"a dog returning to its own vomit".

Garyzenuf

Socialism is lovely.
Aug 17, 2008
1,170
97
66
White Rock, Canada
✟16,857.00
Faith
Agnostic
Marital Status
In Relationship
Politics
CA-NDP
Sorry, thats a little gross, but I believe its in the bible. Aparrently thats how God now views me, since I once believed, and now no longer do. I think I'm the same man, inside and out, as when I was a christian, as caring, as loving, maybe a little less critical of others, and a bit more educated, but basiclly the same.

It seems the only BIG change in me has been my belief in the God of the bible as being real, for that thought, he has gone from loving me, to seeing me as dog eating his own vomit, and someone now worthy only for an eternity of torturing and suffering in hell.

For a thought, don't you think thats a little harsh? :confused:
 

calidog

Veteran
Nov 1, 2005
916
56
shhhhhh
✟1,986.00
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Private
If you now believe God does'nt exist, it should'nt matter. It would only matter if God does exist.

Even if you suspect He might exist, and your answer to Him on judgement day is justified, then He should accept your answer if you truely believe you are justified.

But because He does exists and because He judges rightly, you should repent and return to Him. You should continue to listen the the Spirit that is causing this concern in you.
 
Upvote 0

Garyzenuf

Socialism is lovely.
Aug 17, 2008
1,170
97
66
White Rock, Canada
✟16,857.00
Faith
Agnostic
Marital Status
In Relationship
Politics
CA-NDP
I guess my question is more if you repent of, oh I dont know, murder or rape say, God seems to fall all over himself forgiving you, but if you live a good life, and treat those around you lovingly, yet question his reality, he gets totally steamed about that. Why is it so important to him that you believe, regardless of how good you are to others? Its almost like he's saying " I dont care what you do, as long as you believe in me".
 
  • Like
Reactions: GryffinSong
Upvote 0

OldChurchGuy

Regular Member
Feb 19, 2007
195
24
✟15,752.00
Faith
Presbyterian
Marital Status
Married
Sorry, thats a little gross, but I believe its in the bible. Aparrently thats how God now views me, since I once believed, and now no longer do. I think I'm the same man, inside and out, as when I was a christian, as caring, as loving, maybe a little less critical of others, and a bit more educated, but basiclly the same.

It seems the only BIG change in me has been my belief in the God of the bible as being real, for that thought, he has gone from loving me, to seeing me as dog eating his own vomit, and someone now worthy only for an eternity of torturing and suffering in hell.

For a thought, don't you think thats a little harsh? :confused:

Judgment is really up to God, not a mere mortal like me.

I am more curious as to what happened in your life to no longer believe in God. If you prefer not to respond in a public forum, feel free to contact me by personal message.

Sincerely,

OldChurchGuy
 
Upvote 0

Garyzenuf

Socialism is lovely.
Aug 17, 2008
1,170
97
66
White Rock, Canada
✟16,857.00
Faith
Agnostic
Marital Status
In Relationship
Politics
CA-NDP
I dont mind responding in public, thank you for the interest.

I started looking up information on the ark for a fellow christian at work, and ended up on a secular website listing some grave concerns about the accuaracy of the flood. I realized I too had some reservations on the story, but had chalked it up to my own lack of faith I guess.

For what ever reason I could not get the questions out of my mind. Over the next month or two I looked up other things in the bible I had been taught to take on faith (6000 year old earth, light from distant galaxies that I shouldn't be able to see, Exoduos (sp), things that seemed to happen all the time in the past, but never in the present).

The more I read and listened to explanations of Christianity, the less I seemed to believe it. I didn't want to be an Atheist, I was really enjoying my life following Christ, many good friends who also believed, and although life was not always easy, it was very rewarding.

I still live my life in line with many of the teachings of Jesus and Paul, as the fruits are many fold, for myself and for those around me.

I sincerely wish I still believed in ALL the bible, I really do, but try as I might, some of it seems utterly impossible to have accured. So, I continue to live my life as I think pleased God before, knowing its not good enough for him, but hoping to make a positive difference that I lived at all.
 
Upvote 0

Emmy

Senior Veteran
Feb 15, 2004
10,199
939
✟50,995.00
Faith
Salvation Army
Dear Garyzenuf. What makes you think that Jesus meant you, with " a dog returning to its own vomit?" You tell us that you live your life as you lived it when you were still a " believer." God is Love, and He will love you for leading a life filled with love. The day will come, Gary, when you will leave your earthly body behind. If you cannot believe in God, as we know Him, where will you end up? God does not force or coerce us in any way, we have free will to choose the life we will lead, and what then Gary? Jesus died that we might live, Jesus reconciled us to God, He paid the price which God`s Holy Law demands. He paid for Mankind`s selfishness, for our wrongdoings, and not loving God as He deserves to be loved. Why are things like the flood, or the ark, more important to you, than God`s Love? I am sure you can find sensible explanations of all these questions in " Strong`s Exhaustive Concordance of the Bible. Also our Lord`s real meaning of " a dog returning to its own vomit." I say this withhumility and love, Garyzenuf, and send greetings. Emmy, your sister in Christ.
 
Upvote 0

Zunalter

Regular Member
Aug 5, 2004
151
18
ID
✟7,969.00
Faith
Non-Denom
Politics
US-Others
I guess my question is more if you repent of, oh I dont know, murder or rape say, God seems to fall all over himself forgiving you, but if you live a good life, and treat those around you lovingly, yet question his reality, he gets totally steamed about that. Why is it so important to him that you believe, regardless of how good you are to others? Its almost like he's saying " I dont care what you do, as long as you believe in me".

The only difference between a repentant rapist and a person who has lived a moral life is that the rapist knows they are a bad person, while the "moral" person is self-righteous.

But don't take my word for it:

(Luke 18:10-14)
10"Two men went up into the temple to pray, one a Pharisee and the other a tax collector.
11"The Pharisee stood and was praying this to himself: 'God, I thank You that I am not like other people: swindlers, unjust, adulterers, or even like this tax collector.
12'I fast twice a week; I pay tithes of all that I get.'
13"But the tax collector, standing some distance away, was even unwilling to lift up his eyes to heaven, but was beating his breast, saying, 'God, be merciful to me, the sinner!'
14"I tell you, this man went to his house justified rather than the other; for everyone who exalts himself will be humbled, but he who humbles himself will be exalted."

The fact of the matter is that nobody is moral, no matter how "good" of a life you have lived. Everyone has broken God's law, whether through lying, stealing, adultery, adultery of the heart(Mt. 5:28), murder, blasphemy, dishonoring parents, etc...

So ultimately, with all due respect to your question, your premise is faulty and thus your conclusion is as well.
 
Last edited:
  • Like
Reactions: FrederickM
Upvote 0

OldChurchGuy

Regular Member
Feb 19, 2007
195
24
✟15,752.00
Faith
Presbyterian
Marital Status
Married
I dont mind responding in public, thank you for the interest.

I started looking up information on the ark for a fellow christian at work, and ended up on a secular website listing some grave concerns about the accuaracy of the flood. I realized I too had some reservations on the story, but had chalked it up to my own lack of faith I guess.

For what ever reason I could not get the questions out of my mind. Over the next month or two I looked up other things in the bible I had been taught to take on faith (6000 year old earth, light from distant galaxies that I shouldn't be able to see, Exoduos (sp), things that seemed to happen all the time in the past, but never in the present).

The more I read and listened to explanations of Christianity, the less I seemed to believe it. I didn't want to be an Atheist, I was really enjoying my life following Christ, many good friends who also believed, and although life was not always easy, it was very rewarding.

I still live my life in line with many of the teachings of Jesus and Paul, as the fruits are many fold, for myself and for those around me.

I sincerely wish I still believed in ALL the bible, I really do, but try as I might, some of it seems utterly impossible to have accured. So, I continue to live my life as I think pleased God before, knowing its not good enough for him, but hoping to make a positive difference that I lived at all.

Thank you for your candid response. I can identify somewhat with the dilemma you are dealing with.

Some years ago I also had a literalist understanding of the Bible. And then I accepted the honor of teaching a high school Sunday School class. The kids were filled with questions and I was researching the church library for answers.

The church library had a variety of books covering a wide range of theological ideas from The Interpreter's Bible to Matthew Henry's Commentary to Halley's Bible Handbook to Clarke's Commentary to William Barclay's Commentaries on the New Testament and various other commentaries as well as a variety of Bible Dictionaries.

The many conflicting ideas and information put me at a crossroads similar to you, I think. Over time I left a literalist interpretation primarily due to the realization that we do not have any of the original manuscripts for the Hebrew Bible nor the New Testament. So it is impossible to know with absolute certainty just what is God's word.

For me, the Bible is like a guide-book written by many people (mostly unknown) over many centuries. Like any guide-book it has a lot of information describing a given reality. But until one goes to that place and experiences it for themselves the guide-book can't do the described reality justice. Put another way, I see the Bible as a collection of writings with the central theme being "THIS is what it is like to experience God".

Transitioning from a literalist to a non-literalist understanding of the Bible allows me to continue believing in God's existense. What has changed is my understanding of God.

I cannot prove my interpretation is correct just as a literal interpretation of the Bible cannot be proven as the correct understanding either. Both are a matter of faith and belief.

As we continue in our journeys of discovery, it seems God has room in this universe for literal and non-literal interpretations. Perhaps a given theology is not as important as following some of the key ideas: Love God; Love your neighbor; Take care of widows and orphans (literal and symbolic).

Enough preaching. Hopefully these ramblings are of some help.

Sincerely,

OldChurchGuy
 
  • Like
Reactions: Stinker
Upvote 0

Lukaris

Orthodox Christian
Supporter
Aug 3, 2007
7,839
2,533
Pennsylvania, USA
✟745,296.00
Country
United States
Faith
Eastern Orthodox
Marital Status
Single
I think you also should realize that if you back up and read 2 Peter 2:10-22, the apostle is referring to those who not only leave the faith but also proceed to deceive, to preach doctrine contrary to the faith, indulge in sexual lust, hedonism etc. This is not directed at someone as yourself who simply lost faith but kept it to themself. Leaving Christ aside, suppose you knew of someone who preached virtue & clean living as values then decided to encourage their friends to have orgies and shoot heroin, would you not perhaps refer to this person as a "dog who returns to his own vomit"? Especially, if this individual would scoff at repentance?
 
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

PastorJim

Well-Known Member
Jul 12, 2006
1,612
344
✟3,601.00
Faith
Baptist
Sorry, thats a little gross, but I believe its in the bible. Aparrently thats how God now views me, since I once believed, and now no longer do. I think I'm the same man, inside and out, as when I was a christian, as caring, as loving, maybe a little less critical of others, and a bit more educated, but basiclly the same.

It seems the only BIG change in me has been my belief in the God of the bible as being real, for that thought, he has gone from loving me, to seeing me as dog eating his own vomit, and someone now worthy only for an eternity of torturing and suffering in hell.

For a thought, don't you think thats a little harsh? :confused:

I always find it troubling when somebody says "I used to be a Christian" and then goes on to describe their idea of Christianity, which is completely at odds with what Christianity actually teaches.

I have to wonder if they're just making it up to get our goat, or if they were just playing at being a Christian.

From what you've described as your beliefs about what Christianity teaches, it doesn't sound like you have any kind of understanding of our sinfulness before God, God's holiness, or how we are saved.

How can you have been a Christian without knowing those things? At least some elementary knowledge of each of those is required to be a Christian.

No offense, but I find it a little difficult to believe that the church didn't catch any of this when they interviewed you for membership or that the pastor didn't catch any of this when he interviewed you as a baptismal candidate.

At best, it looks like you believed you were a Christian but did not actually have any real, Biblical grounds to claim to be a Christian. That happens quite a bit.

Some people think they're Christians because they were born into a "Christian" family (no such thing, by the way). Some people think they're Christians because they go to church. Some people think they're Christians because they believe in God.

None of these things make you a Christian and the church has dropped the ball and seems to be more interested in numbers than the state of somebody's salvation and sanctification.

That's why there are so many people who's names are on church rolls, but aren't in the Lamb's Book of Life.
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0

Garyzenuf

Socialism is lovely.
Aug 17, 2008
1,170
97
66
White Rock, Canada
✟16,857.00
Faith
Agnostic
Marital Status
In Relationship
Politics
CA-NDP
Those were some of the most helpful responses I've had to a question since I started reading, and then posting on this site, (not pastorjims of course), but Lukaris, Emmy, and OldChurchGuy. Thank you.
Lukaris and Emmy, my confusion about the passage came from being told at work (by a christian, sorry), that the verse reffered to people like me, and that I could expect extra attension from Jesus on judgement day. Thanks again for clearing up my misunderstanding. Emmy, it feels like my head and my heart have split, my heart still belongs with God (or at least thats what it feels like), but my mind has become skeptical, to say the least. Like I said earlier in this thread, I was more than happy being a christian, these thoughts blind sided me, and have not subsided so I must deal with them. This may not have been the best place to ask for answers, but I was getting desperate. It actually took me months just to start posting, its funny, in real life, I'm not shy at all.

OldChurchGuy, it never really accured to me, (I dont recall anyway), that I could view the bible as anything other than a literal translation of history and Gods point by point instructions for us. That, and other things you said really got me thinking along lines that hadn't accured to me (seems to be a theme there), I would like to talk further with you about what you said, but perhaps we can do it as a private message (what ever that is :confused: ), as you seemed to show a knack for prophesy with the suggestion earlier. I'm going out, but if when you get back on line, you could post a how to, I'll drop you a (post?), when we get back home. Thank you again.

PastorJim, I can no more make you believe that I was an actual christian, than you could make me believe your not a jackass. I'm sorry I can't articulate the all incompassing love I had for Christ, and the certianity I had in His love for me to suit your pious standards, but I guess many must fall short of your all encompassing knowledge of Gods path for the rest of us. What if I had been a weaker person, tetering on the edge of walking out on Jesus for good, do you think your condesending tone, and infference to me being just a liar out to get your goat would have helped me rekindle my sputtering faith? Hardly....Oooops, look like you better get back to me quick OCG as I seem to be losing what christian values I have left.

Your right Stromrider, that is all too familiar a retort I get from some christians, oddly not the christians I've know in the past, or ones that have taken the time to get to know me now.
 
Upvote 0

salida

Veteran
Jun 14, 2006
4,305
278
✟6,243.00
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Constitution
I know this seems harsh to our human reasoning; but remember that Jesus died on the cross for us and suffered more than any man in history. He was God and man - He did this so that we can have eternal life; this is the only remedy that we have spiritually to be redeemed. If a physical doctor said that he only had one cure for us to save us physically - its not a problem. Why is this a problem when it comes to eternal life which is way more pressing? Thus, he commands us to give our life to him. The Holy Spirit gives christians the power to live a christian life - and we must die daily to the flesh. Its a lifelong lifestyle until we leave this world.

God hates sin - not because he is cruel but because he is so holy he can't be in the presence of it at all. Also, his standards are so high we can't do it by just being good natured or doing good works; none is good. If we break just one of the 10 Commandments - we are guilty of it all. This is why Christ died for us - as we are saved by grace and good works is just a byproduct of this. Its a gift. God isn't at all impressed with men doing good works or being humanly good natured - this is like a bunch of ants that you created building you a house.

Are you a good person? http://www.livingwaters.com/good/

Hell is separation from God. Its for those who have lived a life separated from God. Would you let someone in your house(heaven) who doesn't want to talk to you? I don't know about you but I don't talk to people who don't want to talk to me. God doesn't force because this isn't unconditional love as God is Love.
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0

PastorJim

Well-Known Member
Jul 12, 2006
1,612
344
✟3,601.00
Faith
Baptist
PastorJim, I can no more make you believe that I was an actual christian, than you could make me believe your not a jackass.

I'm sorry I can't articulate the all incompassing love I had for Christ, and the certianity I had in His love for me to suit your pious standards, but I guess many must fall short of your all encompassing knowledge of Gods path for the rest of us. What if I had been a weaker person, tetering on the edge of walking out on Jesus for good, do you think your condesending tone, and infference to me being just a liar out to get your goat would have helped me rekindle my sputtering faith? Hardly....Oooops, look like you better get back to me quick OCG as I seem to be losing what christian values I have left.

There's no need to be rude, Gary.

But really, what do you expect me to think when you say things like:
I guess my question is more if you repent of, oh I dont know, murder or rape say, God seems to fall all over himself forgiving you, but if you live a good life, and treat those around you lovingly, yet question his reality, he gets totally steamed about that. Why is it so important to him that you believe, regardless of how good you are to others? Its almost like he's saying " I dont care what you do, as long as you believe in me".

I always find it troubling when somebody says "I used to be a Christian" and then goes on to describe their idea of Christianity, which is completely at odds with what Christianity actually teaches.

I have to wonder if they're just making it up to get our goat, or if they were just playing at being a Christian.

From what you've described as your beliefs about what Christianity teaches, it doesn't sound like you have any kind of understanding of our sinfulness before God, God's holiness, or how we are saved.

How can you have been a Christian without knowing those things? At least some elementary knowledge of each of those is required to be a Christian.

No offense, but I find it a little difficult to believe that the church didn't catch any of this when they interviewed you for membership or that the pastor didn't catch any of this when he interviewed you as a baptismal candidate.

At best, it looks like you believed you were a Christian but did not actually have any real, Biblical grounds to claim to be a Christian. That happens quite a bit.

Some people think they're Christians because they were born into a "Christian" family (no such thing, by the way). Some people think they're Christians because they go to church. Some people think they're Christians because they believe in God.

None of these things make you a Christian and the church has dropped the ball and seems to be more interested in numbers than the state of somebody's salvation and sanctification.

That's why there are so many people who's names are on church rolls, but aren't in the Lamb's Book of Life.

Gary, you say that you were a Christian. Would you mind sharing your testimony with us?
 
Upvote 0

Garyzenuf

Socialism is lovely.
Aug 17, 2008
1,170
97
66
White Rock, Canada
✟16,857.00
Faith
Agnostic
Marital Status
In Relationship
Politics
CA-NDP
I felt my integrity, honesty and beliefs were being assailed with out the least bit of regard (woops, just about said for my feelings), if I was on the level or after your goat PastorJim. I felt that was rude, and responded in kind. It sounded like you were standing me in front of Sunday School class saying, "See children, this is someone who thinks they were a christian, but obviously wasn't, and heres why...". You then went on to point out to me, how from reading my post, you had asertained that I was not only NOT a christian and never had been, but I didn't even possess the "elementry knowledge of what it meant to be a christian". Nice.

Why on earth would I NOT take offense at being called a liar, and then listen to you slag my old pastor (one of the most beautiful people I have ever known, who I love just as much today as I did when he married us 14 years ago), for not weeding me out?

You summed up your view of my spiritual life by telling me that at best I honestly (perhaps) THOUGHT I was a christian, but really wasn't. But thats OK it wasn't my fault, it was the churchs for letting a closet agnostic lurk amongst you. Then finished off my judgement by telling me that even if I had remained a believer, my name would NOT be appearing in the book that matters, but that I was just a statistic in a church registry. All this delivered in what I took to be a condesending tone.

Thats why I was rude, and for that, I fully apologize. After writing my response to your first post, I started getting the uncomfortable feeling that I was becoming a very dark pot, calling you black. I was angry, and responded perhaps far too quickly. I wrote earlier that I did not enjoy using this medium for communicating, I seldom seem to get down what I'm trying to say, I type about three words a minute, and by the time I finish a sentence, I've lost my train of thought. I believe I'm a far better listener and talker, than I am a reader and writer. (Dont even get me started on puncuation and spelling...yikes). what I've typed so far has taken nearly an hour and a half. :blush:

As you may well imagine, I'm loathe to give my testimony in this format, I believe I would recieve more condemnation and ridicule than help or direction. I said earlier it took me months to screw up enough courage to actually post on this (and other sites), mainly because it seemed people were more interested in winning arguments than sharing support and
ideas, and I believe most people seem more intelligent than me on most every topic raised. I also said I was desperate for information, direction, advice, support, etc, etc. To wit, I'll share later today (going to see those dang kids), the path that led me to Christ, as for my christian testimony, perhaps in a PM, I'm still a little leery.

Its funny, people on atheist and ex-christian websites think I may just be a troll (whatever that is), or at the very least a floundering christian who should perhaps be vsiting THIS website, I come here and its suggested I was never REALLY a christian in the first place. :scratch: Does anyone know where the "Now I'm Totally Confused Website is"?
 
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

PastorJim

Well-Known Member
Jul 12, 2006
1,612
344
✟3,601.00
Faith
Baptist
I felt my integrity, honesty and beliefs were being assailed with out the least bit of regard (woops, just about said for my feelings), if I was on the level or after your goat PastorJim. I felt that was rude, and responded in kind. It sounded like you were standing me in front of Sunday School class saying, "See children, this is someone who thinks they were a christian, but obviously wasn't, and heres why...". You then went on to point out to me, how from reading my post, you had asertained that I was not only NOT a christian and never had been, but I didn't even possess the "elementry knowledge of what it meant to be a christian". Nice.

Why on earth would I NOT take offense at being called a liar, and then listen to you slag my old pastor (one of the most beautiful people I have ever known, who I love just as much today as I did when he married us 14 years ago), for not weeding me out?

All I said was that I was surprised that your pastor didn't notice your lack of understanding when interviewing you as a baptismal candidate.

I'm sorry you feel that's "slagging".

You summed up your view of my spiritual life by telling me that at best I honestly (perhaps) THOUGHT I was a christian, but really wasn't. But thats OK it wasn't my fault, it was the churchs for letting a closet agnostic lurk amongst you. Then finished off my judgement by telling me that even if I had remained a believer, my name would NOT be appearing in the book that matters, but that I was just a statistic in a church registry. All this delivered in what I took to be a condesending tone.

What in the world are you talking about? I believe I made a general statement explaining that the Bible is correct when it says that it's possible to be a false convert, not judging you, personally.

Gary, you seem to be confusing me judging you with me proclaiming what the Bible says about somebody who doesn't have a good grasp of theology.

Your post was very troubling. You said a lot about being "good" and that you couldn't understand why this person would go to Heaven, while that person would go to Hell.

You certainly seemed by your own words not to have any sense of your own sinfulness or depravity before God. How could you have repented if you don't even know what you're repenting for? How could you have put your faith in Christ if you can't even articulate why it is necessary to put your faith in Christ?

If I told you that I was a doctor, and that I could cure any illness you had by removing one of your lungs and shoving it in your ear, would you believe that I was really a doctor?

Of course you wouldn't. So how am I to believe that you were a Christian when you say that you don't understand why God sends people to Hell or that some people are capable of pleasing God by their actions?

I want to make something very clear to you, Gary. My point is not, and never was, to embarrass you, offend you, call you a liar, or any of the things you've said in your post.

My only point is to point out that your words make you appear very confused about what Christianity teaches and, before you say that you've "left" Christianity, we must first establish that you were a Christian.

Gary, are you born again?
 
Upvote 0

OldChurchGuy

Regular Member
Feb 19, 2007
195
24
✟15,752.00
Faith
Presbyterian
Marital Status
Married
Those were some of the most helpful responses I've had to a question since I started reading, and then posting on this site, (not pastorjims of course), but Lukaris, Emmy, and OldChurchGuy. Thank you.
Lukaris and Emmy, my confusion about the passage came from being told at work (by a christian, sorry), that the verse reffered to people like me, and that I could expect extra attension from Jesus on judgement day. Thanks again for clearing up my misunderstanding. Emmy, it feels like my head and my heart have split, my heart still belongs with God (or at least thats what it feels like), but my mind has become skeptical, to say the least. Like I said earlier in this thread, I was more than happy being a christian, these thoughts blind sided me, and have not subsided so I must deal with them. This may not have been the best place to ask for answers, but I was getting desperate. It actually took me months just to start posting, its funny, in real life, I'm not shy at all.

OldChurchGuy, it never really accured to me, (I dont recall anyway), that I could view the bible as anything other than a literal translation of history and Gods point by point instructions for us. That, and other things you said really got me thinking along lines that hadn't accured to me (seems to be a theme there), I would like to talk further with you about what you said, but perhaps we can do it as a private message (what ever that is :confused: ), as you seemed to show a knack for prophesy with the suggestion earlier. I'm going out, but if when you get back on line, you could post a how to, I'll drop you a (post?), when we get back home. Thank you again.

PastorJim, I can no more make you believe that I was an actual christian, than you could make me believe your not a jackass. I'm sorry I can't articulate the all incompassing love I had for Christ, and the certianity I had in His love for me to suit your pious standards, but I guess many must fall short of your all encompassing knowledge of Gods path for the rest of us. What if I had been a weaker person, tetering on the edge of walking out on Jesus for good, do you think your condesending tone, and infference to me being just a liar out to get your goat would have helped me rekindle my sputtering faith? Hardly....Oooops, look like you better get back to me quick OCG as I seem to be losing what christian values I have left.

Your right Stromrider, that is all too familiar a retort I get from some christians, oddly not the christians I've know in the past, or ones that have taken the time to get to know me now.

A Private Message is done by left clicking on the person's name in the upper left corner of a post they have written. Options will appear and one of them is "Private Message". Click it and you will come to a web page you can fill out. There are probably other ways it can be done but that is the one I know how to do.

I look forward to hearing from you. I sent you a Private Message but am not sure you got notice of receiving it.

Looking forward to hearing from you.

Sincerely,

OldChurchGuy
 
Upvote 0

Garyzenuf

Socialism is lovely.
Aug 17, 2008
1,170
97
66
White Rock, Canada
✟16,857.00
Faith
Agnostic
Marital Status
In Relationship
Politics
CA-NDP
PastorJim, I said I was sorry, but I shant be soon.

I re-read our posts, and you seem desperately trying to convince me, you and anyone else reading this thread, that at best I didnt know up from down when it comes to what it meant to be a christian. Well maybe your right Jim, perhaps I didnt do everything correct as a christian, perhaps I was only deluding myself as to my own faith and belief in what I thought was involved in being a christian. If I listed what I believed as a christian, at this point it would most likely come out wrong, then I would just be back defending myself and getting no help at all.

I just re-re-read MY posts, and I may have been a "little" (OK, maybe a little more than a little) scattered in my questions and responses.

My original question was meant to ask, if I (say for discussion) was a christian, and started to disbelieve parts of the bible, but still viewed Jesus as my Lord, how come for that questioning and confusion, God would see me as a "title of this thread". This (I believe) was cleared up for me by Emmy and Lukaris. OCG opened my mind to thoughts that have never (as I can recall) occured to me, I'm now going to correspond with him privately and hopefully that will turn out benefisial(sp) for both of us.

I didn't start this thread to argue with people (although my tone in the original thread was colored by anger, which I apologize for), I really am sincere in my questions, and confused in my soul, and my mind. OCG has told me how to send a PM, so I would like to send you one if thats all right, I'll go over my journey to date, and hopefully we to will be able to come to a better understanding of each other.

See....I just read this post and yet again I start out angry, move into a clarafication, try for some sort of reconciliation, and end up suggesting a path that may get us there. Yep, all over the map, thats me.

P.S.- I still believe your original post was condesending. ;)
 
Upvote 0

ahiggs

Regular Member
Aug 4, 2008
541
27
49
Carthage Missouri
✟8,341.00
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Libertarian
look at it this way...it is not the sin it's self it is who we sin aginst. that would be God. since we broke his law he has the right to punish us.
say you throw a rock at a stray dog...nothing is going to happen to you
same rock at a homeless man. maybe nothing will happen if you get caught probably just a slap on the wrist.
same rock at the president of the united states. you will be put under the jail. what is the difference...who you threw the rock at. God is iinfinitely higher than any president, so our sin is that much greater in his eyes. so it is not the rape or murder, or lie or covetous nature that makes it bad or worse. all sin is aginst God. Jesus paid our fine so we don't have to. i am not saying this as if you don't know the gospel, but maybe this is just a different way than what you have heard? will be praying for you
since getting secular informantion convinced you that the bible is wrong...maybe look at some of the biblical science and try to keep an open mind. www.answersingenesis.org you may find that the bible is logical and there are some big wholes in evolution. there are many others if you are truly interested...answers in genesis is just my favorite
 
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

Garyzenuf

Socialism is lovely.
Aug 17, 2008
1,170
97
66
White Rock, Canada
✟16,857.00
Faith
Agnostic
Marital Status
In Relationship
Politics
CA-NDP
Thank you for your response Salida, I think I agree with all you said in your first paragraph, as well as the second it seems. I too believe we are saved by grace and not by our own unaided works, when I keep that thought close to my heart, I can't help but live a life of humility and gratitude.

My questions seem to revolve around the split between my heart and my head, my head continues to view the claimed inerrancy of the bible with skeptism, while in my heart I do believe God became man in Jesus Christ, died for my sins, and rose again to be my Lord. How can I possibly still think of myself as a christian, and yet not believe the bible?

It seems atheists and agnostics view me as a christian, christians view me as agnostic, and I don't know what to make of myself. I feel like a denomonation of one.

I checked out the link you put up...yup...guilty. It was funny Romans 5:8 was on the bottom of the last page, thats what led me to Christ in the first place, I was searching for a love beyond my understanding, and that was it Salida, I was raising two young daughters at the time, and to think of sacrificing them for people who were my enemies was and continues to be unimagineable love. (for me anyway).

There I go, rambling on again. I guess I'm looking for what thoughts you may have on my second paragraph Salida, although your thoughts on any of this would be welcome.

On a side note, if I created some ants, and they built me a house, I would quite frankly be very impressed, astounded actually. (But I take your point). :wave:
 
Upvote 0