Rev-18 and that great city Babylon

LittleLambofJesus · Sep 9, 2008

Question 4.
Is Pleroma translated 'full number' any other place in scripture?? Answer, no.
Can in it's contexts be successfuly translated 'full number' any other place in the NT?
Answer, NO.

Please notice that the tense of the word indicates that which has been filled or is being filled. The tense of the words "be coming in" is in the 2nd aorist, which is without past/present/future, but rather a continual state. So the phrase could read, untill the filling of the nations be coming in.

AHHH. Gotta love someone who studies the Greek.
The same exact form of the greek word "to fill" used in Luke 21:24 is also used in reve 6:11 and still trying to figure out the significance of it. Interesting though.

Luke 21:24 "And they shall be falling by mouth of sword, and they shall be being led captive into all the Nations. And Jerusalem shall be being trampled by nations until which may be being filled/plhrw-qwsin <4137> (5686) times of Nations/eqnwn <1484> [Ezekiel 30:1/Daniel 12/Revelation 11:2/ 13:10]

Romans 11:25 For not I am willing ye to being ignorant brothers of the mystery, this, that no ye may be beside yourselves wise. That a hardening from part to-the Israel has become until which the filling/plhrw-ma <4138> of-the Nations/eqnwn <1484> may be entering; [Mark 3:5, Ephesians 4:18]

Reve 6:11 And was given to them each a white robe and it was declared to them that they should be resting still little time till should be being filled/plhrw-qwsin <4137> (5686) also the fellow bondservants of them and the brothers of them the ones being about to be being killed as even they.

HisdaughterJen · Sep 9, 2008

Notrash said:
The point of question 1-4 can be summed up by asking why you would think Paul is referring to a future restoration of Israel when all of his other references are referring to individual salvation of Israelites in 60 AD.

Here's why:

Rom 11:25 I do not want you to be ignorant of this mystery, brothers, so that you may not be conceited: Israel has experienced a hardening in part until the full number of the Gentiles has come in.

If Israel is hardened "in part", that means that some come in with the Gentiles and some do not.

And then it goes on to say:

Rom 11:26 And so all Israel will be saved, as it is written:

The deliverer will come from Zion;
he will turn godlessness away from Jacob.
Rom 11:27 And this is my covenant with them
when I take away their sins.

Rom 11:28 As far as the gospel is concerned, they are enemies on your account; but as far as election is concerned, they are loved on account of the patriarchs,
Rom 11:29for God's gifts and his call are irrevocable.

Question 3.
Since Paul uses a greek word for 'in this manner' or likewise; and "all Israel" has been previously defined in chapter 9 as being not Israel of the flesh, but those who God chooses to have mercy upon...."even us, not of the jews only but also of the Gentiles." and the verse includes the lead in phrase "as it is written" what could this verse be referring to in the then prestent 60 AD time period and to those Romans whom he was writting to? Could it perhaps mean the method in which they would recognized saved and believing jews and gentiles? Could it refer to how they would testify to their faith in Christ and that their sins were forgiven and also how they would have the beginnings of a changed life, like Jacob did??

Rom 11:23 And if they do not persist in unbelief, they will be grafted in, for God is able to graft them in again.

When Jesus comes, they will realize what they did and Jesus will:

Rom 11:26 And so all Israel will be saved, as it is written:

The deliverer will come from Zion;
he will turn godlessness away from Jacob.
Rom 11:27 And this is my covenant with them
when I take away their sins.

Could it be???

Is there anyplace else that we could look to see what the mystery that Paul is referring to here in Romans 11 refers to? Could we look in other chapters nearby in Romans? Could we look in the pre-ceding verses that talk about Israelites being made jealous unto salvation. Paul even says that part of what drives him to spread the gospel is so his own people would be made jealous and that he might save some of them (perhaps from the upcoming desolation and perhaps from their sins).

VS 25. For I dont' want you to be ignorant of this mystery (the mystery about some of the individuals of the remaining unbelieving part of Israel being made jealous perhaps unto salvation and grafted into the faithful obedient) that hardness has come upon some of the elect part of Israel until the fullness of the Spirit be pouring out upon the nations.

Question 5. When did the fullness of the nations that would eventually cause jealousy in some of those Israelites who had not believed in Jesus begin?

Insert your answer here: Mine is below.

Answer is talked about in Acts 15.
vs 7 And when there had been much disputing, Peter rose up, and said unto them, Men [and] brethren, ye know how that a good while ago God made choice among us, that the Gentiles by my mouth should hear the word of the gospel, and believe.

vs 8. And God, which knoweth the hearts, bare them witness, giving them the Holy Ghost, even as [he did] unto us;

Vs 14; Simeon hath declared how God at the first did visit the Gentiles, to take out of them a people for his name.

VS 26 starts a relatively new thought about how to recognize all those who would believe unto salvation. vs 32 confirms this idea of all people have been counted as disobedient so that God can have mercy on individuals from ALL nations of people.

Mic 5:2 But you, Bethlehem Ephrathah,
though you are small among the clans of Judah,
out of you will come for me
one who will be ruler over Israel,
whose origins are from of old,
from ancient times.

Mic 5:3Therefore Israel will be abandoned
until the time when she who is in labor gives birth
and the rest of his brothers return
to join the Israelites.

Mic 5:4 He will stand and shepherd his flock
in the strength of the Lord,
in the majesty of the name of the Lord his God.
And they will live securely, for then his greatness
will reach to the ends of the earth.
Mic 5:5And he will be their peace.

Hsa 6:1 Come, let us return to the Lord.
He has torn us to pieces
but he will heal us;
he has injured us
but he will bind up our wounds.
Hsa 6:2After two days he will revive us;
on the third day he will restore us,
that we may live in his presence.

Zec 1:14 Then the angel who was speaking to me said, Proclaim this word: This is what the Lord Almighty says: I am very jealous for Jerusalem and Zion,
Zec 1:15 but I am very angry with the nations that feel secure. I was only a little angry, but they added to the calamity.
Zec 1:16 Therefore, this is what the Lord says: I will return to Jerusalem with mercy, and there my house will be rebuilt. And the measuring line will be stretched out over Jerusalem, declares the Lord Almighty.
Zec 1:17 Proclaim further: This is what the Lord Almighty says: My towns will again overflow with prosperity, and the Lord will again comfort Zion and choose Jerusalem. 

Eze 39:22 From that day forward the house of Israel will know that I am the LORD their God.
Eze 39:23 And the nations will know that the people of Israel went into exile for their sin, because they were unfaithful to me. So I hid my face from them and handed them over to their enemies, and they all fell by the sword.
Eze 39:24 I dealt with them according to their uncleanness and their offenses, and I hid my face from them.
Eze 39:25 Therefore this is what the Sovereign LORD says: I will now bring Jacob back from captivityand will have compassion on all the people of Israel, and I will be zealous for my holy name.
Eze 39:26 They will forget their shame and all the unfaithfulness they showed toward me when they lived in safety in their land with no one to make them afraid.
Eze 39:27 When I have brought them back from the nations and have gathered them from the countries of their enemies, I will show myself holy through them in the sight of many nations.
Eze 39:28 Then they will know that I am the LORD their God, for though I sent them into exile among the nations, I will gather them to their own land, not leaving any behind.
Eze 39:29 I will no longer hide my face from them, for I will pour out my Spirit on the house of Israel, declares the Sovereign LORD.

There are so many scriptures that speak of Israel being brought back, that it's incredible. Even the disciples knew that Israel would be brought back:

Act 1:6 So when they met together, they asked him, Lord, are you at this time going to restore the kingdom to Israel?

Isa 2:1 This is what Isaiah son of Amoz saw concerning Judah and Jerusalem:

Isa 2:2 In the last days

the mountain of the Lord's temple will be established
as chief among the mountains;
it will be raised above the hills,
and all nations will stream to it.

Isa 2:3 Many peoples will come and say,

Come, let us go up to the mountain of the Lord,
to the house of the God of Jacob.
He will teach us his ways,
so that we may walk in his paths.
The law will go out from Zion,
the word of the Lord from Jerusalem.

Zec 8:14 This is what the Lord Almighty says: Just as I had determined to bring disaster upon you and showed no pity when your fathers angered me, says the Lord Almighty,
Zec 8:15so now I have determined to do good again to Jerusalem and Judah. Do not be afraid.
Zec 8:16These are the things you are to do: Speak the truth to each other, and render true and sound judgment in your courts;
Zec 8:17do not plot evil against your neighbor, and do not love to swear falsely. I hate all this, declares the Lord.
Zec 8:18 Again the word of the Lord Almighty came to me.
Zec 8:19 This is what the Lord Almighty says: The fasts of the fourth, fifth, seventh and tenth months will become joyful and glad occasions and happy festivals for Judah. Therefore love truth and peace.
Zec 8:20 This is what the Lord Almighty says: Many peoples and the inhabitants of many cities will yet come,
Zec 8:21 and the inhabitants of one city will go to another and say, Let us go at once to entreat the Lord and seek the Lord Almighty. I myself am going.
Zec 8:22 And many peoples and powerful nations will come to Jerusalem to seek the Lord Almighty and to entreat him.
Zec 8:23 This is what the Lord Almighty says: In those days ten men from all languages and nations will take firm hold of one Jew by the hem of his robe and say, Let us go with you, because we have heard that God is with you.

Jesus will reign from Jerusalem in the Millennium. Israel will be raised up. The point is that they will see Jesus and know that they have been mistaken. They will know their Savior and they will follow Him. God will forgive them and pour out His Spirit on them (Ezek 39/Joel 2).

LittleLambofJesus · Sep 9, 2008

Please notice that the tense of the word indicates that which has been filled or is being filled. The tense of the words "be coming in" is in the 2nd aorist, which is without past/present/future, but rather a continual state. So the phrase could read, untill the filling of the nations be coming in.

CORRECTOMUNDO!!!
There is only one place that form of the greek word is used in Revelation and that is Reve 21:27. Never noticed that before

http://www.scripture4all.org/

eiselqh <1525> (5632) Used 9 times. 1 time in Revelation

Romans 11:25 For not I am willing ye to being ignorant brothers of the mystery, this, that no ye may be beside yourselves wise. That a hardening from part to-the Israel has become until which the filling/plhrwma <4138> of-the Nations may be entering/eiselqh <1525> (5632); [Mark 3:5, Ephesians 4:18]

Reve 21:27 And not no may be entering/eiselqh <1525> (5632) into Her, every contaminating-thing and one doing an abomination and falsehood, except the ones having been written in the scrollet of the life of the Lamb-kin

1525. eiserchomai ice-er'-khom-ahee from 1519 and 2064; to enter (literally or figuratively):--X arise, come (in, into), enter in(-to), go in (through).

LittleLambofJesus · Sep 9, 2008

http://www.blueletterbible.org/cgi-bin/tools/printer-friendly.pl?book=Zec&chapter=8&version=NIV#

Zec 8:22 And many peoples and powerful nations will come to Jerusalem to seek the Lord Almighty and to entreat him.
Zec 8:23 This is what the Lord Almighty says: In those days ten men from all languages and nations will take firm hold of one Jew by the hem of his robe and say, Let us go with you, because we have heard that God is with you.

Hi Jen. I believe that is already fulfilled in JESUS for the Jews and all Israelites. The Jews cannot lead us to JESUS I don't think. :wave:

Zechariah 8:23 Thus sayeth YHWH-of Hosts: in-Days, those, which they-shall-take-firm-hold a-hem/wing, Ten Mortals/582 'enowsh, from-all Tongues-of the-Nations.
And-They-take-fast/hold in-hem-of a-Man/0376 'iysh, a-Judean/Y@huwdiy, to-say 'We-are-going with-Thee that We-hear Elohiym with-Thee'. [Mark 6:56]

Mark 6:56 And the-where ever He into-journeyed into villages, the cities, the fields/hamlets, in the market-places, they place the ones being sick and they beside-called Him that if-even the hang-foot of the garment of Him they should be touching, and as manysoever as touch of Him/it, were saved [Zech 8:23]

Notrash · Sep 9, 2008

Here's why:

Rom 11:25 I do not want you to be ignorant of this mystery, brothers, so that you may not be conceited: Israel has experienced a hardening in part until the full number of the Gentiles has come in.

If Israel is hardened "in part", that means that some come in with the Gentiles and some do not.

I disagree; I think it means that some of yet unbelieving Israelites in 60 AD had been hardened and set aside until the Holy Spirit filling of the gentiles beginnign with Cornelius was coming in. Then the elect of that group of Israelites which was still unbelieving up to that point would recongnize the faith and fruits of the Spirit of the believing Israelites and through jealousy of them come to faith in Chirst through His election.

And then it goes on to say:

Rom 11:26 And so all Israel will be saved, as it is written:

“The deliverer will come from Zion;
he will turn godlessness away from Jacob.
Rom 11:27 And this is my covenant with them
when I take away their sins.”

Rom 11:28 As far as the gospel is concerned, they are enemies on your account; but as far as election is concerned, they are loved on account of the patriarchs,
Rom 11:29for God's gifts and his call are irrevocable.

Rom 11:23 And if they do not persist in unbelief, they will be grafted in, for God is able to graft them in again.

When Jesus comes, they will realize what they did and Jesus will:

Where is there any future idea of "when Jesus comes" All the discussion Paul has is pertaining to the group of people living in 60 AD.

http://www.blueletterbible.org/cgi-bin/tools/printer-friendly.pl?book=Rom&chapter=11&version=NIV#

Rom 11:26 And so all Israel will be saved, as it is written:

“The deliverer will come from Zion;
he will turn godlessness away from Jacob.
Rom 11:27 And this is my covenant with them
when I take away their sins.”

One step at a time. Finish going through the questions I asked. Offer counter answers to the ones I gave that you dont' agree with.

You did not answer the question as to what " and so" means.

You did not address the fact that vs 30-32 sums up most of the chapter and that those parts refer to the then present tense time period of 60 AD, not after 'gentiles have come in'.

If you would, simply respond and deal with one question and idea at a time please. It's really not that long.

You have pulled the "in part" out of the context of what Paul was referring to in the previous several verses. Namely that part of to -be Israel in 60 AD was blinded to the Gospel until the filling of the Holy Spirit came upon the individuals who where elect in the nations. Then some of those who were elect of Israel who had been hardened up till that point would become jealous of the blessing of the Holy Spirit on other peoples, and come to consider Christ's claims and come to faith in Him. There is nothing mentioned of coming to faith after the nations are done coming to Christ. That is a foreign idea to the text.

In the summary verses, Paul says that

LittleLambofJesus · Sep 9, 2008

Notrash said:
One step at a time. Finish going through the questions I asked. Offer counter answers to the ones I gave that you dont' agree with.

You did not answer the question as to what " and so" means.

You did not address the fact that vs 30-32 sums up most of the chapter and that those parts refer to the then present tense time period of 60 AD, not after 'gentiles have come in'.

If you would, simply respond and deal with one question and idea at a time please. It's really not that long.

You have pulled the "in part" out of the context of what Paul was referring to in the previous several verses. Namely that part of to -be Israel in 60 AD was blinded to the Gospel until the filling of the Holy Spirit came upon the individuals who where elect in the nations. Then some of those who were elect of Israel who had been hardened up till that point would become jealous of the blessing of the Holy Spirit on other peoples, and come to consider Christ's claims and come to faith in Him. There is nothing mentioned of coming to faith after the nations are done coming to Christ. That is a foreign idea to the text.

Greetings. I would say Paul was mainly referring to the corrupt murderous Priesthood/Judean Rulers not the common Judeans or non-Judean Israelites.

Mark 3:5 And looking about them with wrath, together-sorrowing on the hardness of their heart, He is saying to the man, "Stretch forth thy hand"!. And he stretches out it and his hand was restored as the other.
6 And the Pharisees went forth, and straightway took counsel with the Herodians against Him, how Him they might be destroying.

Ephesians 4:18 Having been darkened the understanding, being alienated of the life of the God, thru the ignorance the being in them, thru the hardening of their heart;

Brain Damage · Sep 9, 2008

Big Mouth Nana said:
Well BD, you know where I have stood for a long time on this, and I haven't changed my stance one iota in 5 years

Well maybe I can give you something to think about..

1Pe 5:13 -The church that is at Babylon, elected together with you, saluteth you; and so doth Marcus my son.

When Peter wrote this letter , he was neither in Iraq nor America.

Your turn...

Notrash · Sep 9, 2008

LittleLambofJesus said:
Greetings. I would say Paul was mainly referring to the corrupt murderous Priesthood/Judean Rulers not the common Judeans or non-Judean Israelites.

Mark 3:5 And looking about them with wrath, together-sorrowing on the hardness of their heart, He is saying to the man, "Stretch forth thy hand"!. And he stretches out it and his hand was restored as the other.
6 And the Pharisees went forth, and straightway took counsel with the Herodians against Him, how Him they might be destroying.

Ephesians 4:18 Having been darkened the understanding, being alienated of the life of the God, thru the ignorance the being in them, thru the hardening of their heart;

Although I see the connection in Mark, I disagree. I think It is the general hardness and disbelief of some of the Israelites who would could now yet come to trust Christ through the mercy and testimony of individuals who had and were receiving the filling of the Holy Spirit in the cities of the Roman Empire (and in Israel also).

From you last post, It seems that your connecting the times of the gentiles in the olivet discourse and the 'fullness of the nations" of Romans 11. There may actually be a dual meaning intended by this "fullness of the gentiles". However, Roman 11, and the context of Romans 9-11 and especially in relation to Romans 10:19 I think he is talking of the spritiual fullness that was coming upon individuals within the roman empire. Some scattered israelites and jews yet elect would come to believe in Christ through the mercy of gentile Christians preaching Christ's words. Pleroma again was already happening and I believe it refers to an individual filling, just as it does most other places.

gwynedd1 · Sep 9, 2008

HisdaughterJen said:
You know, I really do see your point...there are scriptures that correlate Jerusalem to Mystery Babylon. The description in Rev 18 and Matt 23 is a very strong connection in my own mind.

Rev 18:24 In her was found the blood of prophets and of the saints,
and of all who have been killed on the earth.

Compare to:

Mat 23:34 Therefore I am sending you prophets and wise men and teachers. Some of them you will kill and crucify; others you will flog in your synagogues and pursue from town to town.
Mat 23:35 And so upon you will come all the righteous blood that has been shed on earth, from the blood of righteous Abel to the blood of Zechariah son of Berekiah, whom you murdered between the temple and the altar.
Mat 23:36 I tell you the truth, all this will come upon this generation. (70AD)
Mat 23:37 O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, you who kill the prophets and stone those sent to you, how often I have longed to gather your children together, as a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, but you were not willing.
Mat 23:38 Look, your house is left to you desolate.

Hello HisdaughterJen,

It has probably been about a year before I made this assertion myself. Perhaps you even recall a theory I had on the world financial system. I had Jerusalem as a suspect but never as such a strong case. I had not even bothered with end times theory for more than 10 years because what was in my mind, its failure. So in recent year I am trying to make sense out of what I was taught even as a child.

Also as you point out specifically but others realize in general the apocalyptic sections of the synoptic Gospels like Matthew 24 and Luke 21 do parallel Revelation. Incidentally the Gospel of John lacked this and seems to have made an entire book out of it.

BUT, if Revelation 17 & 18 is speaking of Jerusalem, then we should be in the New Heavens, New Earth by now....in fact, we should have been there since about 1070. Christ should have been ruling and reigning from the temple in Jerusalem from about 70-1070 which should've been relatively peaceful.

Mystery Babylon, therefore, cannot be Jerusalem. It has to be the city that scattered Israel and destroyed Jerusalem just like Babylon did. Jerusalem was rebellious before Babylon came against them and they were rebellious before Rome came against them.

You are right that Jesus rules from the temple in Jerusalem but Hebrews makes it clear it cannot be on Earth. So I do not look for the New Jerusalem where the old one is. Jerusalem seems one of the worst places to be. Its been fought over for thousands of years with no end in sight. I wonder, are we seeing Malachi come true , making good on a curse?

Malachi 4

5"Behold, I am going to send you (K)Elijah the prophet before the coming of the great and terrible day of the LORD.
6"He will (L)restore the hearts of the fathers to their children and the hearts of the children to their fathers, so that I will not come and (M)smite the land with a curse."

Hebrews 8

1Now the main point in what has been said is this: we have such a (A)high priest, who has taken His seat at (B)the right hand of the throne of the (C)Majesty in the heavens, 2a (D)minister in the sanctuary and in the (E)true tabernacle, which the Lord (F)pitched, not man.
3For every (G)high priest is appointed (H)to offer both gifts and sacrifices; so it is necessary that this high priest also have something to offer.
4Now if He were on earth, He would not be a priest at all, since there are those who (I)offer the gifts according to the Law;

Verse 4 even states if Christ were here he would not even be a priest!

Be aware that you see that Bible points to Jerusalem but you observations do not. I believe the New Heavens and New Earth along with the New Jerusalem cannot exist on Earth.

Hebrews 11

8By faith (V)Abraham, when he was called, obeyed by going out to a place which he was to (W)receive for an inheritance; and he went out, not knowing where he was going. 9By faith he lived as an alien in (X)the land of promise, as in a foreign land, (Y)dwelling in tents with Isaac and Jacob, (Z)fellow heirs of the same promise;
10for he was looking for (AA)the city which has (AB)foundations, (AC)whose architect and builder is God.

...

15And indeed if they had been thinking of that country from which they went out, (AL)they would have had opportunity to return. 16But as it is, they desire a better country, that is, a (AM)heavenly one Therefore (AN)God is not ashamed to be (AO)called their God; for (AP)He has prepared a city for them.

Hebrews 12

22But (AR)you have come to Mount Zion and to (AS)the city of (AT)the living God, (AU)the heavenly Jerusalem, and to (AV)myriads of angels,
23to the general assembly and (AW)church of the firstborn who (AX)are enrolled in heaven, and to God, (AY)the Judge of all, and to the (AZ)spirits of the righteous made perfect,
24and to Jesus, the (BA)mediator of a new covenant, and to the (BB)sprinkled blood, which speaks better than (BC)the blood of Abel.

Jesus said this in John

John 13

33"(AU)Little children, I am with you (AV)a little while longer (AW)You will seek Me; and as I said to the Jews, now I also say to you, 'Where I am going, you cannot come.'
34"A (AX)new commandment I give to you, (AY)that you love one another, (AZ)even as I have loved you, that you also love one another.
35"(BA)By this all men will know that you are My disciples, if you have love for one another."
36Simon Peter said to Him, "Lord, where are You going?" Jesus answered, "(BB)Where I go, you cannot follow Me now; but (BC)you will follow later."

John 14

2"In My Father's house are many dwelling places; if it were not so, I would have told you; for (B)I go to prepare a place for you. 3"If I go and prepare a place for you, (C)I will come again and receive you to Myself, that (D)where I am, there you may be also.

In God 's house there are many mansions. However Jesus needed to prepare the place which I believe was done after the cross.

Jesus said this as directly as can be stated. No one will worship anyone in Jerusalem.

21Jesus said to her, "Woman, believe Me, (Y)an hour is coming when (Z)neither in this mountain nor in Jerusalem will you worship the Father.

gwynedd1 · Sep 9, 2008

Big Mouth Nana said:
Hello gwynedd. Because the interpretation I don't agree with. I see this a lot different then some do. This verse can be taken two ways, but I only see it one way. Where does this verse say that the harlot is sitting? Look at it closely. I don't see that verse as the waters being people, multitudes, and nations and tongues. The verse says, And he saith unto me, The waters which thou sawest, where the harlot sitteth, are peoples, and multitudes, and nations, and tongues. In other words, the harlot is sitting on the waters. This is a place that is surrounded by waters, and a melting pot of different nationalities just like the USA. Some believe that it is the United Nations in New York City that does sit on many waters since it is part of the USA. Every nation is represented at the UN.

Hello Big Mouth Nana,

The UN is certainly comparable to the interpretation in which case you have NYC. That is at least consistent since we are not discussing water physically.
Now of course Jerusalem sat within the largest political entity I think known to date. The Roman empire was certainly many nations and peoples.
Now, NYC fails since it or the US was not around to kill the prophets. This means that the US or NYC needs to be the head of something more enduring like a particular king for the moment. Heck, we even have a big statue of a women holding a torch. The big problem is besides having much stronger evidence elsewhere I need to accept the interpretive section of a vision as yet more imagery and it is very speculative and essentially lives on its own.
Exodus 28 was simply the last straw or perhaps even a brick. The harlot is clearly a mockery of the Aaronic priesthood to me.

Big Mouth Nana · Sep 9, 2008

Brain Damage said:
Well maybe I can give you something to think about..

1Pe 5:13 -The church that is at Babylon, elected together with you, saluteth you; and so doth Marcus my son.

When Peter wrote this letter , he was neither in Iraq nor America.

Your turn...

Okay

. BD, Babylon is mentioned in the bible all of the way from 2 Kings through Revelation. This "Mystery Babylon" in Rev 17 & 18 is a last days Babylon. It is an evil religious/commercial system that is present in the last days. It was called Mesopotamia in the OT also..Iraq now. God destroyed one Babylon in the OT in Jer chapter 51 and said that this one would never rise again. It hasn't as I have seen Archeology pictures of the ruins. It doesn't surprise me that Babylon is mentioned in 1 Pet 5:13.

LittleLambofJesus · Sep 9, 2008

Big Mouth Nana said:
Okay . BD, Babylon is mentioned in the bible all of the way from 2 Kings through Revelation. This "Mystery Babylon" in Rev 17 & 18 is a last days Babylon. It is an evil religious/commercial system that is present in the last days. It was called Mesopotamia in the OT also..Iraq now. God destroyed one Babylon in the OT in Jer chapter 51 and said that this one would never rise again. It hasn't as I have seen Archeology pictures of the ruins. It doesn't surprise me that Babylon is mentioned in 1 Pet 5:13.

Greetings BMN. I could probably use the book of Isaiah alone for Revelation and that book is also the most quoted book in the NT/NC. JESUS quoted from it concerning Him being the fulfillment of Isaiah [chapt 61/Luke 4]

I have a study just on Isaiah 5 and Revelation and note the Tower in Genesis 11 and the Vineyard/Grapes in Isaiah 5 and who does YHWH refer to in that vs 3 :clap:

Genesis 11:4 And they are saying, "grant thou!, we shall build for us a City and a Tower/04026 migdal and top of it in heavens and we shall make for us a name, lest we are scattering over faces/surfaces all of the land.

Isaiah 5:1 I shall sing please! for friend/beloved of me a song of friend/beloved of me for a vineyard of him vineyard he was to friend/beloved of me in horn to son of oil. 2 And He is cultivating and throwing out stones and He is planting it yellow-muscat and he is building a Tower/04026 migdal in midst of it and moreover a wine-press he hewed and he is expecting to yield of Grapes, but it is yielding stinking-fruit 3 And now one dwelling of Jerusalem and man of Judah judge ye please! between Me and between My vineyard.

Reve 14:18 And another messenger came out of the altar having authority upon the fire, and he sounds a cry, great, to the one having the sickle, the sharp/keen, saying: "Send! of thee the sickle, the sharp, and pick! the clusters of the grapevine of the land that mellow/ripe the grapes of her.

Big Mouth Nana · Sep 9, 2008

gwynedd1 said:
Hello Big Mouth Nana,

The UN is certainly comparable to the interpretation in which case you have NYC. That is at least consistent since we are not discussing water physically.
Now of course Jerusalem sat within the largest political entity I think known to date. The Roman empire was certainly many nations and peoples.
Now, NYC fails since it or the US was not around to kill the prophets. This means that the US or NYC needs to be the head of something more enduring like a particular king for the moment. Heck, we even have a big statue of a women holding a torch. The big problem is besides having much stronger evidence elsewhere I need to accept the interpretive section of a vision as yet more imagery and it is very speculative and essentially lives on its own.
Exodus 28 was simply the last straw or perhaps even a brick. The harlot is clearly a mockery of the Aaronic priesthood to me.

Good evening gwynedd. Interesting that you should mention the Roman Empire. In a study of the comparisons of the Roman Empire and the USA, they are almost identical. Another reason that I believe Babylon is America. This nation is run by governmental greed. The Senators of the Roman Empire were more interested in advancing their own positions and monetary stability while the common citizens starved to death. Nero said, lets us tax, and tax again. If you ever get time, check the comparisons...mind blowing!! Even some of the programs that we have today sound like those during the Roman Empire that certain Emperors advanced.
I do believe that certain aspects of Mystery Babylon are still a mystery, but will be made known as time passes. Unfortunately, we do not know everything yet.

Notrash · Sep 10, 2008

LittleLambofJesus said:
AHHH. Gotta love someone who studies the Greek.
The same exact form of the greek word "to fill" used in Luke 21:24 is also used in reve 6:11 and still trying to figure out the significance of it. Interesting though.

Luke 21:24 "And they shall be falling by mouth of sword, and they shall be being led captive into all the Nations. And Jerusalem shall be being trampled by nations until which may be being filled/plhrw-qwsin <4137> (5686) times of Nations/eqnwn <1484> [Ezekiel 30:1/Daniel 12/Revelation 11:2/ 13:10]

Romans 11:25 For not I am willing ye to being ignorant brothers of the mystery, this, that no ye may be beside yourselves wise. That a hardening from part to-the Israel has become until which the filling/plhrw-ma <4138> of-the Nations/eqnwn <1484> may be entering; [Mark 3:5, Ephesians 4:18]

Reve 6:11 And was given to them each a white robe and it was declared to them that they should be resting still little time till should be being filled/plhrw-qwsin <4137> (5686) also the fellow bondservants of them and the brothers of them the ones being about to be being killed as even they.

Interesting, Although you say it is the exact form of the word, the tense or something is different. I think Luke 24 is talking of the filling of Jerusalem and Judea with Roman soldiers until they have finished trampling it down.

Rev 6 is I think without checking talking about the persecution and killing of the saints under Nero. As they were being killed for their testimony, they would be given a white robe and wait until the end of the persecustion of Nero. (my thoughts) For they loved not their lives till the death.

Romans 11, "plerorma" 4138 is a word which almost always seems to refer to completeness and filling with Christ. Thus the 'fullness' of the Gentiles again is referring to the filling of the Spirit of Christ to individuals in the nations. Again, this is referring back to Romans 10:19 when Paul says that at this time, Israel would be made jealous and angered by who they considered not a people (of God) and a foolish nation.

Paul is explaining in most of chapter 11 the implications of the groundwork that he laid in chs 9 and 10. One of those implicatons (which occupies most of ch 11) is that this prophecy in Deut 32 that Paul quotes in 10:19 is being fulfilled by the spiritual filling of individuals of the nations so that some of remaining unbelieving Israel can be made Jealous. He even says that part of what drives him to continue preaching to the nations is that he hopes some of his own people will become jealous unto salvation.

Rom 11:11 I say then, they did not stumble so as to fall, did they? May it never be! But by their transgression salvation {has come} to the Gentiles, to make them jealous.
Rom 11:12 Now if their transgression is riches for the world and their failure is riches for the Gentiles, how much more will their fulfillment be!
Rom 11:13 But I am speaking to you who are Gentiles. Inasmuch then as I am an apostle of Gentiles, I magnify my ministry,
Rom 11:14 if somehow I might move to jealousy (10:19) my fellow countrymen and save some of them.
Rom 11:15 For if their rejection is the reconciliation of the world, what will {their} acceptance be but life from the dead?

Here, pleroma is translated 'fulfillment'. It comparers with spiritual riches for the world and Gentiles. 11:15 includes the idea of "life from the dead". That's why I say Romans 11 isn't an eschatological section, especially since the summary sentences in 11:30-32 are then present tense. Modern translations falsy translate this "full number". Even in the rev 6 application, it seems it could be referring to the full time of the persecution of the saints, (under nero?) rather than a number of those killed during that time. (what do you think)?

Brain Damage · Sep 10, 2008

Big Mouth Nana said:
Okay . BD, Babylon is mentioned in the bible all of the way from 2 Kings through Revelation. This "Mystery Babylon" in Rev 17 & 18 is a last days Babylon. It is an evil religious/commercial system that is present in the last days. It was called Mesopotamia in the OT also..Iraq now. God destroyed one Babylon in the OT in Jer chapter 51 and said that this one would never rise again. It hasn't as I have seen Archeology pictures of the ruins. It doesn't surprise me that Babylon is mentioned in 1 Pet 5:13.

It is beleived that Peter code named the place of his residents "Babylon" because of persecution , and we also know that Peter was an apostle to the circumcised , so that leaves him where?.....

Big Mouth Nana · Sep 10, 2008

Brain Damage said:
It is beleived that Peter code named the place of his residents "Babylon" because of persecution , and we also know that Peter was an apostle to the circumcised , so that leaves him where?.....

Deceased and with Christ ^_^

I don't know what you are getting at? Clarify pleazzz. Just because Peter mentions Babylon has nothing to do with the Babylon of the end times. There have been Babylonian systems in place since 2nd Kings. Also scripture bares out that this Babylon is a chief importer/exporter, otherwise those in these ships wouldn't be wailing. Who is going to wail over Jerusalem? Most hate her even now except the US and a few other nations. Plain and simple, Jerusalem doesn't deal in these commodities listed. We haven't seen biblical type persecution in this nation yet, but it's coming. Your turn

LittleLambofJesus · Sep 10, 2008

Big Mouth Nana said:
Deceased and with Christ I don't know what you are getting at? Clarify pleazzz. Just because Peter mentions Babylon has nothing to do with the Babylon of the end times. There have been Babylonian systems in place since 2nd Kings. Also scripture bares out that this Babylon is a chief importer/exporter, otherwise those in these ships wouldn't be wailing. Who is going to wail over Jerusalem? Most hate her even now except the US and a few other nations. Plain and simple, Jerusalem doesn't deal in these commodities listed. We haven't seen biblical type persecution in this nation yet, but it's coming. Your turn

Greetings BMN. I am now doing a study on Isaiah 5 and Matt21/Reve 14.
What would this "Tower" be symbolizing in Matt 21:33? I am beginning to be of the view it could represent the OC Santuary of the Temple in the NT/NC.

Genesis 11:4 And they are saying, "grant thou!, we shall build for us a City and a Tower/04026 migdal and top of it in heavens and we shall make for us a name, lest we are scattering over faces/surfaces all of the land.

Matt 21:33 Another parable hear ye! A certain Man was home-owner who-any plants a vineyard, and a barrier/fence to it places-about, and excavates in it a winepress/lhnon <3025> and builds a Tower and granted it to Farmers and he travels. [Isaiah 5:1-3/Reve 14:20]

John 2:20 Say then the Judeans: "Forty and six to-years was built the Santuary/naoV <3485>, this, and thou in three days shall be rousing him"?

Big Mouth Nana · Sep 10, 2008

LittleLambofJesus said:
Greetings BMN. I am now doing a study on Isaiah 5 and Matt21/Reve 14.
What would this "Tower" be symbolizing in Matt 21:33? I am beginning to be of the view it could represent the OC Santuary of the Temple in the NT/NC.

Genesis 11:4 And they are saying, "grant thou!, we shall build for us a City and a Tower/04026 migdal and top of it in heavens and we shall make for us a name, lest we are scattering over faces/surfaces all of the land.

Matt 21:33 Another parable hear ye! A certain Man was home-owner who-any plants a vineyard, and a barrier/fence to it places-about, and excavates in it a winepress/lhnon <3025> and builds a Tower and granted it to Farmers and he travels. [Isaiah 5:1-3/Reve 14:20]

John 2:20 Say then the Judeans: "Forty and six to-years was built the Santuary/naoV <3485>, this, and thou in three days shall be rousing him"?

In the Amplified bible it refers to this tower as a watchtower. You notice that it has a hedge built around it also? That is like a barrier. This tower represents a structure to keep watch from. IMO it correlates with us watching for Christs return so that the thief doesn't take us by surprise. In this case, the thieves were the tenants.

HisdaughterJen · Sep 10, 2008

Scriptural PROOF that Mystery Babylon is the ROMAN EMPIRE (and what remains of it today):

Isa 47:5 “Sit in silence, go into darkness,
Daughter of the Babylonians;
no more will you be called
queen of kingdoms.
Isa 47:6 I was angry with my people
and desecrated my inheritance;
I gave them into your hand,
and you showed them no mercy.
Even on the aged
you laid a very heavy yoke.
Isa 47:7 You said, ‘I will continue forever—
the eternal queen!’
But you did not consider these things
or reflect on what might happen.

Isa 47:8 “Now then, listen, you wanton creature,
lounging in your security
and saying to yourself,
‘I am, and there is none besides me.
I will never be a widow
or suffer the loss of children.’

This is not talking about actual Babylon because she is referred to as the DAUGHTER of Babylon.

Into whose hand did God give His people? Babylon (which we have already noted that this passage is NOT talking about) and ROME!

The Daughter of Babylon is the ROMAN EMPIRE which has never really gone away with its emperors and popes, popes and emperors.

Zec 2:6 “Come! Come! Flee from the land of the north,” declares the Lord, “for I have scattered you to the four winds of heaven,” declares the Lord.
Zec 2:7 “Come, O Zion! Escape, you who live in the Daughter of Babylon!”

Compare the above to:

Rev 18:4 Then I heard another voice from heaven say:

“Come out of her, my people,
so that you will not share in her sins,
so that you will not receive any of her plagues;
Rev 18:5 for her sins are piled up to heaven,
and God has remembered her crimes.
Rev 18:6 Give back to her as she has given;
pay her back double for what she has done.
Mix her a double portion from her own cup.
Rev 18:7 Give her as much torture and grief
as the glory and luxury she gave herself.
In her heart she boasts,
‘I sit as queen; I am not a widow,
and I will never mourn.’

Mystery Babylon/the Daughter of Babylon is alive and well and continues to "sit on many waters":

Rev 17:15 Then the angel said to me, “The waters you saw, where the prostitute sits, are peoples, multitudes, nations and languages.

Mystery Babylon exercises SPIRITUAL control over many peoples, multitudes, nations and languages as well as influences governments, even today....as she has set herself up as "God's Oracle".

What entity trades with the merchants of the earth in commodities including the bodies and souls of men over the past nearly 2000 years?

Rev 18:11 “The merchants of the earth will weep and mourn over her because no one buys their cargoes any more–
Rev 18:12 cargoes of gold, silver, precious stones and pearls; fine linen, purple, silk and scarlet cloth; every sort of citron wood, and articles of every kind made of ivory, costly wood, bronze, iron and marble;
Rev 18:13 cargoes of cinnamon and spice, of incense, myrrh and frankincense, of wine and olive oil, of fine flour and wheat; cattle and sheep; horses and carriages; and bodies and souls of men.

CindyisHis · Sep 11, 2008

gwynedd1 said:
Hello CindyisHis,

I believe the entire book of Revelation is the judgment of Jerusalem and in particular its religious authority. Since you have not rejected it outright perhaps there is some value in other details?
However I don' t understand why you think Exodus 28 for example is not significant let alone compelling.

Exodus 28
So we know this is the priestly garments.

Exodus 28

Here we have the associated colors of these garments. This was also recorded in Josephus to have these on the temple. The Ephod is a breastplate of precious stones. The comparison is very striking. What else in the Bible can fit this description? If you are not looking in the scriptures where are you looking? What in the "world system" may be identified with purple, scarlet and gold?

Revelation 17

Hello g. I apologize for not being able to be here much due to things IRL. I will comment on the colors.

If you notice, the color blue is not mentioned in Rev. 17 as it is in Ex. 25. The color blue represents deity. Blue is missing from Babylon because God is not in her.

The Lord has not forsaken His people Israel. Yes, we're in the time of the Gentiles coming in, but Israel will forever remain His.

Rev-18 and that great city Babylon

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