blessed priest (94 yrs old God bless him) while driving to the DL at our Orthodox Church the recitation of the creed minus the filoque but later a reference to the Immaculate Conception in prayer,I just shake my head in confusion.
 
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Padraig

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I can offer several examples of testimony to Papal Primacy of Jurisdiction in the ancient Church. The Holy Fathers offer a cross-section of the unanimous assumption of Roman supremacy that exists in the historical record of Sacred Tradition. But rather than address these directly, most of my Orthodox brethren turn to various arcane theological considerations, claiming that these are the root of the problem with the "Western interpretation" of Papal Primacy. However, their speculative arcana are far from clear or cogent; and, more importantly, they are a way of ignoring the blatant historical fact that the early Church (East and West) accepted universal Papal jurisdiction from the beginning right up to the time of the Photian Schism of the ninth century.

God forgive me for getting on this board again. I had to answer this, though. It is interesting that you use these words interchangeably: primacy and supremacy. While all Orthodox would readily acknowledge the former, the writings of the Fathers never assume the latter. You read the Eastern Fathers, but you read them with a false presupposition that they support your claim (Rome's claim). I would suggest reading not only the conciliar decisions, but the canonical Tradition of the Church as well. It is set forth in these Canons how the Church is to be governed, conciliarly. There has been no deviation from this in the Church. If the Church believed in papal supremacy the canonical and conciliar tradition of the Church would've been of no effect. At the time of the Schism, this is what we have: 1 Patriarch (Rome) versus 4 Patriarchs. If it was consensus among the Fathers that Rome held supremacy, would there have been such an unequal split? Logically, it would seem to me that there would have been at least one more Patriarch (Alexandria perhaps) that sided with Rome. This did not happen because Roman supremacy was anathema to the Church.

The Orthodox faithful will remain true to the conciliar tradition of the Church. We cannot, and must not, deviate from it no matter the payoff (i.e. some sort of "reunion" with Rome). Indeed, even Pope Benedict has suggested that the Orthodox need not recognize papal "supremacy" in order to be in communion. It all boils down, unfortunately, to triumphalism. Now, I know that many Orthodox are guilty of the same sin, myself included. But let us be honest and call it what it is.

Instead of berating one another, and talking past one another, as has happened on this thread and a great many others, let us pray for one another. Neither you yourself or any one of us can argue the other into the Kingdom. It is futile because these things go far beyond rational discourse, and rightly so. If you think we are in error, then I would hope you would pray for us and not berate us out of simple Christian charity. I would expect nothing less–rather I would expect even more– from the Orthodox.

To sum up, you read the Fathers, and we read the Fathers. You read them via Rome, we read them via the East. You think we're wrong, and vice versa. Perhaps, instead of mixing up words and using such interchangeably (i.e. primacy and supremacy) and our getting bent out of shape about it, we could discuss veneration of Saints, the Exaltation of the Cross, the Incarnation of our Lord and Savior, and so forth. You will accomplish nothing by belittling that which you do not grasp, and neither will we.

Prayers for all,
Dn Kevin
 
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ikonographics

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We shall summarize the Orthodox position in theology, as regards the “Filioque”, by making the following, basic observations:
Firstly, with regard to Providence. “Providence” implies the actions and the acts of God, within History and Creation. We too accept that the Holy Spirit is given, is sent forth by the Son. So far, at this level, the Filioque is acceptable. However, we cannot accept it from the aspect of the eternal, the never-ending status of the Holy Trinity, where the relations between the Personae are not relations that pertain to any energies.
As far as the eternal and never-ending Trinity is concerned, we cannot accept that the Spirit also proceeds from the Son, because inside the Trinity, we have ontological relations only, and inevitably, the Cause can only be one: the Father. Because, by introducing two Causes, we will inevitably have two Gods.
In Providence, one could say it is acceptable to admit that the Spirit is also dependent on the Son; that it is a gift, given to us by the Son. In this context, one can speak in the same way that the Apostle Paul spoke, with regard to the Spirit of Christ, i.e., that the Spirit does indeed proceed from the Father, but, It is sent forth, into Providence, via the Son. The term “proceeding from” (εκπορεύεται) strictly pertains to the Spirit’s ontological dependence on the Father, within the eternal Trinity, therefore, the term “proceeding from” pertains only to the eternal status of the Trinity. The association here is strictly ontological, and the Causer is only one: the Father.
When dealing with Providence however, we do not touch on ontological associations, but only those associations that pertain to energies/actions, hence the Son’s action of sending forth the Spirit. In this way, we have a sort of Filioque, but only in regard to Providence.
In light of the above, significant confusion arose in the West, with regard to these two terms. The (Greek) words “εκπορεύεται” ( proceeding from/out of ) and “πέμπεται” ( sent forth by ) were translated in Latin, as both meaning “procedure”, right from the very start, in the 4th century.This is what gave rise to the confusion. They could not discern between these two notions, whereas in the (Greek-speaking) East they were discernable, hence the term “proceeding from” (εκπορεύεται) was duly confined to the eternal, ontological aspect of the Trinity, and was not used in reference to Providence. From the very beginning, the Filioque was applied by the West, to both aspects (ontological and Providential). This is how the confusion began, and the Filioque appeared as the offspring of precisely this confusion. For the East, this distinction is imperative; if one does make this distinction, then he can accept the Filioque, but only in regard to Providence. But the Filioque, in its true dimensions as defined by the West, is not only linked to Providence, but also to the eternal Trinity. And that is where we have a problem. Can one apply the Filioque to the eternal Trinity? Let’s observe the problems that Patristic Theology encountered here.
In the 7th century, Saint Maximus was asked (because word was getting around that the Filioque was being used in the West), what his opinion was on this matter. He replied that he had examined the matter, and that the situation was as follows:
The Latin-speaking Romans did not have respective words for expressing these two notions (“εκπορεύεται” and “πέμπεται”). They used only one word. This consequently gave rise to a confusion. We Greeks, who speak the language, must therefore show some understanding in this regard and not automatically declare the Filioque a heresy of the Westerners, because, as analytically explained in the “epistle to Marinus”, the Filioque was the product of this confusion.
In the same epistle, Saint Maximus says that during his talks with the Romans themselves about this issue, he had noticed that they also referred to Saint Cyril of Alexandria in order to support the Filioque. Saint Cyril had indeed written certain things that could have provided a basis for the Filioque. We also have one testimony that something which was written by Saint Cyril on the subject had generated an intense reaction. It was the reaction of Theodoretus of Cyrus who was quite strident in his manner, and who commented that if Cyril was referring to the Filioque in regard to Providence, then all is well; but if he was relating it to the eternal Trinity, then he was mistaken, and this could not be accepted.
It was obvious that Cyril did not mean it, simply and strictly within the confines of Providence, as he had also allowed inferences to the eternal Trinity. He did not say “proceeds from” (εκπορεύεται); he did not use this word. He used the expression that the Spirit is manifested; that it essentially originates (i.e., with regard to the Essence) from the Son also. Given that the Essence is common to all three Personae, then the Son must necessarily precede the Spirit, from the aspect of the Essence. But, as for the Persona of the Spirit in connection to the other two Personae, we cannot have the Filioque, because only the Father –as a Persona- can be the Cause. At first glance, this appears somewhat vague.
A passage by Saint Gregory of Nyssa clarifies this vague point somewhat satisfactorily. In his work “That there are not three Gods” (ότι ουκ εισί τρεις Θεοί), he says:
«We do not disregard the difference between that which exists as the Cause, and that which is OF the Cause». We therefore have the Cause as one thing, and secondarily, that which is OF the Cause. In other words, the existence of God is not a simple thing; one cannot say that God simply “exists”. God’s existence includes activity, movement. Even within God’s Being – within His ontological associations –activity exists. God is not devoid of cause; He does not exist without cause. The cause is naturally inside His very Self, but, there is a distinction inside God: it is the distinction between the Cause and whatever originates from the cause.
«We support the difference between the One Who exists as the Cause and the One who is OF the Cause». It is in this way -and only in this way- that we can perceive how the one Persona is discerned from the other; i.e., in the belief that the Cause is one, and the other is OF the Cause. He further says that «the distinction between the Personae inside the Holy Trinity cannot be made in any other way, except only in regard to this causalityWith regard to the nature, with regard to the energy, we cannot make such a distinction; however we can make it, on the basis of this principle of causality. This is a principle that was introduced by the Cappadocians. Before them, we do not find it clearly specified.
We therefore have the ability to discern the Personae, precisely because we make the distinction between the Causer and that which is OF the Causer. And he continues: «With regard to that which is OF the Cause, we have in there another distinction, whereas with regard to the Cause, it is clear that it is only the Father. When referring to “OF the cause”, we can acknowledge a further difference: That only the one of the two originates immediately from the First». He uses the word “immediately”, which implies “directly”, or, “without any intermediation”. «The one originates immediately from the Cause, while the other originates through (=with the intermediation of) the one who originates directly from the First». The difference between the Son and the Spirit –in regard to the appearance, the existence and the origin of the two- is that the Son comes forth directly from the Father (the Cause), while the Spirit comes forth through the intermediation of the one who originates directly from the Cause, i.e., via the Son.


Continued in next post...
 
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ikonographics

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But why does Gregory make this distinction and observation? He goes on to explain, that «Thus, it is in this way, with this intermediation, this intercession of the Son in the life of divinity, in divine existence, that His characteristic of ‘Only-born’ is preserved» So, in order for the Son to remain “the Only-Born Son”, we must attribute this “immediacy” to Him, otherwise we will somehow end up with two Sons, albeit the natural, the essential association of the Spirit with the Father is not abolished, because all of divine nature also exists within the Son, and consequently, in everything essential (as regards the nature), the Spirit likewise communes with the Father, even though it comes into existence through the intermediation of the Son.
This could be interpreted as a kind of Filioque from the aspect of God’s eternal existence; however, neither the Son nor the Spirit can be regarded as Causes. In other words, while the Son may in some way intercede for the Holy Spirit to come into existence, this does not make the Son the Causer of the Spirit. The Causer is always the Father.
In summarizing what we have said, we need to reach a conclusion, because we have before us some very delicate nuances. We need to maintain the principle -the faith- that only the Father can be the Cause, and that the Son –on account of the Filioque- can by no means be perceived as a co-Causer of the Spirit’s existence.
Therefore, from the aspect of Providence, there is no problem. From the aspect of the eternality of the Trinity however, we have the problem whether the intercession of the Son in the procession of the Holy Spirit somehow makes the Son the Cause of the Spirit, or not.
In his epistle “To Marinus”, Saint Maximus stressed that he had discussed the issue with the Romans of his time, and had concluded that they did not imply that the Son is the Causer. Thus, Maximus acquitted the Westerners of the accusation of heresy. Of course, all of this had taken place during the 7th century. Later on, when the Filioque was used by the West as a banner against the Orthodox, things changed, and they took a different turn. In the discussions that took place, the Westerners were no longer predisposed to revoking that the Son is co-Causer along with the Father in the “procession” of the Holy Spirit, thus reducing the Filioque theory to a heresy, because it was not possible to orthodoxically embrace it.
In the Council of Florence, an attempt was made to unify the division. It was through the use of the term “through the Son”. If this had been accepted by both sides, then instead of saying “from the Son”, we would have said “through the Son” – in other words, it would have connoted the intercession of the Son that Gregory of Nyssa had mentioned. But even this attempt failed, because neither side was willing to take a clear stance on the issue, and the West had already stabilized its own position with the expression “from the Father AND the Son”, and was not willing in any way to retract it, and replace it with the expression “THROUGH the Son”
Nowadays, fresh attempts are being made, and it will prove very interesting for one to observe where they will lead. As Orthodox theologians, we must bear in mind that every attempt –whatever it may involve, wherever it may lead- should not lead us into the obscuring of the basic premise that, within the Holy Trinity, ONLY THE FATHER is the Cause.
An idea has been proposed (mainly by a Russian theologian, Bolotov, who has studied this subject especially) that the Filioque should be regarded as something that can be theologized. There is the distinction, which he basically introduced, that there are many ideas which do not constitute dogmas that affect man’s salvation. Some of them that are regarded as topics for discussion, have been considered items for theologizing, as opposed to dogmas that are not items for theologizing, that should not be subject to discussion.
So, there is a proposal for the Filioque to be regarded as an item to be theologized, but this is a proposal which was not accepted, both by the Westerners and the East. Because even theWesterners continue to maintain (although nowadays they are tending to distance themselves from this stance, whereas in the Middle Ages they clearly supported it) that it is heresy for someone to NOT believe in the Filioque, and that belief in the Filioque comprises a dogma. Consequently, the idea of the Filioque becoming an item to be theologized was not accepted, and from time to time, it is brought up in discussions of our time, along with Bolotov’s positions, but there seems to be no progress in this direction.
Our position should be that: provided the conditions we mentioned above are applied, the Filioque can be considered an item for theologizing. We in the East have no need to introduce this, but, in the West they can use it, provided that they mean it in the appropriate sense, as they did in the 7th century. If they regard it in a manner that makes the Son a co-Causer together with the Father, then we cannot see this as an item for theologizing, but as a heresy, because it jeopardizes monarchy. That the Father alone is the Causer, is linked to the fact that in God, we have only one principality, and that this principality is understood ontologically here. We do NOT have two causes; we do NOT have two principalities. Since we have a monarchy (=one principal), we have only one cause, and that cause coincides with the Father. Thus, literally, God is the Father. If we introduce a second Causer (the Son), then we are at risk of acknowledging two Gods.
The West does not feel that it has this problem, because “monarchy” to them is not the one Father, but the one Essence. The “one God” for the Westerners is the one Essence, and not the Persona of the Father. Consequently, they believe they are not risking the loss of monotheism when they say “AND by the Son”. For the West, monotheism is dependent on the one essence of God, and not the Persona of the Father. And since this is the case, the Filioque does not threaten their monotheism, because their monotheism is not dependent on the notion of the “one Cause”.
We have covered the topic of the Filioque, having seen how it was generated historically, under what premise it could have become accepted, at what point it became a heresy, and at which points it could constitute an item for theologizing.

Metropolitan John Zizioulas - Dogmatics Lectures
 
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Reader Antonius

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I have to say I do wonder just what you are hoping to hear .

In all honesty so do I, my sister Anhelyna.

I came to probe what lay Orthodox internet forums users believed that Rome taught concerning the filioque....much of what I had tried to tell myself wouldn't happen already has.

I have found that discussions over issues like these help me to better understand my faith, and also, they help to clear some of the doubts I struggle with from time to time.

God has been most generous to me during these discussions. In His mercy, He is granting my thirsty soul the answers that I have pined after for some time now. I pray this continues, and like a deer, I return again to the creek to drink. :)
 
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Reader Antonius

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To say that the Holy Spirit proceeds from the Father and the Son is unbalanced and may I defer again to the 1848 encyclical: 5.1: This novel opinion destroys the oneness from the One cause, and diverse origin of the Persons of the Blessed Trinity, both of whom are witnessed to in the Gospel."

Please explain to me brother how this "destroys the oneness from the One cause":

The procession of the Holy Spirit has its sole source in the Father and Him alone. The Helper's procession itself is facilitated through the Son, who Himself is begotten of the Father alone before all worlds.

5.2: "Even into the divine Hypostases or Persons of the Trinity, of equal power and equally to be adored, it introduces divine and unequal relations, with a confusion or commingling of them."

Both these statements are sufficiently vague to mean most anything. They fail to explain HOW the Latin understanding of the filioque "introduces divine and unequal relations...with a confusion or comingling of them."

This must be elucidated clearly, and the synod did not do this. It merely made a claim against the Latin Church, nothing more.

I also ask:

Are you trying to argue that St. Maximos agreed with St. Photios the Great's interpretation of that the source and procession is from the Father alone?!?!

This is a saint who said explicitly that he believed that the Holy Spirit proceeded from the Father 'dia mesou tou Logou', (by means of the Logos). He clearly states that the Spirit proceeded, in his view ineffably from the Father and consubstantially through the Son.

The inability of St. Photios the Great to understand the filioque on the Latin Church's own terms and instead force his Greek understanding onto it, is precisely the problem.
 
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Reader Antonius

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I had to answer this, though. It is interesting that you use these words interchangeably: primacy and supremacy.

While all Orthodox would readily acknowledge the former, the writings of the Fathers never assume the latter.

The legitamate right of the Roman Patriarch to exercise jurisdiction over his brother bishops? Of course they do.

You read the Eastern Fathers, but you read them with a false presupposition that they support your claim (Rome's claim).

When I read these Fathers, I no longer wanted to be Catholic. When I read them for the first time, I did so with a burning, aching desire to break all connection with Rome and become an Greek Orthodox Christian.

I read them after asking the Lord God, and St. Peter himself, to guide me to the truth. I read them with the Orthodox understanding as it is presented in the Orthodox authors whose books I read during my discernment process.

I read them within the context of the heretical controversies and jurisdictional problems as they were outlined in the Christian history books.

I didn't just pick them up looking for evidence to prove to myself that Rome was right. In fact, I searched the Holy Fathers expecting to find the Orthodox understanding.

To my immense sadness and dissappointment, I could not escape what the Fathers themselves stated clearly, and they themselves did.

It is set forth in these Canons how the Church is to be governed, conciliarly.

And the Catholic Church has been governed conciliarly, although not in the understanding the Eastern Churches developed after breaking Roman communion, BUT rather in what the Fathers describe as a conciliar Church.

If the Church believed in papal supremacy the canonical and conciliar tradition of the Church would've been of no effect.

That is because you do not understand what the supremacy of jurisdiction means in the Roman Church my brother. Our understanding of the Pope follows that the of the Fathers, that of a touchstone, an arbiter, and a focal point of doctrinal and sacramental unity....not some monarchial dhespota.

If it was consensus among the Fathers that Rome held supremacy, would there have been such an unequal split?

Yes indeed, it had happened MANY times before. The East was more often than not at odds with Rome, mostly because it's Patriarchal sees and bishphorics were infested with heresy.

It is not surprising at all, and indeed it follows logically, that if there was a spilt, the Chalcedonian Greek Churches of the East would break with the Latin West.

For nearly 1000 years the Church of Rome stood as a beacon of Orthodoxy and unity in the Church. In all the crises she was the light that stood fast against heresy. It was the East, sometimes all the four Patriarchates!, that held to heresies.

Please explain to me, dear brother, the logic and historical presidence, that after 1,000 years of doctrinal purity, the West would become heretical and schismatic....explain how after constant, almost incessant, reigns of heresy in the Eastern Churches, they suddenly become Orthodox and remain so. How is that logical?

The Orthodox faithful will remain true to the conciliar tradition of the Church.

As do we Catholics, however, we understand the conciliar tradition within the context of what the Fathers so clearly taught about Rome's place as the guide and guardian of the universal Church.

We cannot, and must not, deviate from it no matter the payoff (i.e. some sort of "reunion" with Rome).

And neither will the Catholic Church brother. The Melkite Greek Catholic Church could have come back into communion with the Antiochian Orthodox Church MANY times in her history, and yet in the face of horrid conditions, she maintained unity with Rome, despite the fact that leaving Rome would have been much easier (to say the least).


To sum up, you read the Fathers, and we read the Fathers.

You read them via Rome, we read them via the East. You think we're wrong, and vice versa.Prayers for all,

So you say, brother. But the Fathers are too numerous and too explicit in their teachings of the role of the Pope of Rome for some mere and vague notion of interpretation differences to stand in the way.

Many Orthodox Christians left communion with Constantinople and embraced communion with Rome, because of the fact that the Fathers' teachings are too explicit to be harmonized into the Orthodox Communion's understanding of Papal Primacy.

I will begin a thread soon in which I will post quotes from these Fathers, hoping that Orthodox Christians can explain to me their "interpretation" of the unequivocally "Catholic" statements of the Fathers.

I invite you to come and show me this vague interpretation that the Orthodox use to parry the clarity of what is contained in Patristic literature concerning the Pope of Rome.

Until that time, the peace of our common Master be with you.
 
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ikonographics

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Just as the Father externally sent the Son into the world in time, the Son proceeds from the Father internally in the Trinity. (Matt. 10:20).

So now the RC teaches that the Son Proceeds from the Father? That's a new one.
 
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Michael G

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Many Orthodox Christians left communion with Constantinople and embraced communion with Rome, because of the fact that the Fathers' teachings are too explicit to be harmonized into the Orthodox Communion's understanding of Papal Primacy.

Not exactly! The Orthodox churches who apostasized and reunited with Rome after the False Unions of Uzhorod and Brest-Litovsk did so because of Jesuit prostelytization in the Ukraine.
 
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