Folks note
RFLOL.......................Note Folks...............LOLOLOL
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Folks note
Folks note the effort to change the subject.
LOL.
that's it folks!
Van said:Did Noah find "grace" or "favor." Favor, according to the NASB, but other translations use grace, such as the KJV or the NKJV, or YLT. The Hebrew word is translated both as grace and favor by the KJV and so the context must be used to discern which way to translate the Hebrew word. And in the opinion of the modern translators, in Genesis 6:8, the word should be translated as favor. This is how the NIV, NASB, ESV, and HCSB translate the word in Genesis 6:8.
Calvinism is so flimsy a premise it must be supported by translation shopping to make its points. Why would Calvinists "favor" translating the word as grace? Because that would support the fiction that God did not find him a righteous man, but made him righteous using irresistible grace. But that idea is without merit. And since Noah did find favor because of his character, then the Calvinist premise that Genesis 6:5 phrase "every intent of the thoughts of the heart are continuously evil" means fallen men are unable to seek after God and strive to obey him is false.
Folks when you see the phrase "found favor (or grace) in the sight or eyes of God or a person" the idea is something in the characteristics of the person looks good or favorable to the other. In our case Noah was a righteous man and thus found favor in the eyes of God.
Bottom line, Total Spiritual Inability is not supported by Genesis 6:5 in light of Genesis 6:8.
And just a little reminder of the correct exegesis of the text under discussionJust a little reminder of what the topic of this thread is.
Gods grace is mans only hope.
One last thing we see in verse 8 before we close. The grace of God here towards one man becomes the salvation of humanity. Here we see Gods grace is the only hope. Genesis 6, verse 8, is the first occurrence of the word grace in the Bible. But Noah found favor. But Noah found grace in the eyes of the Lord. What does grace mean? Unmerited, divine favor in spite of positive demerit.
Hi Eric. I'm not disputing the fact that names were written in the Lamb's book before the foundation of the world. I'm simply disputing when the OT saints went to Heaven.What you are missing here is that it is the Lamb's book and He wrote it from the foundation of the world.
I don't necessarily equate Moses and Elijah showing up at the transfiguration as the same as them being in Heaven. The text doesn't attest to where they came from and even calls it a 'vision'.I believe it was presented to you earlier Moses and Elijah at the transfiguration before the cross
There is a lot of speculation on exactly where Enoch and Elijah went in these passages, but such has been discussed in other topics in other forums.and throw in Enoch for good measure, it is said he was translated by God Hebrews 11:5. We have the same kind of language being used of us in Colossians 1:13 "Who hath delivered us from the power of darkness, and hath translated us into the kingdom of his dear Son:". 2 Kings 2:11 "And it came to pass, as they still went on, and talked, that, behold, there appeared a chariot of fire, and horses of fire, and parted them both asunder; and Elijah went up by a whirlwind into heaven."
I understand this is the interpretation in reformed circles, but it is not the most accepted understanding of this passage. At the Lord's Supper Christ tells his disciples that He was going to prepare a place for them. This seems to indicate that such a place for the righteous in Heaven did not exist previously. "that where I am, there ye may be also". This statement was quite a shock to a Jew's ears in those days!It seems as though your understanding of John 3:13 is a bit askew. In fact, the verse indicates that the only way one from the Old Testament can go to Heaven is to be in Christ IE: born again. Because He is the only one that comes down from and goes up to heaven.
That is a new one for me Armothe, does Reformed Theology actually teach the OT saints were "in Christ." I know that is the view of Hyper Calvinists, but is that mainstream. So when Jesus says, no one has gone up to heaven, they say this means "no one has gone up to heaven except all the OT saints." LOL
Neither is there salvation in any other: for there is none other name under heaven given among men, whereby we must be saved. Acts 4:12In fact, the verse indicates that the only way one from the Old Testament can go to Heaven is to be in Christ IE: born again.
Amen. Jesus said 'No one comes to the Father except through me'
So when Jesus says, no one has gone up to heaven, they say this means "no one has gone up to heaven except all the OT saints." LOL
So when Elijah went up in the chariot, he went to Mars.
What I personally believe is of no consequence. What matters here is the position that the OT saints were not born again upon physical death.Let me make this simple for you. If I'm understanding you correctly, that you don't believe Old Testament saints were born again. Why did Jesus expect that Nicodemus should know about being born again as a result of being a master of Israel? That is, he should have known subsequent to Jesus telling him, which the question in verse 10 implies.
No. There is nothing in the text alluding to such.armothe said:This probably caused the light to turn on in Nicodemus's brain
No! Again there isn't any indication from the text to support that Nicodemus understood what Jesus was teaching; in fact, it's just the opposite. You also misquote the text, John 3:9 "Nicodemus answered and said unto him, How can these things be?" not "how will this happen" and Jesus answers in verse 10 "Art thou a master of Israel, and knowest not these things?". If Nicodemus is beginning to understand then why does Jesus say that he doesn't in His answer?armothe said:Now that Nicodemus better understood what Jesus meant he asks "How will this happen"?
In order to see it one must be born again. In order to suffer the reproach of Christ one must be in Christ having been born again. Moses suffered the reproach of Christ having been born again. Just because Moses didn't identify it in the terminology of born again doesn't change anything.armothe said:And that in order to do see it, the Son of Man must be lifted up
Well, the saints understood, they were born again.armothe said:All of the OT prophets spoke of such a day but I'm guessing the Jewish national pride and misunderstanding of the spiritual nature of the Kingdom of God blinded them from revealing the true meanings behind the prophecies.
"How can these things be?" is akin to saying "How is this possible?". The literal Greek says:No. There is nothing in the text alluding to such. You also misquote the text, John 3:9 "Nicodemus answered and said unto him, How can these things be?" not "how will this happen" and Jesus answers in verse 10 "Art thou a master of Israel, and knowest not these things?". If Nicodemus is beginning to understand then why does Jesus say that he doesn't in His answer?
What Jesus expected Nicodemus to understand was regarding the upcoming release of the Spirit. Rather, if Jesus expected him to understand what it meant to be 'born again' He would have retorted in verse 5 instead of 10.This leads me back to my original question/point. Why did Jesus expect that a spiritual leader of Israel should understand Him about being born again?