Did Noah find favor or grace?
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In fact, the verse indicates that the only way one from the Old Testament can go to Heaven is to be in Christ IE: born again.
Amen. Jesus said 'No one comes to the Father except through me'
Amen. Jesus said 'No one comes to the Father except through me'
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Hey guys, why were the names written from the foundation of the earth, rather than before the foundation of the earth? 
When were the names written, anytime after creation but not before creation. When are we enrolled in heaven, when we join the general assembly, when we are baptized into the body of Christ. Therefore no ones name was enrolled in the Lamb's book of life until after they were baptized into Christ's death. Therefore, we are enrolled during our lifetimes, whenever our life occurred subsequent to Christ's death on the cross. The OT saints were enrolled when they were led out of captivity, because no one entered heaven before Christ died.
When were the names written, anytime after creation but not before creation. When are we enrolled in heaven, when we join the general assembly, when we are baptized into the body of Christ. Therefore no ones name was enrolled in the Lamb's book of life until after they were baptized into Christ's death. Therefore, we are enrolled during our lifetimes, whenever our life occurred subsequent to Christ's death on the cross. The OT saints were enrolled when they were led out of captivity, because no one entered heaven before Christ died.
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oworm
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And just a little reminder of the correct exegesis of the text under discussion
J. Ligon Duncan, III Adjunct Professor of Theology RTS Jackson.
Furman University, B.A.
Covenant Theological Seminary, M.Div., M.A.
University of Edinburgh, Ph.D.
Full sermon http://www.fpcjackson.org/resources/sermons/genesis/genesis_vols%201and2/09aGenesis.htm
O. Palmer Robertson (Th.D., Union Theological Seminary) principal and director of African Bible College in Uganda and adjunct professor of Old Testament at Knox Theological Seminary.
"Although Genesis 6:9 affirms that Noah was a "righteous man" , structural considerations characteristic of the book of Genesis forbid the conclusion that Noah received grace because of a previously existing righteousness. The phrase "these are the generations of....." which begins 6:9 occurs 10 times in Genesis. Each time the phrase indicates the beginning of another major section of the book.. This phrase decisively separates the statement that "Noah found grace" from the affirmation that Noah was a righteous man. God's grace to Noah did not appear because of the mans righteousness,but because of the particularity of God's program of redemption.
The principle of particularity as seen in God's favor toward Noah represents an early manifestation of a theme which continues throughout the covenant of redemption"
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LOL, the so-called "correct exegesis" does not pass the smell test. First a character can be introduced in one section of a book and described in a following section of a book. The idea that there is some barrier that precludes this is irrational nonsense, not "correct exegesis." So much for O. Palmer Robertson's offering.
Next, we have the repeated assertion that found favor means given grace! Words have meanings. I found 27 examples of the idiom "found favor in the eyes of" or "found favor in the sight of" another in the NASB version of the Old Testament. In every case, the idea is some characteristic or attribute of a person was found favorable or acceptable to the other. This is the correct exegesis. The new testament tells us when Noah obtained approval by faith, just read Hebrews 11:7. The effort to apply that grace, given after God told Noah to build the Ark, to this passage does not pass the smell test.
Next, we have the repeated assertion that found favor means given grace! Words have meanings. I found 27 examples of the idiom "found favor in the eyes of" or "found favor in the sight of" another in the NASB version of the Old Testament. In every case, the idea is some characteristic or attribute of a person was found favorable or acceptable to the other. This is the correct exegesis. The new testament tells us when Noah obtained approval by faith, just read Hebrews 11:7. The effort to apply that grace, given after God told Noah to build the Ark, to this passage does not pass the smell test.
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armothe
Living in HIS kingdom...
Hi Eric. I'm not disputing the fact that names were written in the Lamb's book before the foundation of the world. I'm simply disputing when the OT saints went to Heaven.
I don't necessarily equate Moses and Elijah showing up at the transfiguration as the same as them being in Heaven. The text doesn't attest to where they came from and even calls it a 'vision'.
There is a lot of speculation on exactly where Enoch and Elijah went in these passages, but such has been discussed in other topics in other forums.
For the sake of this discussion I think its important to note that the concept of a Jew actually being with God in eternity was a foreign concept, as they believed that God dwelt in the Tabernacle / Temple.
Something else to note is that it's popular belief neither of these saints saw physical death. Hades/Sheol was the realm of the dead, and my dispute is where OT saints went when they died.
I understand this is the interpretation in reformed circles, but it is not the most accepted understanding of this passage. At the Lord's Supper Christ tells his disciples that He was going to prepare a place for them. This seems to indicate that such a place for the righteous in Heaven did not exist previously. "that where I am, there ye may be also". This statement was quite a shock to a Jew's ears in those days!
David, Job, Isaiah, Samuel, Jacob, Jonah - all wrote about their bodies going down to Sheol; so I'm not quick to assume that these OT Saints went to Heaven upon physical death.
-A
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That is a new one for me Armothe, does Reformed Theology actually teach the OT saints were "in Christ." I know that is the view of Hyper Calvinists, but is that mainstream. So when Jesus says, no one has gone up to heaven, they say this means "no one has gone up to heaven except all the OT saints." LOL
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armothe
John 3:10
"Jesus answered and said unto him, Art thou a master of Israel, and knowest not these things?"
Let me make this simple for you. If I'm understanding you correctly, that you don't believe Old Testament saints were born again.
Why did Jesus expect that Nicodemus should know about being born again as a result of being a master of Israel? That is, he should have known subsequent to Jesus telling him, which the question in verse 10 implies.
You need to address this first.
In peace
Eric_C
John 3:10
"Jesus answered and said unto him, Art thou a master of Israel, and knowest not these things?"
Let me make this simple for you. If I'm understanding you correctly, that you don't believe Old Testament saints were born again.
Why did Jesus expect that Nicodemus should know about being born again as a result of being a master of Israel? That is, he should have known subsequent to Jesus telling him, which the question in verse 10 implies.
You need to address this first.
In peace
Eric_C
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Neither is there salvation in any other: for there is none other name under heaven given among men, whereby we must be saved. Acts 4:12
Double Amen!
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RTE (Road to Emmaus)
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So when Jesus says, no one has gone up to heaven, they say this means "no one has gone up to heaven except all the OT saints." LOL
So when Elijah went up in the chariot, he went to Mars.
So when Elijah went up in the chariot, he went to Mars.
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armothe
Living in HIS kingdom...
The Hebrews did not have a clear understanding of the universe as we have today - they understood 'heaven' as three parts:
1) The earth's atmosphere
2) Outer Space
3) The throne of YHWH
One explanation is that Elijah was simply taken up into the sky and transported elsewhere to continue his prophesying, leaving Elisha and his men in Judah to continue God's work in that particular region.
A letter (2 Chron 21) from Elijah was received by the Jehoram (son of Jehosophat) king of Judah after Elijah was lifted to the heavens.
Even the 50 men who witnessed the even were concerned for Elijah's safety and asked permission to go look for Elijah in case the chariot left him stranded on a mountain or in a valley (2 Kings 2:16).
Thus, the belief is that God had other plans for Elijah and simply carried him off to continue his work elsewhere.
-A
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Thanks Armothe, that explains it clearly in just a few words.
"No one has ascended into heaven, but He who descended from heaven, even the Son of Man." So rather than actually meaning no human, not even the OT saints, have ascended into heaven, it means all the OT saints were already in Christ so they descended with the Son of Man. Got it. They were spiritually baptized into Christ's death before Christ died, time and sequence mean nothing, and they did indeed receive the promise apart from those saved under the New Covenant. The promise of Hebrews 11:39-40 must be a different promise.
"No one has ascended into heaven, but He who descended from heaven, even the Son of Man." So rather than actually meaning no human, not even the OT saints, have ascended into heaven, it means all the OT saints were already in Christ so they descended with the Son of Man. Got it. They were spiritually baptized into Christ's death before Christ died, time and sequence mean nothing, and they did indeed receive the promise apart from those saved under the New Covenant. The promise of Hebrews 11:39-40 must be a different promise.
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armothe
Living in HIS kingdom...
What I personally believe is of no consequence. What matters here is the position that the OT saints were not born again upon physical death.
For Nicodemus and the other Jews the promise of Salvation was to come through the seed of Abraham. They took this to mean lineage. Being 'born again' was a completely foreign idea to the Jews. The aramaic here is:
mitiled min dresh - translated 'born from the head/crown'.
If any of you have had the pleasure of witnessing childbirth most occur with the head/crown being pushed out of the canal first. This is what prompted Nicodemus to ask:
"How is a man able to be born, being old? is he able into the womb of his mother a second time to enter, and to be born?"
It is quite obvious that Nicodemus was bewildered by Jesus's use of this idiom. Indeed Jesus was talking about being born from the head/crown but it was the head/crown - or authority - of the Sprit of God He was speaking of. This is what you would consider regeneration.
To make things clearer Jesus elaborates by saying that one has to be born of the spirit to see the Kingdom of God. This probably caused the light to turn on in Nicodemus's brain as he was familiar with Ezekiel 36:24-28:
Then I will sprinkle clean water on you,
and you shall be clean;
I will cleanse you from all your filthiness
and from all your idols.
I will give you a new heart
and put a new spirit within you;
I will take he heart of stone out of your flesh
and give you a heart of FLESH.
I will put My spirit within you
and cause you to walk in My statutes,
and you will keep My judgements and do them.
Then you shall dwell in the Land that I gave to you fathers;
you shall be my people, and I will be your God.
Now that Nicodemus better understood what Jesus meant he asks "How will this happen"? Jesus goes on to say that nobody has seen the Kingdom except the Son of Man. And that in order to do see it, the Son of Man must be lifted up - referring to his future sacrifice on the cross - so that anyone who believes in Him will have eternal life.
All of the OT prophets spoke of such a day but I'm guessing the Jewish national pride and misunderstanding of the spiritual nature of the Kingdom of God blinded them from revealing the true meanings behind the prophecies.
-A
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No. There is nothing in the text alluding to such.armothe said:
No! Again there isn't any indication from the text to support that Nicodemus understood what Jesus was teaching; in fact, it's just the opposite. You also misquote the text, John 3:9 "Nicodemus answered and said unto him, How can these things be?" not "how will this happen" and Jesus answers in verse 10 "Art thou a master of Israel, and knowest not these things?". If Nicodemus is beginning to understand then why does Jesus say that he doesn't in His answer?armothe said:
This leads me back to my original question/point.
Why did Jesus expect that a spiritual leader of Israel should understand Him about being born again?
You've danced all around the question but have yet to answer it. You have explained why you think they didn't understand, but that is not the question I'm asking. If Old Testament saints aren't saved by being born again then why did Jesus expect Nicodemus to understand Him about it?
In order to see it one must be born again. In order to suffer the reproach of Christ one must be in Christ having been born again. Moses suffered the reproach of Christ having been born again. Just because Moses didn't identify it in the terminology of born again doesn't change anything.armothe said:
Well, the saints understood, they were born again.armothe said:
In peace
Eric_C
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armothe
Living in HIS kingdom...
"How can these things be?" is akin to saying "How is this possible?". The literal Greek says:
"Answered Nicodemus and said to him: 'it how able this be brought to pass (happen)?"
To me it appears quite obvious that Nicodemus moved passed his initial ignorance regarding being 'born again' and is now inquiring towards Jesus as to exactly how the Spirit will be made manifest in the upcoming days.
Jesus then proceeds to admonish him for not knowing how this will happen and proceeds to explain to him exactly how it will occur (John 3:16).
What Jesus expected Nicodemus to understand was regarding the upcoming release of the Spirit. Rather, if Jesus expected him to understand what it meant to be 'born again' He would have retorted in verse 5 instead of 10.
The term 'born again' isn't found anywhere in the OT or Talmud so how on earth could you expect any teacher of Israel to know what it meant? The term has been highly romanticized in western culture over the past 75 yrs and gravely misunderstood. Nicodemus most certainly wouldn't have had any idea what this meant, other than a possible reference to new prostelytes being reborn as converts to Judiasm.
-A
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