Periods on Wedding Day and the PILL

Monica child of God 1 · Aug 18, 2008

Okay, here is the description of another birth control pill:

Yaz prevents ovulation (the release of an egg from an ovary) and also cause changes in your cervical and uterine lining, making it harder for sperm to reach the uterus and harder for a fertilized egg to attach to the uterus.

http://www.drugs.com/yaz.html

and another

Ethinyl estradiol and norgestrel [Lo/Ovral] contains a combination of female hormones that prevent ovulation (the release of an egg from an ovary). This medication also causes changes in your cervical mucus and uterine lining, making it harder for sperm to reach the uterus and harder for a fertilized egg to attach to the uterus.

http://www.drugs.com/mtm/lo-ovral.html

and a hormonal ring

NuvaRing contains ethinyl estradiol and etonogestrel, a combination of female hormones that prevent ovulation (the release of an egg from an ovary). They also cause changes in your cervical mucus and uterine lining, making it harder for sperm to reach the uterus and harder for a fertilized egg to attach to the uterus.

The science is quite clear.

M.

Gwenyfur · Aug 18, 2008

Bride to Be:
Here are some resources for you to learn more about G-d's ideas of birth control:
http://www.gotquestions.org/birth-control.html
http://www.christiancontraception.com/foreword.php

and this site has information that covers most of your questions...not just birth control
http://www.themarriagebed.com/pages/biology/birthcontrol.shtml

Remember, in marriage the Husband in your head...it is he who is responsible for answering to G-d for how he's handled his family. If he has faith based concerns against birth control, there are plenty of completely natural birth controls available. But I would urge you to consider your faith and your trust not only in G-d but in the man you plan to marry. If you do not have that trust...then wait to get married, otherwise you're baking a nice recipe for disaster...

Gwenyfur · Aug 18, 2008

Basileus said:
I don't usually post here anymore, but I have post to respectfully disagree with your post Choirfiend. Your statements are too broad and general. Contraceptives is a VERY large category with a multitude of different kinds that act different ways.

Surely, an Orthodox Christian is not going to their Physician and say "Give me the Abortifacient contraceptive". To broadly categorize ALL contraceptives as Abortifacients is misleading and irresponsible and fearmongering. There is a danger in starting the contraceptive AFTER the woman is pregnant. That is why a pregnancy test is usually administered before starting the Pill.

I should know, I am an RN. The real dangers in oral contraceptive agents, or even the Norplant (under the skin) is the increase incidence of higher blood pressure and even blood clots in the user.

There is an Orthodox way to approach this. That is why the Church has allowed Oral Contraception. To imply otherwise is to doubt the Church.

not to mention links to higher rates of infertility, cervical and uterine cancer...and and and...

seashale76 · Aug 18, 2008

I got side effects from the pill. I wasn't quite myself and it was a decidedly unpleasant experience that I will never again repeat. I tried a few different ones with the same results. I went off the pill and I was normal again after a few months. I'm not going to condemn your decision either way, but be aware that there is a significant portion of the population that does get side effects.

If your period comes early, then it comes early. There isn't much you can do if it does. It won't be the end of the world. Trust me, a small delay in conjugal activities is nothing to fret over.

However, I see your point. Severe cramps and hormone surges aren't exactly 'you' either are they?

As for your fiance's attitude, I'd let him know that he's making you have some sort of Jezebel complex and needs to get off the holier than thou high horse. Purity and virginity is a wonderful thing (my husband and I were virgins when we married), but, forgive me for saying this, he seems to only be caring about himself. It's a lack of maturity. Of course, I'd also wonder why he couldn't see a spiritual father who is married for advice? (I hope none of that sounded mean, but this is the time to be blunt with your fiance. Hash this out before marriage.)

rusmeister · Aug 18, 2008

Basileus said:
There is an Orthodox way to approach this. That is why the Church has allowed Oral Contraception. To imply otherwise is to doubt the Church.

What Choirfiend said. The Church does NOT "allow" contraception. A priest may grant economia in EXTRAORDINARY circumstances - but it's not up to you, on your own, to decide your 'extraordinariness'. Everyone wants exceptions for themselves, so that ought to be what we distrust the most.

It's fine that you're an RN, Basileus - I'm sure you know something about this. But on its relation to Church teaching, take what Monica and Choirfiend are saying seriously. Many things are biologically possible that are not spiritually OK.

Bride-to-Be, you should seek out a parish priest - but neither should you discount what this monk is saying to you. If he's canonical, then he CAN tell you what the Church teaches and what spiritual consequences your actions could have. He may not be able to judge peculiar medical problems, but in general, he should know Church teaching.

In Orthodoxy, we don't talk about what we like or what we prefer - we talk about what's right or wrong, what's sin and what pleases God.

Basileus · Aug 18, 2008

To get BACK on topic. B-To-B, mentioned that she gets very uncomfortable monthly symptoms. As stated in your links, it IS acceptable to take the Pill if contraception was not the primary motive. A low dose Pill, VERY low dose, would help her immensely. Especially, with all this pressure she is now facing.

I did not see where Oral Contraceptives was actually forbidden!!!

They now have a Pill where "Aunt Flo" visits you only 4 times a year!!!!!!

As far as the thickening of the Uterine wall. It is soooo temp. My friend Heather stopped the Pill after, like, 18 years, then after getting married, became preggers the next month!

B-to-B needs to be counseled to go and see proper Counselors. Her Parish Priest/Matushka, Physician/GYN, someone she trusts.

The Fiance needs to speak to someone closer to the real thing. A Parish Priest (30's), some other recently married men, and even older married men.
I am also concerned that Fiance dude is a little controlling!

This "Pill Argument" belongs in another thread.

One other thing...Imagine...with all are Fasting...imagine how many Orthodox Pregnancies there would really be???? If Abstinence from Relations wasn't included...which allows abstinence from the Pill...there would be many more Orthodox Children.

Byzantine Girl · Aug 18, 2008

choirfiend said:
Birth control pills are routinely described as "contraceptives", that is, things that prevent conception, the beginning of a new human life. But in fact birth control pills sometimes act as "abortifacients", things that cause abortion.
Birth control pills act in three basic ways:

They suppress ovulation, that is, they prevent the woman's body from releasing an egg.

They thicken the woman's cervical mucus, which makes it more difficult for sperm to reach the egg.

They alter the lining of the uterus so that the zygote (fertilized egg, the first stage in the life of a human being) cannot implant. The developing baby receives his oxygen and nutrition through the uterus, so if the zygote-baby cannot implant, he starves to death. This is, therefore, an abortion.

So, even if you don't intend to kill a baby, if it happens, then you are guilty of abortion? If I accidentally overdose on my medication, am I guilty of committing suicide? I think intent has to play a part here. Sorry, but this sounds like Catholic guilt!

Monica child of God 1 · Aug 18, 2008

Talking with a parish priest would be a good move. It is not unusual for a engaged couple to have difficulty over these issues. This is just the beginning of thinking not as a single but as a package deal

The most important thing is to approach marriage as purely as possible. Not forcing anything or doing stuff behind your beloved's back (mentioned in another of B2Bs threads). You all need to learn how to work out this kind of thing. Listen to your fiance. Be honest with him. Seek counsel from someone you both trust.

As an aside, I would not assume that a monastic has no experience in this area. You never know for sure what a monastic's life was like before being tonsured. Divorced, widowed and formerly worldly people become monastics. Further, they have more opportunity to spend time with God than we do in the world whether they take full advantage of it or not. There can be a depth of insight that shouldn't be discounted. Some of the best marital advice I have ever received came from an abbess.

M.

Monica child of God 1 · Aug 18, 2008

Byzantine Girl said:
So, even if you don't intend to kill a baby, if it happens, then you are guilty of abortion? If I accidentally overdose on my medication, am I guilty of committing suicide? I think intent has to play a part here. Sorry, but this sounds like Catholic guilt!

"Wherefore I pray thee, have mercy upon me and forgive my transgressions both voluntary and involuntary, of word and of deed, of knowledge and of ignorance"

I am not speaking for choirfiend, but I will say that I think only God can judge culpability. If someone unknowingly takes a medication that causes spontaneous abortion that seems to fall under the category of sin committed "unknowingly" or "in ignorance." But one knows that the possibility of abortion could occur, that it is a function of the drug in itself, that seems to be another thing all together. But both are "sin" in some sense--the fallenness of the world or consious willful transgression. The perfection of God is what we are called to even though we fall short. Just my opinion.

M.

forgiveable · Aug 18, 2008

So how did it turn out? The wedding I mean ?

Byzantine Girl · Aug 18, 2008

Monica said:
"Wherefore I pray thee, have mercy upon me and forgive my transgressions both voluntary and involuntary, of word and of deed, of knowledge and of ignorance"

I am not speaking for choirfiend, but I will say that I think only God can judge culpability. If someone unknowingly takes a medication that causes spontaneous abortion that seems to fall under the category of "unknowingly" or "in ignorance." But one knows that the possibility of abortion could occur, that it is a function of the drug in itself, that seems to be another thing all together. Just my opinion.

M.

It is my understanding that abortion is a willful act, much like murder is a willful act, but manslaughter is not. Of course, I have my serious doubts about the pill actually causing "spontaneous abortions" to begin with, but....anyway you are right....only God can judge. God bless!

Monica child of God 1 · Aug 18, 2008

Byzantine Girl said:
It is my understanding that abortion is a willful act, much like murder is a willful act, but manslaughter is not. Of course, I have my serious doubts about the pill actually causing "spontaneous abortions" to begin with, but....anyway you are right....only God can judge. God bless!

This is a prayer for a woman who has had a miscarriage from the Book of Needs. It may seem harsh but keep in mind our understanding of sin as a wound to the soul and an effect of the fallenness of the world. You pretty much have to lay aside the Western view of sin altogether:

"0 Master, Lord our God, Who was born of the Holy Theotokos and Ever-Virgin Mary, and Who, as an infant, lay in the manger: According to Your great mercy, be merciful to Your servant, N., who is in sin, having been involved in the loss of a life, whether voluntary or involuntary, for she has miscarried that which was conceived in her. Forgive her transgressions, both voluntary and involuntary, and protect her from every snare of the Devil. Cleanse her stain and heal her infirmities. And grant to her, 0 Lover of Mankind, health and strength of soul and body. Guard her with a shining Angel from all assaults of the unseen demons; Yea, 0 Lord, from sickness and infirmity. Purify her from bodily uncleanness and the various troubles within her womb. By Your many mercies lead her up in her humbled body from the bed on which she lies. For we all have been born in sins and transgressions, and all of us are defiled in Your sight, 0 Lord. Therefore, with fear we cry out and say: Look down from heaven and behold the feebleness of us who are condemned. Forgive this... And, according to Your great mercy as the Good God Who loves mankind, be merciful and forgive all those who are here present and who have touched her. For You alone have the power to remit sins and transgressions, through the prayers of Your Most-pure Mother and of all the Saints . . . (Book of Needs, pp. 6-7).

M.

Gwendolyn · Aug 18, 2008

Well, regardless of the rest of the issue being discussed.....

BTB, if you are mainly hoping to delay your period, beginning the pill right now probably wouldn't help that. As your body gets adjusted, you may experience breakthrough bleeding - bleeding like you are on your period, when it is not due to come - and spotting (lighter bleeding). It takes about three cycles for your body to get used to the pill, and settle into an artificial cycle.

mwboldt · Aug 19, 2008

Byzantine Girl said:
So, even if you don't intend to kill a baby, if it happens, then you are guilty of abortion? If I accidentally overdose on my medication, am I guilty of committing suicide? I think intent has to play a part here. Sorry, but this sounds like Catholic guilt!

It seems a more accurate analogy would be: If I die playing Russian roulette, have I committed suicide? The difference being you are knowingly and deliberately putting yourself (or your baby) at risk.

Sorry to pick on you...nothing personal...many things in this thread struck a nerve with me. Having lost one baby to miscarriage and nearly losing another to a birth defect have made me take issues like this a bit more seriously.

Monica child of God 1 · Aug 19, 2008

mwboldt said:
Having lost one baby to miscarriage and nearly losing another to a birth defect have made me take issues like this a bit more seriously.

Me too.

M.

Matrona · Aug 20, 2008

Bride-to-be said:
I went and got a prescription for the pill.

Save your soul and your future children - tear up that prescription and throw it in the trash!

Btw, your fiance's bragging about impregnating you on the wedding night has NOTHING to do with whether you'll get pregnant or not - he has no more control over whether you get pregnant than the kind of sheets you sleep on. But murdering your own children, just because you don't want to deal with them at the moment, is not only a horrible sin, it's also a bad way to begin a marriage.

Periods on Wedding Day and the PILL

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