Are there any post-tribbers who would like to refute this..?

For onwingsaseagles:
You are not willing to address the simple issue at hand but are happy to be nasty in your posts.

When Jesus returns, from whose wedding is it?

garry2 said:

For onwingsaseagles:
You are not willing to address the simple issue at hand but are happy to be nasty in your posts.

When Jesus returns, from whose wedding is it?

Click to expand...

The Catholics say that already happened and they are now in the millenium and it is after that when Jesus returns.

what I am saying is that we are both at the same time...we are servants of God, anxious and waiting for Him to Come and when He does Come we are going to hopefully be one of the 5 that are the bride of Christ....

Markea said:

We are both WHAT at the same time...?



If we're members of the body of Christ, which is the church of God, then we would go into the wedding with Christ... as the wise virgins.

That's before the wedding.

Revelation 12 teaches us that the remnant of Israel will go THROUGH the tribulation and that they will be provided a place in the wilderness for 1260 days... This aligns with Matt 24 and it aligns with Daniel 12... AND that's why we can see the scriptures speak of Christ coming before the wedding and then after the wedding as Rev 19 affirms.

Christ comes before the wedding for His church and He comes after the wedding to deliver Israel.

Click to expand...

Yes, more verses in Rev. 19 showing that Christ return to earth is after the wedding, which takes place in Heaven.

Revelation 19
7 Let us be glad and rejoice, and give honour to him: for the marriage of the Lamb is come, and his wife hath made herself ready.

The marriage takes place in Heaven before Christ returns to earth.

8 And to her was granted that she should be arrayed in fine linen, clean and white: for the fine linen is the righteousness of saints.
9 And he saith unto me, Write, Blessed are they which are called unto the marriage supper of the Lamb. And he saith unto me, These are the true sayings of God.
10 And I fell at his feet to worship him. And he said unto me, See thou do it not: I am thy fellowservant, and of thy brethren that have the testimony of Jesus: worship God: for the testimony of Jesus is the spirit of prophecy.
11 And I saw heaven opened, and behold a white horse; and he that sat upon him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he doth judge and make war.
12 His eyes were as a flame of fire, and on his head were many crowns; and he had a name written, that no man knew, but he himself.
13 And he was clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and his name is called The Word of God.
14 And the armies which were in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean.

These armies are the Bride - the saints, that is plain from verse 8.

Markea posted in message #1:

Most post-tribbers deny that the Lord is coming two
times... once for the church of God and then again to
come with His saints to ruler over Israel and the
whole earth during the millennium.

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The Bible nowhere says that the Lord is coming two
times, once for the Church and then again to come
with His saints to rule the earth during the
millennium. The Bible nowhere refers to the future
"comings" (plural) of Jesus, but only to the one
future "coming" of Jesus: the second coming (Hebrews
9:28).

The rapture will simply be the Church being caught up
as high as the clouds to meet Jesus in the air on
His way down to the earth at His second coming
(1 Thessalonians 4:15-17). Nowhere does the Bible say
that the Church will be taken into the third heaven
at the rapture.

The rapture will be after the tribulation (Matthew
24:29-31, Mark 13:24-27). Jesus' coming to gather
together the Church (2 Thessalonians 2:1) must destroy
the Antichrist (2 Thessalonians 2:8). The Church will
have to suffer and die under the Antichrist
(Revelation 13:7-10, 14:12-13, 20:4). Nowhere does the
Bible ever teach a pre-tribulation rapture.

The one future coming of Jesus will be both for and
with the Church, and in two different ways. First,
Jesus will come with all those in the Church who have
died and gone to heaven (1 Thessalonians 4:14, 3:13),
and they will go down to their graves and their bodies
will be resurrected (1 Thessalonians 4:16b), and then
they and all those who survived the tribulation, who
are still "alive and remain" will be caught up
together to be with Jesus in the air (1 Thessalonians
4:17). So Jesus will come with the dead saints and for
the living saints at the same second coming.

But not to take them all into the third heaven, but to
judge them (Psalms 50:4-5, cf. Mark 13:27) and then
marry them (Revelation 19:7) in the sky before they
all mount white horses and descend back down from the
sky (the first heaven) with Jesus (Revelation 19:14)
to reign on the earth with Him during the millennium
(Revelation 20:4-6, 5:10, 2:26-29).

So this is the second way in which Jesus will come
both with and for the Church at the same second
coming: after He has come for the living saints, and
they (along with the resurrected saints) have been
judged and married in the sky, He will then come down
from the sky with the saints to the earth.

The Bible nowhere teaches two different future
comings, one only for the saints and then a later one
only with the saints. That's the invention of men.

Markea posted in message #1:

So here's the problem...

Matthew 25 speaks of the Lord coming for the wise
virgins who were ready to go into the wedding...

Luke 12 speaks of the Lord coming when He returns
from the wedding...

Clearly two separate events...

Click to expand...

Matthew 25:1-13 is referring to the same second coming
as Luke 12:36. Matthew 25:1-13 is addressing the same
Church as Luke 12:36. But both Matthew 25:1-13 and
Luke 12:36 are only parables; they are only trying to
give a sense of what the second coming will be "like",
and what the Church is to be "like" preceding that
second coming.

The Church is to be "like" servants waiting for their
master to come back from the wedding festivities that
follow a wedding and can go long into the night (Luke
12:36-38). The Church is to be "like" virgins waiting
for the bridegroom even though he may not come until
midnight (Matthew 25:5). The details of the parables
contradict, but they are only parables, so the details
don't matter, what matters is the consistent idea of
both parables: the Church must stay awake spiritually
until the second coming (Matthew 25:13, Luke 12:40).

Those who don't make it to the parable-wedding in
Matthew 25:1-13 are lost; the bridegroom denies that
he even knows them (Matthew 25:12, cf. 7:21-23), just
as those servants who aren't ready to open the door
for their master when he comes back, no matter how late
in the night, are lost; the master will come on them
like a thief (Luke 12:39) and destroy them (Matthew
24:50-51).

Matthew 25:1-13 is referring to the same coming of
Jesus that He had just finished saying won't happen
until after the tribulation (Matthew 24:29-31). Jesus
nowhere says that His coming will be before the
tribulation.

Matthew 25:1-13 is addressed to the same Church as
Matthew 24:9-31. There are no chapter breaks in the
Greek manuscripts: Matthew 24:9-25:13 is one single
teaching to one single Church: stay spiritually awake
for the second coming, which won't happen until after
midnight, after the tribulation.

The marriage of the Church to Jesus won't happen until
Revelation 19:7, after the tribulation of Revelation
chapters 6-18. The Church will go through the
tribulation (Revelation 13:7-10, 14:12-13, 20:4).
The rapture will be after the tribulation (Matthew
24:29-31; 2 Thessalonians 2:1-8).

The marriage feast won't happen until Revelation 19:8,
after the tribulation of Revelation chapters 6-18.
The marriage feast will be on the earth after the
second coming (Isaiah 25:6-9). Paul quotes from
Isaiah 25:8 in 1 Corinthians 15:54b, showing that
the earthly feast of Isaiah 25:6-9 will be connected
with the resurrection of the Church (Revelation
20:4-6) at the second coming (1 Corinthians 15:22-23,
Revelation 19).

Markea posted in message #39:

The teaching of Matt 22 also makes me think that the
marriage is IN HEAVEN... because it speaks of the
KING (who would represent the Father in this story)
who was wroth with a guest that did not have on a
wedding garment. The Father is not on earth...

Click to expand...

Matthew 22:1-13 is only a parable, which means that
we are not to get hung up on any of its details, but
focus on the message that the parable is trying to
convey: God allows all sorts of people to get saved,
but they can subsequently lose their salvation if
they fall into willful, unrepentant sin (Hebrews
10:26-29), so that they are not found wearing the
figurative wedding garment of righteousness
(Revelation 19:8).

If we try to latch onto every detail of Matthew
22:1-13, we will run into problems right away, for
we would have people making it into the Father's
house in heaven but then being subsequently cast out,
as if the Father didn't know who was in unrepentant
sin until they got all the way into heaven and were
already at the wedding. We would, in light of another
parable (Matthew 25:1-13), have both the wise and
foolish virgins making it into the wedding, and then
the foolish ones being subsequently cast out of the
wedding. We would have contradicting messages in two
different parables. That's why we can't latch onto the
details of the various parables: the details contradict
each other. So we have to take a step back and instead
look for the common message that all the parables are
trying to convey: we have to be ready and righteous
for Jesus' return.

Markea posted in message #39:

The OT story of Abraham sending the comforter to find
a bride for his son Isaac also makes me think that
the marriage is in HEAVEN... because at the end of
the journey... Isaac met her and took her into his
mother's tent... ie, the Jerusalem which is above is
the mother of us all...

Click to expand...

If we try to latch onto the details of the story of
Isaac and Rebekah as having to be a type for Jesus
and the Church, it doesn't work. For Rebekah was
brought from a far-away land to where Isaac was in
his own land, whereas Jesus at His second coming will
come Himself from a far-away land (heaven) to come
and be with the Church on the earth. Isaac took
Rebecca not into the Father's house (heaven), but the
house of his mother (earth). The house of his mother
can't be New Jerusalem in heaven, for his mother had
just died (Genesis 24:67), and New Jerusalem isn't
going to die. But we could say that the earth will
have suffered somewhat of a dying during the
tribulation.

---

Markea posted in message #54:

You're certainly wrong about Israel being the church...

Click to expand...

If Israel can't be the Church, how can Rebekah be the
Church? Rebekah is the mother of Israel (Jacob)
(Genesis 25:21-26, 32:28). Similarly with Matthew
chapters 24-25: in the pre-trib view, if Matthew 24
can't be the Church, how can Matthew 25 be the Church?
If Matthew 24 is Israel, how can Matthew 25 not be
Israel?

The Church is Israel (Revelation 21:9b,12b). All Jews
in the Church are Israel (Romans 11:1), and all
Gentiles in the Church have been grafted into the good
olive tree of Israel (Romans 11:24, cf. Jeremiah 11:16),
made fellowcitizens in Israel (Ephesians 2:12,19), and
made the seed of Abraham (Galatians 3:29). The entire
Church being Israel is necessary because the new
covenant/testament under which the Church is saved
(Matthew 26:28; 1 Corinthians 11:25; 2 Corinthians 3:6,
Hebrews 9:15) was made only with Israel (Jeremiah
31:31-34).

HisdaughterJen posted in message #40:

How is this scripture NOT proof that Jesus is taking
us to HEAVEN?

[John 14:1-3]

Click to expand...

In John 14:1-3, Jesus doesn't say that He is going to
take us into the third heaven. He says that He is
leaving to prepare a place for us in the Father's
house (John 14:2), which is New Jerusalem which is
now in the third heaven (Revelation 21:2-3). Then
Jesus says that His leaving to prepare a place for us
means that He's not done with us: He is going to come
back to us and receive us unto Himself where He will
be when He comes back (John 14:3), which will be in
the sky (1 Thessalonians 4:15-17).

At that point, He doesn't say (nor does any other
scripture say) that He is then going to take us into
the third heaven. Instead, we will be judged (Psalms
50:4-5, cf. Mark 13:27) and married (Revelation 19:7)
in the sky before we all mount white horses and
descend back down from the sky (the first heaven) with
Jesus (Revelation 19:14) to reign on the earth with
Him during the millennium (Revelation 20:4-6, 5:10,
2:26-29).

And even after the millennium and subsequent events
(Revelation 20:7-15), we won't be taken into the third
heaven, for God will create a new earth and New
Jerusalem will descend from heaven to the new earth
(Revelation 21:1-3), and it is there that we will live
forever in the place which Jesus prepared for us in
the Father's house (John 14:2).

HisdaughterJen posted in message #40:

[John 17:24]

Click to expand...

John 17:24 could refer to where we go now when we die:
into heaven to be with Jesus (2 Corinthians 5:8,
Philippians 1:21,23).

HisdaughterJen posted in message #40:

[Hebrews 11:16]

Click to expand...

Hebrews 11:16 refers to the New Jerusalem which we
go to when we die (Hebrews 12:22-23), and in which we
will live with God on the new earth (Revelation 21:1-3).

HisdaughterJen posted in message #40:

[Philippians 3:20-21]

Click to expand...

Our citizenship is in the New Jerusalem which is now
in heaven (Hebrews 12:22-23), but Philippians 3:20-21
doesn't say that Jesus is going to take us there when
He comes back to resurrect and change us into
immortality, for after we're resurrected we're going
to reign on the earth with Jesus (Revelation 20:4-6,
5:10, 2:26-29).

HisdaughterJen posted in message #42:

When is the Bride given her Bridal clothes? Seal #5,
Rev 6. Where is the Bride after that? Rev 7 says,
standing before the throne, which is in the New
Jerusalem according to Rev 22.

Click to expand...

The bridal clothes of Revelation 19:8 are figurative
of the righteousness that believers have now by faith
(Romans 3:22).

Seal #5 refers to some literal white robes which will
be given to the souls of the dead martyrs in heaven
(Revelation 6:9-11).

Revelation 7:9,14 refers to some literal white robes
which will be worn in heaven by that part of the
Church which will enter into the tribulation and then
die in the seal-events of Revelation 6.

HisdaughterJen posted in message #42:

We receive our salvation before the day of wrath.
(1 Thess 5:9, 1 Thess 1:10, 1 Peter 1:5)

Click to expand...

We already have received salvation (Romans 10:10;
2 Corinthians 6:2; 1 Peter 1:9), and so we cannot
be appointed to wrath (1 Thessalonians 5:9) during
the tribulation, even though we will go through the
tribulation.

Nothing requires that any of the seals (Revelation
6) or trumpets (Revelation chapters 8-9) of the
tribulation are God's wrath, or that any of the
subsequent suffering of the Church under the
Antichrist (Revelation 13:7-10, 14:12-13, 20:4)
will be God's wrath against the Church, or that any
of the subsequent vials of God's wrath (Revelation
16) will be directed against those in the Church who
will still be alive on the earth at that time, still
waiting for Jesus' coming as a thief (Revelation
16:15). The Church will go into protective chambers
on the earth during the vials of wrath (Isaiah 26:20);
it won't be appointed to wrath (1 Thessalonians 5:9).

---

HisdaughterJen posted in message #119:

The second coming is when the church is removed ...

Click to expand...

The Church will never be removed from the earth
(Proverbs 10:30, John 17:15). The Church will only
be caught up as high as the clouds to meet Jesus in
the air on His way down to the earth at His second
coming (1 Thessalonians 4:15-17).

---

HisdaughterJen posted in message #123:

[Ezekiel 38:19-22]

Click to expand...

The Gog/Magog event of Ezekiel chapters 38-39 will
happen after the millennium (Revelation 20:7-9).

HisdaughterJen posted in message #123:

[Revelation 6:12-17]

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Revelation 6:12-17 will happen during the coming
tribulation. Those who say Revelation 6:17 could be
just as mistaken as Job was in Job 19:11.

HisdaughterJen posted in message #123:

[Joel 2:30-31]

Click to expand...

Joel 2:31 is Revelation 6:12, during the tribulation,
some years "before" the day of the Lord (Joel 2:31),
which will start at the second coming (1 Corinthians
1:7-8), which will be after the tribulation (Matthew
24:29-31) of Revelation chapters 6-18, in Revelation 19.

Biblewriter posted in message #84:

I pointed out that we have a clear scriptural
precedent in assuming that the difference in the two
sets of New Testament descriptions of Jesus' future
coming indicate that He is coming twice. For that is
exactly what God did in the Old Testament
descriptions of his coming. Some of them presented
him as a mighty conquer, and others presented him as
a suffering sacrifice. The difference was because he
was coming twice.

Now in the New Testament, some of the prophecies
describe him coming in blessing for the righteous and
some describe him coming in judgment for the wicked.
You insist that since it never specifically says that
these are two different comings, that there is only
one. But scriptural precedent shows that this argument
is simply incorrect.

Click to expand...

While the Old Testament descriptions of the coming
of Christ did require two different comings: one to
die for our sins (Isaiah 53) and one to rule the
world (Zechariah 14), nothing in the the Old or New
Testament descriptions of the coming of Christ require
more than one future coming. For Christ will bring
blessing for the righteous and judgment for the wicked
at the same coming (Matthew 24:30-31; 2 Thessalonians
1:7-10; Revelation 19:7-20:6).

Big Mouth Nana posted in message #124:

Christs second coming is synonymous with The Day of
The Lord. It happens just as the 7th and LAST ANGEL
begins to sound the LAST TRUMPET IN Rev 10 :7... But
in the days of the voice of the seventh angel, when
he shall begin to sound, the MYSTERY of God should be
finished, as he hath declared to his servants the
prophets....1 Cor 15:51... Behold, I shew you a
mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be
changed,
52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the
last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead
shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.

Click to expand...

Christ may not come at the seventh trumpet of the
tribulation, which could simply announce the end of
the Antichrist's reign (Revelation 11:15). Out of the
temple-opening of the seventh trumpet could come the
seven plagues of the vials of wrath (Revelation 11:19,
15:5-16:1). The Church will still be on the earth
during the vials of wrath, still waiting for Jesus'
coming as a thief (Revelation 16:15). Jesus won't come
to gather together the Church until after the
tribulation (Matthew 24:29-31) of Revelation chapters
6-18, in Revelation 19. That's why the marriage doesn't
happen until Revelation 19:7.

The mystery which will be finished at the seventh
trumpet (Revelation 10:7) could be the seven plagues
hidden in the temple in heaven, which could come out
at the temple-opening of the seventh trumpet
(Revelation 11:19, 15:5-16:1).

The last trumpet could be after the seventh trumpet,
and after the subsequent plagues, after the entire
tribulation, when the second-coming trumpet will
sound to gather together the Church (Matthew 24:29-31,
cf. 1 Thessalonians 4:15-17; 2 Thessalonians 2:1).

Bible2 said:

Christ may not come at the seventh trumpet of the
tribulation, which could simply announce the end of
the Antichrist's reign (Revelation 11:15). Out of the
temple-opening of the seventh trumpet could come the
seven plagues of the vials of wrath (Revelation 11:19,
15:5-16:1). The Church will still be on the earth
during the vials of wrath, still waiting for Jesus'
coming as a thief (Revelation 16:15). Jesus won't come
to gather together the Church until after the
tribulation (Matthew 24:29-31) of Revelation chapters
6-18, in Revelation 19. That's why the marriage doesn't
happen until Revelation 19:7.

The mystery which will be finished at the seventh
trumpet (Revelation 10:7) could be the seven plagues
hidden in the temple in heaven, which could come out
at the temple-opening of the seventh trumpet
(Revelation 11:19, 15:5-16:1).

The last trumpet could be after the seventh trumpet,
and after the subsequent plagues, after the entire
tribulation, when the second-coming trumpet will
sound to gather together the Church (Matthew 24:29-31,
cf. 1 Thessalonians 4:15-17; 2 Thessalonians 2:1).

Click to expand...

Rev11 has the 7th trump...the last one...the final trump...which is the trump of God....

Rev12 and 13 are parenthetical chapters....ending with the beast taking over the world...

Rev14 shows us the Gathering of the elect at the 7th trump in Rev11....The return of Christ who is here, on Mt Zion with the elect....for The Lord's Day (Millennium).

we see many hints of this time in Revelation....multiple times.....

this is one of them....


in His service
c

zeke37 posted in message #156:

Rev11 has the 7th trump...the last one...the final
trump...which is the trump of God....

Click to expand...

Revelation 11:15-19 shows the 7th trumpet, which is
the last trumpet during the tribulation, but not the
last trumpet that will sound, after the tribulation
of Revelation chapters 6-18 is over (Matthew 24:29-31;
1 Corinthians 15:52).

zeke37 posted in message #156:

Rev12 and 13 are parenthetical chapters....ending
with the beast taking over the world...

Click to expand...

Revelation chapters 12-14 each cover the same 42-month
time period (Revelation 12:6,14, 13:5b) as Revelation
11:2b-14, the world-reign of the Antichrist. The
church will suffer and die under the Antichrist
(Revelation 13:7-10, 14:12-13, 20:4).

zeke37 posted in message #156:

Rev14 shows us the Gathering of the elect at the 7th
trump in Rev11....The return of Christ who is here,
on Mt Zion with the elect....for The Lord's Day
(Millennium).

Click to expand...

There is no gathering together of the elect at the
7th trumpet during the tribulation in Revelation
11:15-19. The gathering together of the elect won't
happen until Revelation 19 (v. 7), at the trumpet
which will sound at the second coming, after the
tribulation (Matthew 24:29-31) of Revelation chapters
6-18.

Revelation 14:1-5 shows the 144,000 male-virgins
part of the church, which was caught up as the "man
child" to the throne of God right before the 42-month
reign of the Antichrist started (Revelation 12:5-6).
The mount Sion of Revelation 14:1 is the heavenly
mount Sion, New Jerusalem (Hebrews 12:22).

Revelation 14:12-13 shows that part of the church will
still be down on the earth being martyred for not
worshipping the Antichrist or his image, or taking his
mark on the hand or forehead (Revelation 14:9-11).

Revelation 14:14-16 shows Jesus figuratively reaping
into heaven the souls of those in the church who will
be killed by the Antichrist (Revelation 13:7-10,
14:12-13, 20:4).

The day of the Lord won't start until the second coming
(1 Corinthians 1:7-8), which isn't until Revelation 19.
The millennium (Revelation 20:4-6) won't start until
after the second coming (Revelation 19). The day of the
Lord will include the millennium (cf. 2 Peter 3:8) and
the subsequent battle of Gog and Magog (Revelation
20:7-9, Ezekiel chapters 38-39). The passing away of
heaven and earth in the day of the Lord (2 Peter 3:10)
won't happen until the subsequent great white throne
judgment (Revelation 20:11, cf. 21:1).