Catholics dont stop being Catholic at the voting booth.

Michie · Aug 21, 2008

Real Change

In eight of the last nine presidential elections, the crucial Catholic vote has picked the winner. And in what is shaping up to be another close election, Americas 69 million Catholics are again likely to hold the key not only to the White House, but to a great number of other races as well.

However, before we can settle the question How did Catholics vote in November? Catholics must decide How should we vote in November?

The bishops of the United States recently stated, The Churchs obligation to participate in shaping the moral character of society is a requirement of our faith.

As Catholics, they said, we should be guided more by our moral convictions than by our attachment to a political party or interest group. And at the top of the list of Catholic moral convictions, the bishops put defending the inviolable sanctity of human life from the moment of conception until natural death.

Continued- http://article.nationalreview.com/?q=MjQ2NzVmZTI1OWQ4NmI3MDYzNjQ4NDk3NTdhMDBkOWU

benedictaoo · Aug 21, 2008

"But, but... I'm not pro abortion, I just believe in Roe vrs Wade..."

I wouldn't dream of voting for a "non" pro abortion, but supporting Roe v Wade candidate.

2Cosmic2Charlie · Aug 21, 2008

As Catholics,” they said, “we should be guided more by our moral convictions than by our attachment to a political party or interest group.” And at the top of the list of Catholic moral convictions, the bishops put “defending the inviolable sanctity of human life from the moment of conception until natural death.”

For the recond some aspects of ensuring the defensive of life from conception to natural death that I consider when voting

1) Ensuring the govement doesn't use the military in an unjust an immoral way thus killing people needlessly.

2) Ensuring everyone has access to good health care so they don't die before their time.

3) Ensuring that workers can organize and nogoicate from a position of strength thus assuring they do not suffer the well documented health issues associated with poverty

4) Ensuring that the public school system is the best in the world so people can get good job and not starve before their time.

5) Providing a balanced ecomony ensuring that people aren't ground into the dirt by global companies and the super rich

6) Ensuring that people have a dignified retirement after a lifetime of work

Just some of the things a faithful Catholic needs to consider in the voting booth.

lionroar0 · Aug 21, 2008

2Cosmic2Charlie said:
As Catholics, they said, we should be guided more by our moral convictions than by our attachment to a political party or interest group. And at the top of the list of Catholic moral convictions, the bishops put defending the inviolable sanctity of human life from the moment of conception until natural death.

For the recond some aspects of ensuring the defensive of life from conception to natural death that I consider when voting

1) Ensuring the govement doesn't use the military in an unjust an immoral way thus killing people needlessly.

2) Ensuring everyone has access to good health care so they don't die before their time.

3) Ensuring that workers can organize and nogoicate from a position of strength thus assuring they do not suffer the well documented health issues associated with poverty

4) Ensuring that the public school system is the best in the world so people can get good job and not starve before their time.

5) Providing a balanced ecomony ensuring that people aren't ground into the dirt by global companies and the super rich

6) Ensuring that people have a dignified retirement after a lifetime of work

Just some of the things a faithful Catholic needs to consider in the voting booth.

Yep. People shouldn't vote this way or that way solely because of one issue.

Peace

benedictaoo · Aug 21, 2008

Just some of the things a faithful Catholic needs to consider in the voting booth

These are things faithful Americans of all beliefs and walks of life need to concern themselves with but you know what? If we are a people who stand for justice and the American way... which is justice for all... if the Denom's IYO are the peeps who stand for the "American way" more than any other party, then can you please tell me, if they are all that on the social justice front, why abortion? Just what do they have against the unborn? Why can't they protect them under the law? Just why do they "believe in" Roe V Wade?

Will I be getting an answer from you Charlie? I mean really, if the Denom's are all that on the social justice of it all, why the heck abortion?

benedictaoo · Aug 21, 2008

2Cosmic2Charlie · Aug 21, 2008

benedictaoo said:
Will I be getting an answer from you Charlie?

No you won't

If you can't keep a civil tougue on your head -

(Refering to the Demcratic party as Demon's is both intentatonal provocative and childish - and BTW if that's the best you've got the Republicans are going to get beaten into the dirt in November)

- I really don't want to talk to you

benedictaoo · Aug 21, 2008

I didn't mean to nor did I spell Demons... it was one of my typos and I meant to spell demo's as short hand, so.

Anyway... yeah, I didn't think you couldn't answer why the do good, save the world democrats would get behind legalized murder. That contradicts all that they say they stand for, which is the little guy.

Fantine · Aug 21, 2008

There's only one way to show both parties that the Catholic vote counts.

It's too late to do it in 2008, but perhaps in 2012.

Find a Catholic standard bearer to run for President on a third party ticket whose policies mirror the USCCB's to the letter.

Encourage all Catholics to vote for that candidate instead of a major party candidate.

And whatever he/she pulls, be it 5% or 10% or 15%, use it as a bargaining chip to tell the major parties what kind of candidate you want.

That's what the Right to Life Party in NY did. If a candidate adopted their priorities 100%, they endorsed him (and Right to Lifers would vote for him on the RTL line.) If he only adopted 99% (e.g. abortion for rape or incest, stem cell research OK) then they endorsed someone else, usually some beleaguered mother of 10 from Hicksville who knew nothing about any other issues....

Nevertheless, she got her RTL votes, and the other candidates were left shaking their heads.

The RTL Party eventually got the third line on the NY ballot--ahead of Conservative, Liberal, Socialist Worker, Green, etc.

And politicians came to them bowing and scraping on bended knee to get an endorsement.

benedictaoo · Aug 21, 2008

then they endorsed someone else, usually some beleaguered mother of 10 from Hicksville who knew nothing about any other issues....

I find that insulting and demeaning. As if to say to be 100% pro life you have to be a woman hick with many children who is beleaguered.

Is there an answer? Why stand for abortion? Really, why do they have to? Because it's what the people want? Well 70% people want to drill off shore due to financial hardships and we can't serve the will of 70% of the people who's "life is at risk" (one of the arguments for allowing abortion, the financial stress can put woman at risk) because of a supposed greater good, the planet needing to be saved. But the baby, he is expendable, no greater good can come from him or her and he is not as valuable as the planet. It's not like the planet was made for the baby to live on it or anything- the baby was made for the plant to serve it and since he can't or is hardship, he's gotta go, I guess. (Roll eyes)

Sad indeed. I have no idea just how and why any party would get behind this issue. Do you have an idea why? They can't very well call themselves the compassion, lovable one when you get behind legalised murdering of babies.

Fantine · Aug 21, 2008

In the first place, "Hicksville" is part of metropolitan NYC.

Secondly, I respect mothers of 10 (and mothers of 1.)

But if you are running for public office, and you agree to answer a newspaper questionnaire, and you are asked, "How will you keep the inflation rate down?" and "What should our energy policy be?" and you answer to each question, "I believe that the unborn have a right to life," then I'm sorry, but you shouldn't be running. If you don't have an hour or two to educate yourself about the issues when you are running for Governor (for example) then you are beleaguered.

I thought the RTL Party was a good concept, but if they didn't support someone in one of the major parties, the candidates they fielded were laughable.

Or, in Biblical terms, they were like people who showed up at the wedding without their wedding garment.

Sphinx777 · Aug 21, 2008

A Catholic Political Party?

:angel:

Fish and Bread · Aug 21, 2008

benedictaoo said:
These are things faithful Americans of all beliefs and walks of life need to concern themselves with but you know what? If we are a people who stand for justice and the American way... which is justice for all... if the [Democrats] IYO are the peeps who stand for the "American way" more than any other party, then can you please tell me, if they are all that on the social justice front, why abortion? Just what do they have against the unborn? Why can't they protect them under the law? Just why do they "believe in" Roe V Wade?

Will I be getting an answer from you Charlie? I mean really, if the [Democrats] are all that on the social justice of it all, why the heck abortion?

One of the best and the worst aspects of politics is that it involves building coalitions. It's one of the best because it brings people together and brings us closer to being unified with one another, but one of the worst because it sometimes makes such strange bedfellows that people can feel forced to vote for people who they really strongly agree with on some things and really strongly disagree with on others, essentially selecting one of two "packages", with each package representing certain different things they are grievously opposed to.

Due to the Democrats' long record of standing up for the dispossessed, including economic low-class communities and racial minorities, it was a natural thing to include the new wave of people advocating for the rights of women into the Democratic coalition. It fit well into the motif of wanting equality and basic rights, freedoms, and necessities of life for everyone -- essentially a platform that upheld the dignity of life.

But the feminist movement had an added component to it that these other groups didn't have, which was the abortion question. Many feminists felt strongly that it was offensive to their dignity as human beings to, as they describe it, have a decision that affected their bodies taken away from them. Of course, many existing parts of the Democratic coalition, like Roman Catholics (Who were, believe it or not a key part of the Democratic Party that's been gradually peeling off -- remember, the only three Catholics to be nominated by a major party for President were Democrats, and the Democratic Party almost always got the majority of the Catholic vote prior to Bush) differed on the issue. Rather than considering it a social justice issue, they considered it the taking of human life. And that's the crux of the matter -- many pro-choicers consider abortion an issue involving the dignity of life of the woman whereas most pro-lifers consider abortion an issue involving the dignity of the life the fetus.

Most pro-choicers think abortion is a social justice issue, just in a different way from pro-lifers do. It's not a straight disagreement on the larger principle of whether life should be protected and has dignity -- it's more of a disagreement over the definition of when life begins and whether abortion is fundamentally a question of the dignity of the fetus or the dignity of the woman.

As I've said many times before, I'm personally pro-life, so I hope no one takes this as me being anything other than that, I'm just trying to answer the question posed in a way that's fair to both sides and doesn't mischaracterize anyone.

Fantine · Aug 21, 2008

This article takes a fond look back at the NY RTL Party, which was on the ballot from 1978-2002.

[FONT=Times New Roman, Times, serif] Few party members or those who ran on the line ever believed they could win, especially on a statewide level. But that rarely has been their goal. Rather, it has been to remind people that this issue is still alive and still paramount, and to show politicians it is of grave importance to many voters. As Ken Diem, chair of the RTL party, puts it: from 1978 to 2002, you could not vote in New York State "without seeing the baby on the ballot."[/FONT]

http://www.nationalreview.com/fitton/fitton012403.asp

And if you really believed that pro-life was the only important issue, and the pro-life candidate was someone you would be embarrassed to vote for for dogcatcher (as so many of them are) if they were on the RTL line also you could vote for them on that line so that they would know that by no means were you aligning yourself with most of their miserable positions....

benedictaoo · Aug 22, 2008

Fantine, Pro life ppl aren't against a good economy and helping ppl who for what ever reason can not help themselves. You have deflected from my question and crated a false issue, that Pro life ppl, good Catholics who listen to their bishops about forming their conscious doesn't care about the economy. That's rather absurd to think it's either all those other issues or pro life.

And the Republican party isn't against a good economy, they just have a different approach to it that you disagree with and that can be respected. We can challenge and debate that because it's an issue that is not infallibly defined as one party over the other definitively having all the correct solutions, so you and Charlie have created a false excuse to forget about Catholicism at the booth.

Abortion and infacide contracts all that you all say an American needs to concern themselves with. So why in the world does the Demos, the walk on water, do good, save the planet party get behind it? Can you tell me? ... since it's they who claim they are the only party who cares about the human race, why not babies? Do you have an answer for why they "believe in" RvW?

Fantine said:
In the first place, "Hicksville" is part of metropolitan NYC.

Secondly, I respect mothers of 10 (and mothers of 1.)

But if you are running for public office, and you agree to answer a newspaper questionnaire, and you are asked, "How will you keep the inflation rate down?" and "What should our energy policy be?" and you answer to each question, "I believe that the unborn have a right to life," then I'm sorry, but you shouldn't be running. If you don't have an hour or two to educate yourself about the issues when you are running for Governor (for example) then you are beleaguered.

I thought the RTL Party was a good concept, but if they didn't support someone in one of the major parties, the candidates they fielded were laughable.

Or, in Biblical terms, they were like people who showed up at the wedding without their wedding garment.

benedictaoo · Aug 22, 2008

Fish, that's an opinion and I thank you for it.

My point is, this is not 1970 anymore, we know exactly what abortion is and what it does to women, it is far more damaging then having a baby is. That has been proven hands down. Why would any politician get behind and "believe in" murdering a baby as a mother's right to do?

If you are the party who is all about rights, why are you the party who is against the baby's right to life? I don't understand this. They are the party who is the do gooders, so why believe in a right that has damaged women and killed babies over the last 30 years?

Don't you think it's time in this day and age to really talk about the truth and the facts about this "right"? What it really is and what it really does? Why would you has a non pro abortion, RvW believing politician still believe in it?

Fish and Bread said:
One of the best and the worst aspects of politics is that it involves building coalitions. It's one of the best because it brings people together and brings us closer to being unified with one another, but one of the worst because it sometimes makes such strange bedfellows that people can feel forced to vote for people who they really strongly agree with on some things and really strongly disagree with on others, essentially selecting one of two "packages", with each package representing certain different things they are grievously opposed to.

Due to the Democrats' long record of standing up for the dispossessed, including economic low-class communities and racial minorities, it was a natural thing to include the new wave of people advocating for the rights of women into the Democratic coalition. It fit well into the motif of wanting equality and basic rights, freedoms, and necessities of life for everyone -- essentially a platform that upheld the dignity of life.

But the feminist movement had an added component to it that these other groups didn't have, which was the abortion question. Many feminists felt strongly that it was offensive to their dignity as human beings to, as they describe it, have a decision that affected their bodies taken away from them. Of course, many existing parts of the Democratic coalition, like Roman Catholics (Who were, believe it or not a key part of the Democratic Party that's been gradually peeling off -- remember, the only three Catholics to be nominated by a major party for President were Democrats, and the Democratic Party almost always got the majority of the Catholic vote prior to Bush) differed on the issue. Rather than considering it a social justice issue, they considered it the taking of human life. And that's the crux of the matter -- many pro-choicers consider abortion an issue involving the dignity of life of the woman whereas most pro-lifers consider abortion an issue involving the dignity of the life the fetus.

Most pro-choicers think abortion is a social justice issue, just in a different way from pro-lifers do. It's not a straight disagreement on the larger principle of whether life should be protected and has dignity -- it's more of a disagreement over the definition of when life begins and whether abortion is fundamentally a question of the dignity of the fetus or the dignity of the woman.

As I've said many times before, I'm personally pro-life, so I hope no one takes this as me being anything other than that, I'm just trying to answer the question posed in a way that's fair to both sides and doesn't mischaracterize anyone.

MikeK · Aug 22, 2008

Teehee, hi Benny! I missed you!

ShannonMcCatholic · Aug 22, 2008

Catholics can be Catholic at the voting booth by voting for someone other than either of the two boobs running for the main parties. They can vote for someone who has the desire to protect and serve the weakest and voiceless among us (unborn, homeless, poor, the imprisoned) as well as desiring to take steps to strengthen the dollar as well as being truly good stewards with the earth and her resources as well as thinking that owever it's done- that American heathcare needs to be available and affordable to all.

I wish Catholics would just collectively refuse to stand for two party politics any more, and quit settling for the lesser of two evils. There's not much Catholic-ness in that.

WordofGod · Aug 22, 2008

I will vote for the one that I believe is closest to the Truth, the Life and the Way.

That will be difficult since the world rejects the Truth
and

many prefer death as the answer instead of Life.

and who live's as Christ's way and who lives their own way?

I'm not running, the Pope isn't running, Margret Thatcher isn't running.

I thank God that he is in control.

We get to vote only for the one we believe will be the least evil.

I thank God that he is in control. :crossrc:

benedictaoo · Aug 22, 2008

ShannonMcCatholic said:
Catholics can be Catholic at the voting booth by voting for someone other than either of the two boobs running for the main parties. They can vote for someone who has the desire to protect and serve the weakest and voiceless among us (unborn, homeless, poor, the imprisoned) as well as desiring to take steps to strengthen the dollar as well as being truly good stewards with the earth and her resources as well as thinking that owever it's done- that American heathcare needs to be available and affordable to all.

I wish Catholics would just collectively refuse to stand for two party politics any more, and quit settling for the lesser of two evils. There's not much Catholic-ness in that.

I totally agree Shannon. BTW how are you? Well I hope. I've praying for you and yours.

The problem with that is, as it stands at least, is a vote for an independent who ever he/she may be is a vote for the one you don't want, IMO.

My vote for McCain will be more a vote against the non pro abortion but RvW believing Obama. (How's that for a contradiction, I'm not for abortion, but I'm for RvW...

Anyway, remember the daddy Bush and Peruo? (sp?) He got in there just to screw up Bush because he was a business revival and those were votes that would have gone to the daddy Bush. That's how Clinton got in and if we all remember correctly, we have the lovely partial birth abortion because of Clinton and now we have to do a "born alive" protection because of that. So.

We really have to do all we can to keep the pro abortion... excuse me, non pro abortion but RvW believing politicians out because the abortions laws are going to expand once again as they did under Clinton.

But that's not my area of serious confusion. Why are they even for it if they are the ones who stand up for the little guy, the poor, the down trodden?

They even stand up for a violent criminals right to life, so why not the unborn? I just don't get it. Seems to me the mean ole, uncaring, selfish, greedy, rich republicans would be for that one. It's just seems out of character for them to be for this.

Catholics dont stop being Catholic at the voting booth.

Well-Known Member

Legend

2Cosmic2Charlie

Guest

Coffee drinker

Legend

Legend

2Cosmic2Charlie

Guest

Legend

Dona Quixote

Legend

Dona Quixote

Well-Known Member

Dona nobis pacem

Dona Quixote

Legend

Legend

Traditionalist Catholic

I swallowed a bug

True LOVE never Fails and Casts out fear.

Legend

Similar threads

Catholics dont stop being Catholic at the voting booth.