New Creature?

justsomeoneugly said:

I have a question. I realize that being "saved" does not make one sin free but if one is filled with the holy spirit and continues to be involved in unchristian behavior, why should I believe there is a holy spirit out there doing anything for anyone? I am talking about christians who continue to do things consistently like gossip, show anger, are petty or unforgiving. How do you explain to me that the holy spirit is in them but they don't change at all? It's one of the things that keeps me from believing in christian dogma.

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Read 1 John 4. People who continue on in sin in the way you're describing aren't saved.

No one has told us to follow other christians.

Joh 21:19 This spake he, signifying by what death he should glorify God. And when he had spoken this, he saith unto him, Follow me.


Adam blamed the woman.

Gen 3:12 And the man said, The woman whom thou gavest to be with me, she gave me of the tree, and I did eat.

Part of the answer I think, is that God changes people bit by bit. Sometimes people resist Him and with some things it takes a long while to change --even when one is aware of a problem in oneself, repents of it etc. it still dfoes'nt mean always that it disappears just like that.
I know that whilst a lot of stuff has changed for the better in me, there's still lots of things where I'm weak or struggle with. Sometimes one isn't even aware of things until God points it out.
I tend to look at it like this:

If someone's involved in a major accident -- their heart's stopped-they've got broken bones-cuts, scratches etc. I would imagine that the doctors get the heart started first, then maybe they fix the bones, then the cuts and scratches (ok, maybe they don't quite do it like that-I'm not a doctor, but do you get my drift). In other words they do the most urgent stuff first.
Well, I think it's a similar thing with the Holy Spirit----He first gives you new life, (like getting your heart going again), then He startsn fixing everything else according to whatnHe sees as most urgent. And it's different for everyone.

Don't know if that helps at all.

testing

I think most of the problem has to do with the crackpots. Crackpots wh alledge to be Christian, but really aren't. Take Jerry Falwell for example, who's your typical fundy crackpot. He claimed to be a Christian, but the Fruits of his spirit begged to differ (there may also have been an undiagnosed mental disorder; probably schitzoaffective disorder or some other mental issue that involves delusions of granduer/persecution). For example, he claimed that hurricane Katrina wasn't a powerful weather pattern, but rather, an act of G-d--a huge ball of rain Almighty G-d hurled down to Louisiana to exact His revenge on sinners living in New Orleans! He also claimed that the 9/11 terrorist attacks weren't caused by 19 Saudi terrorists, but rather by the gay community!
If this kind of thinking isn't evidence of a serious mental illness, I don't know what is!
There are also those pastors who pretend to be Christians, but who really aren't. I have always said that I won't attend a church here the pastor drives a Ferrari.
You will always have those fundies who spew hatered at the gay community and other instances of fornication, but then retire to their bedrooms where they download internet inappropriate contentography in private.

But the Atheist is also at fault.
How?
If Atheists were truly honest with themselves, then they would admit that when they try to look for the good in Christianity, what they're doing is they're actually just looking for the bad apples, without really trying to look for the real Christians. They will say, "I give up! I have been trying to look for good in Christianity, when the only thing I see is hate-mongering and selfishness. Christians are nothing but hypocrites. THey claim to be a new creature in Christ; that the former things have passed away. But I'm not seeing the new creature; I'm just seeing the same old person with a WWJD bumper sticker on his car..." But an honest appraisal of your "search" for the Real Christian isn't really taking place. The Atheist is going out of his way to avoid looking for the real Christians. He has no interest in seeing the real Christian for what he is, because if he were to actually look for the real Christian, he's afraid he will actually find the real Christian. And if he finds real Christians who are new creatures in Christ, then everything he believes about his Atheism will be a lie. And he doesn't want to know he has been lying to himself, now does he? Thus, he keeps his blinders on, selectively looking at the fraudulent, fake Christians, like the Falwell's of this world.

How does the Atheist recover? How can he find the real Christian? The Christian he reads about in the Bible--the Christian that has all the Fruits of the Spirit? The only thing he has to do is take his blinders off. Once he does this, he will note that it's Christians that are feeding the world's poor. He will see that it's not his government that's feeding the homeless, nor is it an Atheist agency that's doing so--it's the church that's out there on the front lines, demonstrating compassion and the Fruits of the Spirit by feeding the poor, the sick; the underrepresented in our society.
When the secular person tells the homeless man to "get a job...", the Christian is likely going to give him spare change, without judging him (the Atheist would likely cast down judgement, thinking to himself, "This bum is just gonna spend my money on drugs anyway, so why should I give him anything?").
Furthermore, compare this forum (mostly Christians) with an Atheist forum. After reviewing both forums, ask yourself if there are new creatures here. Your answer will be self-evident. Walk into a Christian bookstore. Listen to Christian radio. Watch Christian TV. Then compare all three to their secular counterparts. After that, you should have no problem seeing the new creature!!!

Well, if it helps, I'll confess to all of the above; and also note that I have no real idea who is and is not saved.
My personal opinion is that many who believe they are are in for a disappointment. Jesus knows full well who really loves him and who's just braggin.'
You'll never come to the faith if you make your decision based on the Christians you see. For every Francesco d'Asis there are three Francisco de Torquemadas, for every Benedict of Nursia there are several Benedict Arnolds. Focus on Christ. Can you come to believe he has already saved you from eternal death? Do you want to follow him, not a crowd?

justsomeoneugly said:

I am a deist not an atheist. And when I look in those in the bible I see the same thing. David killing someone for their wife. Noah letting his kids see him naked, Peter denies Christ. It's hard to see what christians are talking about when they don't show it (not most, I have seen exceptions).

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Well I didn't say you were an Atheist, but I can see why you thought my post was intended for you. My bad...
But back to the subject.
You listed David and Peter. You can also add hundreds of other names of imperfect people to the list, including Paul.
The only person in the Bible you'd have to exclude from your "list of imperfect people" would be Yeshuakh Meshiakh, or Jesus Christ. Most of us Christians may be new creatures in Christ, but we have yet to attain resurrection with him--the resurrection of the just.

BobW188 said:

Well, if it helps, I'll confess to all of the above; and also note that I have no real idea who is and is not saved.
My personal opinion is that many who believe they are are in for a disappointment. Jesus knows full well who really loves him and who's just braggin.'
You'll never come to the faith if you make your decision based on the Christians you see. For every Francesco d'Asis there are three Francisco de Torquemadas, for every Benedict of Nursia there are several Benedict Arnolds. Focus on Christ. Can you come to believe he has already saved you from eternal death? Do you want to follow him, not a crowd?

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You're correct. When we step into a church or a synagague, we're hypocrites stepping into a room full of more hypocrites.
What separates us and our fellow-hypocrites from those who are not new creatures is we're at war with sin. We have donned the Whole Armor of God. We now know a Peace that transcends all understanding.
(re: Ephesians 6:13)

Yes, I totally agree with the last two posters ----it's what I was trying to say, but they put it far more eloquently than I.

Jesus said He came for sinners not the righteous, for the sick and not the well.
Is there anyone who can be righteous without Christ!

There are nice, caring people, there are class A1 jerks, when the nice caring people become christian, they usually become even nicer more caring people. When the more negative people become christian, they seem to often cherry-pick the more unpleasent parts of the bible to antaganize(sp) you with, these are probably the christians your seeing.

I agree with Holy Roller that you often find what your looking for, expect jerks, find jerks. Its like when you but a new car, look around, every second person seems to be driving one.

I don't think your going to win many atheists to your side Holy Roller, if that was your intension, by bigoted comments about our compassion. I go out of my way to help people in need, and so do many others I know who are not christians. You"re not the only people delivering aid to the sick and the poor, a quick look at secular charities on the web, not to mention the billions our goverments through in, should make it clear that you are not working alone against the worlds misery.

So someoneugly (I doubt it), I think you'll find what you look for, its all in the perspective. Look for nice christians, and you'll be tripping over them, I know, I bump into a ton everyday.

justsomeoneugly said:

I have a question. I realize that being "saved" does not make one sin free but if one is filled with the holy spirit and continues to be involved in unchristian behavior, why should I believe there is a holy spirit out there doing anything for anyone? I am talking about christians who continue to do things consistently like gossip, show anger, are petty or unforgiving. How do you explain to me that the holy spirit is in them but they don't change at all? It's one of the things that keeps me from believing in christian dogma.

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Each and every one of us is still a work in progress - you'll find unfruitful behavior in everybody without exception.

Perhaps instead of focusing on failures you need to pay at least equal attention to where transformation is resulting in prayer soaked bringing of God's healing and mercy to communities - if you know where to look.

If someone showed no sign of transformation at all I would have to question whether they really were putting their faith in Jesus and his agenda rather than their own.

justsomeoneugly said:

I have a question. I realize that being "saved" does not make one sin free but if one is filled with the holy spirit and continues to be involved in unchristian behavior, why should I believe there is a holy spirit out there doing anything for anyone? I am talking about christians who continue to do things consistently like gossip, show anger, are petty or unforgiving. How do you explain to me that the holy spirit is in them but they don't change at all? It's one of the things that keeps me from believing in christian dogma.

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Ah, I don't believe in the whole walk the aisle and being "saved" and then 'woo-hoo, hallelujah' thing. Those who endure to the end shall be saved. They must finish the race and daily pick up their cross and die to self.

Baptism brings one into the saving ark of the Church. The Eucharist is the medicine of immortality (being the body and blood of Christ). The Church makes it possible for those in it to work out their salvation. When those in the Church miss the mark, they have the opportunity to turn away from their sin again. It should never be a stagnant process.

Unfortunately, not everyone in the Church will choose to do what they ought and some will perish. Those who refuse to turn from their sins aren't in possession of 'good fruit' and that is between them and God.

I can't claim that I am saved. My race isn't over yet.

Holy Roller said:

You're correct. When we step into a church or a synagague, we're hypocrites stepping into a room full of more hypocrites.

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Boy, I'm glad I'm not in that church.

justsomeoneugly said:

I am a deist not an atheist. And when I look in those in the bible I see the same thing. David killing someone for their wife. Noah letting his kids see him naked, Peter denies Christ. It's hard to see what christians are talking about when they don't show it (not most, I have seen exceptions).

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Can a newly born baby walk and talk and make decisions? No - being saved is to be born again - born of spirit - rebirth. new.

There are also couple problems with your examples of christianity:
1) In all 3 of your examples you are using - they are prior to the indwelling of the Holy Spirit and the advent of christianity.

2) David was dead wrong - it was pointed out to Him as such and He repented greatly. Peter also repented - his example was that of faith and the weakness of the flesh. In noahs case he didnt "let" them see Him naked - it says one of His sons "uncovered" his nakedness - so it was a wilful act on the part of his son.

3) You are under the false impression that becoming a christian should mean that in an instant we change from those of flesh to completely being of Spirit only. We still have flesh and now have 2 natures - flesh and spirit and growth has to happen just like with little children.

Since no one is inside someone elses heart - how much one is relying on God is unknown - we are changed throughout our lifetime. If God confronted the believer with the full extent of our sinfullness we would fold because its so vast. We are taught slowly and carefully so we can handle it. Change happens in believers - the length of time varies just like maturity levels vary with a child. We are like babies as new believers.

If anything the sinful state still showing shows the desperate need we have for the Savior - not the other way around.

If you want a real example to follow you need to be looking at Christ - not us imperfect flawed sinful beings who equally need His salvation.

I will tell you why. God gives the Holy Spirit to christians so that they will have the power to live a christian life as they can't live it with their human spirit alone. Also, God doesn't force them to apply this power to their life as they can still choose to do bad things and yield to the flesh. Jesus said you will know them by their fruits - is it good fruit or bad fruit? Just because someone says I'm a christian and I got the holy spirit means nothing at all if they don't take up their cross and follow Jesus and live it in reality. In fact, remember when Jesus said that I never knew you to those who cast out devils in his name? They had the power and gifts of the Holy Spirit but never lived it. The Apostle Paul tells us if we have not love and we speak in tongues - its just like a sounding brass and cybal - it means zero then.

Another possibility is that these christians you are talking about - are they new ones? They may be sincere but still have some bad fruit hanging on their spiritual tree. God could be doing a work in them - and this takes time like a plant.

Please don't blame God because their are may be christian imposters in town or new christians still maturing. Hyprocrites won't be going to heaven.