What's the truth about abortion?

katallasso · Aug 11, 2008

In a recent thread "Help! I'am a heathen." Tamam made the comment "To me the truth of abortion is if anyone willfully stops the beating of a human heart it is murder." Tell me how this statement can be refuted?

Kat

Evergreen48 · Aug 12, 2008

katallasso said:
In a recent thread "Help! I'am a heathen." Tamam made the comment "To me the truth of abortion is if anyone willfully stops the beating of a human heart it is murder." Tell me how this statement can be refuted?

Kat

I don't think the answer to this is as simple as it might seem to be for us 'pro-lifers' Kat, as there is no heart beat until about the 18th or 19th day after conception. And then there are abortions which are therapeudic in nature. All in all I would say that it depends on the motive in the heart of the mother. If she ends the life for selfish reasons, then I believe it is murder, whether it is ended before the 18th day or afterwards.

superwimp · Aug 12, 2008

katallasso said:
In a recent thread "Help! I'am a heathen." Tamam made the comment "To me the truth of abortion is if anyone willfully stops the beating of a human heart it is murder." Tell me how this statement can be refuted?

Kat

Hello katallasso,

murder = unlawful premeditated killing of a human being by a human being.
human being = a man, woman, or child of the species Homo sapiens.

No. the only way it could be considered murder is if one redefines words based on one's agenda.

I haven't read the heathen thread so i don't know what point he/she was attempting to make. As a general rule abortion isn't a good thing. Some people have the mindset that making something illegal will solve all problems. Some people see the solution to be providing help to unwed mothers, and some see the solution to be making a law.

Bananna · Aug 13, 2008

katallasso said:
In a recent thread "Help! I'am a heathen." Tamam made the comment "To me the truth of abortion is if anyone willfully stops the beating of a human heart it is murder." Tell me how this statement can be refuted?

Kat

to willfully stop the beating of a heart is to kill

To kill the innocent without cause is to murder or manslaughter...

In Jewish law the whole person and whole family are considered Spiritually, physically, emotionally and in health.

for a lawful abortion to take place the Spiritual authority must make a judgement as to the cost of carrying the child to term on the mother and family. A Rabbi may sanction an abortion and it would be considered a necessary loss of life.

Such cases are complicated and personal. Most would favor the killing of a etopic pregnancy fetus because the sooner the child dies the more likely the mother will live. To kill to save a life or many lives is permitted.

Climbers may have a code of cutting the line to save some lives. It is killing but it is not murder.

I may not always agree with the lines people draw to excuse their decisions, but I will let God be the judge.

JMO
bananna

katallasso · Aug 17, 2008

Granted, there are some very strong arguments here. But think about it. When you get down to brass tacks, you have the beating heart of an emerging individual. When that heart is willfully stopped, what is it? Is it as bannana says a "killing"? Is there a difference?

Kat

Evergreen48 · Aug 17, 2008

katallasso said:
Granted, there are some very strong arguments here. But think about it. When you get down to brass tacks, you have the beating heart of an emerging individual. When that heart is willfully stopped, what is it? Is it as bannana says a "killing"? Is there a difference?

Kat

I believe it depends on the motive within the heart of the person who is responsible for the stopping of the heart as to whether it is murder or killing. For instance, if you kill someone who will surely kill you, or yours, if you don't, I believe that is killing, not murder.

superwimp · Aug 18, 2008

Hello,

In order to effectively communicate we have to have a common understanding of what words mean. Murder is a word. It should have a common meaning when we discuss it.

armothe · Aug 19, 2008

Bananna said:
In Jewish law the whole person and whole family are considered Spiritually, physically, emotionally and in health.

Very True

Keep in mind - in the days of our Hebrew forefathers, a fetus does not carry the value of a full human life. It is considered a partial and potential life thus not open to murder or legal ruling, rather moral. The thought here is that the fetus has not yet taken the self-sustaining ruach (breath) needed to survive, not necessarily a beating heart.

Of course in this day and age with the technology available to us, the matter isn't as cut-n-dry.

-A

Restin · Aug 30, 2008

katallasso said:
...."To me the truth of abortion is if anyone willfully stops the beating of a human heart it is murder." Tell me how this statement can be refuted?

There was a time when I thought strongly this way. Aproximately 10 years ago, there was much interest in the USA re: changing laws dealing with 'abortion'. My 16 year old daughter said this:

'If my mom did not love me, I would have rather been the product of abortion. I would not want to be alive today!' I had to stop and think!

Is there more than one way to kill someone, or something?

Think about it!
Restin

goodnewsinc · Aug 31, 2008

Death has no sting!

Deuteronomy 32:39. See now that I, even I, am he, and there is no god with me: I kill, and I make alive; I wound, and I heal: neither is there any that can deliver out of my hand. 40. For I lift up my hand to heaven, and say, I live for ever.

Revelation 9:6. And in those days shall men seek death, and shall not find it; and shall desire to die, and death shall flee from them.

Hosea 13:14. I will ransom them from the power of the grave; I will redeem them from death: O death, I will be thy plagues; O grave, I will be thy destruction: repentance shall be hid from mine eyes.

Ecclesiastes 12:7. Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it.

Ecclesiastes 4:2. Wherefore I praised the dead which are already dead more than the living which are yet alive. 3. Yea, better is he than both they, which hath not yet been, who hath not seen the evil work that is done under the sun.

Luke 20:36. Neither can they die any more: for they are equal unto the angels; and are the children of God, being the children of the resurrection. 37. Now that the dead are raised, even Moses shewed at the bush, when he calleth the Lord the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob. 38. For he is not a God of the dead, but of the living: for all live unto him.

There is no such thing as a "dead" man or fetus! Can you believe Jesus? Men will have to cut off their heads and their blind thoughts and replace them with our true Head, namely God Himself and His thoughts and perspective! The one with the "keys of death and hell" has certainly testified to YOU:

Neither can they die any more: for they are equal unto the angels; and are the children of God, being the children of the resurrection. for all live unto him.

Abortions are fast "circumcisions" that help God regain His children rather quickly! As you know "flesh and blood cannot inherit the Kingdom of Heaven"! Who is guilty of murder and killing? Did not the Most High say this: "I kill, and I make alive; I wound, and I heal: neither is there any that can deliver out of my hand. 40. For I lift up my hand to heaven, and say, I live for ever". Are not men created in His likeness?! All babies and all men are created immortal like their Father, and their spirits cannot die! That is part of the GLORY all men are born with, our spiritual DNA heritage. And most men are IGNORANT about our glory and heritage! Let the blind lead the blind! They will be coughing and sneezing from dust in the ditch! Can you say, "Amen"?!

John,
GOOD NEWS, Inc.

Restin · Aug 31, 2008

goodnewsinc said:
Luke 20:36. Neither can they die any more: for they are equal unto the angels; and are the children of God, being the children of the resurrection. 37. Now that the dead are raised, even Moses shewed at the bush, when he calleth the Lord the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob. 38. For he is not a God of the dead, but of the living: for all live unto him.

These verses are with condition. Luke 20:35 But they which shall be accounted worthy to obtain that world, and the resurrection from the dead, neither marry, nor are given in marriage:KJV

There is no such thing as a "dead" man or fetus!

Seems this needs clarification. Romans 6:7 For he that is dead is freed from sin. 8 Now if we be dead with Christ, we believe that we shall also live with him: KJV

Our life in the flesh is a mixture of being 'dead' and 'alive' at the same time!

Men will have to cut off their heads and their blind thoughts and replace them with our true Head, namely God Himself and His thoughts and perspective!

In my flesh, I can do nothing good - God does something better apart from me, but IN and FOR ME!

Restin

katallasso · Sep 1, 2008

Restin said:
There was a time when I thought strongly this way. Aproximately 10 years ago, there was much interest in the USA re: changing laws dealing with 'abortion'. My 16 year old daughter said this:

'If my mom did not love me, I would have rather been the product of abortion. I would not want to be alive today!' I had to stop and think!

Is there more than one way to kill someone, or something?

Think about it!
Restin

My mother does not love me. Has told me she hated me and has acted very much in that vein my whole life. But would I have not wanted to be born? No...others have loved me. I have married and had children and a wonderful life. So for me this argument is irrelevent.

Kat

katallasso · Sep 1, 2008

armothe said:
Very True

Keep in mind - in the days of our Hebrew forefathers, a fetus does not carry the value of a full human life. It is considered a partial and potential life thus not open to murder or legal ruling, rather moral. The thought here is that the fetus has not yet taken the self-sustaining ruach (breath) needed to survive, not necessarily a beating heart.

Of course in this day and age with the technology available to us, the matter isn't as cut-n-dry.

-A

Where is this in scripture? These scriptures seem to say otherwise.

"Your hands shaped me and made me. Will you now turn and destroy me? Remember that you molded me like clay. Will you now turn me to dust again? Did you not pour me out like milk ... and knit me together with bones and sinews? You gave me life and showed me kindness, and in your providence watched over my spirit" (Job 10:8-12 NIV).
"Before I was born the LORD called me; from my birth he has made mention of my name...and now the LORD says--he who formed me in the womb to be his servant..." (Isaiah 49:1, 5).
"The word of the LORD came to me, saying, Before I formed you in the womb I knew you, before you were born I set you apart; I appointed you as a prophet to the nations" (Jeremiah 1:4-5).
In the following passages we note that personality is ascribed to the unborn.
"For you created my inmost being; you knit me together in my mother's womb. I praise you because I am fearfully and wonderfully made; your works are wonderful, I know that fully well. My frame was not hidden from you when I was made in the secret place. When I was woven together in the depths of the earth, your eyes saw my unformed body. All the days ordained for me were written in your book before one of them came to be" (Psalm 139:13-16).
"Sons are a heritage from the LORD, children a reward from him" (Psalm 127:3).
Exodus 21:22-25 relates how Israel was to judge a circumstance relating to the death of the unborn:
"If men who are fighting hit a pregnant woman and she gives birth prematurely but there is no serious injury, the offender must be fined whatever the woman's husband demands and the court allows. But if there is serious injury, you are to take life for life, eye for eye, tooth for tooth, hand for hand, foot for foot, wound for wound, bruise for bruise."
All of the latter deals with unintentional hurt that comes to a pregnant woman; how much more will divine penalty come upon those who intentionally discard the fetus? The Gospel of Luke ascribes personality to the fetus within Elizabeth:
"When Elizabeth heard Mary's greeting, the baby leaped in her womb, and Elizabeth was filled with the Holy Spirit... As soon as the sound of your greeting reached my ears, the baby in my womb leaped for joy" (1:41, 44).
Mere tissue does not leap for joy; only personhood leaps for joy. The Bible regards the fetus as having personality. In Galatians, Paul speaks of himself as a person while still in his mother's womb, but more a person consecrated by God for a holy mission (compare Jeremiah 1:5 for the same accent):
"But when God, who set me apart from birth, and called me by his grace, was pleased to reveal his Son in me so that I might preach him among the Gentiles..." (Gal. 1: 15-16).

Kat

Evergreen48 · Sep 1, 2008

katallasso said:
Where is this in scripture? These scriptures seem to say otherwise.

"Your hands shaped me and made me. Will you now turn and destroy me? Remember that you molded me like clay. Will you now turn me to dust again? Did you not pour me out like milk ... and knit me together with bones and sinews? You gave me life and showed me kindness, and in your providence watched over my spirit" (Job 10:8-12 NIV).
"Before I was born the LORD called me; from my birth he has made mention of my name...and now the LORD says--he who formed me in the womb to be his servant..." (Isaiah 49:1, 5).
"The word of the LORD came to me, saying, Before I formed you in the womb I knew you, before you were born I set you apart; I appointed you as a prophet to the nations" (Jeremiah 1:4-5).
In the following passages we note that personality is ascribed to the unborn.
"For you created my inmost being; you knit me together in my mother's womb. I praise you because I am fearfully and wonderfully made; your works are wonderful, I know that fully well. My frame was not hidden from you when I was made in the secret place. When I was woven together in the depths of the earth, your eyes saw my unformed body. All the days ordained for me were written in your book before one of them came to be" (Psalm 139:13-16).
"Sons are a heritage from the LORD, children a reward from him" (Psalm 127:3).
Exodus 21:22-25 relates how Israel was to judge a circumstance relating to the death of the unborn:
"If men who are fighting hit a pregnant woman and she gives birth prematurely but there is no serious injury, the offender must be fined whatever the woman's husband demands and the court allows. But if there is serious injury, you are to take life for life, eye for eye, tooth for tooth, hand for hand, foot for foot, wound for wound, bruise for bruise."
All of the latter deals with unintentional hurt that comes to a pregnant woman; how much more will divine penalty come upon those who intentionally discard the fetus? The Gospel of Luke ascribes personality to the fetus within Elizabeth:
"When Elizabeth heard Mary's greeting, the baby leaped in her womb, and Elizabeth was filled with the Holy Spirit... As soon as the sound of your greeting reached my ears, the baby in my womb leaped for joy" (1:41, 44).
Mere tissue does not leap for joy; only personhood leaps for joy. The Bible regards the fetus as having personality. In Galatians, Paul speaks of himself as a person while still in his mother's womb, but more a person consecrated by God for a holy mission (compare Jeremiah 1:5 for the same accent):
"But when God, who set me apart from birth, and called me by his grace, was pleased to reveal his Son in me so that I might preach him among the Gentiles..." (Gal. 1: 15-16).

Kat

Restin · Sep 1, 2008

katallasso said:
All the days ordained for me were written in your book before one of them came to be" (Psalm 139:13-16).
Kat

Basing the fact that the scripture is true....

Then, no-one is able to 'die' by any method, abortion or otherwise, before those 'days' that are 'written' in the book of God have been completed. For it to be otherwise, would make God out a liar!

Note: I do appreciate all the text Kat gave in the above post!

Ret

Evergreen48 · Sep 1, 2008

Restin said:
Basing the fact that the scripture is true....

Then, no-one is able to 'die' by any method, abortion or otherwise, before those 'days' that are 'written' in the book of God have been completed. For it to be otherwise, would make God out a liar!

Yes, thats very true, Restin. But because God has already fixed the number of days that you will live, does not mean that He approves of the cause of your death.

"Woe unto the world because of offences! for it must needs be that offences come; but woe to that man by whom the offence cometh!" (Matthew 18:6-7)

Restin · Sep 1, 2008

Evergreen48 said:
"Woe unto the world because of offences! for it must needs be that offences come; but woe to that man by whom the offence cometh!" (Matthew 18:6-7)

Good point...'woe to that may by whom the offence cometh'

Restin

EvangelicalChristian · Sep 1, 2008

katallasso said:
In a recent thread "Help! I'am a heathen." Tamam made the comment "To me the truth of abortion is if anyone willfully stops the beating of a human heart it is murder." Tell me how this statement can be refuted?

Kat

Why refute it?

intrepid · Sep 14, 2008

Murder, most foul.

Kerwin · Sep 16, 2008

Superwimp said:
murder = unlawful premeditated killing of a human being by a human being.
human being = a man, woman, or child of the species Homo sapiens.

No. the only way it could be considered murder is if one redefines words based on one's agenda.

And your second premise is unsound for two reasons. First a child in his or her mothers womb is still a child. Read the King James Version and you will see being pregnant was referred to as being with child over three centuries ago before any political bias of the recent era came to be. Second biologically speaking a homo sapient from the state of life known as a zygote and onward is a human being. Trying to redefine that is deceptive though I am not sure how zealously holding to a false definition would be labeled.

Still the Christian point is love your neighbor as yourselff and so the question is do you want to be killed by your doctor at your mothers request. If your answer is yes then you have a self destructive wish.

What's the truth about abortion?

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