Christian Jews

Another point on the original question of this thread:

James 2:18 Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works.

Notice what James is saying here. He's saying: "You say you have faith? Prove it!" If we truly have faith in Yeshua, then we will keep His Torah commandments, because it is by the keeping of His Torah commandments that we prove we have faith in Him. If we obey Him, we prove we have faith, if we do *not* obey His commandments, we prove otherwise.

This is why James went on to say:

James 2:24: Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.

If we refuse to observe the Sabbath, His festivals, and obey His kosher laws, we are saying: "Lord, I really don't think it's in my best interest to do these things. I think you made a mistake here," or "Lord, I don't think you have Your priorities straight, these commandments seem trivial and unimportant to me" or "Lord, these commandments just aren't practical in this day and age." No matter how you slice it and dice it, that isn't faith.

Shimon
 
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TheBear

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Shimon,

You say, "If we refuse to observe the Sabbath, His festivals, and obey His kosher laws, we are saying: "Lord, I really don't think it's in my best interest to do these things. I think you made a mistake here," or "Lord, I don't think you have Your priorities straight, these commandments seem trivial and unimportant to me" or "Lord, these commandments just aren't practical in this day and age." No matter how you slice it and dice it, that isn't faith."


But, you just read Romans 14:1-23. Are you simply refusing to see what is plainly stated?

Which part of Romans 14:5 don't you understand?

"5 One person esteems one day above another; another esteems every day alike. Let each be fully convinced in his own mind."
 
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TheBear:

But, you just read Romans 14:1-23. Are you simply refusing to see what is plainly stated?

Which part of Romans 14:5 don't you understand?

"5 One person esteems one day above another; another esteems every day alike. Let each be fully convinced in his own mind."

What I'm saying is that it makes no difference which holy day is "holier" than another, we're still expected to observe them, regardless.

You, on the other hand, are trying to interpret Paul's words to mean that we no longer have to obey Yeshua's commandments. If Paul were saying that, he would not be an emissary of Yeshua.

Take a look here:

Romans 3:1-2: What advantage then hath the Jew? or what profit [is there] of circumcision? Much every way: chiefly, because that unto them were committed the oracles of God.[KJV]

Romans 3:1-2: What advantage, then, is there in being a Jew, or what value is there in circumcision? Much in every way! First of all, they have been entrusted with the very words of God.[NIV]

What is Paul saying here? He is asking "What advantage is there in being a Jew?" He then answers this question by saying "Unto them were committed the oracles of God."

What are the "oracles of God?" Luke tells us in Acts Chapter 7:

Act 7:37-38: This is that Moses, which said unto the children of Israel, A prophet shall the Lord your God raise up unto you of your brethren, like unto me; him shall ye hear. This is he, that was in the church in the wilderness with the angel which spake to him in the mount Sinai, and [with] our fathers: who received the lively oracles to give unto us[KJV]

Acts 7:37-38: "This is that Moses who told the Israelites, 'God will send you a prophet like me from your own people.' He was in the assembly in the desert, with the angel who spoke to him on Mount Sinai, and with our fathers; and he received living words to pass on to us.[NIV]

The "oracles of God" were given on Mount Sinai -- the Torah.

The Greek word that is used in these verses is "logion." Strong's defines it this way:

3051 logion {log'-ee-on}

from 3052; TDNT - 4:137,505; n n

AV - oracle 4; 4

1) a brief utterance, a divine oracle (doubtless because oracles
were generally brief)
1a) in the NT, the words or utterances of God
1b) of the contents of the Mosaic law

Now take a look at what the writer of Hebrews tells us:

Hebrews 5:11-14: Of whom we have many things to say, and hard to be uttered, seeing ye are dull of hearing. For when for the time ye ought to be teachers, ye have need that one teach you again which [be] the first principles of the oracles of God; and are become such as have need of milk, and not of strong meat. For every one that useth milk [is] unskilful in the word of righteousness: for he is a babe. But strong meat belongeth to them that are of full age, [even] those who by reason of use have their senses exercised to discern both good and evil.[KJV]

Hebrews 5:11-14: We have much to say about this, but it is hard to explain because you are slow to learn. In fact, though by this time you ought to be teachers, you need someone to teach you the elementary truths of God's word all over again. You need milk, not solid food! Anyone who lives on milk, being still an infant, is not acquainted with the teaching about righteousness. But solid food is for the mature, who by constant use have trained themselves to distinguish good from evil.[NIV]

The writer of Hebrews spoke prophetically -- the time *has* come when we need to be taught the "oracles of God" (The Torah) all over again. We should be teachers, but instead we are in need of being taught all over again. By whom? By the very people who were entrusted with the "oracles of God:" the Jews.


Shimon
 
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Higher Truth

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Shimon,

Torah [five books of Moshe] is only a part of the complete work. The 'oracles of God' quote re-appears here as well:

"What advantage then hath the Jew? or what profit is there of circumcision? Much every way: chiefly, because that unto them were committed the oracles of God." (Rom. 3:1-2)

Are the 'oracles' only the Torah? Even though the NT was penned in Greek, was it not still authored by Jews? Many times peole claiming to be Torah observant pick and choose when it comes to the writings of Paul. Is not all scripture inspired? Was Paul not accurate on all accounts?
 
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Higher Truth:

Torah [five books of Moshe] is only a part of the complete work. The 'oracles of God' quote re-appears here as well:

In a literal sense, that's correct, but in a very real sense of the word, the Torah refers to the entire volume of scripture because all of it teaches Torah.

For instance, if the Torah *only* refers to the first five books, then how is it that Yeshua refers to Psalms as "written in your Torah?"

John 10:34: Jesus answered them, Is it not written in your law, I said, Ye are gods?

Yeshua was quoting Psalms 82:6:

Psalms 82:6: I have said, Ye [are] gods; and all of you [are] children of the most High.

Clearly, the entire Tanakh was considered "Torah" because every other book of the Tanakh was tested against the Torah to determine whether or not it was Inspired.

Shimon
 
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Higher Truth:

And we could enter into a discussion about HafTorah [Prophets] and cloud the issue further. The point that I am trying to make is that beating people with the 'Torah observant' sledgehammer does not enlighten anyone, it only alienates them, and I see that occuring here.

I see it happening too, and I really don't know what to do about it.

The penalty for violating the Sabbath was the same penalty as that for murder: capital punishment. If one continues to break the Sabbath, they might as well be a serial killer because the penalty is exactly the same.

If one claims to have faith in Yeshua and yet continues to live the life of a serial killer, does that person really have faith? How can one claim to have faith if they disobey the Sabbath?

We, in our Western mind, think that murder is a terrible sin, but that breaking the Sabbath is no big deal, but the wisdom of man is foolishness in the eyes of God. It's exactly as Paul told us:

Romans 7:7: What shall we say then? [Is] the law sin? God forbid. Nay, I had not known sin, but by the law: for I had not known lust, except the law had said, Thou shalt not covet.

Without the Torah, we would have no way of knowing what sin is, or what righteous living is. Without the Torah, we would have no way of knowing that breaking the Sabbath carries the same weight as murder.

The biblical festivals are not "Jewish Festivals," they are Feasts of the Lord [YHVH]. They belong to YHVH, and if we try to take them away from Him, rest assured that He gets angry.

Shimon
 
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Higher Truth

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Shimon,

Some people would say that the 10 commandments are 'law' and that the others are ceremonial. Let's look at something here. Before the coming of the Messiah, men tried to be keepers of the law. How successful were they?It has been said that from the time that Moses went up tp the mount, until the time Jesus came on the scene, that man, through his experience, had created a burden of law that no one could live under. With written and oral law , I have heard estimates of over one thousand. What is the difference between now and then? The Messiah sent The Spirit, which now convicts us of un-righteous behavior. The word says if you break one you break them all....thank God for Grace and forgiveness. Sometimes the term Torah observent is another way of saying "works of the flesh'. Can we create our own salvation? The answer is in the scriptures.
 
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Charles YTK

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Salvation has always been through faith. The law is a guide for righteous living. Abraham was saved by faith. but look what is said of him:

Gen 26: [4] And I will make thy seed to multiply as the stars of heaven, and will give unto thy seed all these countries; and in thy seed shall all the nations of the earth be blessed; [5] Because that Abraham obeyed my voice, and kept my charge, my commandments, my statutes, and my laws.

Faith is the beginning of righteousness. Righteousness is expressed through obedience.

Charles YTK
 
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Higher Truth:

The Jews *never* believed that they could work their way into Heaven through Torah-obedience. That is a Gentile misunderstanding.

When Paul speaks of "salvation by works" he is referring to "salvation by ritual" -- the ritual of circumcision.

According to the Mishnah:

All Israel have a portion in the world-to-come, for it is written, Your people are all righteous; they shall inherit the land for ever, the branch of my planting, the work of my hands, that I may be glorified.

-- m. Sanhedrin 10.1, the gemara is b.Sanhedrin 90a.

What did the Sages mean by this statement? They often spoke of Israel as wayward and rebellious, so it is clear they do not mean that all Israelites were without sin. Rather, righteousness is attributed to all who are members of the covenant. Righteousness, according to the Sages, was a matter of God’s willingness to reckon the pious deeds of the fathers to their offspring and to forgive and show mercy when Israel sins. Thus, the place in the world-to-come which belongs to all of Israel was a matter of God’s grace, not something earned or merited.

To put it in simpler terms, the Jews believed that salvation was granted to members of the covenant, and that the members of the covenant were the Jews. In order for a Gentile to become a member of the covenant, they believed, he had to become a Jew. Circumcision, then, was the method by which they believed a Gentile could become a Jew.

So, the Jews believed that the status of “righteous” before God and “unrighteous” was determined by one’s status as a Jew.

This, then, is the reason why we read in Acts 15:1 that “certain men which came down from Judaea taught the brethren, [and said], ‘Except ye be circumcised after the manner of Moses, ye cannot be saved.’” They believed that the covenant was made only with the Jews, and that Gentiles had to become Jewish through the proselyte ceremony of circumcision, before they could be saved.

It is this same issue that Paul was addressing in the book of Galatians. It is these Jews who Paul refers to as the “circumcision group” or “the circumcision faction” in Titus 1:10. The “circumcision group” or simply “the circumcision” were those Jews who were teaching that one had to become a Jew in order to be a member of the covenant family.

“B’rit milah,” the Hebrew term for “circumcision,” means “covenant in the flesh.” It is the means by which they believed a person became a member of the covenant.

But, in Genesis 17:9-14, we read:

Then God said to Abraham, "As for you, you must keep my covenant, you and your descendants after you for the generations to come. 10 This is my covenant with you and your descendants after you, the covenant you are to keep: Every male among you shall be circumcised. 11 You are to undergo circumcision, and it will be the sign of the covenant between me and you. 12 For the generations to come every male among you who is eight days old must be circumcised, including those born in your household or bought with money from a foreigner-those who are not your offspring. 13 Whether born in your household or bought with your money, they must be circumcised. My covenant in your flesh is to be an everlasting covenant. 14 Any uncircumcised male, who has not been circumcised in the flesh, will be cut off from his people; he has broken my covenant."

Here, we read that God instructed Abraham to circumcise his entire household, including those born to him, and those NOT born to him.

God was not creating a nationality here. That wasn’t His intent. His intent was to have a separate, set-apart people who would worship Him in Spirit and in Truth from WHATEVER nationality! He wasn’t designating “Jew vs. Gentile,” but was calling a people unto himself, from whatever nationality they may come from, to separate themselves from the things of the world, and be a holy and righteous people who obeyed His commandments. He was designating “righteous vs. unrighteous,” “worshipers of God” vs. “worshipers of false gods,” “those who chose His salvation” vs “those who did not,” “those who accepted His covenant” vs “those who rejected His covenant.”

"Grace" is not the freedom to live however we please. "Grace" is the empowerment to live a holy and righteous life in a sick and perverse world. We are called to separate ourselves from the things of the world, and become a separate, set-apart people unto God, and it makes no difference what nationality or ethnic status we come from.

Within His covenant family – His separate, set-apart people – there is no distinction between “Jew” or “Greek.” One’s ethnicity or nationality has absolutely no bearing on one’s status before God. The only status that makes a hill of beans of difference is the status of “in Messiah.”

This is what Paul meant when he said:

Galatians 3:28: There is neither Jew nor Greek, slave nor free, male nor female, for you are all one in Christ Jesus.

There is neither Jew nor Greek because *BOTH* are one in Messiah!

Circumcision, then, is the sign by which we designate which group we belong to: God’s people, or not His people. It is just like the lamb’s blood that was placed on the doorposts in Egypt – its purpose is to distinguish those who accept His salvation that the spirit of death may pass over us, and those who do *not* accept His salvation and choose death. By being circumcised, we are declaring “I’m one of His people.”

"Gentile," then, doesn't mean "not Jewish," it means "of the world" as opposed to "separate and set apart from the world."

Throughout the Torah, God made it clear that there was One Torah For All, whether Jew or Gentile:

Leviticus 16:29: And [this] shall be a statute for ever unto you: [that] in the seventh month, on the tenth [day] of the month, ye shall afflict your souls, and do no work at all, [whether it be] one of your own country, or a stranger that sojourneth among you

Leviticus 17:12: Therefore I said unto the children of Israel, No soul of you shall eat blood, neither shall any stranger that sojourneth among you eat blood.

Leviticus 18:26: Ye shall therefore keep my statutes and my judgments, and shall not commit [any] of these abominations; [neither] any of your own nation, nor any stranger that sojourneth among you

Leviticus 19:34: [But] the stranger that dwelleth with you shall be unto you as one born among you, and thou shalt love him as thyself; for ye were strangers in the land of Egypt: I [am] the LORD your God.

There was no distinction between "Jew" and "Gentile" among God's people. There was no set of laws given to "Jew" and a different set given to "Gentile."

So, when Paul said "let him not be circumcised," what he was trying to say is: "Don't think you have to become a Jew, because that has no bearing on your status of 'righteous before God.' It is your *faith* that gets you into the covenant, and not your ethnic status." He isn't saying "don't become circumcised," he's saying "it makes no difference whether you are Jew or Greek!

So, 1Cor 7:18-19 could be just as accurately interpreted as:

1 Corinthians 7:18-19: Was any man called already "Jew?" Let him not become "Greek". Has anyone been called "Greek?" Let him not be "Jewish." "Jewish" is nothing, and "Greek" is nothing, but what matters is the keeping of the commandments of God {i.e. having the status of "in Messiah" ).

So, he wasn't talking about the *act* of circumcision per se, he was talking about the creation of a "Jew" from a "Greek" through the ritual of circumcision.

Shimon
 
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Higher Truth

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Shimon,

I find all of these writings interesting, but the doctrine that you are quoting is a mixture of Messian Judaism, and other doctrine. This is very confusing to the Christian onlookers, and really is not any representation of the Messianic Judaism that I know. You may attend a Messianic Jewish congregation, but you are assimilating teachings from an outside source. Once again, the only thing that you are succeeding at is alienating people, and giving them a bad taste for what they feel is 'true' Messianic Judaism.
Where you are going is a slippery slope. I have read many documents by people professing to be Messianic with statements like "anti-nomian x-tians'[refusing to say the name Christ because they consider it from a 'pagan' source'. Or titles like 'sun-worshippers'. Remember, we are accountable for EVERY word we speak in this life. Check your motives.
 
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Higher Truth:

On what basis are you claiming that I am "mixing" Messianic Judaism and other doctrine? Is that your own personal opinion? From the posts you have written, I don't think you have a good understanding of what Messianic Judaism really is. I know you probably disagree with that, but I believe it to be so.

In any case, let's look at what you've referred to as "the burden that no man can bear:"

When Moses gave the Torah to the children of Israel, he told them that these commandments were "not too difficult for them."

Deuteronomy 30:11: Now what I am commanding you today is not too difficult for you or beyond your reach.

Yeshua Himself echoed this same statement when He said:

Matthew 11:29-30: Take my yoke upon you and learn from me, for I am gentle and humble in heart, and you will find rest for your souls. For my yoke is easy and my burden is light."

And the Apostle John confirmed it by saying:

1 John 5:3: This is love for God: to obey his commands. And his commands are not burdensome,

All three are saying the same thing here: that the Torah is not "burdensome."

Now, if we accept the Bible as the "Inspired Word of God," we must accept the fact that it does not contradict itself. Therefore, when Peter referred to something as a "burden which no man could bear," it is obvious that he *cannot* be speaking of the Torah, but of something else. That "something else" is the Rabbinic Tradition -- the man-made laws with which the rabbis had wrapped around the Torah to prevent one from inadvertantly breaking a commandment. It is this rabbinic tradition for which Yeshua rebuked the rabbis:

Matthew 15:3: Jesus replied, "And why do you break the command of God for the sake of your tradition?

The Torah is not a "burden" at all. In fact, it is more burdensome *not* to follow it than it is to follow it. It is *man's* laws which are burdensome, not God's.

Shimon
 
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Higher Truth

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Is you Rabbi teaching you Talmud? Is he teaching you how to go on a forum and be-little the beliefs of others? To throw around criticism of other peoples celebrations and make them angry at the Jews by birth? Have you ever heard of Beth Yeshua? It is one of the two 'flagship' synagogues built by one of the founding fathers of the Messianic Jewish faith in America. They ARE the MJAA and IAMCS, the governing bodies of the Messianic Movement. They do not teach these things and act that way there. Should I tell Rabbi Chernov that he is in error? My understanding of Messianic Judaism is fine Shimon. Thanks for your concern.
 
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Higher Truth:

I'm not belittling anyone. I'm simply calling a sin a sin, and will not compromise on that. I cannot declare a sin to no longer be a sin, it's still a sin. If someone takes offense to that it is because they don't like having their sin pointed out, not because they are being "belittled."

I am, of course, a sinner myself. I try to keep the Torah as best as I can, but I mess up sometimes. But the fact that I mess up does not negate my responsibility to keep it, and to teach it.

Shimon
 
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Higher Truth:

They ARE the MJAA and IAMCS, the governing bodies of the Messianic Movement.

I've already told you that my congregation is a member of MJAA and IAMCS. I've also given you the URL to our website.

I've given the scriptural references for everything I've said, but rather than discuss my points on their own merits, you apparently wish instead to attempt to discredit me.

Shimon
 
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Higher Truth:

Here is a statement on the Messianic Bureau International website:

THE CHURCH NEEDS TO RETURN TO ITS ROOTS

Since Messianic Judaism is Jewish, it deems all Jewish people as its siblings. Also, since Christianity professes the Jewish Messiah as their Savior, Messianic Judaism deems all faithful Gentiles as its siblings (and no longer to be pagan Gentiles). This does not mean Messianic Judaism agrees with all the doctrines, traditions, customs or practices of either traditional Judaism or Christianity. We believe it would be the best and is ultimately necessary for all Jewish people to know their Messiah Yeshua, but we do not believe that God has called any Jewish person to become Gentile or Western Christian in custom. Rather, we believe it would be best and is ultimately necessary for Christianity to remove its pagan influences and return to the roots of Judaism, that is, to return to the way of Yeshua as He walked by example and set forth in His entire Word.

http://www.messianic.com/articles/basics.htm

Have I said anything that differs from this?

Shimon
 
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Higher Truth

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Shimon,

I have nothing against you and find some of your posts interesting. You are not speaking in love.Have you noticed that it is you and I talking to each other. Some people have been offended, it appears. I do not want to discredit you. You are an intelligent man, but you have got to pull in the sledgehammer. In the end, we all stand alone before God. Our faith is a personal responsibility. You posted links that are not part of Messianic doctrine. I understand your zealous approach to your new faith, but there are a lot of people watching here, and whether you realize it or not, you a representing Messianic Judaism. I am only asking that you use discretion.
 
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Higher Truth:

You keep saying that I am not "speaking in love." The truth is, if I were not "speaking in love" I would be telling people it's okay to continue to break God's commandments. I'm spreading the truth of His word, the truth that went forth from Jerusalem. If I were not "speaking in love," I wouldn't be here at all.

You're telling me that it's "unloving" to correct someone. On the contrary, Paul tells us to do that very thing:

2 Timothy 4:2
Preach the Word; be prepared in season and out of season; correct, rebuke and encourage–with great patience and careful instruction.

On what basis are we to correct each other? Paul tells us this too:

2 Timothy 3:16
All Scripture is God_breathed and is useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting and training in righteousness

The only scriptures that existed at the time Paul wrote this is the Torah -- there were no "New Testament" scriptures at the time.

Shimon
 
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