Controversial Music: Is It OK To Listen To It?

cantata said:

Yes, I do. I merely wished to indicate, and I think I have done so, that your comments, like anyone else's, are mere speculation.

That the media cause people to do terrible things has passed into "common sense", but I've never seen any evidence to convince me that it's true. In fact, there's some evidence to the contrary: despite widespread panic about every new form of media over the centuries (cheap novels, music halls, theatre, cinema, videos, the internet), the panicked prophesies of tabloid newspapers have never come to pass. "The masses" didn't explode into riots because of the "penny dreadfuls", and they won't all go out and kill each other because of rap music, either.

Controlled studies aren't necessary. You can just take a glance at human history.

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Russia and Canada both recognize some music, "Emo", as being a bad influence on teens which some believe is correlated to suicide among teenagers so they actively prohibit it where they can. The part of my town where rap is listened to the most just happens to be where most murders and gun shot wounds happen, black men shooting other black men. Maybe its not the rap. Maybe art imitates life. Maybe its a bit of both. The following bit of amusing video hits on our thread.


http://fr.youtube.com/watch?v=hfDJBsxhQ9g&feature=related

Autumnleaf said:

Russia and Canada both recognize some music, "Emo", as being a bad influence on teens which some believe is correlated to suicide among teenagers so they actively prohibit it where they can. The part of my town where rap is listened to the most just happens to be where most murders and gun shot wounds happen, black men shooting other black men. Maybe its not the rap. Maybe art imitates life. Maybe its a bit of both. The following bit of amusing video hits on our thread.

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My point was precisely that there are always these panics, but no one can actually demonstrate that they cause harm. In fact, people hardly ever even do the research, because it's "common sense".

People are far more complicated than "I heard it in a song so I'll do it."

cantata said:

My point was precisely that there are always these panics, but no one can actually demonstrate that they cause harm. In fact, people hardly ever even do the research, because it's "common sense".

People are far more complicated than "I heard it in a song so I'll do it."

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Some are and some are not. Maybe that is the problem. Some people are more suggestible than others.

Autumnleaf said:

Some are and some are not. Maybe that is the problem. Some people are more suggestible than others.

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Perhaps, but you'll notice, as I said above, that everyone thinks it's everyone else who's suggestible and out of control. A lot of that is based on snobbery and racism. Oh, working class children will become axe murderers if they see a violent film, but not my middle class darlings. Oh, black teenagers will shoot one another if they hear rap music, but not my little Caucasian angels.

Then there's the difficulty of studying media effects. For sure, plenty of studies have been done. (Bandura's famous Bobo doll experiment is one example.) However, in the essay "The dangerous psycho-logic of media 'effects'" in the excellent Ill Effects (ed. Baker & Petley), Ian Vine writes, "Even if we set aside all-important questions about how we actually assign meanings to the coded signals, the mere fact that we choose to attend to messages highlights how the recipient's active mind also enters into the causal side of the equation." (Author's emphases.) That is to say, one's own perception of the media in question is important.

"Whichever Behaviorist methods are used in quantitative studies of media impact, the central problem remains. If subjects' own perceptions of programmes are not directly measured, their influence on actions must be ignored or just assumed. Yet the main thrust of the hermeneutic perspective on responsible agency is that interpretation processes themselves have profoundly complex causal determinants, reflecting idiosyncratic as well as socially shared experiences, desires, and beliefs. Consequent behaviour can neither be predicted nor understood without reference to these." Which is to say, a behaviourist approach to studying media effects isn't going to get us very far if we don't look at how people actually think about the media in question.

In other words, as I say, people are complicated!

First of all,

BLACK METAL AND GOTIC EXTREME FTW!

But seriously, that question is very subjective. Some people music has no effect, others very much so. And whether or not listening to that music in the first place is based very much around your own personnal beliefs.

I personnaly play in a band so I do play and write alot of black metal and gothic extreme metal. As a result of that I do have certain "satanic" beliefs in my ideology now.

It all depends on how you approach music.

Fin12 said:

I personnaly play in a band so I do play and write alot of black metal and gothic extreme metal. As a result of that I do have certain "satanic" beliefs in my ideology now.

It all depends on how you approach music.

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Indeed - and I would add that I should imagine you didn't just wake up one day and find you were a satanist. You had to do some thinking and interpreting in order to decide to encompass those beliefs in your worldview. And it's the same with everyone else. Music and films and books and newspapers don't just programme us into becoming certain individuals. We listen to, watch, and read them actively. We interpret and consider. Merely seeing a violent act on television, or hearing about one in music, will not make one violent. There are lots of mental processes which need to happen first, and if the ultimate consequence is violent behaviour, I'd warrant that there were lots of other determining factors involved too.

cantata said:

Can you cite some actual evidence to back this assertion?

Correlational studies won't do, I'm afraid.

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Advertisements for children's toys and cigarette commercials. The United States no longer allows cigarette commericals on television because of their "noted" influence to promote/glamorize smoking. Kid's shows which were once sponsored by one company, no longer may have sole sponsorships, because of what the Federal government saw as possible advertisement influences of such show's hosts.
By the way, I do miss the cigarette commercials.

LittleNipper said:

Advertisements for children's toys and cigarette commercials. The United States no longer allows cigarette commericals on television because of their "noted" influence to promote/glamorize smoking. Kid's shows which were once sponsored by one company, no longer may have sole sponsorships, because of what the Federal government saw as possible advertisement influences of such show's hosts.
By the way, I do miss the cigarette commercials.

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Music lyrics ≠ advertising.

There are, of course, exceptions, but they are explicit.

There is no doubt that media have effects on people - or advertising would be a waste of money - but that's different from the claim that a teenager hears some black guys rapping about shooting each other and will therefore go out and pop a cap in their friend's ass. I'm sure that listening to any music will have effects on people, but they are not always the effects that tabloid newspapers screech about.

cantata said:

Perhaps, but you'll notice, as I said above, that everyone thinks it's everyone else who's suggestible and out of control. A lot of that is based on snobbery and racism. Oh, working class children will become axe murderers if they see a violent film, but not my middle class darlings. Oh, black teenagers will shoot one another if they hear rap music, but not my little Caucasian angels.

Then there's the difficulty of studying media effects. For sure, plenty of studies have been done. (Bandura's famous Bobo doll experiment is one example.) However, in the essay "The dangerous psycho-logic of media 'effects'" in the excellent Ill Effects (ed. Baker & Petley), Ian Vine writes, "Even if we set aside all-important questions about how we actually assign meanings to the coded signals, the mere fact that we choose to attend to messages highlights how the recipient's active mind also enters into the causal side of the equation." (Author's emphases.) That is to say, one's own perception of the media in question is important.

"Whichever Behaviorist methods are used in quantitative studies of media impact, the central problem remains. If subjects' own perceptions of programmes are not directly measured, their influence on actions must be ignored or just assumed. Yet the main thrust of the hermeneutic perspective on responsible agency is that interpretation processes themselves have profoundly complex causal determinants, reflecting idiosyncratic as well as socially shared experiences, desires, and beliefs. Consequent behaviour can neither be predicted nor understood without reference to these." Which is to say, a behaviourist approach to studying media effects isn't going to get us very far if we don't look at how people actually think about the media in question.

In other words, as I say, people are complicated!

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Its a fact that around 10 percent of the population is prone to suggestion. Hypnotists rely on this for their stagecraft. Of that 10 percent who knows how many will be prone to violent suggestion under the right circumstances. ie Drug use while immersed in a violent gang culture. People are complicated but some of the factors which influence their behavior can easily be classified as positive or negative.

Autumnleaf said:

Its a fact that around 10 percent of the population is prone to suggestion. Hypnotists rely on this for their stagecraft. Of that 10 percent who knows how many will be prone to violent suggestion under the right circumstances. ie Drug use while immersed in a violent gang culture. People are complicated but some of the factors which influence their behavior can easily be classified as positive or negative.

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Their have been no psychological studies that have linked a positive connection between a particular style of music and street violence.

Rap = street violence, this is why it is wrong.

Among the sectors of the rap community which cause violence, their is always a criminal history, poverty, previous exposure to abuse, previous exposure to organised crime, previous exposure to gang culture, lack of role models, lack of vent for stress.

Thousands of factors, that could be argued the cause of street violence.

Suggestability works when their is no difference between choice A and choice B. Once their are consequences involved, things get different.

Also Stage hypnotists usually use props. Hypnosis cannot make you do something you don't want to do, example: embarress yourself in public.

Yes lets keep blaming music, not the real issues. That way the politicians and our society wont be faced with the oh so horrible task of actually trying to solve them. /sarcasm.

As for me, I don't worry about it. I listen to what I want to listen to.

LittleNipper said:

Well, I loved Simon & Garfunkel and Moody Blues. The lyrics and music were great, but also very humanistic or "New Age" with regard to the values being presented. I recongnized the fact when they were wrong but liked their music anyway...

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I LOVE Simon and Garfunkel. One of the things I appreciate most about them is their deep empathy for those who are often forgotten by the rest of us ("The Boxer", "A Poem on the Underground Wall", and "A Most Peculiar Man" spring to mind). Their lyrics are often not aligned with traditional Christian values, but I still find them very wise and insightful.

I listen to a lot of music like theirs because I appreciate differing takes on the world. I don't like music that is offensive just for the sake of it (and I am coming to despise the kind of cookie-cutter rock that is on the popular stations now), but I am not opposed to controversy from someone who has talent and something thoughtful to sing about.

jmverville said:

Is it OK for a person, any person, who does not have the ideological beliefs of the music just to listen to it anyways because they like it?

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It's not good asking for a simple yes or no answer to questions like these, because, at least the way I see it, this is not a question where one answer fits all. Basically, it's a question you have to answer for yourself. Examine the content of the songs and ask yourself what are you getting out of the music, and conversely, what are you sacrificing or what negativity is the music causing. If you feel uncomfortable or guilty about the music, avoid it. If you think it is luring you down a path you don't wish to travel, get rid of it. However, if you feel the positive benefits outweigh the negative, or that the music doesn't influence you in upsetting ways at all, then listen and enjoy.

I listen to music that essentially supports evil for evil's sake. I sometimes even listen to music that is blatantly racist.

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I guess in a situation like this, you need to examine your motives. Why does this music appeal? Do you have racist feelings, or maybe anti-social feelings that you can't express, and is the music doing that for you? Even though you're a Christian, you're drawn to music that you say supports evil for evil's sake. Why is this fascinating to you? I think it would be valuable to do some reflection about the needs that are being met by the music, rather than simply decide yes or no about listening to it. Maybe you need a voice or want expression for your emotions. Anyway, if you feel that the music isn't what is best for you, give it up and replace those needs with something else. If you think you can continue balancing your beliefs and the music, then have fun with it.

There are a lot of people who feel the way you do. I met a lot of Christians over the years who have listened to death metal and my preferred genres of goth and industrial (and Marilyn Manson, which to this day makes me happy ). A lot of them felt it was important to understand those bands and the scenes associated with them, and many said that music brought them joy and fit them well without corrupting them. If that is where you're at, then I don't think you have to worry about changing. I know several Christians who would never sit down to listen to Christian music either. It's just not their thing whatsoever, and I think that's okay.